Lords with Swords

[Luminario]

Do you think the next game is going to deal with the FE lords with swords problem? I know that Marth and Ike are pretty much staying forever, Lucina's popular enough to at least get in as a Marth alt and as much as i dislike Roy y'all have some sort of fixation on the child so I guess I'm going to have to look at his face again; so that's potentially 3/4 sword users returning and leaves us to play around with Robin and Corrin and whoever else might get in next.

What I've been thinking is a good idea is replacing Robin with a pure tome user like Micaiah (or Celica, seeing as her game will be pretty fresh with a remake soon), maybe Ness-ify her moveset a bit so that she can use other characters elemental tomes besides light tomes, and remove that god awful durability bs that's only fun in theory. For Corrin, while they're not much of a sword user as Robin is, I was thinking that maybe Tiki could replace them and incorporate the good idea of using parts of her manakete form during fights.

So, thoughts? I know this subject is probably overdone by now but Fire Emblem is one of those series that has such potential for unique fighters and its such a shame that they're all mostly sword users in smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This hostility towards Roy though.

As a fire emblem fan, he's pretty cool.



And as a Smash fan, replacing Robin and Corrin with Micaiah and Tiki are terrible ideas for a number of reasons.

1. It's done out of an aversion to swords regardless of how unique the moveset is. That's kind of stupid. Swords can be used in a variety of different ways and Fire Emblem alone gives us a graceful dueler, a hard hitting brute, a fast short blade wielder, a mage knight and a freaking dragon knight. Those tropes provide amazing gameplay and visual differences. Looking at them and saying "yeah but they all have swords so its lame" just seems brain dead. Like you can't see the forest through the trees.
2. You're replacing one moveset with another moveset entirely. What if I liked the way Robin and Corrin played? The way you've described Micaiah and Tiki doesn't sound anything like them, so we'd be getting rid of two unique movesets for....movesets that take away core parts of the other two's designs?
3. Robin and Corrin are MUCH more popular than Tiki and Macaiah both in regards Smash and Fire Emblem (that new poll now proves that).
4. Micaiah and Tiki would be old news by then and Fire Emblem newcomers are typically chosen by if they're the hot new thing. Veterans once they're in, stay for gameplay/fan's sake.
5. Cuts meant for replacements only happened once. ->. Even then, Toon Link is debatably an update to Young Link. All other cuts were either meant to be included but weren't included due to time/technical issues, licensing issues or in Pichu's case, just being dropped altogether. Replacements don't happen in Smash.
6. Tiki can't borrow Corrin's dragon morphing thing, because Tiki can't do that and her doing that would seem.... odd. Micaiah's justification works fine though imo.

They are just bad ideas and I'm sure most people would pick any day.

 

[FalKoopa]

Generally speaking, any replacement is basically inviting controversy.

I don't really see Robin and Corrin getting cut either. Besides the obvious matter of sales and being the faces of Fire Emblem's revival, Sakurai did put a lot of thought into their movesets and their movesets are unique enough to set them apart from any other character in the roster.

Tiki and Micaiah aren't that popular (a shame as I'd love to see Micaiah), so while they would certainly be unique, their addition would be much more controversial.

 

[Luminario]

This hostility towards Roy though.

As a fire emblem fan, he's pretty cool.



And as a Smash fan, replacing Robin and Corrin with Micaiah and Tiki are terrible ideas for a number of reasons.

1. It's done out of an aversion to swords regardless of how unique the moveset is. That's kind of stupid. Swords can be used in a variety of different ways and Fire Emblem alone gives us a graceful dueler, a hard hitting brute, a fast short blade wielder, a mage knight and a freaking dragon knight. Those tropes provide amazing gameplay and visual differences. Looking at them and saying "yeah but they all have swords so its lame" just seems brain dead. Like you can't see the forest through the trees.
2. You're replacing one moveset with another moveset entirely. What if I liked the way Robin and Corrin played? The way you've described Micaiah and Tiki doesn't sound anything like them, so we'd be getting rid of two unique movesets for....movesets that take away core parts of the other two's designs?
3. Robin and Corrin are MUCH more popular than Tiki and Macaiah both in regards Smash and Fire Emblem (that new poll now proves that).
4. Micaiah and Tiki would be old news by then and Fire Emblem newcomers are typically chosen by if they're the hot new thing. Veterans once they're in, stay for gameplay/fan's sake.
5. Cuts meant for replacements only happened once. ->. Even then, Toon Link is debatably an update to Young Link. All other cuts were either meant to be included but weren't due to time/technical issues, licensing issues or in Pichu's case, just being dropped altogether. Replacements don't happen in Smash.
6. Tiki can't borrow Corrin's dragon morphing thing, because Tiki can't do that and her doing that would seem.... odd. Micaiah's justification works fine though imo.

They are just bad ideas and I'm sure most people would pick any day.

Those are good points I never thought of. I chose Micaiah and Tiki simply because they're the most notable main characters with tomes and manakete power respectively (I was also thinking that Tiki summons the ghost of her manakete form during attacks instead of morphing like Corrin). I suppose maybe I got ahead of myself without thinking of the consequences of replacing veterans. Ever since I saw Awakening gameplay I've often thought of how great it would be to get a pure tome user in smash and I still feel the lack of one is wasted potential. As much as I adore Tiki she was tbh just a "what about a Corrin replacement" afterthought.

Sooooooo new idea~ everyone stays (including Roy unfortunately, he's not cool), Lucina probably becomes a Marth alt with a new taunt that lets them keep the mask on because that is the TRUE injustice here, and we get a brand new pure tome user (Micaiah, Celica, new character from FE Switch, christ I'll take anyone) and everyone's happy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Of course Roy isn't "cool", he's "hot". Don't you know anything about fire?

But seriously, the only two cuts I would be okay with are Lucina and Roy simply because they could give us more unique users like Hector(or a relevant axe user). That said, I do like Lucina and Roy regardless, and our flaming boy also got a pretty big overhaul in his moveset. Lucina getting a full overhaul like that would be neat, but regardless, we're likely to see more new characters, so I could see one or both getting cut. Being Lucina is almost the same as Marth bar the tip of the sword difference, she's the only one that could still work as an alternate costume at all. Not that I'm against 7 FE characters, but some are, as well as the roster getting really huge can cause balance issues.

On the other hand, Sakurai may elect to do alternate slots(like how in Brawl you could have Zelda and Sheik on the same slot) to lower the size of the roster screen. Any alternate clones that are extremely similar could be done like this, same with Zelda and Sheik, respectively. It might be a bit weird at first, but considering he gives us tons of news anyway, people would find out fast that this is an option. And if push comes to shove, you could just press something like the LR button to switch to another full character choice.

 

[Bowserlick]

There are no needs for cuts in a Smash 4 port for Switch. But we do not need a Fire Emblem character taking up a new character slot.

Corrin was slapped on for promotion as one of the last new characters. That is enough.

 

[Delzethin]

And as a Smash fan, replacing Robin and Corrin with Micaiah and Tiki are terrible ideas for a number of reasons.

1. It's done out of an aversion to swords regardless of how unique the moveset is. That's kind of stupid. Swords can be used in a variety of different ways and Fire Emblem alone gives us a graceful dueler, a hard hitting brute, a fast short blade wielder, a mage knight and a freaking dragon knight. Those tropes provide amazing gameplay and visual differences. Looking at them and saying "yeah but they all have swords so its lame" just seems brain dead. Like you can't see the forest through the trees.
2. You're replacing one moveset with another moveset entirely. What if I liked the way Robin and Corrin played? The way you've described Micaiah and Tiki doesn't sound anything like them, so we'd be getting rid of two unique movesets for....movesets that take away core parts of the other two's designs?
3. Robin and Corrin are MUCH more popular than Tiki and Macaiah both in regards Smash and Fire Emblem (that new poll now proves that).
4. Micaiah and Tiki would be old news by then and Fire Emblem newcomers are typically chosen by if they're the hot new thing. Veterans once they're in, stay for gameplay/fan's sake.
5. Cuts meant for replacements only happened once. ->. Even then, Toon Link is debatably an update to Young Link. All other cuts were either meant to be included but weren't included due to time/technical issues, licensing issues or in Pichu's case, just being dropped altogether. Replacements don't happen in Smash.
6. Tiki can't borrow Corrin's dragon morphing thing, because Tiki can't do that and her doing that would seem.... odd. Micaiah's justification works fine though imo.

They are just bad ideas and I'm sure most people would pick any day.

I was ready to write a whole essay here, but this makes almost every point I was going to make. Judging the Fire Emblem cast in Smash and assuming wielding swords makes them redundant is a mistake, and often proof that the judger isn't looking beyond the surface. No one's getting "replaced" because that isn't how Smash's character selection works--only Young Link -> Toon Link has an argument for it, and even then, Toon Link is more of a spiritual successor who takes the same concept and does more interesting things with it. One-and-done characters aren't really a thing, either--they only happen due to other circumstances, such as licensing hangups, technical issues, or being out-prioritized by other characters.

(No, Lucario didn't "replace" Mewtwo in Brawl just because their neutral specials are similar. Mewtwo was planned for Brawl and missed out due to time constraints. The "replacement" talk spread because people jumped to conclusions and didn't question them.)

If I had to guess, Smash 5--whenever it happens--will have Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, and a newcomer. Lucina and Roy are at risk of falling short of the cut due to their natures as a clone and half-clone, respectively. Note that I am not talking about the rumored "Smash 4.5" port--after Sakurai's word on how they were concerned Corrin was pushing it, I doubt they'll look at Fire Emblem again until the next fully distinct Smash game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh, I agree with Smash 4's cast staying the same for FE, including a port that will likely will see.

Future and new Smash games don't fall under this, which is what my point was referring to. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[Opossum]

Despite everything, I still want Chrom.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Despite everything, I still want Chrom.

Google called. They want their Chrome back.

But yeah, I honestly want to see a really good mix of abilities between Ike and Marth. I wouldn't mind seeing how unique they could make him.

...This is why we need a Fire Emblem Fighting game. >.>

 

[A Distant Demon]

Despite everything, I still want Chrom.

Also want Chrom (can't say still because it was only after Smash For Released).
Rework Lucina to be paired up with Chrom and I will be happier than Gaius in a candy factory
Also want Lyn. And Alm looks cool.

*sigh* it's so easy to please me when it comes to FE content
more = better


Errr anyway, FE is certainly going to be an interseting topic when it comes to content in any non-port. A port would almost certainly have every character in so that is boring. But a full new game? That will be rough. Desire to add a new character mixed with a general distaste for the amount of characters already in the game. Doesn't mix well. Hoping cuts are at a minimum

 

[L9999]

What's with this community and their fetish for replacing characters? are very unique in playstyles and are very popular because Waifu Emblem. Tiki isn't known much outside of FE fanbase, and even then between she is divided between loli!Tiki and ****! Tiki, both supported separately by America and Japan. Micaiah is from a game that tanked miserably and is very old. Micaiah isn't very liked either. As for Celica, SoV came a little too late. Even then she can't bring much to the table can't. is very popular, and he came back to Smash 4 for that very reason. Cutting him would be a disservice to people who supported him since Brawl. is very popular (if the Voting Gauntlet is a reliable guide) and I think her niche as a "no tipper Marth" could be pushed further to make a more fun character, like giving her a bow and spinning Up B from Codename Steam as well as changing her animations slightly like Project X2. To play devil's advocrite with this thread, I would add Sharena or Heroes!Anna, they don't wield swords and I get to piss on 2 overrated characters at the same time.

 

[Luminario]

What's with this community and their fetish for replacing characters?

We live for the salt of others when we kill off their mains as it clears our skin and replenishes our electrolytes.
Also Micaiah got 9th on that poll for Fire Emblem Heroes. I've changed my mind about the whole replacing characters thing but she's gotta be at least somewhat popular to get up there. Loving the idea of Anna though, shes like a Fire Emblem cryptid. Bring her in with axes, bows and staves and we got a fully fleshed out fighter right there.
They could probably bring in the summoner from Heroes too and have them fight like Yuna in Dissidia. Get Chrom in the game again but only for f smash and thats it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Despite everything, I still want Chrom.

She could share the roster spot with Lucina. And I think that's especially likely if Lucina receives some changes in her moveset. I could see Marth getting two semi-clones. I could even see Alm as a Marth pallete swap cause of the FE2 remake. Chrom seems more popular now than he was in Awakening, so am sure his inclusion won't hurt. It'd be pretty damn easy for them to make Chrom into a playable character, he's got the model and all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also Micaiah got 9th on that poll for Fire Emblem Heroes and was above Robin by 1.

1 version of Robin.

Gotta remember, Robin and Corrin votes got split in two.

She could share the roster spot with Lucina.

Chrom is the prettiest princess.

 

[Deleted member]

Am I the only one that sees the entendre in the title? Yes? Ok.

Chrom is the prettiest princess.

Hey, Lucina had to get it from somewhere, and it surely wasn't the mother.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I'm still not convinced they would add newcomers from a FE mobile game....

But a FE Switch game is easily more likely.

 

[Troykv]

I'm still wondering what will do Sakurai or whoever is the new Smash Director in the next non-Port Smash Bros about the Fire Emblem Characters... They NEED to put a new character, but... what about the already big cast?

 

[A Distant Demon]

I'm still wondering what will do Sakurai or whoever is the new Smash Director in the next non-Port Smash Bros about the Fire Emblem Characters... They NEED to put a new character, but... what about the already big cast?

Well I mean. . .they don't NEED to add a new FE character

I get that FE is getting pushed harder than Roman Reigns* but after getting 2.5 newcomers and a DLC veteran I think even Nintendo may want to calm down a little. I would never rule out a stage or AT or a whole other slew of possible content but I wouldnt say a new FE character is "needed"

*WWE reference just roll with it.

 

[Troykv]

Well I mean. . .they don't NEED to add a new FE character

I get that FE is getting pushed harder than Roman Reigns* but after getting 2.5 newcomers and a DLC veteran I think even Nintendo may want to calm down a little. I would never rule out a stage or AT or a whole other slew of possible content but I wouldnt say a new FE character is "needed"

*WWE reference just roll with it.

Well, now that I think about it... Ike, and the clones technically, (Sakurai: Hey! I want a Fire Emblem character and we need a Strong Swordfighter... IS Person: What about the two things in the same pack?) are the only shoehorned characters included in Smash Bros, the other characters have their own reasons, mostly from their gameplay capabilities (Marth is the Fire Emblem Main and Original Star, a elegant fencer in time where only Link used swords; Robin has their hybrid combination of range, melee and powerful limited attacks; Corrin has their Dragon Things as a shape-shifter and stuff)

 

[A Distant Demon]

Well, now that I think about it... Ike (and the clones technically) are the only shoehorned characters included in Smash Bros, the other characters have their own reasons, mostly from their gameplay capabilities (Marth is the Fire Emblem Main and Original Star, a elegant fencer in time where only Link used swords; Robin has their hybrid combination of range, melee and powerful limited attacks; Corrin has their Dragon Things as a shape-shifter and stuff)

If having a moveset gimmick makes you not shoehorned then Ike isn't

His whole thing, straight from Sakurai is being our "Burly swordsman"

 

[Troykv]

If having a moveset gimmick makes you not shoehorned then Ike isn't

His whole thing, straight from Sakurai is being our "Burly swordsman"

Ike was a fortuitous case... before the IS's developer presented Ike to Sakurai, he wasn't complete sure what to use from Fire Emblem... and Ike was decided just to fit a shoehorned gimmick that Sakurai was searching... unlike Marth, Robin and Corrin, where he thought about the character's unique (Aka: The gimmick and/or concept idea their design gives to him) instead of the unique's character (Ike is the only known case of this... and before RD, Ike was more similar to the typical Balanced with Good Speed/Luck kind of character)...

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ike was a fortuitous case... before the IS's developer presented Ike to Sakurai, he wasn't complete sure what to use from Fire Emblem... and Ike was decided just to fit a shoehorned gimmick that Sakurai was searching... unlike Marth, Robin and Corrin, where he thought about the character's unique (Aka: The gimmick and/or concept idea their design gives to him) instead of the unique's character (Ike is the only known case of this... and before RD, Ike was more similar to the typical Balanced with Good Speed/Luck kind of character)...

Source? I honestly don't remember that at all.

 

[Delzethin]

What's with this community and their fetish for replacing characters?

Because much of the community keeps assuming that's how it works, when it actually isn't.

Ike was a fortuitous case... before the IS's developer presented Ike to Sakurai, he wasn't complete sure what to use from Fire Emblem... and Ike was decided just to fit a shoehorned gimmick that Sakurai was searching... unlike Marth, Robin and Corrin, where he thought about the character's unique (Aka: The gimmick and/or concept idea their design gives to him) instead of the unique's character (Ike is the only known case of this... and before RD, Ike was more similar to the typical Balanced with Good Speed/Luck kind of character)...

...Not as far as I know? Ike wasn't shoved into the "heavyweight swordsman" concept, the concept was created around Ike as an idea for how he could fight. If I remember correctly, they based a decent amount of his concept on his stat spread in Radiant Dawn--where he is more of a strong but slower character, with one of the lower Speed growths in the game--while using his look from Path of Radiance for reasons I'm not entirely sure of.

 

[Troykv]

Source? I honestly don't remember that at all.

http://sourcegaming.info/2017/01/17/on-character-selection-brawl/

Ike: Sakurai viewed the Fire Emblem series as a big franchise when making Smash 64 and Melee, and in a way, he proved himself correct; Marth and Roy’s popularity in Melee gave Nintendo of Amerca justification to finally bring the series to the west with Fire Emblem on the GBA. Just like Kirby and Metroid, there had been a new Fire Emblem game every year since 2002 so the franchise was very relevant at this time. Sakurai did not know who to include, so he initially wrote down “New Fire Emblem rep.” Intelligent Systems were the ones who told Sakurai to use Ike, just like how they advised him to use Roy in Melee. Ike made sense as Path of Radiance was the newest Fire Emblem protagonist at the time of the project plan, and with its later Wii sequel, Radiant Dawn, he would be the most prominent of the series’ characters for some time.

Right now is the only source I have found so far, where is explained that Ike's inclussion was completely IS's idea.
___

Because much of the community keeps assuming that's how it works, when it actually isn't.


...Not as far as I know? Ike wasn't shoved into the "heavyweight swordsman" concept, the concept was created around Ike as an idea for how he could fight. If I remember correctly, they based a decent amount of his concept on his stat spread in Radiant Dawn--where he is more of a strong but slower character, with one of the lower Speed growths in the game--while using his look from Path of Radiance for reasons I'm not entirely sure of.

Of course they wouldn't just give Ike that kind of attacks just because "Why not?", they need them to make more sense... the moves were evidently constructed around Ike's design (but he feels heavier than the expect of a teenager); but the concept itself doesn't originate with Ike.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I would like the FE characters more if they showed a bit more personality.
*everyone gets triggered*
I don't mean that they need to be overly flashy in their victory animations, or taunts, or whatnot, but the attack animations really seem to give each character a bit more personality. Sonic is overly flashy, and the moves come out fast. ROB's animations are funny sometimes, and kinda weird (uptilt lol). And sometimes, it can even be a lack of a personality that makes the character unique! Megaman is a robot, so it makes sense that he is emotionless and just throws out attacks with the same straight face. So maybe Nintendo should update the animations rather than replace the characters entirely.

 

[Luminario]

1 version of Robin.

Gotta remember, Robin and Corrin votes got split in two.

Right, forgot to account for the male votes. She's still much higher than I expected and I'm going to cling to that whenever someone says she's not popular.
Side note looking at the male side of the poll too it's clear that female Corrin is vastly more popular than the male one and should really be the default Corrin.

What about updating Robin by taking out durability? I'm not saying that they should because I know that it fits their character in regards to them being a tactician and its both what makes them unique as a fighter and its a reference to the main series, but christ half the time it feels like you're fighting your own character as much as the opponents. It's especially horrible having jab flurry being connected to your recovery. Removing it allows for such wider range of tomes to be used in general attacks other than jab and specials.

 

[A Distant Demon]

This thread was nice for the period before we had a bunch of threads getting ready to be made and official rules, but after this it doesn't serve a purpose worthy of its own thread.

Therefore I have locked it, and if anyone would like to discuss any content or ideas from this thread they are welcome to in the general thread.
https://smashboards.com/threads/super-smash-bros-for-switch-speculation-discussion.434391/