Link's Character Design/Playstyle May Need Major Changes

[DarkDeity15]

This to me just seems like a pretty big subject, and to be frank, I don't think it would get the attention it deserves by simply posting about it in another thread.

So on to the subject at hand. Have you ever noticed how if Link were to rely on his projectiles, he would either be considered dumb or mediocre? It's extremely difficult to get something that is well balanced while being good at the same time. This applies to any Smash game, not just PM. It just seems to me that the problems involving Link's projectiles are simply unavoidable. So I believe that the most appropriate solution to this is to fundementally change Link's character design so that he at least doesn't need to abuse his projectiles all the time. In other words, Link needs to become more of a sword character than he was before. However this doesn't mean that his projectile moves are to be replaced or become useless or anything. It just means that Link's projectiles should be modified to fit a more sword-focused version of Link.

Here is my idea on how Link can be less reliant on his projectiles (ie making him better able to play offensively with sword-play while still being able to zone pretty well). I could get into frame data, but I just don't have the time to research that kind of thing right now.

Movement:
His is mobility will need a very decent buff. Increased aerial mobility and running speed is a must.

Swordplay & Close Quarters Combat:
Cut down on the lag of Link's tilts, aerials, jab 1, dash attack and spin attack. Nerf their % output and/or knockback correspondingly or just change them up to fit Link's new character design. He should have very good combo potential while at the same time not being dumb. Make Link's first jab fast enough to be very safe on shield and able to set up grabs and kills by giving it more IASA frames. Jab Canceling Link's first jab would be a hell of a lot better than jab canceling his second jab for many reasons. Spin attack should be more of a "get off of me" move and therefore should be much quicker. Nerf the KB and damage, but keep the semi-spike hitbox. Smash attacks should be left the same for the most part, but make Usmash a kill move since Link will no longer need it to combo. He still needs kill options as well.

Projectiles:
The idea here is to make projectiles useful for zoning and racking a bit more extra damage, but not to the extent they're being used now;

Buffing the damage on Link's rang while increasing it's startup is recommended. Bombs should deal less damage and pulling one out should be much quicker. Reduce it's hitstun a bit as well, since Link will still be able to combo off of bombs just as well as before with his improved mobility. Arrows should deal less damage and have less cool-down.


So that's about all I've got to say for now. Feel free to vote in the poll and give your opinions. I'd like to see what you guys think. And if you've got any ideas for design changes, I'd like to see those as well. Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Beorn]

I don't agree with all of what you wrote here, but I do agree that Link should not be as reliant on his projectiles.
Making his arrows faster and his bombs pluck faster makes him a much better projectile spammer. This is the wrong way to go about fixing his reliance on projectiles.

Slowing down rang to melee speed or slightly faster by like 1 frame would be nice. He is just so unsafe on shield, has bad mobility, a bad recovery, a bad grab, and poor oos options, that throwing stuff becomes a crutch. This creates spamming, less skill intensive, very passive aggressive, and downright un-fun to fight play.

I've posted on this subject many times and feel very adamantly that Link is far too projectile intensive, while also being not good. This isn't fun for either player. The only things that makes Link bearable to fight are his combo weight and his general badness.

I play Link because I have always played him. He is fun to move around with and it feels really good to go back and forth with zoning and close range. Right now he is so good at zoning (in a vacuum) and so ... melee+1 at close range, that it becomes a good idea to mostly run and zone while keeping them out with and nairs and bairs if they get too close.

This is NOT to say 3.02 was a step in the right direction. I want nothing from 3.02 to be in 3.6. He was degenerate and even more spammy. I quit playing Project: M for a while because of 3.02 Link.


Copy paste of my personal changes for Link. Improving his recovery and close range options slightly while giving him a move besides arrows to get people offstage.

I don't think Link needs any big character changing buffs. He just needs a few small buffs here and there on his useless and already useful moves. I believe he is in a good place moveset and playstyle wise, he just needs some help.

FIXES:

1.Fixed hitbubble on tip of Uair (this should have been done ages ago.)

2.Visual fix on utilts first few frames where the sword is in front of link and goes into the zaxis.(it just strait up misses characters right in front of him when it looks like it should hit. Very confusing and
inconsistent as it always hit's big or tall characters but never small ones due to how far he goes into the zaxis and how long his sword stays there before coming out a bit above Marios head level.

3. Boomerang should come out slightly lower than it currently does. This would mean that some characters like shiek and marth wouldn't be able to dash right under the latter boomerangs hitbubble. Also look at the animation. It clearly comes out too high. View attachment 45544
BUFFS:

1. 2% added to last hit of up-b, nerf the damage on the second and third hit to add up to the original damage. (giving you 2 more shots at a bomb jump, and more uses onstage without losing recovery options)

2. Melee bomb knockback with slightly increased scaling so getting a bomb hit is more rewarding.(this would also make bomb jumping less effective and balance it out with the proposed up-b last hit damage buff.)

3. 1 frame off the start of Jab 1 ( going from frame 6 to 5) Giving him one fast option to beat out faster characters (this is links fastest ground based move and that is a sad thing for a character with low mobility and high endlag on most grounded moves)

4. Lower angle of ftilt (allowing link to get characters off stage faster and set up for his gimp game, while outright killing at higher percents. This is a slow move that needs to be placed well to be effective and that would not change. Currently Link is really lacking a low kb angle of any kind aside from arrows.) As a side note.Just making this move more powerful is really wasting the potential it has for rounding out links move set and giving him an option for getting characters off stage earlier. He doesn't need another Sakarai or even nearly Sakurai angled move. That's what most of his moves are, and currently this move is very niche. It's mostly just used for onstage edge guarding.

5. Sweet spot nair from 11 to 12% ( This would make more sense with the rest of the games nairs, give him slightly more advantage on shield and kill slightly earlier, onstage and off)

6. Utilt from 9 to 10 % (this is not a fast, or safe up-tilt it should be more damaging and slightly safer on shield.)
Or 1 frame off the startup ( keep the endlag the same.) Currently I rarely have a reason to use this move over usmash. Which is safer, more damaging, can be dacused, easier to connect with and similarly combo oriented. While being only 1 frame slower to start.

I Believe these changes would put him in line with the rest of the cast. Polishing his existing hitboxes and animations. Making him slightly better at keeping up the the speedy characters in this game. Giving him slightly better oos options and shield hit saftey. Helping him get kills and gimps earlier, which is actually a big problem for Link considering his poor recovery and the ease with which other characters can gimp him. Lastly, bringing his recovery more in line with other characters by giving him the same bomb jump utility as other characters that can bomb jump.


NERFS:

Boomerang throw + 1 or 2 frames off start up, and % from 11 to 15 (still slightly below melee, similar to toonlinks 3.5 rang)
This move is noob bait and hardly scales with skill. It is also slightly over centralizing, making Link less of a mid range zoner and more of an un-fun to fight bullet hell. With the proposed buffs to his close range and aerial game, he does not need this move to be a crutch for all his weaknesses. Though I love what the PMDT did with the range he throws it now.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I don't agree with all of what you wrote here, but I do agree that Link should not be as reliant on his projectiles.
Making his arrows faster and his bombs pluck faster makes him a much better projectile spammer. This is the wrong way to go about fixing his reliance on projectiles.

Slowing down rang to melee speed or slightly faster by like 1 frame would be nice. He is just so unsafe on shield, has bad mobility, a bad recovery, a bad grab, and poor oos options, that throwing stuff becomes a crutch. This creates spamming, less skill intensive, very passive aggressive, and downright un-fun to fight play.

I've posted on this subject many times and feel very adamantly that Link is far too projectile intensive, while also being not good. This isn't fun for either player. The only things that makes Link bearable to fight are his combo weight and his general badness.

I play Link because I have always played him. He is fun to move around with and it feels really good to go back and forth with zoning and close range. Right now he is so good at zoning (in a vacuum) and so ... melee+1 at close range, that it becomes a good idea to mostly run and zone while keeping them out with and nairs and bairs if they get too close.

This is NOT to say 3.02 was a step in the right direction. I want nothing from 3.02 to be in 3.6. He was degenerate and even more spammy. I quit playing Project: M for a while because of 3.02 Link.


Copy paste of my personal changes for Link. Improving his recovery and close range options slightly while giving him a move besides arrows to get people offstage.

I don't think Link needs any big character changing buffs. He just needs a few small buffs here and there on his useless and already useful moves. I believe he is in a good place moveset and playstyle wise, he just needs some help.

FIXES:

1.Fixed hitbubble on tip of Uair (this should have been done ages ago.)

2.Visual fix on utilts first few frames where the sword is in front of link and goes into the zaxis.(it just strait up misses characters right in front of him when it looks like it should hit. Very confusing and
inconsistent as it always hit's big or tall characters but never small ones due to how far he goes into the zaxis and how long his sword stays there before coming out a bit above Marios head level.

3. Boomerang should come out slightly lower than it currently does. This would mean that some characters like shiek and marth wouldn't be able to dash right under the latter boomerangs hitbubble. Also look at the animation. It clearly comes out too high. View attachment 45544
BUFFS:

1. 2% added to last hit of up-b, nerf the damage on the second and third hit to add up to the original damage. (giving you 2 more shots at a bomb jump, and more uses onstage without losing recovery options)

2. Melee bomb knockback with slightly increased scaling so getting a bomb hit is more rewarding.(this would also make bomb jumping less effective and balance it out with the proposed up-b last hit damage buff.)

3. 1 frame off the start of Jab 1 ( going from frame 6 to 5) Giving him one fast option to beat out faster characters (this is links fastest ground based move and that is a sad thing for a character with low mobility and high endlag on most grounded moves)

4. Lower angle of ftilt (allowing link to get characters off stage faster and set up for his gimp game, while outright killing at higher percents. This is a slow move that needs to be placed well to be effective and that would not change. Currently Link is really lacking a low kb angle of any kind aside from arrows.) As a side note.Just making this move more powerful is really wasting the potential it has for rounding out links move set and giving him an option for getting characters off stage earlier. He doesn't need another Sakarai or even nearly Sakurai angled move. That's what most of his moves are, and currently this move is very niche. It's mostly just used for onstage edge guarding.

5. Sweet spot nair from 11 to 12% ( This would make more sense with the rest of the games nairs, give him slightly more advantage on shield and kill slightly earlier, onstage and off)

6. Utilt from 9 to 10 % (this is not a fast, or safe up-tilt it should be more damaging and slightly safer on shield.)
Or 1 frame off the startup ( keep the endlag the same.) Currently I rarely have a reason to use this move over usmash. Which is safer, more damaging, can be dacused, easier to connect with and similarly combo oriented. While being only 1 frame slower to start.

I Believe these changes would put him in line with the rest of the cast. Polishing his existing hitboxes and animations. Making him slightly better at keeping up the the speedy characters in this game. Giving him slightly better oos options and shield hit saftey. Helping him get kills and gimps earlier, which is actually a big problem for Link considering his poor recovery and the ease with which other characters can gimp him. Lastly, bringing his recovery more in line with other characters by giving him the same bomb jump utility as other characters that can bomb jump.


NERFS:

Boomerang throw + 1 or 2 frames off start up, and % from 11 to 15 (still slightly below melee, similar to toonlinks 3.5 rang)
This move is noob bait and hardly scales with skill. It is also slightly over centralizing, making Link less of a mid range zoner and more of an un-fun to fight bullet hell. With the proposed buffs to his close range and aerial game, he does not need this move to be a crutch for all his weaknesses. Though I love what the PMDT did with the range he throws it now.

You say you don't agree with everything I've said, but we still have a pretty similar outlook on the matter lol.

 

[Beorn]

I agree with the sentiment that Link should be decentralized from item throwing, and more of a 50-50 or 40-60 mix of the two in favor of close combat spacing. I just don't agree that the changes you are proposing will fix this problem. It looks more to me like you don't like this characters move set and design and want large sweeping changes. While I believe he requires only a few small tweaks across his current move set to slightly decentralize and buff his current design and direction.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I agree with the sentiment that Link should be decentralized from item throwing, and more of a 50-50 or 40-60 mix of the two in favor of close combat spacing. I just don't agree that the changes you are proposing will fix this problem. It looks more to me like you don't like this characters move set and design and want large sweeping changes. While I believe he requires only a few small tweaks across his current move set to slightly decentralize and buff his current design and direction.

Doesn't that still mean that Link needs a major change in character design? What you're suggesting is still quite similar to my proposal. Making his gameplay geared more towards close combat spacing is still a pretty major chang imo. Currently, Link can't do that very well, and some of the changes I proposed encorage that idea as well.

 

[Beorn]

Yes Link should be changed. Again I agree with that. I don't agree with your particular changes. I like the usmash one though. I don't want link to be fast and rushdown with weaker faster projectiles. I want him to stay the same with slight buffs to a handfull of moves to make him a better character at close range. The boomerang nerf should do enough to decentralize him.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yes Link should be changed. Again I agree with that. I don't agree with your particular changes. I like the usmash one though. I don't want link to be fast and rushdown with weaker faster projectiles. I want him to stay the same with slight buffs to a handfull of moves to make him a better character at close range. The boomerang nerf should do enough to decentralize him.

Ah, ok I've got you now. The jab cancel idea I mentioned should be included either way though, don't you think? A buff in mobility is a must as well. It should at least be noticable.

 

[Frost_Aer0]

Yeah when I saw the hot box bubble on u-air I felt a shred of disappointment at the PMDT

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

What you are proposing is letting link keep his very effective zoning games with projectiles while also giving him better close range options. That's supposed to be his weakness lol. As for his sword not hitting where the animation is, try playing marth who has this problem with a ton of his moves. If you give link better options in close range, players are just going to be able to play keep away even better since when people get close he'll be able to stop them with faster tilts/jab not to mention that he'll already be harder to get in on with other characters since he has his movement buffs that you want. I don't think a 1 frame 'nerf' is really going to stop people from using boomerang either lol. The only thing link needs is a better bomb jump really.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I like the idea of making Link a beginner's character for zoning. It would be cool to see his normals to be more effective at mid range and then tone down his long range projectiles in a way that it teachers players effective use of projectiles. Basically in the future I'd want see him well rounded, and adaptable to many situations like he would be in his games.

 

[Beorn]

What you are proposing is letting link keep his very effective zoning games with projectiles while also giving him better close range options. That's supposed to be his weakness lol. As for his sword not hitting where the animation is, try playing marth who has this problem with a ton of his moves. If you give link better options in close range, players are just going to be able to play keep away even better since when people get close he'll be able to stop them with faster tilts/jab not to mention that he'll already be harder to get in on with other characters since he has his movement buffs that you want. I don't think a 1 frame 'nerf' is really going to stop people from using boomerang either lol. The only thing link needs is a better bomb jump really.

No, marth is missing a hitbubble on his down air and nothing else. In fact his tipper extends past his sword on many moves. Notice I didn't say anything about links missing hit bubble on dair. Lots of dairs in this game are negatively disjointed.

 

[Titanium]

What you are proposing is letting link keep his very effective zoning games with projectiles while also giving him better close range options. That's supposed to be his weakness lol.

I agree with this a fair bit. When it comes to changing Link to be a more close combat oriented character, some of the changes suggested above seem like they would detract from this purpose.

Beorn, in regards to f-tilt being more of a low angle move, that's just going to make it a better spacing tool so Link will just want to reset to neutral again. I would propose changes to his normal moves with only recovery nerfs to his specials so they can't be stringed together in a wall. For one thing, Link's d-tilt is a relatively fast move and sets people up, but if it's used out of a down-throw, you're more likely than not going to get the meteor hitbox. My ideal Link would have the meteor done away with so he could continue combos by catching people before they hit the ground (up tilt works alright for that, but it's nicer with a more base-knockback based move with less recovery). Additionally, his up-air is really his only option to keep people in the air since his nair and bair lose the disjoint (though they still have their place) and fair (first hit) and dair are both slow and kill moves, but it suffers from being out for so long (it has its advantages, I know). Again, my ideal Link would either shorten its active duration or decrease its landing lag so he could string it more easily.

I definitely support jab getting a speed increase and for the IASA to be smaller. I don't expect an assured grab/up-b, but having it be a bit tighter given most of Link's options take 10 frames to get out seems fair.

All of this said, I doubt these are the changes that will take place. The entire point of PM is to have a variety of characters which are mostly all viable and unique. As Link becomes more and more defined by his close-combat skills, it's killing the projectile based playstyle and making him more like Tink.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I agree with this a fair bit. When it comes to changing Link to be a more close combat oriented character, some of the changes suggested above seem like they would detract from this purpose.

Beorn, in regards to f-tilt being more of a low angle move, that's just going to make it a better spacing tool so Link will just want to reset to neutral again. I would propose changes to his normal moves with only recovery nerfs to his specials so they can't be stringed together in a wall. For one thing, Link's d-tilt is a relatively fast move and sets people up, but if it's used out of a down-throw, you're more likely than not going to get the meteor hitbox. My ideal Link would have the meteor done away with so he could continue combos by catching people before they hit the ground (up tilt works alright for that, but it's nicer with a more base-knockback based move with less recovery). Additionally, his up-air is really his only option to keep people in the air since his nair and bair lose the disjoint (though they still have their place) and fair (first hit) and dair are both slow and kill moves, but it suffers from being out for so long (it has its advantages, I know). Again, my ideal Link would either shorten its active duration or decrease its landing lag so he could string it more easily.

I definitely support jab getting a speed increase and for the IASA to be smaller. I don't expect an assured grab/up-b, but having it be a bit tighter given most of Link's options take 10 frames to get out seems fair.

All of this said, I doubt these are the changes that will take place. The entire point of PM is to have a variety of characters which are mostly all viable and unique. As Link becomes more and more defined by his close-combat skills, it's killing the projectile based playstyle and making him more like Tink.

Whether it makes him more like Tink or not doesn't really matter as long as they have very different move sets, which they do. They have very few moves that are alike besides specials.

 

[DarkDeity15]

What you are proposing is letting link keep his very effective zoning games with projectiles while also giving him better close range options. That's supposed to be his weakness lol. As for his sword not hitting where the animation is, try playing marth who has this problem with a ton of his moves. If you give link better options in close range, players are just going to be able to play keep away even better since when people get close he'll be able to stop them with faster tilts/jab not to mention that he'll already be harder to get in on with other characters since he has his movement buffs that you want. I don't think a 1 frame 'nerf' is really going to stop people from using boomerang either lol. The only thing link needs is a better bomb jump really.

The whole point is to buff him but not make him ridiculous. It doesn't matter what his weakness is "supposed" to be lol. Just give him some other weakness if necessary.