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RomanceDawn

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Anybody know if reverse up b is possible, and if so any tips on how to do it? I think if I can figure out how to do it Ridley's recovery becomes that much better since you could recover with the backwards up-diagonal angle, but I haven't managed to pull it off yet.
I say get good at B-reversing just to be able to do it but I have been finding a ton of success just recovering low as Ridley. Use Side-B if you are really far out and then just fly straight up with Up-B when you are close enough to the edge.

I've been finding that Ridley can actually recover very well.
 

SmashKeks

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It's kind of like how Incineroar's the heel wrestler pokemon yet in the anime he's portrayed as a face(heroic) wrestler used by one of ash's teachers that doesn't really come off as how the pokemon is usually described

nobody really thinks about this stuff too much...
To be fair to heels, professional wrestling is fake. No entirely fake, but the drama is 100% acting. I know that's not earth shattering to most people, but even then I have a source. My own dad does some local wrestling for a small west coast league. He's a real dastard when in his persona, but outside or wrestling he's the sweetest guy you'll ever meet.
 

~The Koopa King~

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To be fair to heels, professional wrestling is fake. No entirely fake, but the drama is 100% acting. I know that's not earth shattering to most people, but even then I have a source. My own dad does some local wrestling for a small west coast league. He's a real dastard when in his persona, but outside or wrestling he's the sweetest guy you'll ever meet.
still though how's that change the fact that incineroar is usually played up as a heel character except in the anime where his villainous persona is toned down to the point it doesn't exist?
 

OFY

Sonic main since 08'
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After about 40 hours on the character, I'd say he's a very solid character in terms of MU's. Zoning characters give him the hardest time like trying to get in on the Belmonts is a nightmare, but his side B helps a lot in that MU. Other characters with bad recoveries, you can just get one read with side B and force a recovery. His fair and bair are pretty good gimping tools once you read the low recovery or the double jump.

I think he excels the most at ledge trapping and setting up for it. Force the opponent to recover off stage with side b and start it. Ledge trapping is strong with his moveset, nair covers jump /normal getup and the timing of a shorthop nair can be used to get a punish on a roll. Fun fun character
 
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Porygon2

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
225
Not got the game. Can I finally get the consensus on his specials? What does sweetspot down b do on shield? What are the percentages for mashing out of side b? Is the up b clearly designed for ledge snapping/spiking?
 

SmashKeks

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still though how's that change the fact that incineroar is usually played up as a heel character except in the anime where his villainous persona is toned down to the point it doesn't exist?
Fair enough. I can see your point. I was noting something or someone portraying a heel being a nice big lug isn't unheard of, but I'll concede that that's thrown out the window if we don't see them acting as a heel at all. Duality and work vs. personal life and all that.
 

slamallama

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Man, that Joker announcement thread is getting ugly- people seem to hate this guy more than they hate Pirahna Plant. I don't get how any actual fan of Smash can blow up over one character in the face of the entire rest of the roster. Lots of them are saying they're disappointed in Ultimate's roster and Joker just makes it worse, which boggles my mind. If you've been a fan of any past Smash game's roster, I don't see how you could possibly be upset about Ultimate's, and if you are then frankly there's just no pleasing you. I understand wanting a character so badly that you're mad that they're not in- any fan of Ridley or K. Rool can relate to this. But if you're gonna trash the entire game over that one character not getting in (one guy was mad that Joker 'took Dixie's place'), and ignore the unbelievable amount of other great things in the game, it's time to give up on ANY game ever being good enough for you.

Ugh.

Gotta unwatch that thread and spend more time over here. Despite beings fans of a murderous, crazed pirate dragon, everyone here is happy and actually reasonable.
 
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AustarusIV

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People are just salty that it wasn't *insert personal most wanted character here* confirmed as DLC. Regardless of who gets added to Smash, there will always be at least one person who's upset that so-and-so character gets in the game before their personal favorite, ignoring what they could bring to the table or even the fact that people might actually like the character.

Me, personally, I'm elated for Joker. Persona 5 was one of my top favorite games of 2017 and the Persona series is a series that I cherish dearly from my teenage years. Joker was probably the best character they could add to Smash because of how stylish and visually stunning he is compared to past Persona protagonists, and there's so much flair you could get out of his Smash moveset. Once people start to get a good look at Joker in Smash once his gameplay trailer comes out (or just watch videos of him in P5), most of those detractors will come around to him. I swear it.

So anyways, Ridley! I've been playing as him a lot for the past couple days and I'm happy to see that I enjoy using him as much as I did when I tried out the E3 demos. He and Simon are going to be my new Smash favorites from here on out.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Man, that Joker announcement thread is getting ugly- people seem to hate this guy more than they hate Pirahna Plant. I don't get how any actual fan of Smash can blow up over one character in the face of the entire rest of the roster. Lots of them are saying they're disappointed in Ultimate's roster and Joker just makes it worse, which boggles my mind. If you've been a fan of any past Smash game's roster, I don't see how you could possibly be upset about Ultimate's, and if you are then frankly there's just no pleasing you. I understand wanting a character so badly that you're mad that they're not in- any fan of Ridley or K. Rool can relate to this. But if you're gonna trash the entire game over that one character not getting in (one guy was mad that Joker 'took Dixie's place'), and ignore the unbelievable amount of other great things in the game, it's time to give up on ANY game ever being good enough for you.

Ugh.

Gotta unwatch that thread and spend more time over here. Despite beings fans of a murderous, crazed pirate dragon, everyone here is happy and actually reasonable.
If we still didn’t have our character, you can bet we wouldn’t be as happy campers, though I still would’ve been more sold on Ultimate than SSB4 just on the concept of everyone is here/back.

I feel for Dixie Kong the most out of remaining 1st parties at this point who ought to have been in, but not much ya can really do. Taking it out on random DLC additions certainly isn’t gonna help your cause. Persona’s alright which I’m fine with having some content, tho makes me more curious as to who the other characters will be.

The thought of what some of our reception to Piranha Plant would be if we still didn’t have K. Rool and/or Ridley is admittedly painful, but as it is, plenty would argue that Ultimate has the best newcomer set we’ve gotten in awhile, even if you don’t like PP or Incineroar. I’m glad the people who always dumped on Incineroar’s design are now seething at him being in, on that note. Awesome Pokemon IMO. There are some small nitpicks even I have with Ultimate too, but yeah, I don’t know what to tell anyone whose mostly unhappy with the game. This is the Smash we’ve kinda all been waiting for.
 

TheTreasonousSnowmad

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People are just salty that it wasn't *insert personal most wanted character here* confirmed as DLC. Regardless of who gets added to Smash, there will always be at least one person who's upset that so-and-so character gets in the game before their personal favorite, ignoring what they could bring to the table or even the fact that people might actually like the character.

Me, personally, I'm elated for Joker. Persona 5 was one of my top favorite games of 2017 and the Persona series is a series that I cherish dearly from my teenage years. Joker was probably the best character they could add to Smash because of how stylish and visually stunning he is compared to past Persona protagonists, and there's so much flair you could get out of his Smash moveset. Once people start to get a good look at Joker in Smash once his gameplay trailer comes out (or just watch videos of him in P5), most of those detractors will come around to him. I swear it.

So anyways, Ridley! I've been playing as him a lot for the past couple days and I'm happy to see that I enjoy using him as much as I did when I tried out the E3 demos. He and Simon are going to be my new Smash favorites from here on out.
Or people think their characters deserve the spot more, and if they're first party characters, the probably do. Don't forget that Smash doesn't always include the most important Nintendo characters (I can think of one HUGELY glaring omission up until Ultimate in particular, BIG even), so try and see things from their perspective and sympathetically reason with them instead of crying out "salt."
 

slamallama

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Or people think their characters deserve the spot more, and if they're first party characters, the probably do. Don't forget that Smash doesn't always include the most important Nintendo characters (I can think of one HUGELY glaring omission up until Ultimate in particular, BIG even), so try and see things from their perspective and sympathetically reason with them instead of crying out "salt."
I can see their perspective, up to a point. Like I said, I understand being mad that a character isn't in. I was crushed back in Sm4sh when my two most wanted prospects- Chrom and Dark Samus- were relegated to cameo roles. But, especially with all the other great stuff Ultimate has besides just the roster (story mode, 103 stages with beautifully updated graphics, 900+ music tracks, real Classic Mode, Spirits mode with 1300+ unique battles) there comes a point where the good stuff should outweigh the stuff you're upset about. Everyone of course has a right to their opinion, but I personally cannot understand people who are letting one or two roster absences ruin the entire game for them. I sympathize with DK fans who want Dixie in, and I understand even wanting her more than K. Rool... but come on, we got K. Rool. Don't let the fact that Dixie still isn't in ruin what is in.
 
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AustarusIV

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Or people think their characters deserve the spot more, and if they're first party characters, the probably do. Don't forget that Smash doesn't always include the most important Nintendo characters (I can think of one HUGELY glaring omission up until Ultimate in particular, BIG even), so try and see things from their perspective and sympathetically reason with them instead of crying out "salt."
I understand getting disappointed if your most wanted character doesn't get in (pretty sure we've all been there at some point), but honestly, that's still no reason to point fingers at and attack whoever happens to get in as a character. It does nothing but cause divisions and even further resentment in the fanbase.

There's a lot of factors that go into whether a character is included or not, and some characters unfortunately bear the brunt of the blame when they get in before others, even if they had absolutely no bearing on their chances.
 

NintenRob

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My issue with Joker is it suggests a direction with DLC that does not really appeal to me at all. Plus I have high standards when it comes to third party characters, Joker doesn't even come close. Heck I can't even see what he's like because his game never came to switch (an issue I had with Cloud until recently)


I want to be able to experience these characters on the system I own.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Apart from Nintendo sleeping on some of its own characters, there's always going to be someone remaining that fans will find reason to be upset with not being included. That's just the kind of behemoth Smash is now & has been for awhile. I definitely do sympathize with some characters and their supporters, like Isaac, and Dixie as previously mentioned, but unlike other characters in general, we had the burden of having to try and prove for years and years that Ridley could work as a playable fighter, even when Sakurai didn't think so at first for awhile, and were thusly often ostracized from the character support/speculation community; sympathy for us be damned when the outside thought/consensus was usually "Sakurai spoke, you're wrong, give up". Any remaining character hopefuls can at least be thankful they don't have to go through that.
 

StormC

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The funniest part of that whole thread is people saying they had never heard of Persona 5 before or the Persona series in general. I don't know if you could live in a Nintendo bubble anymore than that.

I won't deny I'd be pretty upset at Joker if K. Rool/Ridley weren't in... but they're in. So what's the point of being mad? While I'd like Dixie and Bandana Dee from first parties, I'm not going to act like every character that gets in is an insult to them. After waiting so long to get the big lizards, I don't have it in me to get angry at Smash like I did before, you can't always get what you want. Joker's a cool addition and I'm looking forward to seeing how he's implemented.

At least Joker isn't being sold to us as the "ballot winner."
 
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CaptainAmerica

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The funniest part of that whole thread is people saying they had never heard of Persona 5 before or the Persona series in general. I don't know if you could live in a Nintendo bubble anymore than that.
It may not be a Nintendo bubble. It may just be an I-don't-have-a-playstation bubble.
Source: someone who has usually stuck to Xbox, not because of fanboying but just because that's the system I've always had my accounts on, someone who doesn't much care for JRPGs or anime much, and someone who mostly sticks to series I know unless I'm at a friend's house who's playing something new, which doesn't really happen anymore.

I've literally never heard of that series before this announcement. Honestly, there are a lot of series people throw around that I've never heard of, and most of them are JRPGs. I don't really watch game awards shows, so something winning GOTY is not a reliable indicator whether or not people have heard of it. Most awards shows are just dog-and-pony anyway, not a reliable indicator of iconicness - ask most people who all of the nominees were for Best Picture three years ago.

I am curious as to what we'll get in terms of DLC, but I'm not going to buy the pass unless they come out with someone who will hype me enough for it. Otherwise, I'll wait and see the character and stage first. I usually am not a fan of guest fighters in games save for a select few characters I really like - and I don't really see any of them happening. Still, I got a bunch of great characters in, but I'll always wish for Tails and Dovahkiin.
 

StormC

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It may not be a Nintendo bubble. It may just be an I-don't-have-a-playstation bubble.
Source: someone who has usually stuck to Xbox, not because of fanboying but just because that's the system I've always had my accounts on, someone who doesn't much care for JRPGs or anime much, and someone who mostly sticks to series I know unless I'm at a friend's house who's playing something new, which doesn't really happen anymore.

I've literally never heard of that series before this announcement. Honestly, there are a lot of series people throw around that I've never heard of, and most of them are JRPGs. I don't really watch game awards shows, so something winning GOTY is not a reliable indicator whether or not people have heard of it. Most awards shows are just dog-and-pony anyway, not a reliable indicator of iconicness - ask most people who all of the nominees were for Best Picture three years ago.

I am curious as to what we'll get in terms of DLC, but I'm not going to buy the pass unless they come out with someone who will hype me enough for it. Otherwise, I'll wait and see the character and stage first. I usually am not a fan of guest fighters in games save for a select few characters I really like - and I don't really see any of them happening. Still, I got a bunch of great characters in, but I'll always wish for Tails and Dovahkiin.
If you don't play JRPGs then not hearing about Persona 5 is a bit more understandable, but it was easily one of the most talked about games last year. The battle theme video has over 10 million views, with its boss battle music having over 12 million, it sold over two million copies in its first year, and generated one of the biggest memes last year, with this Simpsons version probably being the most well known. The title definitely left a footprint in gaming culture.
 
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BravadoMan_13

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My thoughts on Joker (Persona)
I have heard of the Persona series before and I have heard some tracks posted on SupraDarky's channel. The instances I've seen Joker is through somebody's sig and I'm trying to remember who it was. It would be a dream if we could possibly get Dixie and Banjo for DLC so we'll see how that goes.

I've been playing Ultimate when I have the time and I have not unlocked Ridley yet. But when I do, I'm going to celebrate and shed some tears of joy. I love this game.
 

ChronoBound

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I have a lot to say now that I actually have Ultimate and have played as Ridley.

However, since the topic is on Joker and the kind of backlash to him, I will put my two cents in. I think the backlash is due to a few things:

1. The expectation that third-party characters need to have a major pedigree in order to be added in (excluding characters that are technically third-party like Geno). Persona has a cult following for sure, and it has gotten bigger with every installment but the only third-party franchise on the roster you could argue that its bigger than for gaming as a whole is Bayonetta.

2. For a lot of fans of recent Nintendo characters ( ARMS characters and Rex & Pyrra in particular), they were told that their characters were not able to make the roster due to it being decided back in 2016. However, Joker, a character introduced at around the same time as those characters gets the first DLC pick while Rex and Spring Man get relegated to Mii costumes.

3. The statements following Joker's unveil. It seemed to heavily imply that all of the DLC characters we will be getting will be third-party. Keep in mind while there are a lot of popular third-party requests, Smash Bros. is still seen as a mostly Nintendo thing by many fans. The fact that all the DLC is likely going to be all third-party (and even third-party characters that barely have a connection to Nintendo) is a sign to many long time fans that the series has lost sight of its roots.

4. The implied connotation that most of the DLC characters are going to be "shock" unveils. There are pleasant "shock" and unpleasant "shock". Simon Belmont was a pleasant surprise for many, while Piranha Plant was an example of the latter for many. When Reggie said Joker to be an example of the rest of the DLC characters we will be getting, that does not come as a good omen especially after following Piranha Plant. They are worried that these characters on top of all being third-party, will have barely any connection to Nintendo and/or simply be added for "shock value".

I think that summarizes what the grievances with Joker are. I would also add some think the characters is a little too "green" for a third-party character added to Smash Bros.

Personally, I do not care about Joker's addition (I am neutral on him since I know little on him or his source material). I am extremely happy with what I got the base game's content, and I would not have minded if there was no DLC for Ultimate at all. I will say it is a bit of a shame that the DLC will all follow the same theme ("shock" third-party characters), but there is nothing to be done with that.
 
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EchoesOfRain

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 11, 2014
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142
On the topic of joker...I personally have no connection to him. Never played persona, never watched it. I'm sad that it looks like there's no more kirby reps on the way...but I have no issues with joker. I understand how important he is to a ton of people, and I'm really happy that he's in just for that. I'm also excited for the direction that dlc is going in and cant wait for more info (just please, no minecraft...)

Incineroar was mentioned earlier. I actually hated his design, it looked ugly and awkward. However, sakurai managed to work his magic. He really brought life to the pokemon that wasn't in the pokemon games! His pose, attitude, and awkwardly large fingers work in a way that looks good and makes sense. I actually love it now, ty sakurai

And back to Ridley. I've never had that character that I can just play continuously forever and ever, but Ridley finally is that character for me. I love him. He definitely has an issue here and there, but I'm having a blast playing as him and can only hope I manage to get really good :)
 

Ridley_Prime

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Yeah, I get being disappointed with the direction the DLC/fighter pass seems to be going, but when most of the major 1st parties are finally in, it’s something I can live with. That said, the Nintendo purism in the community when it comes to even very iconic 3rd parties brought up (at least a couple of whom I’d still like to have) is something I look at less and less fondly now. If Nintendo itself sees so and so 3rd party as being more profitable for DLC than some of their own remaining characters, they probably have a good idea of what to expect, and Joker will no doubt sell well despite some naysayers, though I’m indifferent to him.
 

StormC

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The thing with Persona is it's part of the Megami Tensei franchise (despite attempts by some fans to downplay this), which is a series that has roots going back to the NES. Nintendo even addressed this in their press release:

The Persona games are a spinoff of the popular Shin Megami Tensei franchise, which has a long and storied history in the world of video games – with many of the games appearing on Nintendo systems.
In a way, it's a similar situation to Cloud: JRPG series that started on the NES but is represented by its most iconic and popular character whose game was not released for Nintendo. Obviously Cloud and FF7 are way bigger than Joker and Persona 5, and Joker's inclusion surely breaks all sorts of "rules" about third parties in Smash, but I think DLC will just always be a special case due to Nintendo wanting to attract headlines and sell marketable characters.

What I find encouraging about this is that it means the DLC won't just be a bunch of boring corporate picks aimed to push Nintendo software and try to market to broad general audiences. Joker isn't niche but he isn't a generic choice either. It also shows Sakurai might have more influence than what was once thought; the way I see it, Nintendo probably told Sakurai he could pick an Atlus/SMT character due to their good relationship with Nintendo (SMTV being in development and all), and Sakurai landed on Joker, being a big fan of Persona 5. I'm excited for what this could mean for DLC choices if they're as fun and crazy as this one. Then again, I'm a fan of the Persona series, so I might be biased. I'm sure if I was do-or-die for characters like Isaac or Toad I would see this character as an insult, but at this point, I have 95% of what I could ask for out of a Smash roster. I'm happy to let them go nuts.

It would be funny though if Piranha Plant turned out to be the last Nintendo newcomer for the forseeable future.
 

Diem

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I think it might be a little early to predict what's to come based off of Joker alone. I erroneously assumed that we'd be getting Isaac and Geno based on how we got Ridley, Simon, and K. Rool, but then we ended up with Isabelle and Incineroar.

However, the difference here is that characters like Isabelle and Incineroar can be sold within the package of the other high-profile newcomers in the base game. DLC characters need to be big and popular enough to sell on their own. Dixie Kong isn't going to sell or send shockwaves as well as, say, Master Chief.

Knowing that the primary characters I've wanted for years have basically no chance, I've learned to just be happy for other people when their character gets confirmed, or be excited when a really crazy character is announced. I've never played Street Fighter, Final Fantasy, Bayonetta, Donkey Kong, or Persona. But all those characters getting announced got me pumped regardless, because I know they're big deals for other people and crazy announcements in general, so it was cool to see it happen.

As such, I thought the Joker announcement was pretty cool. I've heard and seen enough about Persona 5 to know that it's massively popular and loved. I've listened to its soundtrack, too, so I'm excited for the music that it'll bring. I might actually pick up the game if it goes on sale again sometime; it's gone for a low price a couple of times recently, but I haven't had the spare money for it.

What I'm most glad about, though, is that the terrible train of though some people had about who the DLC picks would be is over. So many people though the DLC characters would be an odd assortment of corporate advertisements, like that Katalina character from that Granblue Fantasy game, a mobile game from a company Nintendo is currently partnered with. Now we can talk about characters that actually might make sense.

The only crazy third-party character would get me bouncing off the walls would be, well, Master Chief. Which, after Joker, is more likely than it used to be. He's a character who's completely PlayStation exclusive and only included because his game is so mega popular. Master Chief is Microsoft's biggest characters and a gaming icon, and would fit with what the expectation for DLC characters seems to be now. He's probably the only character who would be big enough to blow up the internet, but also unexpected enough to be a complete surprise.

I'd say he and Banjo Kazooie have about equal chance because of that, should Nintendo sit with Microsoft for one of the characters. Banjo is more requested and would still be a huge deal in his own right, but Master Chief would be completely unexpected, whereas Banjo Kazooie would be less surprising. People keep saying Steve, but he's a hollow character without a personality, so I don't think he'd be valid for a DLC pick. Not to mention that music will be necessary for the package, and Minecraft's music isn't exactly that renowned.

I don't care for the speculation discussions anymore, now that the game is out. I just want to play the game and have fun.

~~~

Speaking of fun, I'm having a blast with Ridley. After years of having my characters be technical (Toon Link, R.O.B., Samus, Mega Man, Snake, etc.), it's nice to play a much more straightforward character. His only weird move is his Down-B, which I actually managed to land on a human player in a 1v1, so it's not impossible. Oh, his Up-B is also weird, and I can see why they designed it the way they did, but I'm kind of holding out hope they'll tweak it to make it less awkward.

I'm loving Dark Samus as well, but I'm glad to have Ridley as a secondary. When there's a job that needs to be handled aggressively and quickly, Ridley's the man.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Oh, by the way, my stance is currently "They can add whatever, just make it look cool, I'm already satisfied!" Only disappointment was K.Rool but turns out his trailer was just godawful and made him look boring instead of showing off how he's the goddamn Juggernaut
 

TheTreasonousSnowmad

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I agree that no one should be practically rioting, but I think we all know that it can wear on your soul when you love a character enough, you know they deserve to get in, and then they get left at the wayside for someone who, relative to Nintendo at least, is a nobody, or some flavor of the day. In Smash 4, I personally didn't have any characters I could identify with and if K. Rool, or at least Dark Samus hadn't been added to this game, I probably wouldn't have bought it. After 5 games of having no characters that you really look upon with fondness, I can imagine being dissatisfied with a game, especially when things like singleplayer are trivial to you and you just want to see your favorite character in.
 
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StormC

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I agree that no one should be practically rioting, but I think we all know that it can wear on your soul when you love a character enough, you know they deserve to get in, and then they get left at the wayside for someone who, relative to Nintendo at least, is a nobody, or some flavor of the day. In Smash 4, I personally didn't have any characters I could identify with and if K. Rool, or at least Dark Samus hadn't been added to this game, I probably wouldn't have bought it. After 5 games of having no characters that you really look upon with fondness, I can imagine being dissatisfied with a game, especially when things like singleplayer are trivial to you and you just want to see your favorite character in.
I don't imagine most of the people upset have no characters they like in the game. The roster is made up of over 70 characters from almost every major Japanese video game franchise under the sun. Like I doubt the people hoping for Isaac or Bandana Dee or Dixie don't have fondness for ANY of the cast. Even as someone who was disappointed with Smash 4, there were still quite a few newcomers in it I really enjoyed (especially Mega Man and Cloud), and several veterans that I enjoyed coming back to (particularly the new and improved Bowser). While I could maybe understand if none of the newcomers were to their taste, if the biggest crossover in video game history doesn't have any characters at all for them to enjoy, then they probably don't play many games.

Plus, these types of characters can introduce people to new series. I initially hated the idea of Snake in Brawl, but the codecs showed me how crazy and fun his series is, and I later found myself playing and loving his games. If you told me back in 2006 after being mad at the inclusion of Snake in my precious Nintendo crossover, that he would later become my all time favorite video game character with Metal Gear Solid being my favorite game, I'd laugh it off.
 

slamallama

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I don't imagine most of the people upset have no characters they like in the game. The roster is made up of over 70 characters from almost every major Japanese video game franchise under the sun. Like I doubt the people hoping for Isaac or Bandana Dee or Dixie don't have fondness for ANY of the cast. Even as someone who was disappointed with Smash 4, there were still quite a few newcomers in it I really enjoyed (especially Mega Man and Cloud), and several veterans that I enjoyed coming back to (particularly the new and improved Bowser). While I could maybe understand if none of the newcomers were to their taste, if the biggest crossover in video game history doesn't have any characters at all for them to enjoy, then they probably don't play many games.

Plus, these types of characters can introduce people to new series. I initially hated the idea of Snake in Brawl, but the codecs showed me how crazy and fun his series is, and I later found myself playing and loving his games. If you told me back in 2006 after being mad at the inclusion of Snake in my precious Nintendo crossover, that he would later become my all time favorite video game character with Metal Gear Solid being my favorite game, I'd laugh it off.
This was my point. Of course, you can be disappointed that a character isn't in while someone you've never heard of is, but it's on you if you're gonna let it ruin the whole game for you. If your mindset on the subject is "but I want X character, so therefore Y character is trash," then you're setting yourself up to never be happy with the game. Like I said awhile back, I take issue with a lot of aspects of Sm4sh, the roster being just one. But it still had redeeming qualities that made me decide it was worth playing. Plus, it's rude to show up where people are getting excited about Joker just to dump on him for not being what you expected/wanted.

Also some guy in the Joker thread literally said "Let's just hope the other four are actually good characters" and when people defended Joker he actually just said, "Yeah but I don't care." It's this kind of attitude that's making the speculation toxic, the idea that if it isn't exactly what you have on your personal wishlist, then it's objectively bad. I know there'd be disappointment here in the Ridley fanbase if he were still out, but I like to believe we'd be better than everyone who's tearing into the game for one letdown among a slew of great features.
 
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StormC

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Also some guy in the Joker thread literally said "Let's just hope the other four are actually good characters" and when people defended Joker he actually just said, "Yeah but I don't care." It's this kind of attitude that's making the speculation toxic, the idea that if it isn't exactly what you have on your personal wishlist, then it's objectively bad. I know there'd be disappointment here in the Ridley fanbase if he were still out, but I like to believe we'd be better than everyone who's tearing into the game for one letdown among a slew of great features.
When Cloud was announced, I was so excited because FF7 is one of my all time favorite games, despite being outraged and saddened by the K. Rool costume during the very intense ballot campaign. I didn't look at Cloud and think "why aren't you K. Rool?" I would see comments on other sites being mad that Cloud isn't XYZ, K. Rool being one of them, and it made me realize how important it is to keep a healthy perspective on these things. Overall I've been pretty damn blessed by the Smash roster and I can't ask for much more. I'm holding a torch for Banjo-Kazooie for this Fighter Pass, but if they don't get in, my reaction will be mostly an "oh well" thing. Getting a third party character in, especially one like Banjo, is so much more complicated and tricky than any of us can possibly imagine, that it's a borderline miracle whenever we do get a third party character, and I'm fine with accepting that.
 

Diem

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I don't imagine most of the people upset have no characters they like in the game. The roster is made up of over 70 characters from almost every major Japanese video game franchise under the sun. Like I doubt the people hoping for Isaac or Bandana Dee or Dixie don't have fondness for ANY of the cast. Even as someone who was disappointed with Smash 4, there were still quite a few newcomers in it I really enjoyed (especially Mega Man and Cloud), and several veterans that I enjoyed coming back to (particularly the new and improved Bowser). While I could maybe understand if none of the newcomers were to their taste, if the biggest crossover in video game history doesn't have any characters at all for them to enjoy, then they probably don't play many games.
A YouTuber I watch made a point that the more characters are in the game, the more people have a reason to be angry. Because at this point, for some people, it could be "There's 77 characters in the game, and they couldn't pick just one that I really wanted?"

It's been that way for me for a while, since my top two were Dark Samus and Chibi-Robo. The difference is, I recognize how obscure and unpopular those characters are, relatively speaking, so I was never indignant that they weren't in the game. It was just like "That's disappointing, but I can't complain." Despite being a Smash player for 15-16 years, there's never been a character that I've really loved. R.O.B. was a character I didn't know I wanted and then came to be my favorite in the cast, but he was no Dark Samus or Chibi-Robo.

Safe to say, I'm very, very happy with recent developments.

Although even if that wasn't the case, I was already sold on the game just from "Everyone Is Here!" alone. Every time I played Smash 4, I lamented how close it was to having every character, missing only a handful from Melee and Brawl. If I had to just keep playing R.O.B., Dedede, and Samus indefinitely, that'd be fine, because now I could maybe throw Snake, Young Link, and Pichu into the mix. The amount of content in Ultimate outside of new characters is so massive that my enjoyment wouldn't be hindered by the lack of any new or wanted characters.

Makes me wonder what so many other people are playing Smash for. If their enjoyment depends on X character being put into the game, how have they been playing Smash up to this point? They had to at least enjoy some characters that are already in the game.
 

Giga Kaiju

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Reminds me of that meme involving the flavors with Joker being DLC.

"ALL OF THESE FLAVORS (CHARACTERS) AND YOU CHOSE TO BE SALTY~ (FOR JOKER)"

:bowser:.
 

StormC

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Makes me wonder what so many other people are playing Smash for. If their enjoyment depends on X character being put into the game, how have they been playing Smash up to this point? They had to at least enjoy some characters that are already in the game.
There is something to be said about how all-consuming Smash character speculation can be, and how it colors a person's perception of the game. I didn't get into this sort of thing until the Smash Dojo back in 2007, so while I was able to enjoy games like Melee perfectly fine without worrying about who got in, it's also enhanced how I appreciate the new Smash games. Despite the fact that I've spent 60 dollars on games I enjoy far less than Smash, a Smash game where zero newcomers that were on my wishlist get in might give me some pause before buying it. Literally every game, I get someone from my top 5 newcomer wishlist, without fail, but funnily enough, only two:

Brawl: Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Mega Man, Ridley, Samurai Goroh
4: King K. Rool, Mega Man, Ridley, Palutena, Dixie Kong
Ultimate: King K. Rool, Ridley, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Ganon

Not counting characters that I generally enjoy that don't necessarily make it on to this list. None of these five make it into Ultimate and I would be left with pretty much the veterans to sustain myself on hype, namely Snake and Wolf returning. I'd still enjoy the hell out of the game, but it would feel like something is missing, like in Smash 4 but even moreso. Now I don't really think that's the case - at least, the characters that are missing aren't as glaring as Smash 4.

Now with almost all of my longtime character requests granted, I'll be happy to be more emotionally removed from speculation.
 
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Ridley_Prime

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Guess I don’t have much more to add to the earlier topic, but after seeing this just shortly after getting back home, have to say I think he’s shaping up to be a decent character for Smash.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Think the learning curve with him is kinda the main reason he’s being slept on even by some fans and such, and we’re still figuring things out, but I like what’s being discovered so far.
 

MasterOfKnees

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I think part of the problem is that, as always, the Smash fanbase has this idea of newcomers taking other potential characters' slots, and that in the case of Ultimate's DLC that perception has only gotten stonger due to us knowing that we're getting 5 characters exactly. In a sense a character is only ever up against itself, we Ridley fans know this better than anyone else, if a character still isn't in despite years of demand, then there's probably a reason for that which goes beyond being underprioritized. People don't understand this though, and I expect that the fanbase will only get more and more tense by every announcement.

I do have sympathy for people who feel like they haven't gotten a newcomer they really really like yet though, because I was in that situation with Smash 4. Mega Man was the only newcomer I loved from a fan perspective, but I always knew his playstyle was going to be far off from what I enjoyed, and beyond that I only had a passing interest in Greninja. And yes, the veterans were still all good and fun to play, but there is something special about having a newcomer that you're just dying to play as, and having to wait 10 years to get that feeling again was a downer. At the end of Smash 4 the only newcomer from that game that was in my top 15 most played characters was Lucina, a clone, so I really do get it.

At the same time though it's important to realize that if your opinion on the whole newcomer selection depends on just one or two characters getting in at this point, then you were always going to be hard to please, and even if the one character that you're missing is your absolute favorite, chances are that you've been quite fortunate with roster additions previously. At the end of the day I still played Smash 4 a lot, and even though I did like it, if I really think back on its issues, then Ridley not being in it wouldn't even top the list, just like it didn't with Brawl. Hell, Brawl had by far my favorite newcomer roster, but I still consider it a significantly worse game than both its predecessor and successor. Newcomers are the most exciting part of Smash, but it's not necessarily the most important, so I've come to understand that a specific one not being in doesn't warrant the kind of reaction that I had post-Smash 4, or that some people are having now.

That's not to say people aren't allowed to be disappointed, I'm still disappointed by Smash 4's newcomer roster, everyone is entitled to their opinion and so forth, but when a person gets actually aggressive over a newcomer being chosen over their favorite, then it's both misguided and crosses the line of acceptable behaviour.
 
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StormC

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My main thing with Smash 4 is the game didn't really have an identity or a core theme to present. Melee expanded the scope of the series in a massive way while Brawl added on a ton of new modes and content. Smash 4 was just kinda "another Smash game" for the most part. 5-8 player was a cool addition but I basically never played it because of how busy and impractical it is, but overall the game was compromised thanks to being split across two versions, and the lack of solid single player really made it feel barebones. Ultimate's single player is a huge step up and I'm extremely appreciative of that.

Nicest thing I can say about Smash 4 is it was easy to go online and just grind out some matches on For Glory. Not really liking Ultimate's so far at all and it's by far my biggest issue with the game and my only genuine disappointment. Maybe they can fix it up but I have my doubts. I doubt I'll get anywhere near as many hours in Ultimate as Smash 4 because of the lackluster online, unfortunately (I very rarely got to play locally with people).

Before Ultimate, I'd put Smash 4 above Brawl still because of the better gameplay and (semi) improved online options despite the disappointing newcomer roster, but I do have a lot of nostalgia for Brawl speculation that definitely rose tints my view of the game a bit, I remember replaying the first three Smashes before 4 and going from Melee gameplay to Brawl was genuinely jarring. I don't think I would ever pick it up again anytime soon but I look upon my time with it more fondly than Smash 4 despite playing it less, and Subspace Emissary was flawed as hell but genuinely entertaining and memorable. Ultimate just really makes it obvious how lacking Smash 4 was and it's harder to rate it as highly as I might've when it was sort of the "best by default" option. I'm having a great time with World Of Light, and although it lacks the sense of narrative you got from SSE, I find the gameplay overall better, especially since there is

a New Game+, which definitely gives me incentive to replay it, unlike SSE where I never had much urge to revisit it despite enjoying it.

Ultimate > Melee > Brawl > 4 > 64
 
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Diem

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There is something to be said about how all-consuming Smash character speculation can be, and how it colors a person's perception of the game. I didn't get into this sort of thing until the Smash Dojo back in 2007, so while I was able to enjoy games like Melee perfectly fine without worrying about who got in, it's also enhanced how I appreciate the new Smash games. Despite the fact that I've spent 60 dollars on games I enjoy far less than Smash, a Smash game where zero newcomers that were on my wishlist get in might give me some pause before buying it. Literally every game, I get someone from my top 5 newcomer wishlist, without fail, but funnily enough, only two:

Brawl: Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Mega Man, Ridley, Samurai Goroh
4: King K. Rool, Mega Man, Ridley, Palutena, Dixie Kong
Ultimate: King K. Rool, Ridley, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Ganon

Not counting characters that I generally enjoy that don't necessarily make it on to this list. None of these five make it into Ultimate and I would be left with pretty much the veterans to sustain myself on hype, namely Snake and Wolf returning. I'd still enjoy the hell out of the game, but it would feel like something is missing, like in Smash 4 but even moreso. Now I don't really think that's the case - at least, the characters that are missing aren't as glaring as Smash 4.

Now with almost all of my longtime character requests granted, I'll be happy to be more emotionally removed from speculation.
I guess it has to do with the fact that my only time in the speculation chamber was this year, from June to now. I didn't participate in online discussions for Smash until this year, despite playing the series for over 15 years. I guess because it's always just been more of a family thing in my experience, so I didn't feel a need to discuss it. But Ultimate was so exciting after E3 that I had to find an outlet for it.

And like I've said, basically since Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Dark Samus was the character I wanted in Smash above all else, and I knew it wouldn't happen in Ultimate based on what was presented at E3. But then there was all the circumstantial evidence, and boom, less than two months later, it actually happened. So I was in for less than 2 months, and then I was out. All I cared about from that point onwards was that the other long-time requests, like K. Rool, Geno, and Isaac got granted, for other people's sake and for the sake of putting all these other quests to rest.

At least now the game is out, so discussion isn't solely speculative, adn we can actually talk about the damn game itself. When things slowed down in the Character Discussion board, I went to the General Discussion thread to talk, and after the November Direct, I was hoping people would finally start talking about the actual game, but any news or discussion about modes, features, etc. was buried under the "leaker" of the week discussions about characters that made no sense.

Glad to come here to talk about Ridley and the actual game again.

My main thing with Smash 4 is the game didn't really have an identity or a core theme to present. Melee expanded the scope of the series in a massive way while Brawl added on a ton of new modes and content. Smash 4 was just kinda "another Smash game" for the most part. 5-8 player was a cool addition but I basically never played it because of how busy and impractical it is, but overall the game was compromised thanks to being split across two versions, and the lack of solid single player really made it feel barebones. Ultimate's single player is a huge step up and I'm extremely appreciative of that.

Nicest thing I can say about Smash 4 is it was easy to go online and just grind out some matches on For Glory. Not really liking Ultimate's so far at all and it's by far my biggest issue with the game and my only genuine disappointment. Maybe they can fix it up but I have my doubts. I doubt I'll get anywhere near as many hours in Ultimate as Smash 4 because of the lackluster online, unfortunately (I very rarely got to play locally with people).

Before Ultimate, I'd put Smash 4 above Brawl still because of the better gameplay and (semi) improved online options despite the disappointing newcomer roster, but I do have a lot of nostalgia for Brawl speculation that definitely rose tints my view of the game a bit, I remember replaying the first three Smashes before 4 and going from Melee gameplay to Brawl was genuinely jarring. I don't think I would ever pick it up again anytime soon but I look upon my time with it more fondly than Smash 4 despite playing it less, and Subspace Emissary was flawed as hell but genuinely entertaining and memorable. Ultimate just really makes it obvious how lacking Smash 4 was and it's harder to rate it as highly as I might've when it was sort of the "best by default" option. I'm having a great time with World Of Light, and although it lacks the sense of narrative you got from SSE, I find the gameplay overall better, especially since there is

a New Game+, which definitely gives me incentive to replay it, unlike SSE where I never had much urge to revisit it despite enjoying it.

Ultimate > Melee > Brawl > 4 > 64
I think the problem with Smash 4, in addition to lacking a core theme or identity besides "another Smash game" (hell, it was literally just titled "for X console" like it was routine) was that every mode it innovated wasn't really any good.

Smash Run, I'm just now realizing, was basically City Trial from Kirby Air Ride, which is awesome. But by being unable to play in that environment with other players, it kind of defeats the purpose. It also wasn't a very fun or interesting environment, unlike City Trial.

Smash Tour... woof. I mean, I played it to unlock the PAC-LAND stage. I dragged my brother along with me to play it then, though, and I still think he'll never forgive me.

Classic Mode getting rid of the bonus stages in favor of weird branching paths didn't really do much, and Master Core wasn't that fun to fight, being just a bunch of amoprhous black particles. Also, the credits sequence, while interesting, isn't nearly as fun as the other games (just experienced Ultimate's version yesterday, and it kicks the hell out of Smash 4's).

Target Blast was completely unnecessary, combining Home-Run Contest and Break the Targets for no reason, and just being a frustrating mode in general.

Trophy Rush is kind of fun, but I preferred the Coin Launcher minigame for its style and gameplay more. If they could've iterated on that more instead, that would've been better.

The only modes in Smash 4 that don't have problems are the ones that were virtually unchanged from previous games.

All Smash 4 had to stand on was its multiplayer, which, luckily for it, was great with its improvements to the gameplay and large cast of characters. My family and I played it for 4 years straight just for that alone, in spite of it lacking everywhere else. So for all its faults, I'll never look back negatively on it, though I preferred Brawl for its wealth of content and theme.

Smash 4 is kind of like the Wii U in the sense that, while it had definitely had some merit and enjoyability, wasn't that great overall, but was still a necessary step to get to where we are, with the Switch and Ultimate. Without either that console or that game, we wouldn't have the system and game in our hands now.

Over the weekend, I played through World of Light, and yesterday I hammered the other modes as I tried to go through the (thankfully not very excruciating) challenges. Oh boy, this game's modes are way better and more fun than Smash 4's, thank goodness. I'll probably never put down this game, though I will still return to Melee and Brawl every now and then because of the unique modes that I still enjoy to this day.

Don't think anyone's going to return to Smash 4 for Smash Tour or Smash Run, though.
 
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