Link's punishes OoS

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So OoS what are options you find Link is good with to punish an opponent hitting his shield?

I'm looking around for all his option and how it can work in normal game play. What ones can we collaborate are good for Link to use OoS? UpB, Dsmash, Bomb, Nair, jab and grab are the main ones I use.

 

[Scabe]

I really like Up B OOS. I sometimes use Up Smash OOS, and the rest of the times I spam roll and spot dodge

 

[IYM!]

dont misunderstand my post, but, the spin attack is an OOS option in brawl??

in fact i dont use the spin attack in brawl


But, for not being a pesimist guy, and for help Red Ryu in this thread...

IMO, goods OOS options are

1) U Smash, isnt fast, but cover a lot of space and can catch with the guard low
2) SH to Zair, Zair is the best link move, and is pretty fast, i use it meanwile i jump backward
3) Jab, is a simple attack to try to strat something
4) jump and dodge ( i spelled right ?, i dont remember it very good) this can be easyly followed by a Zair or just dont do anything to keep evading.

i cant thing in another OOS , but i hope this helps


out of topic: cool signature Red Ryu

 

[Dyclone]

I don't really think you needed to make a topic for this. The OoS options i use aren't the best but they have worked for me
Utilt- Has slightly more horizontal range and isn't as hard punished as Usmash but is slower... i think
Dsmash- prepared to be punished on whiff
Bomb throw-I usually have a bomb in hand and if the bomb did not explode from having my shield hit, i Fthrow having that mentality of "Damage doesn't mean as much, I can outlive em'"

 

[Beat11]

Buffered footstool Oos is a really good escape option if they are close enough to your shield. With a bomb in hand, you can get a free bombstool combo. Pretty legit.

 

[Death Arcana]

can you cancel shield into dsmash or do you have to go through the shield drop frames?

 

[Scabe]

You have to go through the shield drop frames unless you perfect shield it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm trying to test something more or less I just want to make sure I get the OoS options I should be checking and skip ones that are silly to do.

 

[Huggles828]

Best OoS options in my opinion:

shield drop>dash away (pathetic, ain't it?)
Nair OoS (both SH and FH work depending on spacing/if there's a platform above you)
Bombthrow (if they hit you with a move that has pretty good shieldpush like Ike fsmash)

Grab, usmash, and upb are okay but you're going to get punished really hard on a miss, so I reserve those for punishing laggy moves or hard reads.
Shield drop>Jab's not bad since if they shield it you can sometimes get away after the second jab. It's safer than utilt and dsmash IMO.
Zair's okay, but the spacing has to be perfect, otherwise the first hit will pop them away from the second hit and make your retreat harder.

My OoS options are almost always with the mindset of getting out of CQC and resetting the spacing; whatever I can do to get the heck out of there, so I don't use laggy moves unless I feel the reward is greater than the risk. Link's OoS game is abysmal, and sorta like Yoshi's, is so bad that a big aspect of the game is almost absent from his metagame, and it vastly changes how Link is played. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

B-air oos is totally amazing in a few matchups. Specifically against tall characters. I mean yeah, it's matchup specific, but it can't be ignored. D-air oos can be alright as long as they don't roll away from the initial hit, or if you're in a position where you don't have to incur the landing lag.

Also F-smash out of shield while slow does have utility simply due to the range (very good against ledge attacks). DA similarly can be alright out of shield though often grabbing is preferable if you're sure they're on the ground.

 

[Beat11]

Link's Oos shield options list

Note: shield drop is 7 frames, Link's jump is 9 frames. Frontal, Upward or Rear determines the direction Oos attack will go. This is important to know. Close, mid, and far is the attacks distance in the direction attack. Turning around is 2 frames.

Grab: 11 frames, frontal, far
Spin: 11 or 12 frames?, frontal and rear, close
Usmash: 10 frames, upward, far
foostool: 9 or 10 frames?close
bombthrow: 8 frames (fastest option), frontal rear and upward, far mid and close
SH Zair: 20 frames, frontal, mid close and far
SH Bair: 15 frames, rear, close and mid
SH Nair: ? frames
SH Fair: 23 frames
SH Dair: ? frames
Shield drop Dsmash:
Shield drop jab: 13 frames (15 frames with turning animation)
Shield jump z drop: 10 frames

There are more but these are what i feel are the most pratical attack shield options Link has. The frames how fast something come outs. A term called "shield advantage" determines how many frames the shielder has to punish an attack on shield.

For Example: Fox's Ftilt is -15 on shield advantage. The - means Link has frame advantage over Fox. This means Link has 15 frames to punish Fox before can react. All you need to do is choose which shield option is 15 frames or less to punish. Link can shield drop jab, shield jump z drop, footstool, bombthrow, spin, usmash, and grab to punish. Other factors that determine whether something is punishable on shield or not is the range, shieldpush and side of the shield the opponent is on. Even though frame wise Link can footstool Fox Oos, he really cannot because of how far Fox is on his shield. He can shieldgrab fox even with shieldpush because of the range on it. Powershielding makes punishing things even easier since it negates all shield push.

Looking up other characters frame data is very important to learning whats punishable on Link's shield. Bombthrow is technically Link's best Oos option because of its range, speed and versatility in attack directions. The only problem is that the explosion can hurt Link. Sometimes, this is worth it. Other times, Shield jump z drop is a 2 frame slower but safer option to escape/punish/pressure.

I wanna bump this thread and also alter the purpose of it. I want a list of every characters attack frame wise and its shieldpush, shieldstun, shield advantage, etc to determine what Link can punish on shield to help out people. (For example: Everything Marth does is unsafe on Link's shield when he has a bomb except a FF Fair. Even Dtilt is punishable.) This can help MU discussions plus i just want some activity around here.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I wonder if you finally will find that bomb OoS is links most valid defense.

EDIT: aw well, brawl sucks anyways

 

[Beat11]

Well yeah, bomb throw is his best option but sometimes there are cases where other shield options are available for punishing to avoid damaging yourself when you don't have to. Also, Link won't have a bomb in hand at all times so it is important to know his other options. His options are, in fact, very vast and versatile to fit many situations. The only drawback is that most of them are pretty slow. Like A2Z said, Bair is great against some characters since even if they shield it, Link can footstool them before they can react making it safe on most shields.

Anyways, we must also take into account of human reaction time. Obviously no one is going to react exactly on the first unless they are robots. With good practice, you'd be surprised at what Link can punish on shield that other characters cannot. It makes me think is Link's shield really as bad as its rumored to be. Also, wifi sucks.

 

[Huggles828]

Anyways, we must also take into account of human reaction time. Obviously no one is going to react exactly on the first unless they are robots. With good practice, you'd be surprised at what Link can punish on shield that other characters cannot. It makes me think is Link's shield really as bad as its rumored to be. Also, wifi sucks.

And then you realize characters like MK have moves like upB OoS that's 3 frames or whatever, literally beyond the realm of possible reaction, D3's monster grab range that CG's like half the cast, Fox's deadly upB, Diddy's naner glide toss shenanigans.... sure, Link has options, they just all suck. Most good characters have ways of dealing with everything Link can with just two or three options and without the "whoops I missed a grab hope I don't get Falcon Punched" punish potential (slight exaggeration but still). You also have to account for the fact that it takes more time for Link's grab to fully extend, so the frames on his grab have to be taken with a grain of salt.

The point is be realistic. You need to understand this is a big flaw in Link's game and you have to work around it. If you don't understand your weaknesses they're going to get abused by your opponent. I'm not saying be negative, but you can't be overly positive and ignore your character's flaws. People around here seem to do that a lot, haha.

 

[Beat11]

I am very well aware of Link's drawbacks but a man must use the tools he has or he will defeat the purpose of having tools to begin with. Obviously Link can't use his Oos options like MK or Fox but at times, Link can do things others cannot. Like shield grab Snake's Ftilt regardless of whether it's spaced perfectly or not, Something more than half the cast can't do. Also a footstool with a bomb in hand can give you a free bomb stool combo which is great depending of what you follow up with. Link's Oos options aren't like everyone else , so it's kinda bittersweet. He can't do fast things but he can punish normally unpunishable things to other characters due to his range.

Also, while it is important to know his drawbacks, it is also important to know what he can do. There must be a balance of pessimism and optimism for successful development of a character's metagame. I know everyone thinks that Link's prime has been reached but I think a real reanalyzation of Link is in order. This is just IMO though.

 

[Huggles828]

I am very well aware of Link's drawbacks but a man must use the tools he has or he will defeat the purpose of having tools to begin with.

True.... but I still think you're trying to chop down a tree with a pickaxe here. Just because you have a tool doesn't mean you should use it if it doesn't do a good job Unless you know the last thing that tree is expecting is to be cut down with a pickaxe. Then you MINDGAME DAT TREE SON, show it who's boss!

Like shield grab Snake's Ftilt regardless of whether it's spaced perfectly or not, Something more than half the cast can't do.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I'm just gonna say I'm pretty sure this isn't true (not saying this invalidates this argument, but this is relevant to the idea of knowing his limitations, particularly the grab). Snake's ftilt has a huge range and spaced well, Link's grab is gonna take forever to reach him. It's an 11 frame grab at Link's hand. 11 frames is for the shortest grab range in the game. It's gonna be like, maybe 20-25 frames for the chain to extend and grab Snake after an ftilt and I'm pretty sure he can avoid that. Plus, if he whiffs on the first hit a good Snake will mix up not even doing the second hit with something else, making attempting a grab a risky proposition. The problem is that what is a normal read for a good character becomes a hard or dangerous read for Link.

Also, while it is important to know his drawbacks, it is also important to know what he can do. There must be a balance of pessimism and optimism for successful development of a character's metagame. I know everyone thinks that Link's prime has been reached but I think a real reanalyzation of Link is in order. This is just IMO though.

I play as both Link and Wario in tourney, and I'm just gonna say right now Wario's options OoS are much better and safer than Link's. It is important to know what Link can and can't do. And yeah, there are things Link can do that others just can't do. But overall, Link's OoS game is riskier and more dangerous. Nothing is safe or guaranteed in most situations. That's the deal with the number crunching and frame data reading; it's good to understand how fast everything is, but things don't fall in a nice little box in tourneys. You have to mindgame, stay unpredictable. You have to feel the situation out and decide what's best. Sometimes the best option is to chop down that tree with that pickaxe because it's such a surprise. If you can force your opponent to have to guard against all of Link's crappy options your choices are actually safer than just always choosing the "correct" or optimal choice.

.....Wow, I REALLY don't want to do this presentation tomorrow, haha.

 

[Beat11]

I've tested the Snake Ftilt thing and it is true that Link shield grab Snake without him being able to dodge. Snake has about 20 or more ending frames on Ftilt iirc and Link's grab will fully extend before frame 20. In fact, Snake will not be at the full grab distance away if he hit your shield with an Ftilt so it hits earlier than frame 20.

I've been to four tourneys so far and I have been improving slowly. Placed 5 out of top 16 bracket on my last tourney. It a step up for me and I'm looking to go further. Ally is coming to a tourney near me so I'm pretty hyped. I get what you mean by being unpredictable and it's helped gameplay on my last tourney. I'm working on getting better at that among other things.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

And then you realize characters like MK have moves like upB OoS that's 3 frames or whatever, literally beyond the realm of possible reaction, D3's monster grab range that CG's like half the cast, Fox's deadly upB,

This is a troll, right? XD
I'm going to assume you meant U-smash.

 

[Huggles828]

Dude, his upB gets me every time. I get caught in that fire and it does like a million damage. Definitely a top 10 best move in the game. It's also a top notch recovery move.

 

[Scabe]

I wonder if you finally will find that bomb OoS is links most valid defense.

EDIT: aw well, brawl sucks anyways

I use to play around with bomb OoS. I would throw the bomb down at the ground which helped a little with giving me some space.

 

[Beat11]

I use to play around with bomb OoS. I would throw the bomb down at the ground which helped a little with giving me some space.

It's called kamikaze bombing and it is very useful to do at high percents like 180%. I've lived up to 250% against two players in different matches by doing that to escape pressure. Link can live up to almost 400% with great DI and momentum canceling with fresh bombs (training mode). I reckon stale ones would allow him to live even longer. It is even better than Snake's since his will kill him slightly before 200%. Most people become irritated and try too hard to kill Link which gives you more chances to do damage before stock loss. Just make sure you DI properly and avoid the opponent's attempt to DI with you from the blast and attack during hit stun. Air dodging and Zair may help dodge the attack and retaliate properly.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Dude, his upB gets me every time. I get caught in that fire and it does like a million damage. Definitely a top 10 best move in the game. It's also a top notch recovery move.

Nah man. It's like this; apart from the damage that it can do, it's actually a bad move OoS. You really shouldn’t be getting hit with this thing. It's called spacing, and failing that, SDI. The start up is very slow (like uber slow. Hint; the animation does not signify when the hitboxes come out) and the range is terribad (probably his least ranged move?). Good spacing should instantly nullify the possibility of ever getting hit by this thing in the first place. If it is ever used this should leave him open to being punished, which is kind of a good incentive not to use it ever. If you do get caught in the start up, SDI a few times to the closest side and shield. It's easier than you'd think as long as you react quickly enough. So yeah, bad move because of poor range, overall slowness and the possibility of it not even working once you make it connect due to SDI. Fox has way better options OoS anyway.

 

[Beat11]

Mario

SA= shield advantage
+= Attacker (Mario) has frame advantage over Defender (Link).
-= Attacker (Mario) has frame disadvantage over Defender (Link).
Number= how many frames the person act before the other.
Landing cancel= used the aerial to where the hit box comes out on the last possible frame before landing.
Normal= used the aerial without falling to the ground, completing the whole animation in mid air.

Jab1: -11
Jab2: -14
Jab3: -20
Dash attack: murder him -27
Up tilt: -21
Forward tilt: -16
Down tilt: -27
Up smash: -25 to -21
Forward smash: -27
Down smash: -26 to -18
Fair (normal): -37 to -35
Fair(landing cancel): -21 to -22
Nair (normal): -38 to -35/-35 to -15
Nair (landing cancel): -6 to -8
Bair (normal): -22 to -20/-21 to -18
Bair (landing cancel): -5 to -7
Dair (normal) last hit: -10
Dair (landing cancel) landing hit: -18
Up special: Dair!!!!!!!!!
Side special: -20
Down special: doesn't matter
Neutral special: -22 (you can actually get hit by fireballs when close to him and still hit him)

Use these numbers while taking into account of what side of Link's shield the opponent at, the range(Link does not care about other characters pathetic range!) and the shield push. Power shielding negates all shield push and shield stun making counter attacks easier.

 

[Huggles828]

Nah man. It's like this; apart from the damage that it can do, it's actually a bad move OoS. You really shouldn’t be getting hit with this thing. It's called spacing, and failing that, SDI. The start up is very slow (like uber slow. Hint; the animation does not signify when the hitboxes come out) and the range is terribad (probably his least ranged move?). Good spacing should instantly nullify the possibility of ever getting hit by this thing in the first place. If it is ever used this should leave him open to being punished, which is kind of a good incentive not to use it ever. If you do get caught in the start up, SDI a few times to the closest side and shield. It's easier than you'd think as long as you react quickly enough. So yeah, bad move because of poor range, overall slowness and the possibility of it not even working once you make it connect due to SDI. Fox has way better options OoS anyway.

You're obviously just not using it right. It's really really good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY

Go to about 1:46.

 

[Beat11]

Ness

Jabflow= how many frames the defender has to react before the next jab comes out in the natural jab combo.

Jab1: -16
Jab1flow: -4
Jab2: -16
Jab2flow: -7
Jab3: -23
Dash attack: -16
Forward tilt: -24
Up tilt: -24
Down tilt: -10
Down tilt loop into another Down tilt: -2
Forward smash: -26
Down smash: -40
Up smash: -47
Neutral air (normal): -48
Neutral air (landing cancel): -16
Down air (normal): -36
Down air (landing cancel): -15
Up air (normal): -30
Up air (landing cancel): -9
Back air (normal): -21
Back air (landing cancel): -18
Forward air (normal): -19
Forward air (landing cancel): -12

Specials don't matter since they are all projectile based and used from a safe distance anyways.
Also, despite the fact that many of Ness's aerials appear to be punishable, they really are not due to Ness being in the air with his great aerial mobility.