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Lucario Crawl Attack

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Has anyone found a good use for the crawl attack? Personally I just find it to be a nuisance that ruins my attempts to cancel a double team into a down tilt.

Why exactly was it put into lucario in the first place?
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
I seriously haven't found any use for it myself. I also personally find it annoying to use. I'd rather see it gone in all honesty. I can't tell you the number of times I wasted a charge when I tried to DTC into a down tilt.
 

Misuse

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
29
Idk about in 3.6, but in 3.5 if you crouch attacked through someone you could turnaround f smash and it was a good mixup.. That's all I know
 

Akkien

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
46
Location
VE
If worth anything in this discussion: (This is all 3.6 data, by the way)

Down Tilt:
-Active Hitboxes: 5-8
-IASA: 26
Hitboxes: ( 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 )
-Size: 2.5 / 2.5 / 4.25 / 4.25
-Damage: 6 / 6 / 8 / 6
-Angle: 80 / 80 / 285 / 80
-Base Knockback: 35 / 35 / 45 / 35
-Weight Dependent Set Knockback: 0 / 0 / 0 / 0
-Knockback Growth: 100 / 100 / 120 / 100
-SDI Multiplier: x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.0
-Hitlag Multiplier: x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.5 / x1.0
-Shieldstun: 4 / 4 / 5 / 4
-Hitlag: 5 / 5 / 7 / 5

Crawl Tilt:
-Active Hitboxes: 13-22
-IASA: 30
Hitboxes: ( 0 / 1 / 2 / 3 )
-Size: 2.5 / 2.5 / 4.25 / 4.25
-Damage: 9 / 9 / 10 / 9
-Angle: 361 / 361 / 32 / 361
-Base Knockback: 64 / 64 / 0 / 64
-Weight Dependent Set Knockback: 0 / 0 / 149 / 0
-Knockback Growth: 50 / 50 / 60 / 50
-SDI Multiplier: x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.0
-Hitlag Multiplier: x1.0 / x1.0 / x1.5 / x1.0
-Shieldstun: 6 / 6 / 6 / 6
 
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AceGamer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
338
Location
Ontario
I asked Rogunshu about it and he says it's too slow to use plus it doesn't send at a very good angle. It sends kinda up & away at like 35° like iirc
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
Wow. Frame 13 compared to dtilt's frame five. Holy crap that's terrible.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
I wonder if there is any place we can ask for a suggestion for it to be removed from lucario for actual 3.6 when the beta is over.

(or perhaps this would be too large of a buff to lucario that goes against their current agenda)
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
I don't think the PMDT would mind removing it if we're vocal enough. It isn't used in Lucario's kit, and it gets in the way.
 
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redcometchar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
378
Location
Side 3
What would make it just useful enough to be an option but not to be game changing, and at the same time be different from his other tilts?

What if he did like a little mini dash step during the move?

Or if it did better against ccers?
 
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Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
Well, adjusting the time in which it comes outs would be of significant importance. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but altering the angle to actually follow up out of it would be really helpful.
 

redcometchar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
378
Location
Side 3
Well if lucario moved forward a little when he did it, the away ish angle wouldn't matter so much maybe? I dunno, I just think it should be unique from down tilt.

I also notice it has better shield stun data maybe it would be better for shield pressure if it was faster?
 

Akkien

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
46
Location
VE
It has a hitbox with weight dependent knockback which is nice, but it's so slow and punishable that it's just better to down tilt or do something else in almost every case. I'd rather have a crawl attack that does minimal damage but slides and takes you behind the opponent tbh, kinda like samus'. That would be much more useful.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Overall its just really slow and only comes out as a miss input. I think the only practical use is to to punish a projectile that can't hit you while crouching.
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
It has a hitbox with weight dependent knockback which is nice, but it's so slow and punishable that it's just better to down tilt or do something else in almost every case. I'd rather have a crawl attack that does minimal damage but slides and takes you behind the opponent tbh, kinda like samus'. That would be much more useful.
I agree wholeheartedly, but what about one similar to Snake's crawl tilt?
 

HK_Spadez

(@'o')=@ t('o't)
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
221
that would be nice. considering snake gets a free grab or up tilt off of his
 

LupinX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
226
I agree Lucario's crawl tilt could be more useful than it is now. I have no idea if there is any follow ups from it? Is it even possible to use it after a jab/dash attack?
 

AceGamer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
338
Location
Ontario
Yeah it can be used in the magic series, it counts as a tilt but it's still too slow to use
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Would anybody be interested in forming a petition to PMBR to have crawl tilt removed from lucario in 3.6's release?
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
There's a problem other than just improving the move overall. It still messes up the occasional input for a dtilt out of DTC. How about having ctilt forced to solely come out from a crouching position only? You can't DTC into a crawling or ducking position as you're performing an attack out of it. You're not cancelling into a stationary position. Having ctilt performed out of a crouching position only will eliminate any potential mess ups when you want to dtilt.
 

Akkien

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
46
Location
VE
Honestly, I think it's not hard to do dtilt/ctilt from DTC at will, just learn how to be more precise with your control stick, really. Now, into the move itself, how about the kick from vBrawl's Double Team? A sliding Ryu's Crouching Medium kick? It is one of his staple moves, afterall, and since Lucario already resembles Ryu so much, it would fit him.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Honestly, I think it's not hard to do dtilt/ctilt from DTC at will, just learn how to be more precise with your control stick, really. Now, into the move itself, how about the kick from vBrawl's Double Team? A sliding Ryu's Crouching Medium kick? It is one of his staple moves, afterall, and since Lucario already resembles Ryu so much, it would fit him.
Sir, you may be correct when lucario is stationary, but when you are moving you could not be further from the truth.

Take this instance for example. You are facing away from your enemy and they just messed up with say a missed grab or L-cancel. This is the perfect opportunity to down b down tilt cancel and set up a combo. However, in order to down b into your opponent you must reverse down b. This is done by having the control stick pointed about ~20 degree's toward your opponent from the vertical. However, as soon as you down b reversed while having your control stick in the proper place for it to be reversed, you are now forced into performing a crawl tilt because the control stick is in the position for a crawl tilt.

I mean, yeah, you could technically quickly change the control stick down, and i have tried doing this, and i could not do this even in 2/3 speed. But this is definitely hard and simply adds frustration to playing lucario. You know what you want to do, and even tried to execute it; but because you were a few degree's off on your analog stick, you wiff into a crawl tilt and get punished or miss your combo.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Maybe a petition to improve it so it can be followed up more easily?
I don't think PMBR would consider even a small buff to lucario considering all the nerfs they gave to him.
 

Akkien

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
46
Location
VE
Sir, you may be correct when lucario is stationary, but when you are moving you could not be further from the truth.

Take this instance for example. You are facing away from your enemy and they just messed up with say a missed grab or L-cancel. This is the perfect opportunity to down b down tilt cancel and set up a combo. However, in order to down b into your opponent you must reverse down b. This is done by having the control stick pointed about ~20 degree's toward your opponent from the vertical. However, as soon as you down b reversed while having your control stick in the proper place for it to be reversed, you are now forced into performing a crawl tilt because the control stick is in the position for a crawl tilt.

I mean, yeah, you could technically quickly change the control stick down, and i have tried doing this, and i could not do this even in 2/3 speed. But this is definitely hard and simply adds frustration to playing lucario. You know what you want to do, and even tried to execute it; but because you were a few degree's off on your analog stick, you wiff into a crawl tilt and get punished or miss your combo.
Well, you really beat me there, I didn't consider B reverses and now that you point it out it's very true. While it's still doable, it's so hard to be consistent with it that it's just not a proportional reward for all the actual practice we need to be able to pull it off all the time.

So yeah, I'd agree on a petition that goes along the lines of: Give us a useful crawl tilt or just remove it.
I do, however, would like to see the appliances of a crawl tilt out of DTC so I rather not have it at all than limit it to crawling position only.
 

Eloc

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
9
Location
Long Island, New York
I don't think PMBR would consider even a small buff to lucario considering all the nerfs they gave to him.
Maybe not but, we could have a situation like lucas where they nerfed him but then realized something was unnecessarily bad. A lucario main can hope right?
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
I don't think PMBR would consider even a small buff to lucario considering all the nerfs they gave to him.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Lucario has indeed been prone to constant nerfing ever since his inception. He's also gotten his fair share of buffs. However after these huge, though warranted nerfs to his recovery, aura cancels, and aura gain, they finally might go about touching up his kit little by little. I personally think they will at this point because Lucario's tools are less toxic, and his recovery requires more creativity now.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Lucario has indeed been prone to constant nerfing ever since his inception. He's also gotten his fair share of buffs. However after these huge, though warranted nerfs to his recovery, aura cancels, and aura gain, they finally might go about touching up his kit little by little. I personally think they will at this point because Lucario's tools are less toxic, and his recovery requires more creativity now.
I agree that I "Got too ahead of myself" but i honestly don't foresee any significant buffs to lucario in the near future. It is entirely possible that they may "touch up his kit". However, I disagree with your point that his recovery requires more creativity.

Having more options lets you be more creative with your recovery. Yes, air-dodge out of up B was extremely powerful, but it wasn't free. 1 aura charge is a significant cost. Essentially, lucario's recovery is less creative at this point because you have the exact same options in 3.5 baring the air dodge option. Note that this is different with lucas's case because in that case, air dodge into grab was almost always the superior option. In lucario's case, it was never ideal to use an air dodge out of up b, because recovering so would limit your aggressive options back on stage. I always used it as a last resort.


As for the current topic on hand, something that I would like to see with crawl tilt (Other then having it removed, which I would prefer) is to have lucario keep his forward momentum so that you can slide forward like a canceled down tilt with crawl tilt. This will give it the range it needs to act as a viable punish option; (even though it is pretty slow).
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
788
I agree that I "Got too ahead of myself" but i honestly don't foresee any significant buffs to lucario in the near future. It is entirely possible that they may "touch up his kit". However, I disagree with your point that his recovery requires more creativity.

Having more options lets you be more creative with your recovery. Yes, air-dodge out of up B was extremely powerful, but it wasn't free. 1 aura charge is a significant cost. Essentially, lucario's recovery is less creative at this point because you have the exact same options in 3.5 baring the air dodge option. Note that this is different with lucas's case because in that case, air dodge into grab was almost always the superior option. In lucario's case, it was never ideal to use an air dodge out of up b, because recovering so would limit your aggressive options back on stage. I always used it as a last resort.


As for the current topic on hand, something that I would like to see with crawl tilt (Other then having it removed, which I would prefer) is to have lucario keep his forward momentum so that you can slide forward like a canceled down tilt with crawl tilt. This will give it the range it needs to act as a viable punish option; (even though it is pretty slow).
Fair point about the recovery. I agree with your take on it. In regards to the part about any significant buffs, I do agree with that as well. I honestly can't see many more significant changes to him as a whole.
 

LupinX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
226
The changes that should happen to Lucario (in my opinion) are

1. Reducing 8 frames to 6 in ASC
2. Reduce knockback from grounded uncharged side-b
3. DTC attacks coming out faster. And yes, it got slower in 3.6.

As for crawl attack, if it can follow-up to another move (which doesn't happen cause on how slow it is) I'm all for it. If not, then it should get removed.
 
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