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Brawl Matchup Chart v3 Link vs. Samus

Red Arremer

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Current MU is +1 (-1 for Link)
Samus panel does not want a change.
Links want this to be 0.
 

Rizen

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The case for Link being even:

Samus doesn't have a better projectile game imo. Bombs cancel with fully charged shots and take less time to arm, they eat missiles and travel through Zair. Arrows and boomerang working with the rest of Link's camping are more versatile than beam shots and missiles. Samus' Zair is longer but we at least match it at mid-range. Link's standard hit bubbles eat missiles.

Samus wins in recovery, mobility, offstage and OoS for sure and Link being gimped is always a factor :( but I think it's even. Link has a slight advantage in mid and close combat with better reach as well as KO power, Link can almost match her long range camping and platform camp better. With the exception of fully charged shots Link has better punishes and neither character is exactly fast. Samus is the one character Link can do well being aggressive vs, well sort of TL too if spaced right.
Only Samus' tipper Zair will stop bombs. Link's camping works better with platforms because all projectiles fall with gravity, bombs can be thrown up/down or dropped, Link falls fast, have many landing canceling aerials and Link's attacks can eat uncharged beam shots and missiles. Samus is a big target too.
Most flat stages don't exceed Link's camping range but he will have to camp hard and Samus' Zair has the advantage at long rang.
At Link's preferred spacing his sword solidly wins with reach and eats projectiles. We have a good Utilt to counter SH Dair from the ground.
http://imageshack.us/a/img339/4386/uptilt.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img27/7590/uptilt3.jpg
In range Link's Zair is as good as Samus' with 2 hits for 4 and 6% and IIRC it starts the same time (? frame 10). Link isn't a powerhouse like Ike but he does have good power and many KOing options which also eat weak projectiles.
a few hitbubbles:
jab 1 http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7042/jab1.jpg
Fair 1 http://imageshack.us/a/img156/7168/fair1.jpg
Link can survive to crazy %s; I'll live past 230% vs Snake frequently. With Link's weight, falling speed and momentum canceling he can survive off the top later than Samus.

Which brings up side interceptions and gimps. Link does suck here but he can survive with good reads. Link players say Link's recovery is 5% recovery and 95% Good DI/momentum canceling/projectiles/mix ups/being smart. Link is not free offstage like people, usually high tiers assume.

Link also has a good close to the stage intercepting game and can build a good deal of damage if not KO Samus as she's recovering.

Samus lives a looong time and has mobility on her side. Link does have tools to counter her running and her weight. Link can anti-plank too. IMO it's even. A bad read from a side launch or gimps kills Link at low %s. Both characters can battle to hold their preferred spacing/situations and it goes back and forth.

Neither character is common being low tiers and neither is the MU.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I think this is a stage dependent MU, but still even non the less.

My main Samus experience is Sago, otherwise not much.

If I recall Xyro was extremely adamant this was in Samus's favor, I'm gonna reread Samus boards later about that.
 

LordXav1er

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I never played any Samus mains offline. From my experience and observations. Samus has a very good offstage game. Missles to stun opponents. Zair to push back further. And the great spike that can follow up from just about anything. The spikes will normally be the kill on link.
As for on stage Link is much better at controlling the floor. His bombs shut down almost everything Samus has. He is overall faster with spamming projectiles. Samus has more reach. None of her onstage moves will be killing Link anytime soon. Where as Link can kill decently from the stage.

:phone:
 

Red Arremer

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I have literally no idea about Link, but I wouldn't go as far and say that bombs "shut down almost everything Samus has", that's a bit... strongly worded.
 

Rizen

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I checked and tested some things.

I have literally no idea about Link, but I wouldn't go as far and say that bombs "shut down almost everything Samus has", that's a bit... strongly worded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_-O-7jv47c
Bombs will:
Lose to Samus' tipper Zair and item catch moves provided the fuse doesn't burn down and explode.
Bounce off shields.

Cancel with Charged beam shots and Super missiles.

Everything else they'll push through and beat.
_________________________________________________
Samus' Dtilt has the same range as Link's jab 1. For attack reach Link and Samus are close and reach in different ways. For Link's preferred spacing and angles of attacks he will beat Samus' reach.
________________________________________________
Frame data is a similar story. Link has faster spam and mostly faster attacks with some exceptions.
Samus' Zair is 1 frame faster to start than Link's but her grab is slower.
______________________
So it's largely a 'who can support preferred spacing' battle.

The MU's not common. The last Samus vs Link discussion on the Samus boards was from 2010. Link's metagame has developed to be much more resourceful in 2013.
 

LordXav1er

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Well I didn't say "bombs shut down everything." Forgive me for being strong worded sometimes. I am super blunt and to the point even in person.

I'm still waiting to hear from the Samus'. As stated above the MU is extremely unpopular. But overtime Links have gotten better and this MU doesn't seem to be in anyone's favor. Its a pretty solid spam war.

:phone:
 

Red Arremer

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Well I didn't say "bombs shut down everything."
Yeah, you said "almost everything", which would mean a +3, if not a +4, since Samus couldn't do ANYTHING AT ALL if Link spams bombs. Which is not true obviously.

Forgive me for being strong worded sometimes. I am super blunt and to the point even in person.
That... has nothing to do with bluntness.
 

Rizen

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This has nothing to do with anything I"d have to say about the match-up, but how does Link beat Samus if she is playing on the ledge?
Link is one of the few characters who can anti plank everyone to some extent. If he combines his 2 possible bombs, boomerang and arrows, all which fall with gravity, he can force characters off the ledge without getting close enough to be hit. Unlike TL, Link's spamming can be SH or jumps or a combination and land quickly so we can clear Samus' Zair ledge hop area in the process. Link's Ftilt reaches below the stage a decent distance at the tip too. With a LOT of work and reads Link can stop Yoshi and MK from planking.

Link can SH rising Dair and guide it offstage and that has 51 strait attack frames and beats most UpBs.

Link has a DTilt spike but it sucks in Brawl and isn't worth trying.:urg:
 

LordXav1er

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Im arguing that its an even match up... not +3 or +4. Link will probably never see those numbers in this game without abnormal rules.

Yeah Link doesn't have to big a problem forcing any character off the edges with bombs, arrows, boomerangs and occasionally a ff bair or well spaced dairs. He just struggles making it back once he is knocked off...

:phone:
 

Xyro77

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does any link have vids/wins vs any notable samus players? cause i have vids of me beating ALSM Deva Legan and others.
 

Rizen

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^^How old are they? Most Link's stopped a long time ago. The MU's extremely uncommon.

I don't have any good vids. I beat our #1 ranked PR player's Samus Feb 19th but he's not a Samus Main. And the vid's not up yet.
For what it's worth, I have wifis vs Pride, Nexis, Diddy204, Hazed (maybe more youtube's search keeps screwattacking up) from the last year and earlier ones. Not much I know :( .
 

Xyro77

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^^How old are they? Most Link's stopped a long time ago. The MU's extremely uncommon.

I don't have any good vids. I beat our #1 ranked PR player's Samus Feb 19th but he's not a Samus Main. And the vid's not up yet.
For what it's worth, I have wifis vs Pride, Nexis, Diddy204, Hazed (maybe more youtube's search keeps screwattacking up) from the last year and earlier ones. Not much I know :( .

LMAO of course they will be old. No good links still MAIN link or play on a regular basis and the same could be said about samus except for me. This discussion HAS to be based off of older stuff because of what you said: "the MU is extremely uncommon." And are we really counting WiFi matches? That doesn't seem fair at all.




Xyro vs Legan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AZ-fDJvxNI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1vdcXsoc_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTorQI42uZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZxrqEznuUo

Xyro vs Deva:

For some reason i cant find these vids anymore. Maybe YT took them down long ago because of the music?

Xyro vs ALSM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFsAX0R3qWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePcsFVNuTwo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajdodAi2fJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCvxQC9yaQc








edit: dont get me wrong, i dont think link sucks and hell the MU may very well be even. its just in my exp vs the best links of all time (during their prime) i beat them all. I have yet to see a legit Link player beat a legit Samus player. Oh i found some KillerJawz (best euro samus 2 years ago) vs Izaw (best euro link, right?) http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=killerjawz vs izaw&oq=killerjawz vs izaw&gs_l=youtube.3...671.5268.0.5514.18.17.0.1.1.0.368.2595.2j12j2j1.17.0...0.0...1ac.1.d7609gmrJgk
 

LordXav1er

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This match up pretty much never happens anymore so if we go by older videos I believe Samus has better wins. It would be different now thk as current Links have learned a bit more of how to play Samus through the videos you have provided. Same could be said of Samus mains. But basically this is an old school match up
 

LordXav1er

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This match up pretty much never happens anymore so if we go by older videos I believe Samus has better wins. It would be different now thk as current Links have learned a bit more of how to play Samus through the videos you have provided. Same could be said of Samus mains. But basically this is an old school match up
 

Rizen

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It's nice talking to other low tiers.
We have 2010 games, wifis and games vs someone who is good but doesn't main Samus, lol. :/

Since I'm arguing even, Mr.R did win all 3 loser's finals games.
From my experience I'd say even. I win more than lose but don't have a lot of experience vs great Samus (Samuses? What's the plural on 'Samus'?)
 

Rizen

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I prefer calling us Samii. It has a Latin ring to it.
Lol. It sounds like what the bounty hunter in MP3 Corruption calls her.

I might have that 19th video up soon.


...If everyone could agree to 'even' for the MU it would make our lives easier :rolleyes:. Any objections, lady? (I always wanted to say that to a Samus main :grin:)
 

Xyro77

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I show one set of a euro link winning and you wanna call it even? Lol come on lol
 

Rizen

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edit: dont get me wrong, i dont think link sucks and hell the MU may very well be even. its just in my exp vs the best links of all time (during their prime) i beat them all. I have yet to see a legit Link player beat a legit Samus player.
Since I'm arguing even, Mr.R did win all 3 loser's finals games.
Mr Rs is most recent iirc as well.
It's as good of evidence as any opposing. *shrug*

The videos are from 2010 and a big part of the 'even' argument is
Link's metagame has developed to be much more resourceful in 2013.
Like why DKs are going for DDD being -3, Jiggz got G&W -3 from -4, why G&W fell to borderline, why Wolf rose... the metagame has developed so characters are better at avoiding being exploited. I really think Link players are not as reckless and more resourceful offstage.
 

Xyro77

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It's as good of evidence as any opposing. *shrug*

The videos are from 2010 and a big part of the 'even' argument is
Just to make sure im reading your posts right, you think that Link should get a 0 instead of a -1 because:

1. I said the matchup COULD be even (though i admitted there was no evidence to support that claim)
2. 3 videos of a non samus main playing a non link main.

Do you literally think that^ warrants an advancement in the MU for link? Dude, the reason why we (samus users) left at at +1 for samus is because the last time GOOD link MAINS were around, they fell to GOOD samus MAINS. Since neither of those exist anymore (except for me, on the samus side) we felt it was only fair to leave it as it is unless proven different. One set of a samus losing to a link is not enough to change the MU ration imo. Since this MU is super mega rarely played, we have to use what little data we have in order to change the MU or keep the MU as is. So that means we gotta use old videos but ONE set of old videos does not determine an ADVANCEMENT in a MU imo.

Well actually, i have an idea.

ALSM enters events the vast majority of the time with mk/diddy these days and only sometimes with Link. I have not entered an event in 7-8 months (since whobo 4). He is coming to my tournament ( the legendary HOBO and WHOBO series) this weekend which is 4 days from now. There is a mid+low tier teams event as well as the normal singles, normal doubles....ect. He will be using Link and i will be entering (for once) and using Samus. If by THIS Sunday i provide Samus vs Link vids, will you consider those? Both of us are up-to-date on the metagame of each of our characters (we still read/research and watch samus/link vids and results), we just are kinda rusty. That way, it is a current video, with current techs/tactics but yet we will be around the same skill level due to our slight inactivity. Sound fair?

Like why DKs are going for DDD being -3, Jiggz got G&W -3 from -4, why G&W fell to borderline, why Wolf rose... the metagame has developed so characters are better at avoiding being exploited. I really think Link players are not as reckless and more resourceful offstage.
GW went to borderline because the BBR let in a huge amount of uneducated players and with uneducated players come uneducated votes. GW is 110% NOT mid tier and NOT even close to the likes of fox/wolf/peach....ect. LOL this has been known since the dawn of brawl. Hell, no midtier events allow GW in them even though the tier list says its ok.

DKs/Jiggs went from -4 to -3 on the DDD/GW (respectively)because -4 dont even really exist in this game unless you are talking about Ganon or something. A -4 MU is like racing a paper airplane against a MIG-25 Foxbat.

Wolf rose because, yet again, the uneducated BBR reacts to a FEW tournaments where wolf does well and treats it as if its going to be a long term thing for him. They did it with Falco after DEHF won apex and they did it again when Nieotono (japanese olimar) decimated a few people at the last apex. They will do it again with ZS because Salem won apex. But In ALL instances, those players who did well ended up falling off or not living up to the standard they set at apex or w/e event. Its proof that what they did was a fluke OR just a very good day for them. We should base MU charts or tier lists off of that crap. If a ZS/Falco/Olimar is consistently destroying and winning huge ass events then YES they should move up or the MU chart should reflect their advancements.....but those characters DONT do it consistently.


This is all besides the point of Link vs Samus MU.
 

Red Arremer

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There's always the possibility of, for now, putting this MU as no change, and reviewing it in the next iteration of the MU chart. No changes are absolute and final. Just for the record.

With that said, I don't think that this MU is comparable to DKvD3, GaWvJigglypuff, etc.
Of course, characters' metagames change, and the metagame itself does. But do you honestly believe that this MU changed significantly enough to warrant a change?
The metagame has changed "so much" recently, that we're using videos from 2010 as base for our discussion. And now you're proposing the MU is even because the metagame "changed"? Are you serious?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'd play Link more if I wasn't a Lucario main first who also finds Link to be his 2nd fav character who he plays in every smash game.

I think I need to add more about the MU but I need to rewatch vids and rethink a bit on this one, it's been a while since I've played a Samus. Last one was Sago a while ago. Or Composer, but Sago would be the better player between the two, no offense Composer :<.
 

Rizen

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Lol @ BBR stuff, yeah. Although I do see Wolf improving.

Anyway, it's partially the metagame but more about Link players unlocking Link's potential. People have said for a long time Link's potential isn't fully realized. IMO he's the hardest character to use properly based on playing Ganon, Zelda, Link, Bowser, PT, G&W, Wolf and MK and learning/dropping Sonic and Lucario. For example Link's spamming is very complicated and the player must constantly improvise with spacing. Button inputs are possibly: (R is attack assuming the opponent is to the left) light Y+ right>down B>B(land)> strong Y>forward B angled down>right>L>R and hold>land buffer C forward>L+down to retreating SH>bomb pull>quickdraw>jump>throw boomerang down and drift backward>airdodge>zair with bomb>land buffer Fsmash with bomb>buffer spotdodge as the bomb explodes :dizzy:. This is simple Link camping lol and Link must adapt to maintain spacing. There's no formula and many Link's aren't optimal with that alone. I'm rambling...

Let me put it this way:
Game I was proud of:
1 year ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QvrPS80bD8
last month
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPYdD_Xl_A
(I know I know, bad opponent :/) Improvements: My DI really improved which helps, recovery timing/spacing, spacing, attack choice, less vulnerability (besides rolls :[ ), spamming, projectile and other attacks work together, Link's overall speed due to better choices/buffering.

I see other Links using his potential more too. You could say it's personal improvement but from my experience playing, critiquing and watching Link, he's really reached a new level of play from people being comfortable with his spacing/options and tapping deeper into his potential. He still sucks though. Links are much harder to gimp now and make better spacing/attack choices.
Simply put Link players are using him better.

Relative to the MU:
vs Samus Link has the tools to make this even. If players were perfect or near I think Link would win.
I know these are wifi and not the best Samus :'( but bare with me for the level of the MU (10-8-12 at least it's recent) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEryzZnUnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAS7L_iuJUQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MDpXA4iCAo

@ Xyro you're the highest level Samus but consider the range of high level play. At an even skill level in high level play I believe Samus and Link are even. You just do really well in the MU, lol.

This is just my personal argument.
 

LordXav1er

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Well Xyro is the best Samus. It would be more accurate if he played better Link then ALSM but its probably closest thing can get for any recent footage or perspective on Link vs Samus.
 

Xyro77

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Lol @ BBR stuff, yeah. Although I do see Wolf improving.

Anyway, it's partially the metagame but more about Link players unlocking Link's potential. People have said for a long time Link's potential isn't fully realized. IMO he's the hardest character to use properly based on playing Ganon, Zelda, Link, Bowser, PT, G&W, Wolf and MK and learning/dropping Sonic and Lucario. For example Link's spamming is very complicated and the player must constantly improvise with spacing. Button inputs are possibly: (R is attack assuming the opponent is to the left) light Y+ right>down B>B(land)> strong Y>forward B angled down>right>L>R and hold>land buffer C forward>L+down to retreating SH>bomb pull>quickdraw>jump>throw boomerang down and drift backward>airdodge>zair with bomb>land buffer Fsmash with bomb>buffer spotdodge as the bomb explodes :dizzy:. This is simple Link camping lol and Link must adapt to maintain spacing. There's no formula and many Link's aren't optimal with that alone. I'm rambling...

Let me put it this way:
Game I was proud of:
1 year ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QvrPS80bD8
last month
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iPYdD_Xl_A
(I know I know, bad opponent :/) Improvements: My DI really improved which helps, recovery timing/spacing, spacing, attack choice, less vulnerability (besides rolls :[ ), spamming, projectile and other attacks work together, Link's overall speed due to better choices/buffering.

I see other Links using his potential more too. You could say it's personal improvement but from my experience playing, critiquing and watching Link, he's really reached a new level of play from people being comfortable with his spacing/options and tapping deeper into his potential. He still sucks though. Links are much harder to gimp now and make better spacing/attack choices.
Simply put Link players are using him better.

Relative to the MU:
vs Samus Link has the tools to make this even. If players were perfect or near I think Link would win.
I know these are wifi and not the best Samus :'( but bare with me for the level of the MU (10-8-12 at least it's recent) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdEryzZnUnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAS7L_iuJUQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MDpXA4iCAo

@ Xyro you're the highest level Samus but consider the range of high level play. At an even skill level in high level play I believe Samus and Link are even. You just do really well in the MU, lol.

This is just my personal argument.
WiFi cannot be counted/considerd in a MU discussion that revolves around OFFLINE play. On top of that, Pride is a nobody so even if wifi was counted, Pride cannot.

Knowing this^

Where are videos of a Link main and his "new potential" or "unlocked potential" beating a Samus main? His potential could very well have exploded in the past 2-3 years (very unlikely due to the continued dwindling of the Link user base) but none of that matters because this is a Samus vs Link discussion. So unless you have some vids or maybe some results then there really is no basis for link doing better at a MU.

Remember, we samus players are not asking to make the ratio MORE in Samus favor. We are simply wanting to keep it the same because we realize there is no current/updated evidence to increase or decrease the ratio. If at some point i get to meet Prof X or you or whoever yalls best link players are and i WIN(or LOSE) i will change/use that data as evidence.


Also, ALSM posted yesterday on FB that in his opinion Samus vs Link is indeed +1 in Samus favor. Here is the link (no pun intended) and quote below

"

Sergio Antonio DelgadilloSamus vs. Link +1 Samus' favor, ZSS vs. Link +2 ZSS' favor. Welp, that settles it. Tell Rizen I said that."
http://www.facebook.com/sergio.a.de...99642?comment_id=6439651&notif_t=feed_comment





Well Xyro is the best Samus. It would be more accurate if he played better Link then ALSM but its probably closest thing can get for any recent footage or perspective on Link vs Samus.

Yeah you are right. i totally agree that ALSM may not be the zenith of Link practice but its all i have near me that is OFFLINE and RECENT. Doesn't matter though because he just told me yesterday on FB that all carpools going to my event are full so he probably cant go. If he somehow DOES go, ill have them recorded asap.
 

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Lol Professor X. Ahhh that is unfortunate would of been fun to watch regardless. There are other good Links out there but yeah very rare that you will play any of them now besides ASLM. You did play our best or at least one of them in the past.
 

LordXav1er

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There is very little evidence of this MU in general. Best evidence we got is MR R beating QuikSilver. Other than that we can only explain why we believe it is actually even now.
 

Xyro77

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That's the issue I have though.

You wanna discuss Mr R's (who mains Marth) Link and Quiksilver's (who mains ZS) Samus. That's like me beating M2K's Ike with my Zelda and saying Zelda vs Ike is ABC or XYZ on the MU chart. Any top player can pick up a character and auto do well because they understand how the game works at a high level but they do not know the intricacies and nuances that a person who MAINS character 123.

That's why I feel Mr R vs Quik shouldn't carry too much weight.
 

LordXav1er

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Mr R actually has always had a legit Link since day one. He has beat Izaw in Link dittos and has always performed the best in EU as Link. He is more like Jash when it comes to 2nding Link. Won't use much atreat a regular event.
 
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