Lucario Clinic: Options, Strategies, and AT's

[DrSoussou]

Welcome. This is a collection of typical combat situations that occur in Brawl, each provided with a list of preferable options that Lucario can choose from under given circumstances. Not every option can be covered in this thread, but with your help we can cover as many as possible. Some of these descriptions will include instructions on how the actions are performed, why they are used or what they accomplish, and when they are preferred (at what range, against which characters, on which stages, or at what percentages). It is important to remember that not every option will necessarily be optimal, and that each scenario should be fully assessed before choosing any option.

The purpose of reading this should be to make yourself aware of all of Lucario’s different options and advanced techniques, so that when you find yourself in a difficult situation, you will have the tools to respond to it favorably. Never use the same option every time you are presented with a certain scenario. Varying your options is the best way to remain unpredictable and safe while eliciting a desired outcome. Always take into consideration the changing elements of a particular game, matchup, and/or opponent. In other words, realize that a single option may benefit differently at different times, even within the same game/match/set. Enjoy, and please subscribe and feel free to comment, suggest, correct, and contribute.

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:Table of Contents:
Ctrl+F each topic heading bordered by colons (e.g. ":Defense:")


:Table of Contents:
:Glossary:

:Offense:
:Approaching:
:KO:
:Gimps:
:Edge-Guarding:
:AS:
[Punish]
:Grabs/Throws:
:Combos/Strings:

:Defense:
:Spacing:
:AS:
:Recovery:
:Ledge:
:Landing:

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:Glossary:
Most of these terms are from this thread (RJ’s starter guide and database)
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/the-lucario-starter-guide-and-minor-database.239748/, which you should at least skim before reading this one. Some terminology and definitions vary within different communities, but these terms/abbreviations will be used for the purposes of this thread. Some abbreviations will be joined to describe a technique that combines two or more. If you do not understand a certain term or its use in any of the following options, please refer to either the link cited above, or YouTube for a video demonstration. You can also just post your concerns on this thread in the form of a question, or if all else fails, PM (privately message) one of the creators of this thread.

Specific to Lucario

AB= Aura Bonus = increased damage/knockback on aura-based moves caused by stock and/or % deficit.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1382/auramythtrainerinfinity.png
AF = Aura Flame = Side-B (projectile)
AS= Aura Sphere = Neutral-B
ASC = Aura Sphere Charge = press B to charge only
BAS = Baby Aura Sphere = FAS immediately after initiating a charge
DT = Double-Team = Down-B
ES = Extremespeed = Up-B
F1 = Frame-1 FP grab = buffered FP grab from air to landing (activates on frame 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto#t=4m52s
FAS = Fire AS = press B at any time after completing a charge
FCAS= Fully-Charged AS
FP = Force Palm = Side-B


Non-Specific

AD= Airdodge
BR = B-Reverse = press B, then an immediate directional input away from where you’re facing. Turns you around and reverses trajectory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEQsXWh0dVY#t=1m
CG = Chain-Grab
CP = Counterpick (stage or character)
CQC = Close-Quarters-Combat
DD = DoubleDare© = Dair, followed by DJ or footstool jump, followed by one or more Dairs
DI = Directional Influence
DJ = Double-Jump
FF= Fastfall
FH= Full-Hop (press jump button)
GUA = Get-up Attack (from ledge or from laying down on floor)
MU= Match-Up
OoS = Out of Shield
SH= Short-Hop (tap jump button)
TB = Turnaround-B = slight directional input away from where you’re facing, immediately followed by B. Turns you around and maintains trajectory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEQsXWh0dVY#t=33s
WB = Wavebounce = Combines a BR with a TB. While holding forward, input a slight directional tilt back, press B, and then a slight directional tilt forward. Reverses trajectory and maintains direction in which Lucario is facing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG098jC4in0#t=1m46s

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:Offense:
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:Approaching: (neutral position)

-Air
1. Short-hop: Most common aerial approach, and most diverse. All of Lucario’s aerials can be done before the end of a SH and even after a Fair. Try to end with Nair whenever possible so that you can auto-cancel into a follow-up, and FF whenever you only use one aerial in a SH so that you don’t linger in the air. SHFair > FFNair/Dair > follow-up (grab, FAS, tilts) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=7m25s
2. Reverse Aerial Rush (RAR): dash towards opponent > pivot > jump > Bair
Time jump and Bair appropriately for opponent’s location (don’t land during end of Bair). This works as a great follow-up for throws and edge-guards well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=5m15s
3. WBAS: Best used as punishment after baiting with an empty Fair or unsafe jump. It’s difficult to perform in-game without significant practice, so do not choose this option doubtfully. A whiff usually results in a WBFP or a normal falling ASC, both of which are highly punishable. Can grant a safe retreating charge after a Fair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QofFv6F_NEI#t=39s
4. DD: Dangerous if predicted. Opponents can angle their shield up and let it absorb multiple Dairs. Never fall to the stage after the first Dair. Always use the second jump to either escape, add more Dairs (if you know they will connect), or FFNair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto#t=3m47s
5. ASC: After a SHFair or on its own, an ASC can be used to press an opponent’s shield and even grant a follow-up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto Use any B-stick tricks (WB, TB, BR) to properly aim and land the multi-hit charge. While they are caught, follow up with a jump OoS > retreating Fair or rising Nair. Hold the charge for as long as you feel safe, but remember that they will DI out easily, especially out of a smaller sphere. Usually takes priority over any normal hitboxes. The easiest way is with a TB after a SHFair.
6. Cross-Up: A blanket term used to describe the idea of attacking a defensive opponent head-on, and then continuing past them with another attack. With Lucario, this is normally initiated by an approaching SHFair on shield, then finished with a second aerial as you move through your opponent. Mix up this tactic by using AD after Fair to anticipate your opponent's attempt to counter your approach OoS, and by alternating between cross-up attack options (Bair, Nair, Dair, land > grab). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5I8iJ3cBs8#t=1m56s

-Ground
7. Dash Attack (Datt): As one of your most simple and direct options, it can be good for quick punishments but is very unsafe on shield. Sourspot (late hit) and Sweet-spot (early hit) have different knockback vectors, so remember that followups are different. Usually, your opponent will be sent above and behind you, so follow with a turnaround Fair combo. If they try to land immediately, go for a grab, FP, or another Datt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8UEvDsry_w#t=7m43s
8. Dash Grab: foxtrot > dash-grab / run past > pivot grab / dash > Froll > grab
Players expect Lucarios to abuse roll, so vary your approaches
9. Ftilt/Fsmash: mix with walking, stutter-steps, and dashes. Spacing is critical here. Many characters can hit Lucario with a Datt if he whiffs an Fsmash. Ftilt is safer but its still not fast enough to cover an Fsmash or catch an opponent off-guard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=40s
10. Bait: Using a defensive move during an approach (e.g. dash > dodge > punish)
Works if your opponent is aggro. If not, you’ll end up shielding in front of their shield a lot or spot-dodging as they roll. Only dash > defend if you read an attack.
11. AS: If you need to take stage presence or change the tempo of the game in favor of your offense, toss out AS and know that your opponent will shield/jump/dodge. Then immediately close space and then react to their defense appropriately. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=7m43s

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:KO: Lucario’s kill-moves include Smashes, Aerials (all but Fair), AS, FP, and throws (mainly F/Bthrow). At max AB, all moves can kill except BAS, ASC, ES, Datt, Uthrow, pummels, and jabs 1&2.
1. Fsmash: The strongest part of the hitbox at the end of the aura wall has amazing knockback. Its cooldown will tempt more aggro opponents to punish, so don’t spam or use it during CQC. Zoning with Fsmash is a simple way to force your opponent to make a costly mistake and grant you the kill. Combine it with Ftilts (so you’re not predictable on the ground) and RAR-Bairs and you’ll have them cornered quickly. Stutter-step Fsmash with C-stick.
2. AS: Effective deterrent, zoning tool, and stand-alone threat. At high %, your opponent is more likely to jump out of the way, hold their shield, or ledge-camp, and less likely to risk an AD, PShield, or spot-dodge. Maximize FCAS unpredictability with B-tricks. Try not to hold your FCAS and make it obvious. Throw out spheres that are 99% charged and jump frequently while charging so they have no idea when to dodge. Vary these options and you’re sure to connect with your sphere or KO your opponent thanks to a defensive commitment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=13m30s

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:Gimps: Killing your opponent by somehow impeding their ability to return to the stage.

-Edge-Hogs
1. Walk-off: For an opponent who is recovering low or dropping back from the ledge. Run straight off the stage and fall into the opponent with your aerial, then hold the ledge when they try to recover. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8UEvDsry_w#t=7m49s Many combos can gimp if you DJ > Fair immediately after the first hit connects. Use ES to recover to the ledge and remain hanging as long as necessary. If your opponent attempts to hit you off the ledge, use roll for the most delayed invincibility (especially when you’re over 100%).
2. Combo: If you trap your opponent with the ledge at their back and are able to land a SHFair, continue to fall and Fair without jumping to force them farther away from the stage. Use your jump to add Fairs and maintain height, then use ES when you’ve reached the extent of its range. Never use Nair or you will fall to your death. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=4m57s
3. Foot-Stool: Compromises recovery if missed, but usually deadly if done properly. From either a walk-off Fair or a combo, use Lucario’s DJ to move over your floating opponent and tap the jump button again to land the foot-stool. Then recover with ES.

-Stage Spike
4. Dair: If you’re on the stage and know that your opponent has to recover upwards from directly beneath the ledge, walk-off > FFDair. If you connect with the side of Dair’s hitbox closest to the stage, your opponent will ricochet off the bottom of the stage, and be launched directly downwards. If you connect with the opposite side (away from stage), your opponent will be launched up and away from the map. Use more Dairs to stall or time your gimp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxnt9buxOk#t=1m18s
5. Bair: Only recommended if your opponent is hanging from the ledge without invincibility frames. Unlikely unless you’re both going for the same ledge and they hang for too long, in which case Fair would also work but probably wouldn’t kill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=3m10s

-AS
6. BAS: If an opponent has used their DJ to recover over the map or at edge-level, you can gimp their ability to reach the stage by spamming (or with a well-placed) BAS. They will be forced to use their recovery move, which allows you to try for an edge-hog. Sometimes BAS can also cause ledge-hoppers to accidentally SD with their recovery move, so try firing off a few if you’re far away just in case. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSnfT1D2dwA&feature=youtu.be#t=2m17s
7. Force FFAD: When opponents refuse to recover over the map and consistently fall under it to grab the ledge from underneath, FAS at edge-level and they will have to fall faster or AD. This usually means that they will have to use their recovery move in order to survive, which allows you an edge-hogging opportunity.

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:Edge-Guarding:

-Recovering Opponent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7XHYWnSDXs#t=5m10s
1. Fsmash: If an opponent is too far away from the stage to recover over it, using Fsmash while standing at the end of the ledge will force them to stay away from it until they can recover from underneath. Time it well so that they can’t AD through it safely, and you will have a chance to gimp them depending on their recovery. Or you could hit them with Fsmash, which is nice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=2m52s
2. AS: Shoot at your recovering opponent to keep the pressure on and either hit them with it or force them to recover from below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsJ6TNKsgdQ#t=3m20s This is a good option if you want to edge-guard defensively, or just charge AS and let your opponent limp back into the fray.
3. RAR: Very aggressive option, but relatively safe with a high reward, especially if your opponent doesn’t expect it. Bair has a very large and lasting hitbox, so you can probe the air with it at the very least. This can commonly net you a kill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=12m35s
4. Gimp: Employ any of Lucario’s various gimp options, see “Gimps”.
5. Grab Ledge: Not usually a very reliable option, but this can force opponents to recover over the map and net you a free punish. However, if they opt to fall underneath, you could be vulnerable to their attack while recovering. Time your invincibility frames carefully. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=2m10s

-Opponent on Ledge: Always try to cover the basic options (attack, stand, roll, jump, hop).
6. Smash: Try to stand a perfect Fsmash’s distance away from the ledge, covering their standing and jumping options by default. Move a little closer and Dsmash will cover both rolling and standing, but you’ll be susceptible to a lot of ledge-attacks. Charge smashes for timing, and mix with Ftilt so you're not predictable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=12m13s
7. AS: FCAS fired from the ground can often hit someone hanging from the ledge, but the main threat is in holding/moving around with an ASC so that your opponent is unsure of what options are safe. Holding a stationary ASC should keep your opponent from standing or rolling onto a level even with the stage, so expect them to jump or hop and punish them for it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=4m20s
8. Dtilt: This can sometimes be an unsafe option because it requires standing pretty close to the edge of the stage, but it can often poke an opponent who holds onto the ledge past their allotted invincibility frames. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=1m14s
9. Dair: Jump to a position over the ledge and use multiple Dairs, this will cause them to second-guess the safety of everything but a roll. More often than not, you should be able to land a hit.
10. Aerial: Covers jumps and can be followed up with Dair. If you make this obvious or use it too many times in succession, your opponent will probably stand or hop while you’re in the air depending on how far away you are.
11. Grab: Many opponents abuse ledge-hopping, especially ledge-hop > AD. If you predict this and get the timing right, all you have to do is face the edge and grab. Also counters ledge > stand. Follow by throwing them back off-stage for further edge-guarding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=2m45s

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:AS:

-Charging
1. Threat: FAS has less startup lag from a charged position, so it really scares opponents at high%. FAS from a falling ASC is also highly unpredictable, and opponents will be hesitant to approach you from long range. This is good for slowing the tempo of the match and earning some breathing room. You obviously have to fire on occasion or your opponent will begin to call your bluff, interpreting ASC as an opening to attack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ZCyWFT3w0#t=2m35s
2. Hitbox: The priority of ASC’s hitbox causes tremendous shield pressure, so don’t be afraid to approach with it occasionally.When an opponent is caught in the charge, you can quickly follow into some combos. Jump OoS > Backwards Fair > FFNair. In the air, you can also use the ASC hitbox for protection against moves with low priority. TBASC has many creative uses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=2m50s
3. Options: On stage: spot-dodge, jump OoS, roll, FAS, shield, grab. In the air: AD or FAS.

-Firing FCAS
4. Distraction: FAS to elicit a defensive reaction, and then quickly punish. Works best when in closer proximity to your opponent. Most people will shield, so you can follow up with a grab or anticipate that they will release it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxnt9buxOk#t=1m9s If they’re in the air, FAS and they’ll either jump or FFAD. This can lead to a Datt or an opportunity to juggle.
5. Releases: Opponents normally expect Lucario to FAS from mid-range (close-range is unsafe and long-range is easy to negate), but they don’t expect every mix-up. Try walking off a platform and BRFAS immediately in the opposite direction. Jump to a platform, cancel it, then fall back through it and FAS. Use plenty of B-tricks and cancel your charges while moving. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=29s WBFAS after a SHFair. Retreat jump and then TBFAS. Charge AS on the ground, jump OoS, finish charging in the air, then FAS.
6. KO: see “KOs”, above. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4#t=16m32s

-BAS
7. Force Approach: Especially against characters w/o projectiles, they will be forced to attack you or keep taking damage. No one can Power-shield forever, but they can move forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ZCyWFT3w0#t=3m37s
8. Damage: Every percent helps. Don’t be afraid to play like a Falco if you’re desperate.
9. Conditioning: When mixing SHBAS with slightly charged ones and fast/continuous ones, your opponent will predictably avoid them while approaching. Use this to dictate their actions.
10. Hitstun: If you’re able to quickly fire a BAS in close proximity to your opponent, the resulting hitstun can often provide a free followup. Take advantage of this to land a quick combo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8UEvDsry_w#t=3m5s

-B-Tricks
11. Mixups: Your goal should be to worry your opponent every time you enter the air. Keep them guessing as to which way you’ll end up moving and facing, as well as whether you’ll be firing or charging your AS or following up with a different attack. Flashiness is intimidating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ZCyWFT3w0#t=18m30s
12. Mobility: Use B-tricks to keep yourself in a favorable position over your opponent. Once you’ve mastered them, a risky or accidental SH forward will be nothing a quick WB can’t fix. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ZCyWFT3w0#t=4m

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[Punish] How to take advantage of mistakes made by your opponent most efficiently.

-Speed: When the amount of time available to punish is the limiting factor.
1. Grab: All things considered, grabbing is usually a very safe and reliable punishment option. At most percentages, there will be some sort of follow-up that you can grant yourself from a given throw, and a grab is very fast to execute. See “Grabs/Throws” below for more info. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=3m18s
2. Datt: Dashing towards your opponent will help to quickly cover any distance between you, and Datt will substitute for a grab if there’s no time to be precise. Follow up accordingly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=35s

-Range: When your distance from your opponent is the limiting factor.
3. Air: If your opponent is in the air, punish with your most fresh aerial if you are aware of which moves you have used recently. Avoid Fair and the weak portion of Nair if you can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=2m44s
4. Ground: If you’re within smash range of your opponent when they make themselves vulnerable, know that Dsmash is stronger, and more likely to be fresh than Fsmash. Avoid Usmash, and charge your punishment option as much as you can if possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=6m58s
5. FCAS: For a combination of high damage output and long range capability in a given punish. Unfortunately, this will usually require you to predict your opponent’s mistake. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=1m21s

-Damage: Strongest possible punishment.
6. Smashes: If time isn’t a factor (your opponent’s shield breaks or you predict their move), try to maximize damage with a charged smash. Take move freshness into account. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7XHYWnSDXs#t=3m52s
7. FCAS: If you’ve already charged your AS, there is no other option that is potentially as fast and powerful. Keep in mind that your AB will affect the strength of your sphere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=10m27s
8. KO: Take your opponent’s stock if you can. This may call for a circumstantial move, like Utilt if you’re at a high point on a map with a low ceiling, or a fast but weak/stale move if you’re close a a map’s boundary.

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:Grabs/Throws:

-Choice
1. Aura: If your AB is high, Uthrow and Fthrow gain damage and knockback. If not, ~10% from Bthrow and Dthrow may be more reliable. Consider your opponent’s damage as well as possible follow-ups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=8m19s
2. Location: Your position on the map will influence the direction in which you want to throw your opponent. Tossing your opponent off the stage and following-up with an edgeguard is always a good strategy. Always know where the nearest stage boundaries are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=4m37s
3. Freshness: If your first options for throwing are now stale, use a fresh throw instead, especially if the direction you send your opponent doesn’t particularly matter. Consider aura. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=2m11s

-CG
4. FP: Certain heavy characters that fall quickly and are easy to grab are susceptible to continuous FP. Although this is not a true CG and only works when your opponent is at low percent, it can deal quite a bit of damage very quickly, especially with follow-ups and high AB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1QmLSzSkDw#t=45s
5. Uthrow: Lucario only has one true CG, and it is very limited. Because Uthrow has very little knockback, it can be chained against fast-falling characters. Uthrow CG Fox from 0-22%. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=3m32s

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:Combos/Strings:*This is not a list of guaranteed, unbreakable combos. Some are basic strategies and attacks that are simply worth knowing and practicing. Others are very situational and improvised.
1. Jab Cancel: Input “Down” after Jab1 or 2, then follow up or reset.
Jab1 > Jab2 > Grab/FP/Ftilt/FAS/Jab1/Fsmash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdV_EXCkyNA#t=1m20s
Jab1 > Jab2 > Dtilt > Fsmash
2. SHFair: Lucario’s bread-and-butter aerial approach. Leads to many different frame-traps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7XHYWnSDXs#t=3m15s
SHFair > Dair > FCAS
SHFair > FFNair > Jab1 > Jab2 > cancel > Grab
SHFair > Bair (cross-up)
SHFair > turnF1
SHFair > TBASC > jumpOoS > Fair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=4m07s
3. Fair: In the air, Lucario can frame-trap many characters. Sometimes this leads to a gimp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=4m45s
Fair > Fair > jumpFair > Fair > ES(recover)
Fair > Fair > jumpUair/Nair
4. Dash-attack: When the sour-spot connects, your opponent is sent above and behind you.
Datt > turnaround > Datt/Grab >
Datt > Utilt > Uair > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=2m10s
Datt > turnSHFair > Dair/FFNair
5. Grabs/Throws: Some throws can be followed up at low percent.
Uthrow > Uthrow (CG on Fox)
Dthrow > Fair > FFNair
FP > FP > Grab > Uthrow > Utilt >
6. Combo: Put all of these principles together to chain your attacks and create strings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_820642&feature=iv&src_vid=Pcj1PjtCddE&v=f5I8iJ3cBs8#t=3m44s
SHFair > FFNair > Jab1 > cancel-Grab > Uthrow > Utilt > SHNair
Fair > FFNair > Utilt >> Fair > FFNair > Utilt
Datt > turnSHFair > Dair > FCAS
Jab1 > Jab2 > FP > FP > Grab > Uthrow > Usmash > Uair > Fair > FCAS

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:Defense:
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:Spacing:The goal of proper spacing is to assert that the area around you is unsafe for your opponent. Simultaneously, you need to be ready to test your opponent’s defenses.

-Air
1. AS: To prevent an aerial assault, a good option is to SHASC. This will force your opponent to be wary of a possible AS being launched in their direction as they jump. Several ways to perform this include a forwards, backwards or neutral SH, a RAR->BRASC, or even a WBASC. These options will force your opponent to expect an aerial only to see it cancelled into an AS that could be fired at them at any moment to punish their reaction. Cancel your charge with AD and reset if necessary.
2. SHBair: Bair has a large hitbox and is safer to toss out at mid-range than AS. FF to minimize vulnerability time in the air, and be ready to react to your opponent’s response. For example, if they attack you after you complete your Bair, DJ->Dair to punish before landing.
3. SHFair: Faster than Bair but doesn’t last as long. You can follow-up with another aerial, which you can’t do with SHBair, or with FAS or ASC and any B-trick. Fair is also very good for retreating. Space with SHFair by jumping backwards and using C-stick to Fair forwards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=24s

-Ground
4. Fsmash: Very effective deterrent with significant range, however it may be dangerous at mid-range against an opponent fast enough to punish the startup or ending lag. Stutter-step with C-stick as a mixup, and try not to overuse in succession.
5. Ftilt: Much faster and less risky than Fsmash, but with half the range. Two hitboxes come in handy for getting through power-shielding and clanks. Can be tilted upwards and downwards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LQu6OuPVpM#t=18s
6. Footsies: Movement is very important in spacing. Combine dashes, walking, foxtrots, stutter-steps, retreating pivot-grabs, and shielding to move in and out of your opponent’s effective range of attack. Make them cautious about making a move for fear of punishment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=19s

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:AS:

-ASC
1. Nuclear deterrent: Showing off a charging AS will keep an opponent from walking towards you, because they know you could fire it at any time. If they’re still determined to approach, they may take to the air or foxtrot towards you while popping their shield. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=4m07s
2. Hitbox: The charging AS’s multiple hitboxes can defend you in the air when landing or on the ground from an opponent closing in (although just standing there isn’t recommended). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4#t=9m37s

-FAS
3. Obstacle: AS can often be used as a tool to place a hurdle between you and your opponent. If you're caught in an unfavorable position or you're afraid of your opponent closing in on you at mid-range, FAS (or even just a single quick BAS) to keep them at bay momentarily while you reset the situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8UEvDsry_w#t=8m10s
4. Interrupt: Use AS to disrupt your opponent’s offensive rhythm. If you’re caught in a string of their attacks, particularly in the air, this can be useful at a distance. Also useful if they’re charging their own projectile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=9m48s

-Zoning: Creating potentially-unsafe areas on the map in order to control or influence your opponent’s movement.
5. Vertical: AS can eliminate options for your opponent. Jumping in the air > FAS can force your opponent to stay on the ground, and FAS on the ground can make them want to stay in the air. Combine these influences by jumping and simply charging your AS, this will make it momentarily unclear to them what position on the map is safest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CV5TJ3iSV8#t=1m50s
6. Punish: Good defense is often good offense. The purpose of zoning is to force your opponent’s hand, which gives you a much higher chance of accurately predicting where they will go or what they will do. Use this to bring the fight to them before you’re cornered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=1m54s

-Blocking
7. Clank: AS comes in many sizes, which means it can clank with or beat many attacks of varying power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxnt9buxOk#t=8m30s It detonates many projectiles and its slow movement causes it to last long enough to interfere with various attacks. Using it as a shield is always an option. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7XHYWnSDXs#t=4m08s

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

:Recovery:

-DI: The best DI includes both the C-stick to perform your fastest-ending aerial, and the analog stick to aim towards the corner of stage. Never AD to DI, and always save your DJ.
1. Fair: Fastest-ending aerial. Repeatedly using Fair will slow Lucario’s momentum after being launched and help you to survive longer than normal. Continue Fair until in control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTzKOtLevbo#t=2m
2. Dair: Momentum-cancelling aerial. Depending on your launch trajectory, Dair can be used to halt momentum and help keep you out of the stage’s blast-zones. Use with/after Fair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kxnt9buxOk#t=1m40s If we get launched sideways we should F-air / D-air with a DJ D-air. Likewise, we should DI vertical momentum with stage corner DI and F-air / D-air with TB-ASC>AD or DT for more momentum cancel.

-Position
3. Over Stage: If your launch is vertical or high enough that you can drift back onto the stage without having to reach the ledge, try to recover by landing safely (see “Landing”, below). A strategy that Trela often employs involves his use of a TBAS after DI from launch so that his back is turned to the stage. This allows him to use Bair to protect himself as he drifts towards the stage rather than Fair, which has a shorter, smaller, and more vulnerable hitbox than Bair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGWY6OWe78#t=39s
4. Ledge: If you’re too far away, and/or your opponent is preventing you from landing safely over the stage, the safest option is to recover directly to the ledge and then use a ledge option to get back onstage. Try to save your DJ so that you can use it to reach the ledge directly, rather than using ES. You can also use your DJ to attack the ledge, keeping it safe from your opponent with Fair or AS as you prepare to grab it. You can also ES to the ledge from anywhere within range. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=9m38s
5. Under Stage: If your opponent is holding the ledge and you can’t recover over the stage, you’ll have to recover from underneath it. Drift as closely to the ledge as you can and use attacks or stalling techniques so that the ledge is available when you need to grab it. If its still contested, recover over the stage and accept punishment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=9m49s

-ES: ES has no hitbox, but a lot of range and the ability to bend. It clings directly to walls.
6. Position: ES can be used to recover anywhere on the stage, but is punishable when you don’t use it to directly grab the ledge. Sometimes using ES early to recover high is a good, unpredictable recovery mixup. Using ES to go into the stage floor cancels some lag. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmtfAwmwxhU#t=2m20s
7. Ledge-Hog: If your opponent is holding the ledge, you can’t take control of it because ES has no hitbox. This means that you will be forced to recover over the stage, and your opponent will use a GUA for a free punish. This is ALWAYS preferable to losing your stock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4#t=4m36s
8. Wall: ES can be used to cling to a wall (Yoshi’s, FD, Frigate). From this position, you can wall-jump in order to recover to the ledge or over the stage. However, you must recover after this, because you can’t use ES again unless you take knockback, land, or grab the ledge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOPnX9WtsP4#t=14m7s
9. DJ: If you’re too far to reach the stage with just your DJ, or you’ve already used/lost it, you’ll be forced to use ES. Without your DJ, any move with lasting lag will prevent you from recovering with ES (e.g. Nair), so make sure to save your DJ and recover early if you can’t. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Dg3i6R20U#t=4m14s

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
:Ledge: Default ledge options (jump, roll, stand, GUA) have two forms (0-99%, 100+%).

-Jump: tap up, or any jump button.
1. Jump > (FF)AD: Good for baiting your opponent into the air and then safely landing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERYPW4wdbzQ#t=8m48s
2. Jump > Dair: For a dumb opponent who stands at the end of the stage, or a clever one who tries to run off > DJBair as you climb up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=3m54s
3. Jump > DJ: Good for staying above the opponent if they don’t chase you into the air. Your opponent will try to juggle you after this option, so land safely (see “Landing” below). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=2m18s

-Drop: tap down or away from the stage.
4. Drop > ES: Good for resetting your invincibility frames, properly timing an edge-hog kill, or dodging an attack aimed at the ledge. Drop > DJ works the same way, with different timing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=57s
5. Drop > aerial: For harassing an opponent attacking you offstage or trying to recover.
6. Drop > cling: On FD and a few other maps, you can fall into a wall-cling and then wall-jump over the edge onto the map, usually with a Bair to create space for protection.

-Hop: Dropping from ledge and using DJ to recover onto the stage.
7. Ledge-hop > AD: A very safe option unless your opponent reads your initial drop. Your AD will keep you invulnerable throughout the hop, and can even continue into a spot-dodge.
8. Ledge-hop > aerial: Great for varying your recovery onto the lip of the stage. You can even land a Fair > FFNair combo if you time your jumping Fair correctly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cS93poe84s&#t=3m45s If using Fair to commit over the stage is still unsafe, you can Fair past the ledge once and then use another retreating Fair to keep from being hit while immediately returning to grab the ledge.
9. Ledge-hop > (FC)AS: Good for backing up an opponent attacking far from the ledge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTzKOtLevbo#t=2m9s
10. Ledge-hop > shark: An attack from the ledge done without Lucario returning above the stage. Best option is Uair, which can go through the ledge on many maps (doesn’t work on FD, Frigate, or Yoshi’s), but Fair can also work. Recover safely. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=5m18s
11. Ledge-hop > Wall-jump: On FD, BF, Yoshi's, PS, and a few other stages, you can ledge-hop back into the ledge, and if you do it quickly enough you will wall-jump off the ledge and end up higher out over the map. I like to use this as a mixup and BRASC at the peak of the jump, giving me a charge while moving towards the stage over my opponent and also facing them.
12. Ledge-hop > TBASC: Complicated to execute, risky, gimmicky, and flashy, but potentially decent reward. Will only work on an opponent standing pretty close to the edge of the stage. Press back to just barely fall away from the edge, then immediately use your DJ to get Lucario over the stage. While heading towards your edge-guarding opponent, use a TB and get them caught in the charge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx7pgggGYto#t=1m47s Follow up the multiple hits with a shield-cancel > rising Nair / retreating Fair combo.
13. Ledge-hop > DT: not recommended. Marth's do this with their counter all the time, but we usually end up off the map with our counter-attack when done improperly. Can work sometimes, but it’s dangerous.

-Roll/Stand: Shield to roll, tap towards the stage to stand.
14. Roll: Can be dangerously easy to read, especially over 100%. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=15m12s Gets past an opponent standing right at the ledge or taking to the air. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=14m51s

15. Stand: Fastest option for getting your paws back on the ground. Keeps you close to the edge of the stage and can be risky unless your opponent is farther away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=10s

-GUA: Press A/B to attack an opponent near the edge.
16. 0-99%: Very fast, with deceptively-long range over the edge. Loses to opponent’s shield. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=7m5s
17. 100+%: Very slow and easy to react to. However, Lucario is totally invincible until its over. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=1m36s

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

:Landing: Mix as many of these options as you safely can during every landing.

-WB/TB/BR
1. WB/BR: Since you change trajectory with both of these, they can be extremely useful for moving away from your opponent while conserving your DJ. When charging, the AS hitbox itself can serve as some protection, and when firing, you can cover your landing.
2. TB: This can’t help to abruptly change your direction, but the defensive ASC hitbox still works. Alternately, employ one of Trela’s favorite tactics and TB > AD directly after being launched to turn your back to the stage. This allows your Bair to help you recover rather than Fair, which has a weaker and smaller hitbox with less duration. Be careful not to accidentally BR instead near the boundaries of the map...you’ll propel yourself into the blast-zone and die.

-AD
3. FFAD: You should pretty much always be fast-falling if you AD to land and avoid being juggled. This option speaks for itself, but remember, just because you CAN use it multiple times doesn’t mean that you should (especially not in succession). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1ZCyWFT3w0#t=17m43s

-Dair Stall
4. High: Useful if you simply need to buy time. It can be done multiple times in succession and Lucario will only fall slightly. This will also stop you from drifting horizontally, so it can confuse someone trying to follow your expected path. BRs and TBs will lose their effectiveness, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4haAInWNo#t=15m20s
5. Low: Best only done after using your DJ close to the stage. This will deter your opponent from rushing to a position directly beneath you, and lets you clear your LZ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoWnOhBqkbY#t=1m25s

-DJ
6. Wasting DJ: CONSERVE YOUR DJ AT ALL COSTS!!! This is the only thing you have that can be used to regain height other than ES, so don’t waste it. Common wastes include using it at the extent of your launch to regulate your momentum, adding height to a vertical launch so you can charge AS while landing, and jumping to reverse trajectory (USE BR!). Without DJ, Lucario is very helpless off-stage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dt3c3OMEeY#t=1m2s
7. Using DJ: If you’re over the stage, just consider it another mix-up for safe landing. It can be a good way to generate horizontal momentum before reversing it, or making the opponent thing you’re about to land and then DJDair-ing them when they get closer. Be careful, though. If you use it and then fail to land, you could be juggled off the map and forced to ES. If you’re away from the stage, DJ can be used to bypass the edge and start an aerial combo on your opponent as they edge-guard.

Thanks to all of those people who contributed in some way to this thread. Hopefully I cited my sources properly. I will continue editing this post with additional comments and corrections, as well as adding video tags to those sections that need clarification.

 

[elrelster]

Very much, I like. Very very much.

 

[hichez50]

Great Guide. I'm impressed. There are some clarifications and corrections that I see.

Under the Aura Sphere part, Charging subsection, Options #3

You should add "OoS Dair on contact"
-This is usefull for when you need a fast option and don't know what direction your opponent is going.

Unde rthe Edge-guarding section

You need to add grab. A lot of characters will jump off the edge and air dodge and if you know the timing
you just need to grab.

The same things is true with Dtilt. It isn't unsafe if you know what you are doing. If you know your opponent is
going to air dodge then you use dtilt. A lot of people with spot dodge that on landing then you have a free grab.

For the defense section you need to add retreating fair and Dair stalling. Those are very viable defensive options.

Up air creates frame traps if your opponent is directly above you and they airdodge.

I may provide a list of characters you should gimp with fair and which characters you should gimp with dair.

You also might want to add when rolling is an option. A lot of new lucario's struggle with this.

 

[DrSoussou]

Great Guide. I'm impressed. There are some clarifications and corrections that I see.

Under the Aura Sphere part, Charging subsection, Options #3

You should add "OoS Dair on contact"
-This is usefull for when you need a fast option and don't know what direction your opponent is going.
that subheading was just meant to list the single-action options that are immediately available out of ASC. however, the video directly above that demonstrates exactly what you're talking about.
Unde rthe Edge-guarding section

You need to add grab. A lot of characters will jump off the edge and air dodge and if you know the timing
you just need to grab. just added it, good point

The same things is true with Dtilt. It isn't unsafe if you know what you are doing. If you know your opponent is
going to air dodge then you use dtilt. A lot of people with spot dodge that on landing then you have a free grab. just added it, good point

For the defense section you need to add retreating fair and Dair stalling. Those are very viable defensive options.
just added retreating fair under Defense > spacing > air. Dair stalling is under "Landing" towards the end
Up air creates frame traps if your opponent is directly above you and they airdodge.
I may need to add an offensive section on juggling
I may provide a list of characters you should gimp with fair and which characters you should gimp with dair.
looking forward to it
You also might want to add when rolling is an option. A lot of new lucario's struggle with this.

i'm not sure where to put that, but you're definitely right.

thanks for the input

 

[Meta651]

Very good guide, great work with the examples, it shows clearly what to do and sometimes what not to do and you show how to cover the majority of the options or situations.

I dont know if its necesary to mention but something i always do when a opponent its nearby the ledge to gimp or attack i always try to keep the ledge safe with AS, BAS or Fairs obiously without sacrifiying a stock or recovering from so low, it has saved me in a lot of situations

Also i think like hichez, that a juggling section its a good idea, Lucario has great juggling options, especially against heavy characters or fast faller (Snake) .

 

[hichez50]

I dont know if its necesary to mention but something i always do when a opponent its nearby the ledge to gimp or attack i always try to keep the ledge safe with AS, BAS or Fairs obiously without sacrifiying a stock or recovering from so low, it has saved me in a lot of situations
.

I don't understand what you mean by your comment. May you please explain or clarify?

 

[Meta651]

That we all know that Lucario ES has no hitbox, so sometimes when the opponent its nearby the ledge to gimp or damage us or whatever he wants to do, i shoot AS or BAS to keep him away from the ledge so he cant get nearby or he have to do shield or take damage, this gives time to recover safely.
If im closer to the ledge i do Fairs but this is more situational and more risky. All of this if i can do it without falling to much because recovering from below its the worse situation.

 

[DrSoussou]

That we all know that Lucario ES has no hitbox, so sometimes when the opponent its nearby the ledge to gimp or damage us or whatever he wants to do, i shoot AS or BAS to keep him away from the ledge so he cant get nearby or he have to do shield or take damage, this gives time to recover safely.
If im closer to the ledge i do Fairs but this is more situational and more risky. All of this if i can do it without falling to much because recovering from below its the worse situation.

I understand. You just meant attacking the ledge to keep it safe to grab. I added it under Defense>Recovery>Position>Ledge.

Nice new avatar pic

 

[Konrad-QD]

Great guide! Could you add a section for strategies /ways of combating camping (nades, lasers, pikmin, eggs)?

 

[DMF~]

Yeah, I agree that a strategy section would be nice, but I also am sure that there are other threads about it. I'm always looking to hear new Lucario strategies so I can stop getting juggled in tourney

 

[Konrad-QD]

my point was that some projectiles force lucario to change his approach drastically. For example, you can't be free with your wave bounces/b tricks against falco because you will get hit by a laser when you try to do them even when you're far away from the falco. Moreover, whereas against most matchups you can have very good control of the direction lucario is facing, every time you get hit by a projectile from a character like falco, lucario will end up facing towards his opponent even if you b reversed to face backwards. I think this deserves a section in this guide because it demands a very specific method of movement from the lucario player.

 

[Masonomace]

INCOMING LONG POST~TL;DR​

Well done guide, but I have some more added points to add in if you want =(​

​

:OFFENSE:​

For -Air under :Approaching: (neutral position) under :Offense::​

• WBAS occurs around :27, but at :39 I thought was TBAS instead? Trela at :39 inputs BRASC but looks like a TBAS since he's on the ground. BR inputs differ varying if he's airborne or grounded. The difference between TBAS and BRASC in this moment of the video is he BRASC because he doesn't physically turnaround with control stick and then ASC.

• You could add under DD, if both lucario and opponent sit in shield, we can FH D-air twice and foot-jump their shield and D-air once or twice if we want to really shield poke them down, and if we REALLY wanna make it poking hell use our DJ D-air once or twice again possibly forcing them do spotdodge/roll or break their shield if they stay there.

my point was that some projectiles force lucario to change his approach drastically.

​

Yes we could use some more bonus options for approaching differently for certain character MU's just like Konrad said for the following for different camping setups used against us. An example of Konrad's following Falco MU explanation is:

Ground: we could B-reverse away or ASC in neutral position and then roll towards falco to close the gap and follow-up from here with whatever he reacts with. In this situation we are able to ASC and roll to dodge oncoming lasers but only roll when we need to in order to get our AS's bigger and beefier while choosing to be aggressive and safe at the same time. (Just an example)​

​

Air: If we use Falco as the same MU topic, we can AD > FF N-air for setting up an offensive wall to cover ourselves while we approach with caution but cross-up with SH F-air if we do so. Another way we can stay safe near the ground but being airborne is SH > AD > ASC a tiny amount and roll whenever we choose to dodge any oncoming lasers following up with another SH/FH aerial for walling if needed.(Just another example/scenario)​

​

For Edge-Hogs under :Gimps: under :Offense::​

• Add in Extreme-hogging with Edge-Hogging or for it's own bulletin not only as a AT but an option for quick gimp for most characters besides MK unless he capes for recovery. For any reason that we're too far away from edge-hogging someone, we can always rely on a well-practiced Extreme-hog for a long-range edge-hogging tool. Because I don't really see any related videos of this, I can upload a video of Extreme-hog How To video with description and statistics about it and of when and when not to use it.

For Stage Spike under :Gimps: under :Offense::​

• I feel you could add onto this portion of the guide that we can "gallop" the ledge aka Datt (Dash Attack) because we have a possibility of stage spiking characters who rely on high angled vertical recovery like G&W and Marth. The more likely reason Datt stage spikes is due to characters to release the ledge to DJ onto stage with an aerial. Watching them DJ we can input Datt and have a possible stage spike connect, the only drawback I know so far is Lucario's Datt's hitbubble is a tiny amount of height above the ground which doesn't make it guaranteed material, but it's a darn good option to consider especially for a quick dashing input possible stage spike kill.

For Force FFAD under AS under :Gimps: under :Offense::​

• Like I said earlier about adding in Extreme-Hogging, we can discuss it here also under AS because of the FCAS/FAS that will force them to DJ/FF/AD and force them to use their Special Recovery for last resort, where we can Extreme-Hog from a distance if we cannot run there in time to Edge-Hog their FF UP-B

:DEFENSE:​

For AS under -Air under :Spacing: under :Defense::​

• To add here preventing aerial assaults with spacing, I can provide info that lucario(we) have the ability to create space with our AS and become defensive at the same time. We can input a RARBRASC (Reverse Aerial Rush B Reversal Aura Sphere Charge) to create space between us, faking them out switching our offense to defense, and ASC at the same time being able to fire at will to create an obstacle to put up their defense.

For SHB-air under -Air under :Spacing: under :Defense::​

• I like how you want B-air to to linger as long as it can then FF for lack of our air vulnerability, but I wanted to add in that maybe we shouldn't since we can choose to DJ after our SHB-air and use any aerial here to cover all of our air space if they choose to prefer the air . We can retreat our SHB-airs and DJ away too if they get too aggressive in the air and ISJR our aerials for maintaining our aerial defense.

For -DI under Recovery under :Defense::​

• I like that you have the key aerials for DI purposes but maybe you might want to add more to Recovery topic with vertical momentum and horizontal momentum. If we get launched sideways we should F-air / D-air with a DJ D-air like your following video of Trela at 01:44. Likewise add in that we should DI vertical momentum with stage corner DI and F-air / D-air with TB-ASC>AD or DT for more momentum cancel.

For Ledge under -Position under Recovery under :Defense::​

• Great points here, I just wanted to add to it that our ES can literally bend and ledge-grab at any angle that's possible to do including high above the ledge. We can ES from every angle including over the stage. The video shows it but add that we can promote positioning if we D-air stall the air for oncoming high vertical aggressive Edge-guarding against lucario.

For -Jump under :Ledge: under :Defense::​

• Looks great and I'd like to add onto ledge jump options with a possibility of Jumping with DT can lead to anticipated smashes like lucario dittos, the other lucario will always want to F-smash the ledge-guarding the other cario, which sets up a perfect DT counter leading up to a possible KO etc. The Ledge-Jump > DT cancels most of our jump so the faster we DT OoJ from ledge the quicker we land on the stage. It's even possible to cancel our ledge jump so fast with DT we float off-ledge and float down to escape a frame trap/Smash/ KO move. If this ever happens we have options to regain ledge control and some stage recovering after a DT float. Most neutrals besides smashville have clingable surfaces that we can walljump to follow up with a B-air for defense spacing while still having a ES.

For -Hop under :Ledge: under :Defense::​

• To add under Ledge-hop > aerial: If the edge-guarding against us is too much pressure we can F-air twice after our ledge hop and space away back to grab ledge again. The exact inputs we have to do to make it successful would to: drop ledge > DJ forward DI > F-air > DI backwards > F-air (perferrably C-stick for this F-air) > grab ledge.

For Ledge-hop > shark under :Ledge: under :Defense::​

• Adding onto "sharking" other than Lylat being one of the safest stage to shark on, but that it's actually do-able on FD with an alternate version of multiple sharking. Simply ledge-grab and DJ into FD's lip to cling and wall-jump+U-air shark and float back towards the lip you just clung to, and repeat the sharking from here. No more than three clings and wall-jumps is your limit of sharking under FD's lip. The inputs for these sharking U-airs with TJ off GCC would be:

Cling>Wall-jump with control stick > U-air with control stick up+A > DI back towards lip > re-cling > REPEAT.​

• You can only do it 3 consecutive times before noticing you'll have less time to cling to the lip so don't waste any precious time clinging and waiting unless you're defensively sharking to Time someone out. Be sure to watch what your opponent does reacting to your sharking under stage, wall-jump forward and B-air for safe defensive wall to regain ledge frames. This sharking applies with PS1 as well, but is a lot riskier as lucario's ears point up higher close to the stage surface being vulnerable to a D-air hit-box to stage spike you to your doom, proceed with high caution sharking on PS1 walls.

For Ledge > Wall-jump AND Ledge-hop > TBASC under -Hop under :Ledge: under :Defense::​

• Adding to these both in one addition, some of SSBB ledges are wall-jumpable, we can follow up with this with our different variations of ASC's whether it be TB WB or BR for a super high recovering momentum changing approach to bring us to either FAS, ASC towards them, or AD to a aerial for ledge-hop guarding. Lucario can mix-up with D-air to cancel our wall-jumping ledge hop for another ledge grab refreshing frames, likewise we can TB WB or BR our FP's to offensively poke the air with a moderate ranged Flame.

For Ledge-hop > DT under -Hop under :Ledge: under :Defense::​

• Definitely not recommended, our counter isn't like Marth Ike or Peach, but we can Ledge-hop>D-air/F-air on stage and pray we input DT before they punish, IF our DT connects look at where you are and remember what stage you're playing on, depending on the stage we can reverse DT to safely wall-cling / wall-jump off stage lips and B-air our defenses up, or commence to shark if it seems right.

That's all to post from me, sorry for the length of the post.

 

[Masonomace]

Tried to shorten it as best I could, anymore adding on or typing would of made the rest of the text smaller to fit it. Luckily there was nothing else to comment on for adding since you covered a lot of it, again well-done guide Souss!

 

[Konrad-QD]

Great update!

 

[DrSoussou]

Thanks, Mason. I appreciate other players adding to the guide and I've edited a few things at your suggestion.

I couldn't find what you were talking about specifically with the WBAS video because my computer won't let me play them for some reason so I'll get back to that later and see what you meant.

I was hesitant to even discuss Double Dair options because they're so easily predictable and punished. Footstool->Dair is amazing, but too much Dair is always unsafe on shield because it can be shield-grabbed if not properly spaced above the opponent and it also teaches your opponent very quickly how to respond to it. They immediately learn the hitbox and begin to wait for one Dair to end and roll away before you input the next. Then you're free to be punished because the momentum cancel on Dair fixes lucario in place and they know exactly where to hit you.

All of your Falco-specific MU options were accurate and helpful but I tried to keep any MU details off the guide.

I love Extreme-hogging, but similar to 6x Dair on shield its simply not a valid option against opponents at high level, so I didn't give it too much attention in the guide. I believe I discussed it somewhere but I didn't want to make it seem like it was a worthwhile endeavor because it is very risky. Almost any time that Lucario would use ESH, dropping to the edge after a run is just as quick of an option and doesn't cost you a stock if you fail. The benefits are also not as high. Unless you know for sure that your opponent's last resort recovery will not reach the ledge before your ES, all you're doing is delaying their ability to return to the stage, but from a worse position than you would normally have by edge-guarding from the stage.

I'm nearly positive that Datt doesn't legitimately stage-spike, because the only hitbox that could connect from that range on either an opponent holding the ledge without invincibility or an opponent hopping from the ledge is the sour-spot, which sends the opponent up and behind Lucario with little knockback. I'll test it when I get the chance but even if it was legitimate its sill far more likely that your opponent's get-up attack will punish Lucario for trying it. At high level, no character really stage spikes that close so easily except maybe Ike and a few others...and definitely not against Marth or G&W.

RAR->BRASC is a very good option that I hadn't added and is starting to prove to be more and more reliable to me lately. I'm glad you mentioned it, thanks.

As far as spacing with Bair, I focused on landing with FF->reset because I was tailoring that section mostly towards neutral position and DJ is usually not a good idea. If you're controlling the space around you against your opponent who is performing similarly, DJ after bair will provide them with an easy opportunity to take control of further ground and possibly punish your landing. I'll add that DJ is a reactionary option if your opponent responds poorly to your initial SHBair. For example, they attack after your hitbox is gone and you DJ->Dair them.

I really hate talking about DI because Lucario's is very straight-forward and there are so many other DI instructional videos and guides out there that do a better job than I do, but I'll go ahead and add your suggestion.

I will specifically mention Dair stalling.

I reluctantly added DT as a ledge-hop option already because I think it works better than it does when used from a ledge-jump.

I like that 2x Fair, I'll add it.

Thanks again for reviewing the guide, I hope to have more time to review everyone else's additions and add what's necessary. There are many sections that I meant to add before publishing but I knew that if I didn't publish this at the time I did I may never have done it lol.

 

[LucarioMaster]

What is BRASC ? I'm lost.

 

[DrSoussou]

a B-reversed Aura-Sphere charge. a lot of the time I mix two abbreviations from the glossary, but they're all in there.

 

[LucarioMaster]

The simply reversed aurasphere ? and you say it's effective against Falco? Wut.

 

[Konrad-QD]

I was hesitant to even discuss Double Dair options because they're so easily predictable and punished. Footstool->Dair is amazing, but too much Dair is always unsafe on shield because it can be shield-grabbed if not properly spaced above the opponent and it also teaches your opponent very quickly how to respond to it. They immediately learn the hitbox and begin to wait for one Dair to end and roll away before you input the next. Then you're free to be punished because the momentum cancel on Dair fixes lucario in place and they know exactly where to hit you.

agreed, although sometimes you can use it as a mix up to someone who is predicting a ff AD into forcepalm or grab and tries to spot dodge as a counter. Ally does this a lot I noticed, but as you say it is very unsafe and your analysis of how it teaches opponents how to punish dair was very intelligently put.

All of your Falco-specific MU options were accurate and helpful but I tried to keep any MU details off the guide.

can't we add a category to describe options for countering characters with strong (or stronger) projectile games than us? Pit, Falco, diddy kong, etcet all have the ability to prevent us from wavebouncing because they can punish us at a distance and disrupt whatever orientation and momentum we were trying to create. I feel like that substantially changes the style I personally have to utilize to play against these characters, but maybe that's more a problem with me specifically.

I love Extreme-hogging, but similar to 6x Dair on shield its simply not a valid option against opponents at high level, so I didn't give it too much attention in the guide. I believe I discussed it somewhere but I didn't want to make it seem like it was a worthwhile endeavor because it is very risky. Almost any time that Lucario would use ESH, dropping to the edge after a run is just as quick of an option and doesn't cost you a stock if you fail. The benefits are also not as high. Unless you know for sure that your opponent's last resort recovery will not reach the ledge before your ES, all you're doing is delaying their ability to return to the stage, but from a worse position than you would normally have by edge-guarding from the stage.

Isn't extreme-hogging much faster than running and dropping to the ledge if you're far from the ledge already (if you're farther from the ledge that is)? I agree its risky if you give up stage control unnecessarily, but you could, in certain matchups, take advantage of lucario's invincibility frames to put pressure on someone who is recovering low. I've been trying to ESH into ledge drop, double jump nair which has yielded success for me in certain scenarios. I would encourage you to talk about it as an option that is potentially rewarding but potentially unsafe if done without care.

 

[Konrad-QD]

The simply reversed aurasphere ? and you say it's effective against Falco? Wut.

I believe noone was saying it is effective against falco in particular just as an option in general. Also we were talking about RAR: to BRASC which I assume is more or less the same thing as a wave bounce. Some people find that doing RAR to BRASC is easier as an input than WBASC (wave bounce aura sphere cancel).

 

[Konrad-QD]

also, if I could add my own little tiny suggestion, I thought under "ledge, hop" I have been using nair recently with a lot of reward. Let me explain the scenario specifically. Frequently, an opponent is near the ledge charging a smash when we ES to the ledge in case we overshoot and land on the stage. If that person wiffed that attack right at the same time that we grabbed the ledge AND is positioned close to the ledge I think ledge hop NAIR is a great option for the following reasons:

1) it is our fastest aerial (frame 6) that has a hit box that can inflict damage on someone who is on the ledge.
2) it is a very strong hit that, if successful will likely grant us easy access to subsequently get off the ledge and regain stage control because the opponent will be sent far away (assuming both he and I are at relatively high percents).
3) it can be spaced very safely depending on the situation. The scenario I just described SHOULD guarantee a hit because most smash attacks have at least 6 frames of lag more or less. BUT if we somehow hit the opponents shield, we should still be able to adjust the momentum of the nair such that we space away from any punishment and still have the opportunity to up B to the ledge. I'm envisioning that this would work similarly to a Nair out of shield.
4) we also have the option to land behind our opponent if we choose to nair to the stage. This is highly punishable and I would not recommend it, but should be stated as an option that could be useful depending on the situation.

Let me know what you think!

 

[DrSoussou]

All of the following assuming that your opponent is immediately at the edge of the stage and would just as easily be hit by a Nair as a Fair:

At lower opponent percents I think Fair is always the better option because it will GRANT you a free Nair afterwards upon landing if it connects. Using Nair here would not really benefit because it would not be able to be fastfalled, and your opponent could punish you afterwards because they won't be sent back very far.

At medium opponent percents I guess it would be a toss-up because Fair would no longer keep them in range for a follow-up Nair, and Fair does less damage. In this scenario, it would probably be best to use whichever move the opponent is less likely to expect.

At higher percents, you definitely need to take freshness into account. If you're having trouble getting the KO, keep Nair fresh and use Fair for the recovery. Unless your opponent is at 200% and Nair is fresh its not likely to kill them from across the stage anyway. If Nair is stale already then you may choose to use that instead since, as you said, it will deal more knockback than Fair and give you a better opportunity to regain stage control in a high % situation.

 

[Masonomace]

• Some more replying quote posts~ Note: Bold = Viable to consider

Thanks, Mason. I appreciate other players adding to the guide and I've edited a few things at your suggestion.

I love Extreme-hogging, but its simply not a valid option against opponents at high level, so I didn't give it too much attention in the guide. I believe I discussed it somewhere but I didn't want to make it seem like it was a worthwhile endeavor because it is very risky. Almost any time that Lucario would use ESH, dropping to the edge after a run is just as quick of an option and doesn't cost you a stock if you fail. The benefits are also not as high. Unless you know for sure that your opponent's last resort recovery will not reach the ledge before your ES, all you're doing is delaying their ability to return to the stage, but from a worse position than you would normally have by edge-guarding from the stage.

I'm nearly positive that Datt doesn't legitimately stage-spike, because the only hitbox that could connect from that range on either an opponent holding the ledge without invincibility or an opponent hopping from the ledge is the sour-spot, which sends the opponent up and behind Lucario with little knockback. I'll test it when I get the chance but even if it was legitimate its sill far more likely that your opponent's get-up attack will punish Lucario for trying it. At high level, no character really stage spikes that close so easily except maybe Ike and a few others...and definitely not against Marth or G&W.

Thanks again for reviewing the guide, I hope to have more time to review everyone else's additions and add what's necessary. There are many sections that I meant to add before publishing but I knew that if I didn't publish this at the time I did I may never have done it lol.[/quote]

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No problem Souss, thought I'd help out a little bit. Thanks for feedback

I can see where you're coming from with Extreme-hogging being risky and not very reliable at high level of competitive play, but high level of play or not it's still a AT worth using =). With experience and testing I find ESH is best used at mid-maxed range of Extreme-hogging successfully to make it greater than running the same distance>FF>ledge-grab for mainly 2 reasons/ways:

• One being that on frame 30 being a delay makes the timing even more crucial with spacing you leave away from the ledge purposely gives the opponent false hope and confidence you (we) will not try to approach him off-stage and that he will recover safely, this tactic makes characters with predictable recovery and tether characters feel especially comfortable only be ESH'd and die. Character List of Tether-related chars follow in order:Link / Sheik / TL / Samus / ZSS / IC's / Olimar/ Ivysaur. ZSS IC's and Olimar especially because of their stage control, great ground game, and our slightly worse MU's.

• Two being once they know you can grab ledge control from a distance they'll be cautious of you the rest of the game. Either choose to abuse this with aggressive edge-guarding / gimping, or continue to play pretend-nice messing with them as they recover and ESH the ledge every time they meet their standard recoverable pattern and ready yourself to use a punishing ledge-hop option upon their landing on stage. Forcing characters to recover higher than they want, to be punished.

Good News! Datt can legitimately stage-spike on most neutral stages like BF SV and Halberd's deck ; with either one or both hit-boxes of Datt. Testing it myself Lucario can stage-spike 9 out of 39 playable characters just ledge-holding, these following characters are: DK / Yoshi / MK(SWEET) / Olimar /Pikachu / Charizard / Jigglypuff / Ness / Lucas. An honorable mention is Mario for being a scratch away from almost being a stage-spike victim. We'll need to graph and calculate % of when our weak Datt will send them launching behind us from grabbing ledge, when weak Datt can stage-spike, strong Datt Stage-Spiking, and strong Datt KO'ing from Stage-Spiking. Also to note that we need to know percentage ranges of weak Datt knocking them off ledge but still under stage to FF and follow-up somehow.​

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Note: Sourspot Datt on some of the characters are a bit longer lasting hit-stun than others like Yoshi, allowing us to FF offstage and D-air at low percent as a follow-up for a "true stage-spiking combo".​

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Thank you again Souss! we can help you add including more topics relating to playing Offensively or Defensively =) Still got some more quoting to do. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________​

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Isn't extreme-hogging much faster than running and dropping to the ledge if you're far from the ledge already (if you're farther from the ledge that is)? I agree its risky if you give up stage control unnecessarily, but you could, in certain matchups, take advantage of lucario's invincibility frames to put pressure on someone who is recovering low. I've been trying to ESH into ledge drop, double jump nair which has yielded success for me in certain scenarios. I would encourage you to talk about it as an option that is potentially rewarding but potentially unsafe if done without care.

​

Despite ES's starting frame at 30, ES can still reach the ledge to ESH almost the exact same time as running FF grab. If you don't FF then they're around the exact same time. ESH at max distance to speed grab (the animation where you ES off the stage ledge and grab) is .2 millisecond(s) slower than a running FF ledge-grab. Which I JUST had a crazy thought at this moment of running and SH>ES to ledge-grab faster than a running FF grab. I'll requote if I find that my little theory works or not.​

​

Note: We can ESH to ledges from up-top nearby platforms, take BF for a prime example. It's almost easier to perform than grounded ESH. Just know the area on the platform to be at and just Input Control Stick Up+B & aim down, you'll bend/curve straight down towards the ledge snagging the ledge from a platform.​

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Thanks for Playing~​

 

[Konrad-QD]

All of the following assuming that your opponent is immediately at the edge of the stage and would just as easily be hit by a Nair as a Fair:

At lower opponent percents I think Fair is always the better option because it will GRANT you a free Nair afterwards upon landing if it connects. Using Nair here would not really benefit because it would not be able to be fastfalled, and your opponent could punish you afterwards because they won't be sent back very far.

At medium opponent percents I guess it would be a toss-up because Fair would no longer keep them in range for a follow-up Nair, and Fair does less damage. In this scenario, it would probably be best to use whichever move the opponent is less likely to expect.

At higher percents, you definitely need to take freshness into account. If you're having trouble getting the KO, keep Nair fresh and use Fair for the recovery. Unless your opponent is at 200% and Nair is fresh its not likely to kill them from across the stage anyway. If Nair is stale already then you may choose to use that instead since, as you said, it will deal more knockback than Fair and give you a better opportunity to regain stage control in a high % situation.

Actually, since fair has much less shield stun it doesn't combo into nair at low percents (0-10% for most characters). I got powershield-KO'd a lot for trying to assume that it does combo. Fair does combo at low to mid percents, but then at high percents fair has too much knockback to combo consistently into nair but has not enough knockback to guarantee a safe return to the stage.

I personally find ledge hop -> nair to be a really comfortable and easy input compared to fair. It is already faster than fair since it comes out frame 6 as opposed to 7, but it also sits better on the controller (you can drop then jump + A really easily). If you don't try to land on the stage it can be a very safe move. Worst case scenario you are in a position where you have to use your up B to either cling (if a clingable surface exists), grab the ledge, or go to the stage.There are no follow ups directly OOS since we will be spacing away from the opponent who is in fact shielding. Moreover, keep in mind I'm advising to use this specifically when you are confident that they cannot shield.

I wouldn't be concerned with lucario's move's freshness so much due to the aura mechanic. At least not with nair given that it is our standard combo move and go to punishing move for many situations (OOS, etcetera) and will have staled by the time lucario is at high percents anyway.

 

[Masonomace]

Recap: Datt has 2 different hitboxes that vary depending on which one connects first, with enough % on a ledge-holding / ledge-dropping / ledge-hopping character, we can Stage-Spike (SS)
Posting a quick little awesome message (cus idk where else to type something this interesting) that for more updates on Stage-Spiking with Datt, I'm figuring out that choosing YI (brawl) stage helps out our Datt sets up a new tactic Stage-Bouncing, where we will make them launch against the wall and be launched in front of us instead. We can Stage-Bounce at maximum 21 characters! Characters that can be stage-bounced are: (NOTE THIS IS FOR YI [ brawl ] ONLY)

• Mario
• Luigi
• Bowser
• DK
• Yoshi
• Wario
• IC's
• ROB
• Kirby
• MK
• DDD
• Olimar
• Falco
• Pikachu
• PT ( all 3 pokemon) Note: Only Charizard was affected by Datt SS on other normal Neutral stages)
• Jigglypuff
• Ness
• Lucas
• Mr. G&W

The original 9 in bold we're the only 9 to be affected by Datt SS on regular neutral stages, YI (brawl) affects 12 more characters. BUT YI's (brawl) effect of Datt connecting does not cause a stage spike unless the opponent DI's / SDI's downward or the side facing the stage. Normal launch without any DI input is a stage-bounce (SB) making them bounce off the wall either diagonally upward or sideways towards the blast-zone. If lauched diagonally upward they're affected by hit-stun setting us up for a perfect FH F-air string to gimp isn't that just the greatest thing?



( I feel like I should make my own thread about Datt stage spiking. I'm gonna have a lot of info on it pretty soon and something extra about D-smash )

 

[Masonomace]

oh and

I personally find ledge hop -> nair to be a really comfortable and easy input compared to fair. It is already faster than fair since it comes out frame 6 as opposed to 7, but it also sits better on the controller (you can drop then jump + A really easily). If you don't try to land on the stage it can be a very safe move. Worst case scenario you are in a position where you have to use your up B to either cling (if a clingable surface exists), grab the ledge, or go to the stage.There are no follow ups directly OOS since we will be spacing away from the opponent who is in fact shielding. Moreover, keep in mind I'm advising to use this specifically when you are confident that they cannot shield.

• I like the Ledge > hop N-air option quite a lot and we can follow-up with the option with the right stages to evolve our ledge > hop option into different things. Taking FD for example, we can Ledge-hop N-air and ES towards lip to plank / shark U-air / F-air and wall-jump B-air if we like to. Taking YI (brawl) for example, we can Ledge >hop N-air and free fall to a free cling right below ledge level being even safer than FD lip clinging, we can wall-jump or ES to ledge for invinci-frames if we so wanted to. The remaining neutral stages just require a ES to ledge or bend ES if we lose ledge control from a ledge grab / edge-hog.
  
  Edit: FD option is highly risky if we mess up since we sacrifice our DJ to ledge hop N-air.
  YI (brawl) option is pretty safe to do and perform by just holding back back towards the wall to cling.
  PS1 might possibly be another option of ES'ing to cling and stall (Even more risky than FD)

 

[Raiuz]

2 other things that came into my mind when reading the discussion about Extrem-hogging:
-We can cancel AS into ES, so when our opponent is offstage we could bait him with ASC to recover low und then just cancel AS > ES and Extreme-Hogg him, but I think it's pretty situational
-There's also the Extreme Stop, Masonomace talked about mixing up Extreme-Hogging und regulary edgeguarding, with Extreme Stop we have another option, we can pretend a Extreme-Hogg, cancel it and choose another option from there on to irritate our opponents even more. Problem is, if we mess it up we will die cause we go over the ledge, so it's also very situational

Both of these are gimmicky but it wanted to add them for the sake of completeness^^

 

[DrSoussou]

Hey guys, I haven't been on the boards at all this entire semester because I'm trying to graduate from UF (wooooo!), but I'm glad to see people continued to add suggestions to the guide while I was gone. Hopefully I can get back to editing this soon. Keep up the discussion!

 

[Konrad-QD]

Anything in particular you would like us to discuss?

 

[Raiuz]

I don't know if this was mentioned already but you can stage spike with Up Tilt if you stand backwards to the edge and your opponent is hanging on the ledge without invincibilty. Haven't tested on which characters and stages this is possible, but I remeber doing it to a Falco on PS1 and also SV I think.

 

[Masonomace]

That's interesting, considering U-tilt does have that starting hit-box reversed but anytime I ever attempted so they'd be "bopped" up a little. I can't say I've ever had a U-tilt stage spike before. Must have to do with how they DI or the amount of % they're at.