Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Elessar]

You'll do well here.

Not really, still too mild.

I'm not even sorry.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Sorry, I'm the "sit quietly in a room for seven years before he gets his triforce of courage" kind of Link.

Well I am pretty sure you will only get a sword and some tights for doing that.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Amazon is poison right now, guys. Stay faaaarrrr away

 

[Elessar]

Amazon is poison right now, guys. Stay faaaarrrr away

Why? I mean, why right now?

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Why? I mean, why right now?

"Amazon prime day"
An absolute **** storm of mostly awesome deals....

 

[Elessar]

"Amazon prime day"
An absolute **** storm of mostly awesome deals....

So, stay away so we don't go bankrupt buying needless crap?

 

[Rizen]

What characters would you guys say are the hardest to play to their full potential? I'm thinking and probably others but idk. /just curios

 

[ama99]

What characters would you guys say are the hardest to play to their full potential? I'm thinking and probably others but idk. /just curios

Meta Knight, Zelda.

 

[Rizen]

@ FSK is streaming Link ATs: http://www.twitch.tv/pop_FSK

 

[Naroghin]

@ FSK is streaming Link ATs: http://www.twitch.tv/pop_FSK

Nice. I'm there. Let's see how long my internet can hold out.

 

[Linkmario00]

My top 10 is:

10)Marth
In this game you need absolutely perfect spacing with him and he doesn't have any followup from throws so he actually has to bait, punish and condition for every single move he has.

9) Peach
Very technical char, her float game is difficult to execute but have very interesting tech such as float cancel FF. She also has a very good but hard combo game.

8) Greninja
A very fast character that requires top level mindgames and has to follow up every time he gets in (he's not like "one hit and run") and he has to capitalise on opponent's errors. All of this without being the lagless and unpunishable character that Sheik is.

7) Link
Lot of techs, has to work around his projectiles, mindgames with them, spaces around his moves, has hard times to actually punish with a grab but gets a pretty nice reward out of it now.

6) Robin
His/her limited book/Levin sword uses are hard to deal with. You have to actually use a lot of strategy and needs to read a lot for putting yourself in a good position. B reverse and Wavebouncing are fundamental. Also his books can kill when throwed away so you can't waste them.

5) Megaman
See Pacman but to a lesser extent IMO

4) Duck Hunt
He has definitely the most difficult projectile game in the whole game. He has to think about his projectiles after firing them for everything, from zoning to cover his recovery. Same thing of Marth in the sense that he doesn't have a lot of throw follow ups and lack a kill throw.

3) Ryu
Obvious reasons

2) Pacman
He is the most efficient zoner in the game but only if mastered and that will take a lot. Smart trampolines, fruit charge and hydrant are all his gameplay. You have to scary the opponent with your fruits and force them to approach in a certain way with trampoline and hydrant. He can do an endless amount of tricks like Z dropping for instant hydrant launch. Fair hydrant launch, pposition himself between trampoline and hydrant,etc...
He just needs a superb amount of creativity, and that would make him the hardest character in the game if it wasn't for...

1) Shulk
Here we are. The char that probably has the most in depth gameplay of the game. First of all, he's even more than Marth the king of spacing. Second of all, you always have to know what art pull off in every situation. Each art have different usages and some have also a tons of different setups, combo and locks that you have to remember. Also you have to deal with art cool down. MALLC and MADC are great but hard to execute. Basically you have to remember six playstyle and know when and how switch between them.

 

[link7]

@ FSK is streaming Link ATs: http://www.twitch.tv/pop_FSK

Fraudulent stream. He's playing as Gay.

 

[Rizen]

Fraudulent stream. He's playing as Gay.

He started as Link when I was watching :/

 

[Lawz.]

He started as Link when I was watching :/

What kind of sick trap are you luring these poor souls to?

 

[FSK]

I was just showing of some Gay bomb technology by request

Anyway I learned 4 things I think during the stream. Not sure how well known the stuff is:

1. You can soft-throw a bomb in the direction you are running. You just do a RAR input (turn around, jump, c-stick forward direction) Pretty cool I must say so myself. You can also use this to soft-throw while running, basically a jump cancelled soft-throw.

2. You can airdodge zair and only recieve the zair landing lag. However you have to basically input the airdodge and the attack button at the same time so you don't see the airdodge. It's useless, but it's possible.

3. If you drop a bomb and pick it up with a full hop fair, you can drop the bomb again right before landing.

4. You can cancel airdodge landing lag with a bombthrow, if you start the airdodge immediately from leaving the ground. It's same as cancelling the landing lag with a special move, but instead you just throw a bomb in any direction. Could be cool for jump+airdodge behind the opponent, throw bomb in their back then full hop uair. This true combos at KO percents.

Also thanks to the guys that dropped by the stream, I wish I had more entertaining stuff to do than lab and FG. Any suggestions on how to make things more exciting would be welcomed.

 

[smokebomb12]

Does anyone have any tips 4 getting out of marios utilt combo?

 

[KenMeister]

Does anyone have any tips 4 getting out of marios utilt combo?

Try DIing up and jumping. It's admittingly pretty rough for Link, especially since Mario can read the jump and uair. Also, I think link can di down and shield. It'd make a decent mixup, but don't rely on it since links OoS options can reacted to.

 

[smokebomb12]

Try DIing up and jumping. It's admittingly pretty rough for Link, especially since Mario can read the jump and uair. Also, I think link can di down and shield. It'd make a decent mixup, but don't rely on it since links OoS options can reacted to.

One of my sparring buddies won't stop and I kinda had enough of it.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

I was just showing of some Gay bomb technology by request

Anyway I learned 4 things I think during the stream. Not sure how well known the stuff is:

1. You can soft-throw a bomb in the direction you are running. You just do a RAR input (turn around, jump, c-stick forward direction) Pretty cool I must say so myself. You can also use this to soft-throw while running, basically a jump cancelled soft-throw.

2. You can airdodge zair and only recieve the zair landing lag. However you have to basically input the airdodge and the attack button at the same time so you don't see the airdodge. It's useless, but it's possible.

3. If you drop a bomb and pick it up with a full hop fair, you can drop the bomb again right before landing.

4. You can cancel airdodge landing lag with a bombthrow, if you start the airdodge immediately from leaving the ground. It's same as cancelling the landing lag with a special move, but instead you just throw a bomb in any direction. Could be cool for jump+airdodge behind the opponent, throw bomb in their back then full hop uair. This true combos at KO percents.

Also thanks to the guys that dropped by the stream, I wish I had more entertaining stuff to do than lab and FG. Any suggestions on how to make things more exciting would be welcomed.

I think the first one is in the AT thread. Some of this stuff though might be pretty interesting. Well you could always request friendlies or actual skrims with known people. Having other people in the room during a smash stream always helps a lot.

 

[KenMeister]

One of my sparring buddies won't stop and I kinda had enough of it.

I dunno man. Personally I believe Mario is a terrible MU for Link for similar reasons Fox is. You might want a secondary to deal with him.

 

[smokebomb12]

Can I PLEASE get a match from one of you guys? You guys really sound interesting.

I dunno man. Personally I believe Mario is a terrible MU for Link for similar reasons Fox is. You might want a secondary to deal with him.

I don't have a prob with Mario. its just that with hat combo he can catch up in damage fairly easily.

 

[ama99]

I was just showing of some Gay bomb technology by request

I put a Kappa face after that lol.

 

[FSK]

I think the first one is in the AT thread. Some of this stuff though might be pretty interesting. Well you could always request friendlies or actual skrims with known people. Having other people in the room during a smash stream always helps a lot.

Yupp you are right it is, I hadn't seen it. But I expected it to be written somewhere hence I used the term 'I learned'.

I put a Kappa face after that lol.

You shut your ***** mouth, this is all on you!

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Yupp you are right it is, I hadn't seen it. But I expected it to be written somewhere hence I used the term 'I learned'.



You shut your ***** mouth, this is all on you!

Beaten in grammar. I took the "I learned" essentially as "I discovered" do to a ready description on how to perform said technique that you learned. My mistake.

 

[smokebomb12]

Anyone want to play?

 

[Linkmario00]

Guys, I'm having an hard time I'm two moments of a match:
1) The start. I never know what move should I use to start a match. That really gives me an hard time in the first part of the game. I really can't decide the first two moves to start with (a projectile, walking at him with the HS, just pull off a bomb and see what he does). This isn't much of a problem with my other mains (For Shulk I know I simply have to use an art for example) so I don't know how to deal with it.
2) When you kill someone and he returns to the stage, the invincibility give me some hard time. Many times I get killed by a smash attack during their invincibility because I can't retreat efficiently. Should I go to the ledge? Or just run around?

 

[Dumbfire]

1. You can soft-throw a bomb in the direction you are running. You just do a RAR input (turn around, jump, c-stick forward direction) Pretty cool I must say so myself. You can also use this to soft-throw while running, basically a jump cancelled soft throw.

lol foxy has been trying to get people to do this since like the start of soft bomb throws, do it its great

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

lol foxy has been trying to get people to do this since like the start of soft bomb throws, do it its great

And here I was thinking that all this banging my head against the wall was for nothing.

 

[Nimious]

Does anyone have any tips 4 getting out of marios utilt combo?

You have several options (none of which are guaranteed).

1. DI away, while doing your DI tap air dodge in sequence to the hits and you may air dodge out onto the ground and with landing lag. To mitigate this if you noticed your air dodge worked you Zair so you have some sort of hitbox to prevent the re-grab.
2. DI Up and towards Mario as his hit box I believe is larger away from him however do note if you are already near the edge on the other side then you should DI away. Also tap air dodge per each hit.
3. Hold Up and DI to the side you're closest to getting out of and try and jump out following each hit but this doesn't always work and your jump may just get eaten anyways to prevent this option.

Notes:

• I'm not sure if tapping DI works better or not.
• I've never gotten DI down into shield to work.

This is a BS match-up if you're up against a good Mario. Roughly 70% is as high as it gets if everything works out for him. This is assuming after the Up-tilts he gets the triple Up-airs and then manages to grab you again into more Up-airs.

Guys, I'm having an hard time I'm two moments of a match:
1) The start. I never know what move should I use to start a match. That really gives me an hard time in the first part of the game. I really can't decide the first two moves to start with (a projectile, walking at him with the HS, just pull off a bomb and see what he does). This isn't much of a problem with my other mains (For Shulk I know I simply have to use an art for example) so I don't know how to deal with it.
2) When you kill someone and he returns to the stage, the invincibility give me some hard time. Many times I get killed by a smash attack during their invincibility because I can't retreat efficiently. Should I go to the ledge? Or just run around?

1. Pull bomb (jump or not depending on match-up). This is always the right answer. Don't move towards your opponent, just about in no match-up does it make sense for you to approach. The HS walk is only good against say Fox but if you're playing a Fox (assuming he's good) you should switch to your secondary (he can jab lock you and it's inescapable come 40%). Firing a projectile is pointless lest you're on For Glory. Every decent player will just block it and you've given up precious space for minimal shield damage.
2. Go to the corner of the stage and toss a bomb up. Jump and pull another bomb and grab the ledge, The timing you'll figure out but the point is by the time your ledge invincibility is about to wear off the bomb hits the ground (you'll know your timing is off if the bomb hurt you). Your opponent thus cannot be at the ledge and even if he is he either shielded or got hit in which case you can jump above the stage and throw the bomb down on him, SH jump onto the stage and toss the bomb, roll on stage, or standard get up. Careful of the bomb in your hand though as its timer is just over a second of the bomb you tossed up. This bomb is also your insurance, say you SH on stage and your opponent dash attacks you, you've burned your jump and now only have your Up-B. In this case you Up-B and let the bomb blow you up so you get higher up and stand a better chance of recovery. If you rolled onto stage and your opponent grabbed you, just hope it blows up to interrupt the grab.

lol what? Don't run around. Link is too slow for that. Only chance you have is if you manage to roll into him and get center stage then bombslide to the other side. That's not recommended since it's not nearly as safe as what I mentioned above.

 

[smokebomb12]

Guys, I'm having an hard time I'm two moments of a match:
1) The start. I never know what move should I use to start a match. That really gives me an hard time in the first part of the game. I really can't decide the first two moves to start with (a projectile, walking at him with the HS, just pull off a bomb and see what he does). This isn't much of a problem with my other mains (For Shulk I know I simply have to use an art for example) so I don't know how to deal with it.
2) When you kill someone and he returns to the stage, the invincibility give me some hard time. Many times I get killed by a smash attack during their invincibility because I can't retreat efficiently. Should I go to the ledge? Or just run around?

I got you. give me some time though.

 

[Catana]

1. Pull bomb (jump or not depending on match-up). This is always the right answer.

No its not. Chars with fast approaches like ZSS or CF can easily get in or maybe even punish you for it, whether you jump or not. Against chars like that its usually better to throw your rang or jab. Pull bombs against slower characters on which it will be a guaranteed positive outcome for you or simply if you know it will work.

Don't move towards your opponent, just about in no match-up does it make sense for you to approach.

Except against chars that outcamp us like Yoshi or R.O.B., who will force you to get close to them.

 

[smokebomb12]

You have several options (none of which are guaranteed).

1. DI away, while doing your DI tap air dodge in sequence to the hits and you may air dodge out onto the ground and with landing lag. To mitigate this if you noticed your air dodge worked you Zair so you have some sort of hitbox to prevent the re-grab.
2. DI Up and towards Mario as his hit box I believe is larger away from him however do note if you are already near the edge on the other side then you should DI away. Also tap air dodge per each hit.
3. Hold Up and DI to the side you're closest to getting out of and try and jump out following each hit but this doesn't always work and your jump may just get eaten anyways to prevent this option.

Notes:

• I'm not sure if tapping DI works better or not.
• I've never gotten DI down into shield to work.

This is a BS match-up if you're up against a good Mario. Roughly 70% is as high as it gets if everything works out for him. This is assuming after the Up-tilts he gets the triple Up-airs and then manages to grab you again into more Up-airs.



1. Pull bomb (jump or not depending on match-up). This is always the right answer. Don't move towards your opponent, just about in no match-up does it make sense for you to approach. The HS walk is only good against say Fox but if you're playing a Fox (assuming he's good) you should switch to your secondary (he can jab lock you and it's inescapable come 40%). Firing a projectile is pointless lest you're on For Glory. Every decent player will just block it and you've given up precious space for minimal shield damage.
2. Go to the corner of the stage and toss a bomb up. Jump and pull another bomb and grab the ledge, The timing you'll figure out but the point is by the time your ledge invincibility is about to wear off the bomb hits the ground (you'll know your timing is off if the bomb hurt you). Your opponent thus cannot be at the ledge and even if he is he either shielded or got hit in which case you can jump above the stage and throw the bomb down on him, SH jump onto the stage and toss the bomb, roll on stage, or standard get up. Careful of the bomb in your hand though as its timer is just over a second of the bomb you tossed up. This bomb is also your insurance, say you SH on stage and your opponent dash attacks you, you've burned your jump and now only have your Up-B. In this case you Up-B and let the bomb blow you up so you get higher up and stand a better chance of recovery. If you rolled onto stage and your opponent grabbed you, just hope it blows up to interrupt the grab.

lol what? Don't run around. Link is too slow for that. Only chance you have is if you manage to roll into him and get center stage then bombslide to the other side. That's not recommended since it's not nearly as safe as what I mentioned above.

Thanks bro. I look forward to returning the favor.

 

[Nimious]

No its not. Chars with fast approaches like ZSS or CF can easily get in or maybe even punish you for it, whether you jump or not. Against chars like that its usually better to throw your rang or jab. Pull bombs against slower characters on which it will be a guaranteed positive outcome for you or simply if you know it will work.

Except against chars that outcamp us like Yoshi or R.O.B., who will force you to get close to them.

If your opponent is going to run straight at you as soon as the match starts, never shielding on the way for potential projectiles or rolling at the potential grab that you may throw out then they've given you zero respect or they've already played you before. It's not likely they're going to give you zero respect and if they've played you before then there may be better options.

However just the same, say you throw your boomerang, they'll just hop over it,... Even if they shield it whatever time and space you just bought would not have been worth not throwing the boomerang in the first place. So then the best thing to do is to start your jab but why? I don't think anyone would literally run into it, the most likely scenario is they stop just outside of your grab range and I'm not sure how this would help you.

For these characters you can full jump away from the stage toss boomerang, draw bomb, and tether the ledge in the same jump. You could also try moving away pivot F-tilt and pivot grab. However if you did a full jump bomb pull what could they do? If they jump, you jump and you have the bomb to cover your landing. In any case those are the options I would consider if someone just ran in with zero respect.

I meant in most match-ups not approaching is ideal but wait a Yoshi out camping a Link? That's the first I've even heard of that. The further the Yoshi is the less likely the egg will hit so you really don't have to approach and just wait for an opening. I'm honestly not sure how the camping will happen given once you perfect shield an egg you can bombslide into them.

Rob is one of the few match-ups that you will approach in but I would still start this one with a jump into a bomb pull.

 

[Rizen]

Adding to the bomb pulling topic, you don't want to stand in place. Bomb pulls are better spaced from moving SH/jumps.

 

[Nimious]

Adding to the bomb pulling topic, you don't want to stand in place. Bomb pulls are better spaced from moving SH/jumps.

Definitely. Depending on the match-up you should full jump or short hop to minimize vulnerability while pulling the projectile. For example, going back to Rob I would use more full jumps when bomb pulling as short hop bomb pulls are free laser hits. This really goes for all projectiles as well unless you're positive your bomb or boomerang will land so you can capitalize on the true combo after.

 

[Catana]

If your opponent is going to run straight at you as soon as the match starts, never shielding on the way for potential projectiles or rolling at the potential grab that you may throw out then they've given you zero respect or they've already played you before. It's not likely they're going to give you zero respect and if they've played you before then there may be better options.

However just the same, say you throw your boomerang, they'll just hop over it,... Even if they shield it whatever time and space you just bought would not have been worth not throwing the boomerang in the first place. So then the best thing to do is to start your jab but why? I don't think anyone would literally run into it, the most likely scenario is they stop just outside of your grab range and I'm not sure how this would help you.

Yes it is likely for them to disrespect you to go link against chars like that, and of course they're going to shield as you can easily react to it; but the point is its safer than a bomb pull and gives you a moment to breathe and think which is very important in these match-ups.

For these characters you can full jump away from the stage toss boomerang, draw bomb, and tether the ledge in the same jump. You could also try moving away pivot F-tilt and pivot grab. However if you did a full jump bomb pull what could they do? If they jump, you jump and you have the bomb to cover your landing. In any case those are the options I would consider if someone just ran in with zero respect.

You want to escape to the ledge? HF getting edgeguarded/gimped. They can also easily reach your jump with their uair; dont underestimate their speed.

Rob is one of the few match-ups that you will approach in but I would still start this one with a jump into a bomb pull.

Thats possible, but you will also allow him to charge up his gyro which is arguably one of the best projectiles in the game.

 

[smokebomb12]

@ Linkmario00 Did you read my tips I sent you?

@ Nimious @ Rizen @ Catana
Thanks 4 the tips. I will do each one of you a reasonable solid.

 

[DUKEL]

1. Pull bomb (jump or not depending on match-up). This is always the right answer. Don't move towards your opponent, just about in no match-up does it make sense for you to approach.

Saying that bomb pulling is the optimal way to start off every match shows how little you've played against characters with charge shots or good dash grabs, which brings into question the advice you're giving as a whole, and whether or not you even play competitive smash offline.

Against characters with any sort of chargeable projectiles, we should never start with a bomb pull in your first set. SH arrows are great for forcing your opponent to shield on any stage other than battlefield (or if they're not paying close enough attention you might even reset the charge), which gives you stage control, and it might either force your opponent to approach (which Link loves), or give you an opening to approach all depending on how your opponent reacts. Maybe after the first game you can then bomb pull at the start due to mild conditioning, but if you guess wrong, your opponent is now charging a powerful projectile and you have to SH again to get an arrow over to stop it if it isn't mostly charged already.

Characters with good dash grabs (see: captain falcon) if they see you SH bomb pull, or just pull a bomb in general, will utilize their dash grab to start off the match. If they see you pull a bomb, that's free lag for them, and a free 20%-30% combo before you even have a chance to do anything. You're really underestimating how quick some characters are.

 

[smokebomb12]

Can we not argue and focus on Linkmario00.

 

[Dumbfire]

Is anyone else just really bored to death by these lengthy wall-of-text-cluttered theorycrafting discussions