Lucario Frame Trap Compendium

[B.A.M.]

Lucario Frame Trap Compendium​

Introduction​

Lucarios im trying to get a thread in each character boards that hold the majority of their frame traps. I think it will aid people in making the most out their punishments. It will help the whole pressure game that lacking in Brawl, better.

So can we all try to list all the common frame traps used with Lucario? Im sure newcomers to the character would love to have one thread with this info in one place. So lets all try to figure out some good ones.



Frame Traps

[COLLAPSE="Definition"]A set of two actions that due to the first action's cooldown, shield stun, range or a combination of these sorts punishes majority of defensive options present.[/COLLAPSE]

Aerial Frame Traps:

It goes without saying that Lucario is a beast in terms of aerial frame traps; no other character imo can get as much guaranteed damage of a frame trap than him. So that being said this Section will just list the frame traps and wont necessarily have an indepth analysis on one particular trap unless really needed (or one of you does a write up on one).

Fair:

If you know anything about lucario u know this move is amazing. It combos into itself and other aerials, its got a nice hitbox all around, and when aura builds up, the already fairly safe move (stupid pun) becomes even safer due to greater shield stun being present.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Nair: Move combos from Fair as well making it an auto frame trap lol ( lucario has a ton of these). If you can get an opponent at low percents in the air with a nair you can string into a myriad of other things so easily; my personal favorite being buffer sh fair>nair x n. Theres little to nothing an opponent can do once caught in sh range with this frame trap.

Dair: Awesome frame trap, as well as a nice block string due to its shield poking properties.

Fair: at SH this is a foolish endeavor unless you really cant reach your opponent. it will work, but u wont have any solid follow ups. higher in the air however, this comes a great frame trap as the move as stated before easily combos into itself and other aerials (ex:fair>DJ fair> dair.)
[/COLLAPSE]


Uair:

Uair has a great disjoint and when aura buffed can be quite the kill move. It has a hitbox that extends to lucarios tail. Definitely great for juggles.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Nair: the hitbox is good, so its probably more likely to hit than anything. Unfortunately no combos due to hits long duration.

Dair: Always a solid option; move does good damage and can get ppl offstage.

Fair: this one is my favorite. Why? Its freakin fair. Free combo is free. Please try to use this if possible.[/COLLAPSE]

Nair

Nair sometimes auto frame traps in itself due to the duration of the move. The fact that it chains easily WITHOUT it hitting meaty, in the case that it does during it auto frame trapping means you just got a crap ton of advantage. Someone needs to find out how much there is during this scenario.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]reverse utilt: if you are coming at someone descending from FH height, its sometimes nice to through out this frame trap. If u catch the nair then combo city, if not then u get that beautiful arc of utilt covering a good chunk of landing space ( no b-reverse for you). reversing it just ups your chances on catching someone with a good ff AD. [/COLLAPSE]

Option Selects​

[COLLAPSE="Definition"]An Option Select is a joystick or button input which functions as multiple possible actions simultaneously, letting the game engine decide the best counter to a situation. Specific instances allow only certain moves to come out, so you can worry less about your opponents options, and focus more on your own offense.[/COLLAPSE]

I am going to make a video later detailing what option selects are good for lucario and why. For now I will leave this video of SF detailing OS and my blog on AIB regarding them.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=125939


There are a couple Shield OS that are potentially good for Lucario:

Grab^Roll OS:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]There are a multitude of grab^Roll OS. the ones we will discuss are:
ISSDI forward x 1 grab^Froll OS
ISSDI x 1 backwards grab^Broll OS
ISSDI forward x 2 grab^Froll OS

Inputs:
- cstick forward for ISSDI forward x 1 grab or Froll
- cstick backward for ISSDI x 1 backwards grab or Broll
- forward on the analog stick + cstick up (ISSDI forward x 2 grab or Froll)

Why they could be useful:

- Lucario has amazing Rolls
- most people arent just going to stand there while in CQC meaning you are now behind your opponent and can punish a whiff attempt or spotdodge. Its also nice that Lucario's rolls have good distance, allowing him to be at a safe distance frame wise to use his slower than average but solid tilts.

I would definitely love some of our Lucario mains to do some in-depth testing on these and see what they find.[/COLLAPSE]

Aerial OoS^Roll OS:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]I think these ones have some awesome potential for Lucario as well. We have Aerial OoS^Broll OS and Aerial OoS^Froll.

Input:

-Aerial OoS^Broll OS: rotate the analog stick from back to up (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to input the back on the analog stick then a jump command afterwards) then put in the aerial of your choosing. This must be done quickly.
- Aerial OoS^Froll: rotate the analog stick from forward to up (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to just input the forward and jump command right after) then put in the aerial of your choosing. This must be done quickly.

Why they could be useful:

this allows u to combat tilts/smashes that could be potentially used as anti airs/spacing tools against u. If they attempt to use a grab to thrwat your approach, spotdodge, or roll you either get to punish or you stay relatively safe. Please test these in your friendlies and see what works best for you. Froll for offense and Broll for a safer shield approach.[/COLLAPSE]

Jab OS by FlameWave K:​

all the information in the collapses [ to be edited in later] will assume your opponent is around jab range.

for more information, ask or check out this write-up
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=95600

Offensive

Jab -> Charge Fsmash

Spoiler

Can either let go for slight charge or delay it even more.
Covers Sidestep, and maybe even Forward and Back Roll depending on spacing and positioning
You can also stutterstep back but not forward

Jab -> Aurasphere Charge

Spoiler

Can go into any Aurasphere Cancel
Can Shoot the sphere
Grab
Shield
Sidestep
Jump into air moves
UpB

Jab -> Aurasphere Charge - B reversed

Spoiler

same options as above, just no grabbing and AS shot unless they roll forward or something.

mosty done to hit with the charge hitbox

Jab -> Force Palm

Spoiler

Grabs people out of sidestep/shield after sidestep
sometimes can super armor through moves
FP flame might save you half the time if they buffer their sidesteps

Defensive/Movement

Jab -> Roll Forward

Spoiler

Crosses Up

Jab -> Roll Back

Spoiler

Retreats

Jab -> Shield

Spoiler

shields counterattacks
do any shield option before or after

Jab -> Sidestep

Spoiler

I guessss to avoid grabs

Jab -> Extremespeed

Spoiler

Weird Escape Option?
Want to grab the ledge?
its doubles and you need to edgehog someone? :S

Jab -> Dash

Spoiler

Cross-up
you can pivot grab or jump any time during the dash
or specials too.

Jab -> Short Hop

Spoiler

positioning maybe.
let go of A after you jump do to do aerials
could do specials too I guess.

Jab -> Jump

Spoiler

same thing as short hop you just go higher.

Jab -> Pivot Walk

Spoiler

sillier version of dash
can't trip from this

Jab -> Crouch

Spoiler

to syke them out
can let go of A and dtilt afterwards
if you think they'll hit you downB or shield

to be updated

 

[culexus・wau]

Hi B.A.M

I think I had written a bunch of stuff for jab ones awhile ago.

lemme go seeeeee

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=293084

I don't think theres anything without items we can really do beside these and the shield one that gets us grab or roll [there was something in the Metagame Minute Thread that was about upsmash but like... luc upsmash terrible for anything not directly above him :x]


Theres probably some stuff with can do with items or maybe Aura Sphere Charge though.

maaaaaaaaaaybe.

 

[B.A.M.]

oh im not talking about option selects FlameWave. I was just wanted actual frame traps for lucario. However, i could put option selects for Lucario in this as well. I posted another option select that i think would be good lucario. the aerial^roll OS. Given your aerial speed i think its solid. Also I do believe the usmash^roll can be useful in some situations, against people who like to AD or aerial at the last second, as you get a punish on the aerial ( for some characters) or roll to safety. The fact that AD 90% is coupled with a buffer input in landing scenarios the roll could put u at a safe distance to punish whatever was buffered, whether it was grab, roll, tilt, etc.

In any case I want to get down stuff like, uair<fair frame trap that works on mid ff characters to fast ff characters in the case of some throw or utilt setups. I think its a great frame trap because fair obviously combos into itself and many other things so its a good way to rack up solid damage and potentially get a character offstage.

I also like to use in this scenario a little OS. its a uair<nair ^fair OS. You basically input uair fair then nair in quick succession. I like it because it does one of two things, you either hit the uair and the buffered fair wont come out but the nair will. The reason why i do that is because sometimes that soft hit of uair combos into nair ( i guess you could just do fair as well lol) if you dont get that soft hit, then your opponent is too far for u to reach in mid-high percents (at times, otherwise if i did this OS out of full hop i would be inclined to exchange the nair with a DJ uair) and the nair is irrelevant. If u dont hit the uair then you get your fair to catch the end of the AD and you can continue from there.


EDIT: saw your thread. Mind if I place those OS in the OP?

 

[phi1ny3]

most of lucario's moveset is a frametrap, it's why even if the opponent somehow ADs after an aerial, lucario can continue ignoring it lol.

The most common are ones that force an AD by uair. You can dair or nair the opponent as the come down, or even fast fall -> AS.

almost all of lucario's aerials allow him to ignore AD pretty easily, taking out a lot of guesswork. Same w/ jab, fsmash, ftilt, and usmash (and of course, AS).

FP is almost two-fold, the grab when spotdodged, has the flame which for some odd reason hits the opponent just when his spotdodge ends really reliably (despite lasting only one frame pretty much lol).

 

[culexus・wau]

Thats what I get for being on early in the day without sleep I guess lol.

Go ahead.

What phil said is basically correct. We can kinda autopilot frametrapping on airdodges and the like. :>

 

[B.A.M.]

Hahaha oh i know. I play Lucario too Flame. I havent seen you in awhile though homes haha. I still want to get this thread in order so people can understand how to go about stronger punishments and better strings ( although Lucario already has some bomb strings)

EDIT: Its all good that Lucario has a ton of auto frame trap properties, but its nice to know whats most effective in what position and not just to use somethin cuz u know itll hit cuz ur lucario. Case in point phi1ny3's post. Why mention Uair>nair or dair frame traps and not fair, which would net the most damage by far out of the 3 and has a good hitbox to boot.

Also ground frame traps should be investigated as well. The whole point of this project is to get people discussing what to use and when as well as have a place new players and old can learn a thing or 2. So yes i know theres tons of auto frame traps on Lucario's end. Its still good to know what to use get what i mean?

SO HELP ME OUT FELLOW LUCARIOS!!!! And i really want to dive into more ground frame traps. The ones you put down are definitely good though Flame.

 

[phi1ny3]

fair is harder to set up merely because uair makes you pretty much have to either jump or dodge (especially at higher percents when it becomes almost as powerful as Wario or Bowser's for killpower), fair is doable, but you risk getting "contested", especially against chars like Marth or wolf where you want to continue the juggle.

another readish thing to do, but cool idea to use falling uair after fair, because it continues the juggle and gets good position, it's sorta situational though, usually only happens when you get a FH fair off. You can be stylish and even at low percent catch them with fair near the ledge, uair falling off stage, then try for a double jump aerial (mainly aesthetic, really risky if you drop too low b/c then you're in a bad position )

FF -> utilt is also an underrated cover for trapping dodges, it has a pretty big range, is quick, and pops them back up for more.

uthrow can be a great trap setup, depending on the character you use it against. for big characters, you can often get away w/ pivot grabbing them at low percents, their only option to get out is to jump. You can also try for an AS/fsmash read, or try aerials (all aren't guaranteed mind you). imo this move is more or less useful, the main problem being that uthrow's higher potential comes at really low aura and low percent, when your reads don't hurt as much , and when you get higher in percent, the SDI factor gets bigger (which because there's a secondary hitbox, bypasses the normal rule that throws can't be SDI'd). One of my favorites is strutterstep fsmash or SH dair really quickly.

 

[D. Disciple]

Fair frame traps? Oh boy this is going to be fun.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

NAir can lead to other strings if near the ground. It doesn't autocancel, but I believe the landing lag is +2 frames.

BAir is a super frametrap plus it can autocancel I think.

Ftilt can work too. I love using it to pressure people at high %.

A more advanced frame trap is Air Walk (rising DAir). Out of shield/SDI multihit moves/out of any kind of normal stun or windbox... If someone attacks your shield like Falco's Boost Smash you can shove that momentum in their face and Air Walk on them. Depending on certain situations you can catch them in both hits as you are moving up. Its kind of funny since most people wont know how to DI it.

Another frametrap involves Aura Sphere Charge cancel. If you catch someone in it when they are right above the ground you force landing lag plus AS charge hitstun. DAir/UTilt/Trela combos are good followups. Much more devastating against characters that suffer RCO lag.

 

[B.A.M.]

@ MythTrainerInfinity : Air Walking isnt a frame trap in any sense. Its a punishment. I like the talk about Bair but you need to tell me what options are available from bair frame trapping.

@Ph1lny3

From your own data:

Uair
Hit Box on frame: 10
Hitbox in on frame: 22
IASA: 26

Fair
Hit Box on frame: 7
Hit Box in on:21
Completes on frame: 27

Best AD in the game that starts 1 frame earlier than most:

Air Dodge

3-29 / 39 Metaknight

as far as the frame data is concerned, unless they are ADing 9+2 (uair) frames before you even initiate your fair, even MK cant contest you. I dont understand why you believe you would be getting contested. Marth and Wolf?

4-29 / 49 Wolf

5-30 / 49 Marth

Marth and Wolf have to both AD 20 frames early in order to utilize their 1 frame invincibility to get out of the trap.

Also I love that you discussing things like ff > utilt to catch dodges ( do you mean after baiting them or actually forcing them with an aerial; cuz dependent on that, its a frame trap or not). Also uthrow is definitely a great set up for frame traps. lets talk more about those.

if you uthrow with lucario, what would combo unless they AD or use a frame 1 invincible move?

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah baiting them, it's usually more effective on characters with a higher fallspeed and don't have as heavy a punisher for mistiming (like snake or D3 lol), and pops them back up.

By contesting I mean that to get fair to hit would mean getting closer to them vertically or getting more horizontal spacing for it, which by then the character now has a shot at batting you away instead of having to AD (although this would be excellent after conditioning). The main thing about uair that's so good is that the vertical hitbox is very hard to contest because aerials which are usually the next best mixup against juggles are usually bad at covering underneath (like marth dair) because they don't have enought range or are too laggy.

Out of uthrow, on characters "heavier" than marth at low percents you have utilt. heavier ones you can do a little more stuff. With Fox, Wolf, Captain Falcon, and Ganon (I think I'm missing one more) you can uthrow CG (snake you can too, but they drop a grenade, which means you have to end it earlier).

 

[B.A.M.]

o well im talking about uair>fair frame trap. My bad on the misconception lol. I definitely get u though. Im saying with the usage of that, they fall into fair. Get what i mean?

What are all the guaranteed setups out of uthrow Mr. phi1ny3?

You should PM me. I would love to talk more in depth if you have time homes.

 

[culexus・wau]

Bam is this thread going to be updated and whatnot with double stick inputs and whathaveyou?

I would hella love if luc was capable of a DI up and dair DI OS but thats a pipe dream I believe LOL.

maybe something for hiding a sideB input would be nice from light hitstun

quoting.

if you happen to be in shield stun ull grab; if not you roll. If you have any question on some practical applications PM myself or Delux. If your character has a frame trap compendium made by me as well then you can go ahead and look through as they should be listed.

I'd rather hit you up irl for practical applications