Lol, the only reason Ganon is absolute trash is because of a coding error.

stingers

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#1
camelot said:
On his f-air, it appears as though it was supposed to auto-cancel starting on frame 36, and have IASA starting frame 45... but, the timer used for the auto-cancel is the wrong one (synchronous instead of asynchronous), and so it causes the attack to not auto-cancel at all, or have any IASA.
Imagine how much better Ganon would be with that one change.

Top tier? No. Not worst in the game? Definitely.
 
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#3
Are you serious? That means it could be SH'd or retreating--and then those IASA frames...oh my God.

This is so disgusting.
 

PK-ow!

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#4
Sounds too good.

I call shenanigans.


Actually, the attack would be fine if we could just L-cancel or something from the hitbox to the end, or effectively always had half the landing lag we do now.

That'd be just kickin'.


And come on. It's not like half our character isn't an error.

EDIT: @TheMike: Oh, for sure.


EDIT2: I will die if Word of God in the Zelda timeline says that Zelda II's infamous Error has something to do with Ganon, now. O_O
 

DLA

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#6
Yeah this explains a lot. It seems like they gave the animation for this move a lot of extra slack because they were going to add IASA frames anyways, so it wouldn't matter how long they made the move past 45 frames.

I wonder, what keeps Nintendo from making patches for their games?
 

Spelt

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#7
Actually, the attack would be fine if we could just L-cancel or something from the hitbox to the end, or effectively always had half the landing lag we do now.
So would EVERY other laggy attack...
 
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#8
The lag on this move is awkward. I mean...he just places his hand on the ground. For like, a second.

It makes sense that this was a coding error--now if that could be patched like DLA is saying, then Ganon would improve dramatically--he currently lacks a good retreating fair, or good use for his fair outside of off the stage.

If he could retreat his fair he could actually have a solid defense--and maybe even an approach if it autocanceled like he said.
 

A2ZOMG

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#9
Huh, interesting.

Actually I read over the frame data of that, and Ganondorf would still be complete trash even if this autocancel was viable, because most importantly, YOU CANNOT SH AUTOCANCEL THIS.

Which means it's probably still useless on anyone who isn't ridiculously tall.

However, the IASA window does mean you can Flame Choke immediately before landing from fullhop. And it looks like you would be able to do the Flight of Ganon from a fullhop F-air.
 

Big O

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#11
That is pretty interesting. Are there lots of moves like this or just Ganon's Fair? I'd imagine his up b has a coding error on its hitsun too. I don't know if it would be the same kind of error though (well since you can attack immediately instead of the standard 25 frame delay it might also be the same timer related bug).
 
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#12
Yeah, honestly...I would naturally expect his hitstun, and the knockback of his dark dive to be MUUUUCH higher.

Ganon just really needs an overhaul, or other characters really just need to get toned down. Ganon is just too crappy to be played competitively. He's an excellent character to learn the basics with. He FORCES you to PS, and to pay attention to the fundamentals.

More and more I feel that Brawl is just NOT a competitive game. It's all about the top tiers, or a battle of rock paper scissors. A competitive game should be about the skill of the person--not the character they chooses. Because if Ganon was equally as viable as MK I'd STILL play him. It would just be awesome to know that the character I love is also a **** beast.

This stuff is just discouraging to hear, because now we're all salivating over hypotheticals. We still have a crappy aerial that doesn't even autocancel from a FH. I think that at the WORST aerials should AC from FHs--if not SHs. This is a travesty. :[
 
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#20
I'd say in order to make us a lot better we don't even need a multi-hit jab. We just need the original jab--frame 3, with almost no cool down so we can keep pimp slapping their shields. And the ftilt needs to be a little faster. That's about it.

And the grab range should be better than D3's. He's the TALLEST character, and yet has the most dismal grab range. If his was as good as D3's or a little longer Ganon would be SO much better. He would actually be feared--because he could truly be a defensive character who can actually react OoS.
 
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#22
No, the only reason Ganon is absolute trash is because he's a clone of Captain Falcon.
I think you're being radical.

I don't like the fact that Ganondorf's moveset isn't very "Original" and it's a clone of Cap. Falcon's moveset.

In my opinion, we should be thankful because Ganon has at least some strong attacks, despising the Lag.

Melee Ganondorf, for example, was a Mid Tier character who has the same moveset of Cap. Falcon. Not bad for a clone, IMO.
 

:mad:

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#23
It's not that Melee Ganondorf is good. Everyone under him is just so much worse.
 

*JuriHan*

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#25
I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes I wonder if the animation and start up on jigglypuff's f-smash was a mistake too. I mean if you look at it in slow motion zoomed the start up animation doesn't even make sense/look normal. lol
 
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#26
It's not that Melee Ganondorf is good. Everyone under him is just so much worse.
I personally think the Melee Ganondorf is good. Also, he is much more viable to play in tourneys than vBrawl Ganondorf.

Well Straked, I have to agree with you, but Melee DK, for example, isn't very bad and he is under Ganondorf in the Melee Tier List. Almost everyone under Ganondorf is just so much worse.

Anyway, let's go back to the real topic of this thread. Melee Discussion is pointless here.
 

Lokee

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#27
Ganon What!?

Wow I cannot believe this is true Ganon already has it bad but this is just ridiculous.
An auto canceled Fair could have opened a new door for Ganon. Maybe enough to escape F tier.

I mean think about.
1)You could use it as an effective edge guard.
2)Obviously have a reliable aerial kill move.
3)Retreat with it and couple it with the IASA fames to mix up his aerial game somewhat.
4)Also possibly approach with it.

Of course I may be going a little overboard. Interesting though, are there any more errors in Ganon's coding or any character for that matter?

It makes sense though, When I double jump to Fair it seems whierd that still has the laggy animation despite being in the air for a long amount of time. :dizzy:
 

Grizzer

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#29
i agree that ganon's Fair kinda sucks, but why didn't the creators make him use his sword with his Fair? a bit like Ike's Fair, and maybe Utilt kinda like link's or Tink's Ftilt (or Ike's Fsmash) this would definitely make ganon even more awesome and a lot better :D (i vote for a quick uptilt for punishing whiffed aerials) maybe like Ike's up smash? (in terms of the way his sword would move)
 

smashkng

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#30
I don't understand what was Sakurai doing. He makes Snake with ridiculous priority, speed, good recovery, so heavy, huge range and maybe even more killing power than Ganon with addition of projectiles while Ganon only has power and weight. What did you do, Sakurai? The same goes with Ike, who with his power should have at least worse mobility than Ganon to be fair. And theres no reason to nerf him in recovery and speed because he wasn't broken unlike Marth and Falco, who did not even be nerfed.

Ganon sucks in Brawl because of Sakurai's dumb misstakes which made the game so unbalanced.
 

Shell

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#31
Huh, interesting.

Actually I read over the frame data of that, and Ganondorf would still be complete trash even if this autocancel was viable, because most importantly, YOU CANNOT SH AUTOCANCEL THIS.

Which means it's probably still useless on anyone who isn't ridiculously tall.

However, the IASA window does mean you can Flame Choke immediately before landing from fullhop. And it looks like you would be able to do the Flight of Ganon from a fullhop F-air.
Pretty much, this.

*cough-brawl-plus-ganondorf-is-so-much-fun-cough*
 

Yumewomiteru

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#32
I don't understand what was Sakurai doing. He makes Snake with ridiculous priority, speed, good recovery, so heavy, huge range and maybe even more killing power than Ganon with addition of projectiles while Ganon only has power and weight. What did you do, Sakurai? The same goes with Ike, who with his power should have at least worse mobility than Ganon to be fair. And theres no reason to nerf him in recovery and speed because he wasn't broken unlike Marth and Falco, who did not even be nerfed.

Ganon sucks in Brawl because of Sakurai's dumb misstakes which made the game so unbalanced.
The hypothesis is that Snake also got a coding error. As in developement they made him too big so they shrunk him. But they skill kept the range of a big snake. Thats why his hitbox on his tilts and his grenade have so much range, and why he is a heavy despite being marth sized. So I guess Snake just got lucky. Imagine how bad he would be if they made him too SMALL at first and didnt fix it.
 

Divilenta

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#34
This makes me really wonder why Nintendo doesn't patch Brawl. If there are really THAT MANY coding mistakes, is there any reason not to? And since most Wii's are connected to the internet, it wouldn't be that hard to make a patch available for download.

Question: how were these coding errors found?
 

Shell

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#35
Just look at FitCharacter.pac files in PSA. Errors don't exactly leap out at you, but if you understand the character well enough you might make some inferences as to intent vs. result.
 

DLA

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#40
excellent necro bump.

Even with the coding error, Fair is the future of Ganon's metagame. Not even joking either.
 
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