Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Derpnaster]

I also want to point out that I've haven't quite mastered Technique allows you to gain momentum when throwing an item so I wasn't able to showcase what that will be like with both of these combos. Though I'm assuming that it'll help Link be able to perform both of these combos at a longer distance.
And thanks for letting me know that Rage has no effect on items. I didn't know about that until now.

That tech is known informally as bombslide for future reffrence.
And in my experience, it has more use for burst mobility than comboing. Not to say that it isn't viable as you can still buffer pretty much anything out of the second throw.

Personally I prefer to buffer a jump and hit with a fair as it can kill reliably around 100% on most of the cast.
It's most likely a 50/50 but it's usually not what is expected.

 

[JohnKnight416]

That tech is known informally as bombslide for future reffrence.
And in my experience, it has more use for burst mobility than comboing. Not to say that it isn't viable as you can still buffer pretty much anything out of the second throw.

Personally I prefer to buffer a jump and hit with a fair as it can kill reliably around 100% on most of the cast.
It's most likely a 50/50 but it's usually not what is expected.

Technically using Bombslide could be useful for these combos since the distance in which Link covers with Bombslide is far more greater than just the regular dash throw that I've used for these combos.
Also, these combos are only useful for racking up damage instead of killing. Though they could both act as follow-ups if Link performs Dtilt>Fair when the opponent's percentage is low enough. Since Dtilt > Fair usually does a total of 35% damage, it'll be enough for Link to have an opportunity for getting those these combos in.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

if you dont have a neutral you have nothing.

someone give me an explanation of link's main neutral strategy.

here's what a neutral strategy sounds like:
metaknight can dash attack many moves and travel quickly with it for punishes, grab when opponent is shielding, and pepper his fast aerials and many jumps for zoning, defense, oos. he can be played aggressively or as an annoying zoning insect depending on opponent character or play-style.

^thats what i'd call a neutral mixup apparatus.
a few effective strategies for different situations that you can cycle around to keep the opponent guessing.


i dont get what link is supposed to do in this sense. his kit seems random and non-synergistic.
can any1 enlighten me? am i missing stuff?

 

[Derpnaster]

Well first lets actually define what Neutral is in terms of smash, I know we all already know or have an idea but please bear with me,

Neutral in smash is, generally, a state of play in which neither player or team has a) been forced into a disadvantaged state, or b) has greater stage control than the other And preventing the other players from doing so.

With that in mind we can define playing
neutral as attempting to gain either an advantaged state or greater stage control.

Now lets go though and list which moves link has that cam be conceivably applied to play neutral.
(And please guys feel free to correct me, this list is only based on my limited experience and what I have used in neutral play myself)


Jab (Full Combo)
Link has a very good jab, it comes out decently fast for it's damage and knockback and it has the trait of being cancelable on the first two hits and instead replaced with any of Link's follow up options. However Jab 2 is the best for this as it can be canceled with down tilt, up tilt, up smash, grab, spin attack, and pretty much every other move Link has (Canceled here meaning Link can end the three hit combo early in favor of another move).

Forward Tilt
Very strong though somewhat slow, Link's forward tilt is a thing to be feared and respected. Even from neutral it can kill reliably around 120% on the edges of the stage and it is excellent for punishing laggy moves that would just be missed by forward smash. it's one of Link's farthest reaching sword attacks but otherwise fills more of a punish role than any sort of approach or combo role, though walking up and forward tilting at some levels of play is very uncommon and a great mixup in neutral, especially since Link's Hylian Shield will cover most projectiles aimed at his body.

Down Tilt
Link's combo starter tilit Down Tilt is the one Tilt that can't outright kill outside of spikes (Which it has one in the center of the blade) used out of jab 2 it can set up for a Forward Aerial or really anything as Link's air game is pretty scary. You can also use it as a poking tool because it is one of Link's faster Tilts.

Up Tilt
Think a slightly faster Forward Tilt that covers Link's body. seriously this move is insane it can string with itself at lower percents for the classic Up Tilt -> Up Tilt -> Up Smash string that does decent damage and puts players in a disadvantage due to being above a Link who can follow them with pretty much anything.
In Neutral it can be used to intercept some attacks and approaches and punish hard fro doing so.

Forward Smash.
Risky, but rewarding if you get it, Forward Smash can be used as a hard punish on rolls or laggy moves for a good 25+% and is one of Link's strongest kill options, it's first hit isn't too bad on the endlag but it's use is limited in neutral.

Down Smash
One of, if not the, fastest smash Link has Down smash pops up un the first hit, and is a powerful semi spike on the back hit, in neutral it works as a cover for cross ups and predictable rolls behind Link. much like almost everything else, it too can kill fairly reliably.

Up Smash
Fast start up and being a self linking multi hit smash Link's Up smash can challenge a lot of aerial moves and spaced right can punish falling counters hard. In neutral it is more of a area denial attack and a hard punish for approaches.

Grab
A long ranged Tether Grab (I think the third longest in the game but I'm not certain) and a Tether Recovery, Link's grab is somewhat slow coming out but is very long and very painful to get caught in. Much like many of the cast Link's down throw is a combo starter while his up throw can kill around 170% on pretty much everyone which makes it a stock cap tool. Aside from Up Throw Link's Throws are some of his few moves that don't kill. instead they act as positioning and combo starters.

Neutral Special
A quick (By comparison) weak projectile, uncharged, Link's bow can be charged up for a solid 12% of damage and some nasty knockback, unchanged it has 4% damage and the ability to jab lock to mid/high percents.
In neutral play it can act as an area denial for ground approaches and a disruptor because of how fast and small the arrow actually is, it is more than capable of slipping through hitboxes to disrupt attacks.
If you get the player offstage it can be used for sniping and gimping.

Side Special
The (in)famous Gale Boomerang, Gale is fairly controversial since there is a decently large, though now mostly silent, group of Link players who absolutely hate it because it isn't his melee rang and has a "stupid windbox"
However objectively speaking Gale serves as a very strong spacing tool and a tall hitbox that can be angled to hit aerial targets or to deliberately trap players with the wind. It can be an effective walling tool however keep in mind that players can use the wind to get a rapid approach at Link, when this happens just smash or grab as your attack will either clash, or beat out theirs (There are exceptions such as Little Mac with super armor), and Grab will stop most everything else.

Down Special
Link's Bombs, these have been around for a long time. And have almost always been used to combo or to provide area denial and stage control. In smash 4 Bombs are perhaps the strongest projectile in the game as they will either beat out, or stop every non transcendent projectile in the game (Litterally every single one, charge shots, super missiles, Limit Blade Beam, shadow ball, aura sphere, you get the idea) Bombs are just great tools and should be abused as much as possible with how good they are.

Up Special
Only on a punish, this move as too much lag to be used as more than that and recovery.

Neutral Air
This move is godly, only seven frames of startup and a sweetspot that hits for 11% on top of an overall hitbox that pretty much cover's Link. The entire move can kill and gimp depending on what you hit with and it can auto cancel out of a hop (I think), In neutral it is a good cross up and poing tool as well as a good tool for stuffing approaches and starting your own.

Forward Air
Strong two hit attack that can shred shields if both hits connect and is fairly safe if spaced properly. Fair is however somewhat laggy and is best used as a mixup or to intercept attacks.

Up Air
Deceptivly long and always painful Up air can also intercept approaches and punish air dodges which can net kills. Not seen much in neutral but it can be a mixup on taller character and it can cover againt airborn targets.

Back Air
fast, auto cancels, and can combo into many moves. There isn't a reason not to use thise move, especially if you can Reverse Aerial Rush or as a cross up on shields. Throw this out if you don't intend to grab after landing and use it to poke targets.

Down Air
Deceptively safe on shields. Down Air has a nice bounce and a strong hit that can kill reliably and seet up juggles,it can also spike. It is best applied as a mixup on shield or for disrupting some attacks, it can even bounce off of prjectiles for some fun shenanigans.

 

[Deleted member]

So, personally I don't only use Bombslides for movement, even though it's really good for getting out in a jam. So I'm gonna list some cool combos, but no % because it varies a lot and I really can't be bothered.

First we have Links Bombslide -> Grab. A pretty good one but only at early %, either they get hit by the bomb and the grab becomes true or they shield the bomb at when you grab them because they are unsure on what to do, but if they are prepared for it... well you can probably imagine how free of a punish it is.

Next up we have Bombslide -> Usmash/Utilt. Good for building % and thanks to the large amount of hitstun the bomb deals you usually don't have to blind guess if you hit or not. Also, if you manage to get reverse Utilt instead of a normal one you can at some % get a true ish Uair.

Bombslide -> Fsmash/Ftilt. In my opinion not the best one, though you can get more damage out of a Fsmash then a Usmash it's most of the time better going for the Usmash as at least you know that one will probably hit all hits while Fsmash may only hit the 1st hit... and Ftilt just sends them away, not really worth.

Bombslide -> RAR Bair. Doesn't sound so good at first untill you realize that it can be comboed into a 2nd bair and sometimes UpB, even after the 2nd bair. It also works at a lot of varying % which is nice. I've gotten Dthrow Bombslide -> RAR Bair -> UpB at around 85% before with it being true, but I have no idea how to do that consistently. Oh yeah, it took their stock.

Bombslide -> Fair. My absolute favorite, after you've dealt a little bit of % it's true and still allows you to hit both hits of Fair a lot of times, and it stays true for a LONG time. It's an incredibly easy way to kill, If the bomb hits at late%... they're probably dead if you're close ish to ledge.

Bombslide -> Uair basically the only time when you should use this IMO is if you know that Fair will only hit the first hitbox to deal 3 extra %. Or Fair is unable to kill which happens at later % when the bomb sends them to high up or if they are at middle stage.

Bombslide -> Nair, Its a thing I guess, good knock back if you get the sweetspot but I most of the time so no reason to go for it.

Bombslide -> Dair. EVIL, if you can read someone getting up from ledge at around 40%+... it's over they are dead GG see ya. They will be spiked hard, and also this stays true for a long time though you may have to double jump at some point at which... just go for the fair, or Uair. C'mon.

Bombslide -> UpB, you get some nice% and usually sends them of stage... usually, sometimes you get the back swing which means they get center stage. Unless you were the one near ledge which in that case, you get center stage... YAAY

And then we have Bombslide -> Arrow/Boomerang/Zair. if you aren't able to reach them then this is ok for some nice %. No reason to let a Bombslide go to waste even if it's anti climatic.

Probably forgot some or left some incorrect information about some but that's life, and I hope someone can correct me on it
So yeah, Bombslides are really really good. Another thing that is good with them is that they to some extent is removing the option for the opponent to jump out of shield and grab the bomb because you're already up in their face and that would be an easy punish.

Edit: I forgot about Bombslide -> Dash attack. It has good damage and because it also has a hitbox during the over head swing it works for a respectable amount of %. But the same as Ftilt where it just pushed the opponent away.

Edit: Thank you to the one who removed accidental quote <3
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
On another subject, I'm dumb and just now realized that Link has a super easy kill setup which can be safe if spaced correctly... It's Landing Zair -> UpB If they shield the Zair, well they shielded the Zair, good job (applause). And if they didn't shield the Zair then the UpB is true. I'm sure you can also get Dsmash as it is 1 frame faster the UpB... but meh. Also, if you're close you can get Usmash but at that point you ave to be so close that they would be able to shield grab you which beats the point.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok I finally got some time to get some testing done. I've wanted to gather data on rage for a while now to make the Down-throw follow up post even better.

I plan to have Link at 60%, 80%, 100%, 125% and 150% because rage starts upwards from 35% and this was the best I could do using the handicapped percents available.

Keep in mind that it's possible for there to be slight discrepancies amounting to like 1% difference either way, and this is to be expected partly due to human error and partly due to not being able to access decimal percents.

The following is an example of what I've got for Sheik.

Sheik

Link at 60%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 8% [Add 8%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 60% [Add 10%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 112% [Add 12%]

Link at 80%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 14% [Add 14%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 67% [Add 17%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 121% [Add 21%]

Link at 100%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 20% [Add 20%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 74% [Add 24%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 130% [Add 30%]

Link at 125%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 27% [Add 27%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 83% [Add 33%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 141% [Add 41%]

Link at 150%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 35% [Add 35%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 93% [Add 43%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 151% [Add 51%]


The idea is to have something like this in an extra spoiler at the bottom of each character's section. So just as an example, you're on 100% and you just sealed one of Sheik's stocks. She comes back and almost immediately you get a grab with Sheik still on 0%.
The chart tells you:
0%: Sheik can avoid U-tilt by airdodging and can avoid U-smash only by DJing away to an immediate airdodge, or by hitting Link with Nair.

10%: U-tilt is unavoidable.

20%: As above except that U-smash is unavoidable now too.

So what you should go for is a D-throw to U-smash.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Is there any useful purpose for Link to throw the Bomb downwards while he's standing on the ground, other than to damage himself by the Bomb explosion? Like is it possible for him to to catch his opponent in a certain situation where they're hanging from the ledge without any Invincibility Frames left, and that Link is standing right above them?

If so, then can it be a possibility for Link to close out their stock with a spike from his Custom Meteor Bombs in a way that's similar to Luigi's Down Taunt?

Also, can anyone let me know if Link gets damaged or not by the Bomb explosion if he throws the Bomb downwards while standing right next to his opponent and whether or not his opponent will also get damaged in the process?

I'm asking all of this b/c I'm currently unable to test all of these things out for myself.

 

[Stryker95]

Also, can anyone let me know if Link gets damaged or not by the Bomb explosion if he throws the Bomb while standing right next to his opponent and whether or not his opponent will also get damaged in the process?

If you are standing right next to your opponent and you down throw a bomb it will damage both. If thrown at the opponent it will only damage the opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there any useful purpose for Link to throw the Bomb downwards while he's standing on the ground, other than to damage himself by the Bomb explosion? Like is it possible for him to to catch his opponent in a certain situation where they're hanging from the ledge without any Invincibility Frames left, and that Link is standing right above them?

If so, then can it be a possibility for Link to close out their stock with a spike from his Custom Meteor Bombs in a way that's similar to Luigi's Down Taunt?

Also, can anyone let me know if Link gets damaged or not by the Bomb explosion if he throws the Bomb while standing right next to his opponent and whether or not his opponent will also get damaged in the process?

I'm asking all of this b/c I'm currently unable to test all of these things out for myself.

Nope, standing bomb downthrow is basically useless with the one exception for with the meteor bombs on opponents who are on ledge without Iframes. I know people used to list things like lag cancel by being blowen up by a bomb as a thing you can do, and you can... but it's bad. Why is it bad, remember how easy it is to combo of the hitlag that bombs deal, that's also dealt to you meaning that you. Some interesting things about being hit by a standing downwards bombthrow though is that you will always and I mean always be sent left facing the right (assuming you're not doing a Jump canceled Dthrow or frameperfect Dthrow bombslide). Why is this? NO IDEA, I guess that's just how the game handles it when you get hit directly in the middle, sends you to the left. Never tested it with any other character though as I can't be bothered. And that's about it.

Edit: Turns out that the explosion will send Link left even is he's doing a frame perfect downthrow bombslide ot jump canceled downthrow. So that's interesting as Link does move a little bit before being hit by the bomb.

 

[JohnKnight416]

If you are standing right next to your opponent and you down throw a bomb it will damage both. If thrown at the opponent it will only damage the opponent.

Thanks for the clarification with that first sentence, that was the only one that I needed confirmation on. So I guess we can conclude that Down Throwing the Bomb while standing next to an opponent isn't helpful for comboing purposes. However, I'm thinking that Link can use that as a sort of an escape option for avoiding a deadly blow, such as a Smash Attack or a very strong Dash Attack like Ike's, during a tense certain situation. since his Bomb does tend to launch him upwards and towards the opposite from where he's facing. Of course, there are far better and more optimal options than that. But it's still an option nonetheless.

Nope, standing bomb downthrow is basically useless with the one exception for with the meteor bombs on opponents who are on ledge without Iframes. I know people used to list things like lag cancel by being blowen up by a bomb as a thing you can do, and you can... but it's bad. Why is it bad, remember how easy it is to combo of the hitlag that bombs deal, that's also dealt to you meaning that you. Some interesting things about being hit by a standing downwards bombthrow though is that you will always and I mean always be sent left facing the right (assuming you're not doing a Jump canceled Dthrow or frameperfect Dthrow bombslide). Why is this? NO IDEA, I guess that's just how the game handles it when you get hit directly in the middle, sends you to the left. Never tested it with any other character though as I can't be bothered. And that's about it.

Edit: Turns out that the explosion will send Link left even is he's doing a frame perfect downthrow bombslide ot jump canceled downthrow. So that's interesting as Link does move a little bit before being hit by the bomb.

Do you know for sure if a Dthrow Bombslide will result in damaging Link the same way as it is whenever Link Dthrows the bomb down while he's standing?

 

[Derpnaster]

It won't, the bomb does a weird little bounce and goes inactive after that. Really kind of funny to watch.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Bombs can actually hit people through the platforms on Battlefield depending on how tall they are. You can get some nice kill confirms off of this where they wouldn't be possible if you were on the ground with the opponent. If you full hop Dthrow from the ground and land on the platform, you can get bomb > Usmash at any %. You can still get it to work by hitting the opponent through the platform but it's trickier and doesn't work quite as well since you have to land first (it's best to go for Fair or ASA instead in that case before landing on the platform, which also works at any %).

The fact that bombs do hit below the platforms has been known, but I thought I'd share it since it doesn't seem like anyone would remember that. It's pretty gimmicky because it can easily be avoided by crouching or dashing while underneath the platform. Not everyone will expect to be hit though, so it's best get the most out of it the first time, otherwise you probably won't get a second chance. Full hop dthrow from the ground (landing on the platform) into stuff is different though. You can get easy footstools too.

 

[Deleted member]

Do you know for sure if a Dthrow Bombslide will result in damaging Link the same way as it is whenever Link Dthrows the bomb down while he's standing?

Yes, I'm 100% sure. I've tested it multiple times and it always turned out the same.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So I guess we can conclude that Down Throwing the Bomb while standing next to an opponent isn't helpful for comboing purposes. However, I'm thinking that Link can use that as a sort of an escape option for avoiding a deadly blow, such as a Smash Attack or a very strong Dash Attack like Ike's, during a tense certain situation. since his Bomb does tend to launch him upwards and towards the opposite from where he's facing. Of course, there are far better and more optimal options than that. But it's still an option nonetheless.

LMAO.
Ok but seriously, no trolling please.

It won't, the bomb does a weird little bounce and goes inactive after that. Really kind of funny to watch.

What you saw was a down-throw bombslide using a meteor bomb, and it does not go inactive until at a complete rest.


Now can we please stop talking about throwing the bomb down at yourself? I'm dying here.

 

[emefcue]

i wasn't sure if this should go in the advance techniques or not, but i have been trying to get the down throw bomb to footstool to nair combo. but i can never get the nair reset to connect. it simply goes through the fighter every time. any tips on this??

 

[Derpnaster]

i wasn't sure if this should go in the advance techniques or not, but i have been trying to get the down throw bomb to footstool to nair combo. but i can never get the nair reset to connect. it simply goes through the fighter every time. any tips on this??

Well you have a limited number of frames (I think 20 or so) with which to connect the NAir after the target hits the ground, visually that's the bouncing animation and with a strong hit there should be some sort of blue-green to yellow shockwave.

Normally you could tech falli but footstools can't be teched so you just get the 20 frames. If you are too slow, what happens is those frames have passed already and that window has closed.

 

[luke_atyeo]

i wasn't sure if this should go in the advance techniques or not, but i have been trying to get the down throw bomb to footstool to nair combo. but i can never get the nair reset to connect. it simply goes through the fighter every time. any tips on this??

dont forget that in the same way that you can do a short hop or a full hop from the ground depending on how long you press the jump button, you can also do a short hop footstool or a full hop footstool depending on how long you press the jump button. If you are having trouble getting the nair reset to connect, make sure you arent doing a full hop footstool as that will make it take longer for you to get to them with the nair making it harder to hit within the specific window you need to.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

i wasn't sure if this should go in the advance techniques or not, but i have been trying to get the down throw bomb to footstool to nair combo. but i can never get the nair reset to connect. it simply goes through the fighter every time. any tips on this??

Try changing the character you're versing. Some characters' hurtboxes are simply too low to the ground to get hit by Nair. I did a bunch of tests a while ago in a PM to see how high up each character's hurtbox is when lying down on their front and back, though I don't think I ever posted it. I'll see if I can find it.
Yeah here we go.

I think the most important thing to test will be the 'corpse' hurtbox height. It's going to require a bit of ingenuity to figure out, but I have an idea. I'll need to create a custom stage with a series of thinly layered platforms at a series of angles, then have Fox stand on each of the platforms and see how far down he can get and still be able to shoot someone lying on the ground beside him, on a raised flat platform, then I could get actual numbers as results. I'm not sure how well this will work, but we'll see.

It's working quite well.

Ok, so the numbers will represent each perfectly (and consistently) spaced integer/platform. 1 will represent the first platform which is well below the platform the opponent will be such that the laser pretty much travels along the surface of the stage, and then each subsequent number will be one integer/platform up from that.

At the very least it should give you a good indication as to how high up the hurtboxes are. There could be mistakes in the testing method that I hadn't considered but overall it works quite well. Oh yeah, and I don't have Lucas or Mewtwo on my wii-u, so, yeah. You'll just have to figure those out yourself.

Also keep in mind that this is only one of the factors that will affect how difficult it is. Fall speed and aerial mobility and others.



Mario:
On his back he gets hit up to 7 then 8 misses, so we'll give him an 8.
On his front he gets hit up to 5 then 6 misses, so he gets a 6.
Most vulnerable on his head so in other words 'High' on his standing character model.
You get the point.

Luigi:
Back 6.
Front 5.
High.

Peach:
Back 3.
Front 4.
Low.

Bowser:
Back 24^ (I only had 24 platforms then I ran out of available pieces... but my guess is he would have been a 25 or 26).
Front 22.
Mid.

Yoshi:
Back 9.
Front 10.
High.

Rosalina:
Back 4.
Front 5.
Lower Mid.

Bowser Jr.:
Back 19.
Front 18.
Mid.

Wario:
Back 11.
Front 15.
Mid.

DK:
Back 24^ (This makes absolutely no sense visually speaking. There's a spot around the middle where his chest is and the hurtbox extends super far for no reason. I was just starting to miss shots at 24 when DK breathed out, so I'm guess around 25 to 26.)
Front 17.
Middle.

Diddy:
Back 8.
Front 7.
Mid.

G&W:
Back 11.
Front 10.
Low/Mid.

Lil Mac:
Back 5.
Front 5.
Upper Mid.

Link:
Back 9. (sticks his knee up)
Front 5.
Low/Mid.

Zelda:
Back 3.
Front 3.
Mid.

Sheik:
Back 4.
Front 3.
Mid.

Ganon:
Back 8.
Front 10.
Mid.

Toon:
Back 6.
Front 8.
High.

Samus:
Back 10.
Front 10.
High/Mid.

ZSS:
Back 4.
Front 4.
Mid.

Pit:
Back 8.
Front 6.
Mid.

Palutena:
Back 5.
Front 4.
Mid.

Marth:
Back 3.
Front 6.
Mid.

Ike:
Back 10.
Front 6.
Upper Mid.

Robin:
Back 5.
Front 5.
Mid.

DHD:
Back 16.
Front 15.
Mid.

Kirby:
Back 11.
Front 11.
Mid.

King D3:
Back 22.
Front 21.
Low.

MK:
Back 14.
Front 15.
Mid.

Fox:
Back 7.
Front 8.
Mid.

Falco:
Back 8.
Front 7.
Mid.

Pikachu:
Back 8.
Front 8.
Mid.

Charizard:
Back 18.
Front 17.
Low.

Lucario:
Back 7.
Front 7.
Lower Mid.

Jiggs:
Back 14.
Front 14.
Mid.

Greninja:
Back 6.
Front 8.
Mid.

R.O.B.:
Back 23.
Front 24^ (maybe 26).
Low.

Ness:
Back 8.
Front 8.
High.

Falcon:
Back 6.
Front 8.
Mid.

Villager:
Back 9.
Front 9.
High.

Olimar:
Back 10.
Front 11.
High.

Wii-fit:
Back 3.
Front 3.
Mid.

Shulk:
Back 7.
Front 3.
Mid.

Dr. Mario:
Back 8.
Front 6.
High.

Dark Pit:
Back 8.
Front 6.
Mid.

Lucina:
Back 3.
Front 6.
Mid.

Pac:
Back 13.
Front 14.
Mid.

Mega:
Back 6.
Front 6.
High.

Sonic:
Back 7.
Front 8.
High.

Ryu:
Back 6.
Front 5.
Upper Mid.

Mii Fight:
Back 5.
Front 4.
High.

Mii Gun:
Back 5.
Front 5.
High.

Mii Sword:
Back 5.
Front 4.
High.

And lol I just realised that this was back when I didn't have all the characters. I still have the same custom stage I used so I'll quickly get the ones I missed.

Mewtwo:
Back 12.
Front 9.
Low.

Lucas:
Back 8.
Front 8.
High.

Roy:
Back 4.
Front 6.
Upper Mid.

Cloud:
Back 10. (knee sticks up)
Front 5.
Low/mid.

Corrin:
Back 10. (knee)
Front 4.
Low/mid.

Bayonetta:
Back 4.
Front 4.
Mid.

 

[Dumbfire]

Hey guys so much for theorycrafting something practical -- fsmash is really strong... REALLY STRONG. and same speed as ftilt... link is clutch king, fair / dsmash / ftilt / fsmash are going to kill soooo early, link is 'never surrender' personified so use that clutch factor, you'll find most key sets won by notable links were CLUTCHED -- scizor - xzax, cat - s1, sova unknown - umeki &c. I'm watching tons of footage again to update the archive and if there's anything to link it's that, not bombstool to nair reset to soft nair to arrow lock to semi-charged b-reverse up b into wavebounced arrow gimp... Use those fundamentals, the trickiness in terms of psychology and movement not tech, and clutch it out, and never forget

"Playing Link is a risk, might as well take risks" -- Legan

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

and same speed as ftilt...

Well, in practice F-smash is actually 1 frame faster; F-tilt will only hit out in front of Link from frame 16.
Your overall point is very true though.

 

[Wii U Highlights]

(Tested in training mode on Wii Fit Trainer at 20-24%)

While on a platform do a full hop, wait, the attack the opponent with a down air so that the second hit of down air hits just before the down air finishes, and make sure you're airborne when it does. The opponent should be knocked right in front of you. Follow up with an up-b. This will deal 42% damage if done correctly.

To get the opponent to 20-24% do a down throw to up smash.

 

[Catana]

okay troll confirmed ignore him please

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

(Tested in training mode on Wii Fit Trainer at 20-24%)

While on a platform do a full hop, wait, the attack the opponent with a down air so that the second hit of down air hits just before the down air finishes, and make sure you're airborne when it does. The opponent should be knocked right in front of you. Follow up with an up-b. This will deal 42% damage if done correctly.

To get the opponent to 20-24% do a down throw to up smash.

I've moved your thread in here. Please stop making threads for well known or obvious combos. You may post them in here instead in the future.

 

[Wii U Highlights]

I've moved your thread in here. Please stop making threads for well known or obvious combos. You may post them in here instead in the future.

Ok, I understand.

 

[Catana]

I've moved your thread in here. Please stop making threads for well known or obvious combos. You may post them in here instead in the future.

Wii U Highlights you may, but its preferred if you stopped posting here altogether

 

[Rizen]

I was testing drop through platform>aerial spin attack as a follow up. I used Bowser since Link doesn't have any Dthrow combos on him. At 65% I comboed Dthrow>drop upB on him according to the training mode combo reader (don't know if it's true with DI). I also was able to combo bomb throw>drop>upB at 70%ish. I'm not sure how many frames dropping through a platform is but drop>upB could be a good way for Link to avoid the laggy 7 frame jumpsquat for followups after Utilt stops working. He rises a good distance with air upB and it starts frame 8 (same as Utilt).

Thoughts?

 

[Stryker95]

I was testing drop through platform>aerial spin attack as a follow up. I used Bowser since Link doesn't have any Dthrow combos on him. At 65% I comboed Dthrow>drop upB on him according to the training mode combo reader (don't know if it's true with DI). I also was able to combo bomb throw>drop>upB at 70%ish. I'm not sure how many frames dropping through a platform is but drop>upB could be a good way for Link to avoid the laggy 7 frame jumpsquat for followups after Utilt stops working. He rises a good distance with air upB and it starts frame 8 (same as Utilt).

Thoughts?

If you manage to get a grab while on a platform, then sure, that sounds like a reliable course of action.

 

[Rizen]

If you manage to get a grab while on a platform, then sure, that sounds like a reliable course of action.

It's situational, Link being able to grab out of the air in SSB4 helps. I can see it happening on SV occasionally.
You can platform drop>upB for a followup from any move (besides down ones) so bomb/Utilt/jab2 vs a floaty>drop upB might be a thing to do off a read.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was testing drop through platform>aerial spin attack as a follow up. I used Bowser since Link doesn't have any Dthrow combos on him. At 65% I comboed Dthrow>drop upB on him according to the training mode combo reader (don't know if it's true with DI). I also was able to combo bomb throw>drop>upB at 70%ish. I'm not sure how many frames dropping through a platform is but drop>upB could be a good way for Link to avoid the laggy 7 frame jumpsquat for followups after Utilt stops working. He rises a good distance with air upB and it starts frame 8 (same as Utilt).

Thoughts?

It's testing time.
First of all, how long does it take to drop through a platform?
Link will drop through the platform on frame 3. You can input the aerial Up-B on frame 4 at the earliest (without it cancelling into a grounded Up-B) but the first frame of the aerial Up-B won't actually occur until frame 5 regardless (so there's a 1 frame buffer window for some reason), meaning that the first hit will hit on frame 12 at the earliest. How very interesting.
Does this mean I have something to test against the whole cast? Yes, yes it does.

But why stop there? How about platform drops to instant aerials? or platform drops to DJ aerials? (DJ activating immediately of course). With the time we might be able to shave off our jump-squat by dropping through the platform instead, it could open up quite a few follow-ups that either maximise damage or allow for a follow-up where one would otherwise be impossible.
Anyway I've got a lot to look into. Naturally of course this later part would probably only be relevant for earlier percents and heavies, but even so.

Edit: omg.. the dream is real. D-throw to Drop Through to DJ Fair, guaranteed on Fox between 70 and 90%. [still requires a bit more testing but I'm not even supposed to be focusing on this right now.. I was just curious.]

Edit 2: It should be noted that instead of a 10 frame buffer window at the end of the d-throw animation, I believe you only have a 4 frame buffer window to hit and hold down in, otherwise if you hit and hold down on the 5th last frame of the d-throw animation, you'll just crouch. (checked using the 7 frames of a shield-drop)

I'll be updating the D-throw post as I go with the platform drop through to Up-B percent ranges if you want to check it out. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552 I've only done Mario so far.. I keep getting side-tracked.

 

[epicnights]

I'm sure this is known already, but it's possible to recover from offstage after doing a FH FF fair from the stage. I'm looking into how late you can initiate the fair and still recover, but I'm not exactly the most diligent when it comes to labbing, so the exact frames will probably take a while to get.

 

[epicnights]

Ok, so I was mindlessly labbing random things and found a few things, so I figure I would list them below. I checked through all the quotes and I didn't notice any of them on there as well, so it might be new and useful, or it could be old stuff and I'm just too dense to read properly.

1. It seems that we are able to buffer an item drop out of an aerial without a Z-air coming out. I'm not sure of the frames for it, but I recall seeing @~Unknown~ doing C4 into a ZAC B-air, then z-dropping the bomb mid-air without Z-air coming out and recatching it with a DJ ZAC B-air during his handwarmers. In fact, I took the time to find an instance of this in VGBC's VODs. https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/73765041?t=03h52m30s (incidence occurs 10 seconds after the linked time) After a bit of testing, this does work with all of our aerials, so consistent usage should make Link's neutral much more threatening.
2. Link is almost always able to recover after a FH FF F-air, even if it is fastfalled on the earliest possible frame. The only times that you cannot recover are when the F-air is fastfalled immediately after inputting the F-air. Granted, this is only a rough estimate as I don't have the free time to check the frames like Foxy does, however the best way I found to avoid the possible SD situation is to let your stick reset to neutral between the F-air and the fastfall, which creates a perfect frame gap between the F-air and the fastfall that allows us to act out of F-air in time to recover. SH FF Fair is also possible, but significantly less so. doing the F-air too early simply hits above and at the ledge, while doing it too late causes you not to be able to recover, with a small sweetspot in-between that allows you to recover while hitting below the ledge. Unfortunately, due to being a much more frame tight action than FH FF F-air, there is no easy solution to timing the F-air, making FH FF F-air the preferable option.
   While this might not seem very important, the fact that smash hitboxes are interpolated(Meaning that the space between the positions of a hitbox on two consecutive frames is also covered by the hitbox) in addition to having the 3rd fastest fastfall speed makes the two frames of F-air 2 cover a significantly larger area than they normally would be able to, covering a large area in a strong, killing hitbox.
3. Dropzone Z-air into immediate DJ n-air is a possible edgeguarding tool as well. Z-air's hitbox is out for 12 frames and is a good weak hitbox to interrupt recoveries, and the following Nair can either seal the gimp or even get the KO cleanly. It's easy to recover from as well, though you can SD if you're too lax with it.

 

[Dumbfire]

fascinating, definitely gonna win tourneys now

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, so I was mindlessly labbing random things and found a few things, so I figure I would list them below. I checked through all the quotes and I didn't notice any of them on there as well, so it might be new and useful, or it could be old stuff and I'm just too dense to read properly.

1. It seems that we are able to buffer an item drop out of an aerial without a Z-air coming out. I'm not sure of the frames for it, but I recall seeing @~Unknown~ doing C4 into a ZAC B-air, then z-dropping the bomb mid-air without Z-air coming out and recatching it with a DJ ZAC B-air during his handwarmers. In fact, I took the time to find an instance of this in VGBC's VODs. https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/73765041?t=03h52m30s (incidence occurs 10 seconds after the linked time) After a bit of testing, this does work with all of our aerials, so consistent usage should make Link's neutral much more threatening.
2. Link is almost always able to recover after a FH FF F-air, even if it is fastfalled on the earliest possible frame. The only times that you cannot recover are when the F-air is fastfalled immediately after inputting the F-air. Granted, this is only a rough estimate as I don't have the free time to check the frames like Foxy does, however the best way I found to avoid the possible SD situation is to let your stick reset to neutral between the F-air and the fastfall, which creates a perfect frame gap between the F-air and the fastfall that allows us to act out of F-air in time to recover. SH FF Fair is also possible, but significantly less so. doing the F-air too early simply hits above and at the ledge, while doing it too late causes you not to be able to recover, with a small sweetspot in-between that allows you to recover while hitting below the ledge. Unfortunately, due to being a much more frame tight action than FH FF F-air, there is no easy solution to timing the F-air, making FH FF F-air the preferable option.
   While this might not seem very important, the fact that smash hitboxes are interpolated(Meaning that the space between the positions of a hitbox on two consecutive frames is also covered by the hitbox) in addition to having the 3rd fastest fastfall speed makes the two frames of F-air 2 cover a significantly larger area than they normally would be able to, covering a large area in a strong, killing hitbox.
3. Dropzone Z-air into immediate DJ n-air is a possible edgeguarding tool as well. Z-air's hitbox is out for 12 frames and is a good weak hitbox to interrupt recoveries, and the following Nair can either seal the gimp or even get the KO cleanly. It's easy to recover from as well, though you can SD if you're too lax with it.

1. It has been in the AT thread the whole time.
2. There is a big difference between the available options one should use and the available options one can use.
Also, I have less free time to lab than you seem to realise, so I only take on things that I find interesting and that are potentially very important; unless of course a friend requests it, then anything goes.
3. I don't like it.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I'm sure that Fox and some other people know about this already, but I'll like to point out that Link's Soft Hit Nair > Dash Attack is a confirmed Combo when the opponent's percentage the 100% range since they can't tech the soft Hit of Link's Nair due to the Untechable Spinning Animation.

Edit: The opponent can still DI upwards or Jump to cause the random factor of avoiding the Critical Hit Animation, so this doesn't make this a True Combo

 

[Stryker95]

I'm sure that Fox and some other people know about this already, but I'll like to point out that Link's Soft Hit Nair > Dash Attack is a confirm Ture Combo when the opponent's percentage the 100% range since they can't tech the soft Hit of Link's Nair due to the Untechable Spinning Animation.

No, we cannot call it a True combo because many can DI up and jump and because of the random factor that it may not do the Critical Hit Animation.

Edit: The real true combos for NAir to DA come out later with some possible combos.

 

[JohnKnight416]

No, we cannot call it a True combo because many can DI up and jump and because of the random factor that it may not do the Critical Hit Animation.

Edit: The real true combos for NAir to DA come out later with some possible combos.

Ok, then this wouldn't make this a True Combo. But even so, it's worth noting that the opponent can't tech the Soft Hit of Nair at 100%.

Speaking of which, what are some of Link's other moves that can put his opponent in that Spinning Animation at above 100% where they would be unable to Tech besides his Nair?

 

[Stryker95]

Even so, it's still a guaranteed combo since the opponent isn't able to tech the soft hit of Nair at 100%.

Speaking of which, what are some of Link's other moves that can put his opponent in that Spinning Animation at just the right angle where they would be unable to Tech?

No, as I said, you can DI up and jump away, people jumped the gun on this because they don't know how to lab properly. If you want to post some information about this, give the places where one can't DI up and jump away and then post that, or else we feed into this idea that if you see someone spinning you can get a free DA when that is rarely the case. I spent many hours on this, trust me, it is less often then people think.
As far as other situations, BAir can but it is the same situation, rarely if ever true.

EDIT: As far as your added question about NAir to Neutral B, it is also situational, but in some cases it is possible (no/bad DI, spinning animation, and NAir doesn't knock them back too far and Link is able to autocancel or has enough time with a FF). I have not found the percentages possible because I have more important things first. If I ever run out of stuff to lab, then I can get to it. Or someone else can do it.

 

[JohnKnight416]

No, as I said, you can DI up and jump away, people jumped the gun on this because they don't know how to lab properly. If you want to post some information about this, give the places where one can't DI up and jump away and then post that, or else we feed into this idea that if you see someone spinning you can get a free DA when that is rarely the case. I spent many hours on this, trust me, it is less often then people think.
As far as other situations, BAir can but it is the same situation, rarely if ever true.

I've just re-edited what I've said previously, so hopefully that'll correct that bit of misinformation.

Btw, do you know if Link can still get a guaranteed Arrow Lock with his NeutralB after a Soft-hit Nair when his opponent is at 100%? Or will that be above the percentage range limit in which Link can Lock with his NeutralB?

 

[Stryker95]

Btw, do you know if Link can still get a guaranteed Arrow Lock with his NeutralB after a Soft-hit Nair when his opponent is at 100%? Or will that be above the percentage range limit in which Link can Lock with his NeutralB?

Sure, just go to the op under data dumps and someone conveniently listed the percents where arrow locking stops working.

Edit: Just to avoid a double post.

Major thanks to @ScizorVX for the following data on possible combos for soft NAir to DA, not taking the silly critical hit reeling animation into account. These are all possible for DI away or no DI, but the opponent can DI down and tech. Still useful. Straight from @ScizorVX himself (who doesn't like posting):
Yoshi: 97-115(108-115 nair into them) (isn't safe!!)

Olimar: 85-95

Rob: 105-125

Corrin: 99-120(116-120 Nair into them)

(Isn't safe!)

Bayonetta: 96-110

Falcon: 110-120
Fox: 92-100 very unsafe at all points (tight spacing)

Ness: 85-105

Palutena: 96-105

Samus: 100-125

Bowser Jr: 97-120(110-120 Nair into him, unsafe)

Shulk: 100-120

Mewtwo: 85-100


The following are where soft hit NAir to DA are true, the NAir is autocancelled and hit as late as possible.
First number is where it began to work, second is where it stopped working:
Peach: 100-105
Rosa: 95-105
For JP one must FF the NAir and so will not get the autocancel (too short.)
JP: 80-95

 

[Knife8193]

I realize the jab jab to stuff isn't real, but I was playing against a Lucas player and he said he was unable to escape from Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Up B with all known escape options (DJ, fast fall shield, aerial, airdodge). I imagine its because he is too floaty to fall and shield, has slow aerials, and has a slow double jump making it difficult or impossible for him to escape. Can anyone verify? There are probably more characters like this.

I also experimented with jab 1 > delayed jab 2 > Up B, it seems to work well as a mixup on characters that are normally able to fall and shield before 100%, but can start jumping out at later percents. For example, Diddy Kong can start jumping out of Jab Jab Up B after ~100% (before that he can shield), but if you delay the second jab, he ends up closer to the floor meaning he cannot jump out and has to rely on shield. If your opponent is not aware of the mixup or doesn't react, it can be a good kill confirm.