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Link in the NEW tier list(updated to TL#4)

Rizen

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Link is a solid character with a bad recovery. Even if his recovery was, say, identical to Toon Link's, though, he would still probably wouldn't be higher than 25 or so though, because of his vulnerability to chain grabs, and his moves are pretty sluggish (even his jab takes 6 frames, which, while fast, isn't as fast as most characters' fastest options).
This basically says it. Link also has bad left/right air movement and out of shield. Almost every move he has is highly situational and Link needs advanced set ups like short hop canceling and bombs. If Link had C Falcon's mobility, jumps, movement speed and recovery distance he'd be a great character.

Hypothetically, if Falcon had Link's sideB boomerang he'd be much better. The 2 characters are strong in what the other lacks:ohwell:.

Samus. What a quirk.

Alright. So Samus has a few things going for her. Her projectiles are very versatile. Although she has three, you could basically count them as five and a recovery move considering their different options (fast missile/guided missile, charged blue/regular blue, bomb jump/bomb drop). So that's her projectile game.

Then she has the chain. The Z-Air has the ability to stun- this makes for a lot of annoying follow-ups that are extremely hard/impossible to escape. It also tethers- just like ours.

She floats. She doesn't fast fall. If Samus can get Link offstage, it's going to be a mess. She can D-Air from wherever she wants to offstage and not worry about fastfalling or dying from its lag. Not to mention all of her other ledge-guards. She has the N-Air, just like us. She has the B-Air. She can even gimp with bombs.

Recovery. Enough said?
Samus deserves higher than Link. Link does beat her onstage with range canceling standard attacks (jab/nair etc cancels super missiles), better reach, priority, power, and the only 2 hit Zair. Link has a good anti-projectile game paired with a great one of his own. Samus' spam is weaker at medium/close range. Her recovery and air game with Zair and every aerial landing canceling are superior and Link's not hard to hit offstage so Samus wins slightly.
 

Huggles828

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Haha, true, plus Samus does have one of the best moves in the game: transform into the high tier Zamus. I dunno; I just absolutely hate Samus. I can't use her for the life of me. I like to be able to kill people before 250%, and I just can't do that when I'm Samus, because she's weak, plus I suck as her.
 

PK-ow!

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I love how people forget how amazing Link's MC (momentum cancel) is. Along with proper DI and momentum canceling, Link can live to crazy percents. Sure that's up to the player to be able to have these skills, but really. All he has to do is DI properly, and Bair. He's also a heavy character. At top play, Links can live to high percents unless the obvious happens...getting gimped, but that's been covered already.
I'm going to stress this, because Links do need to Step it Up. DI can mean so much to Link.

Link is also beastly at racking up damage and killing. He has plenty of kill moves (his dair is just broken) and Falcon HAS TO RELY ON GIMPS/EDGEGUARDS FOR KILLS. Really, what's he going to kill with? Knee is terribad (i know they happen, but let's be realistic. It's not as guaranteed as say Link's JabJab>Dsmash or just Dsmash in general) Falcon Punch is a joke, and his best kill moves are Fsmash and Dsmash, which both have hefty start up and ending lag.
No, Link is not beastly at damage racking.

Boomerang and Bomb can form a wall for about three moves; then the opponent will get in, or force you to, well, do something else (most likely reposition, which means not attacking, which means losing DPS).

To state it generally, he has situations from which he cannot attack. Plenty of them. Because of his lacking CQC game.

And it is lacking, it's lacking so hard I think you didn't catch what CQC is supposed to mean. Link has a good dodge, but that's all he has. He doesn't have a jab, he's got a tether (read: frame 11 or slower) grab, his dash nor run speed will ever save his ***, and he hasn't got good shield push on the options that can come out in time.

When the opponent gets in, Link has screwed up, and has to get out; that's all he can do. It's all he can do because the opponent gets free pressure when they're inside Link's sword. The opponent suddenly has all kinds of crap to mixup with their grab because of what's safe on Link's shield.


In ideal conditions, the tether makes the shield game different because range is not a factor, but time is; changing what the opponent has to do. But when these conditions are **** on (as your opponent is wont to do), it takes away the fundamental of the shield grab. And that's bad.

Link wants to play by redefining range to work relative to his sword, and taking actual CQC entirely out of play. His trouble is that unlike Marth, he doesn't have tons of vertically massive hitboxes, pretty much losing to the aerial component of this game in the transfer of his home 2D mechanics to an orthogonal rewrite of it (2D). As far as I'm concerned, Link's air physics do not do him any favours. He basically trades juggle vulnerability for early deaths to everything else - and being always one beat, at best, behind the opponent's movement, even if caused by your own knockback.


... wait

before I get too off-point (with Link's tier place in general), let me close that up.

Link is bad at damage-racking. If he were ever good at damage racking, that is because, and that's precisely when, you've got a successful Link on your hands. But the guts of the claim is that if the opponent sees through Link, and realizes what he is crap at, he won't let Link use all those moves, will move right through them, and Link suddenly isn't even attacking anymore. At least, he's not attacking and doing his lifespan a good turn.



Link's projectile game and onstage game alone make him better then Falcon...
Falcon can only rarely be caught out of position. Except for the moves which he *cannot* beat (because Sakurai didn't think it important to give every character at least one answer to super damaging safe moves :psycho: ...), Falcon's always got SH NAir (MOVING Nair), jab, *dash away*, and, if in the air, UAir. With a little bit more stability, he's got grab and DA.


Link goes all in with wanting things to work for his playstyle just right, so far that his needs often can't be met, and he falls apart - while he picks up barely any power in exchange for it (i.e. no one gave him MK's Dsmash). Falcon is only keeping the opponent slightly off-balance the whole time, and one wrong guess is still major punishment, but it's always there for the player. It always works.


Between two crap characters that are never giving their own strengths to the player, what matters more is at least letting the player take on his opponent's thinking - taking advantage if you DO, by your pro-star powers of psychic insight, see the next choice coming. For both characters not being able to force their own playstyle into the MU for long (garbz tier), there's too much lose-lose for Link, and slightly less lose-lose for Falcon.


*~*~*~

I prefer the idea of mastering Link to Falcon because I like the idea of upkeeping those ideal conditions, more than my recognition that the difficulty of it is greater than settling for Falcon's (difficulties).
 

Rizen

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I'm going to stress this, because Links do need to Step it Up. [1] DI can mean so much to Link.



Link has a good dodge, but that's all he has. [2] He doesn't have a jab, he's got a tether (read: frame 11 or slower) grab, his dash nor run speed will ever save his ***, and he hasn't got good shield push on the options that can come out in time.

His trouble is that unlike Marth, he doesn't have tons of vertically massive hitboxes[3], pretty much losing to the aerial component of this game in the transfer of his home 2D mechanics to an orthogonal rewrite of it (2D). As far as I'm concerned, Link's air physics do not do him any favours.

[4]Link is bad at damage-racking. If he were ever good at damage racking, that is because, and that's precisely when, you've got a successful Link on your hands. But the guts of the claim is that if the opponent sees through Link, and realizes what he is crap at, he won't let Link use all those moves, will move right through them, and Link suddenly isn't even attacking anymore. At least, he's not attacking and doing his lifespan a good turn.
[1] It's stressed. Unfortunately DI is practically Link's only recovery. A Link must be great at momentum canceling and DI to live so it's basically just assumed to be known.
[2] Link has great jabs, they have reach and are easy to cancel.
[3] Zair is awesome. Many of Link's aerial hitboxes last longer than other character's and have more area through movement. Dair attacks for 51 strait frames. The problem is they're laggy unless landing canceled and Link can't chain many air attacks together from his bad jumps, fast fall speed and lag. The moves are situational, if the opponent predicts and avoids an attack they can punish Link's air vulnerability and juggle him or grab his landing.
[4] Link can rack up damage but he has no room for error. If the opponent is forced to approach Link's in a better position. Everything is situational and Link is severely punishable by shield grabs or any time he's off stage.
 

Huggles828

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DI IS Link's recovery. I don't think anyone's really denying this. If Link doesn't DI/MC or DI's poorly, he's lucky to make it to 80%; his recovery (meaning only his double jump and B up) is that bad. With perfect DI and MC and a little prediction of your opponent plus some wise usage of projectiles offstage, Link can live almost as long as Snake.

Link's jabs are incredibly useful, but they are very slow to be his fastest move. They're great, but when you simply HAVE to fit that disrupting attack in that 4 or 5 frame window to regain momentum, and your jab takes 7 frames to start up...

One thing I will disagree with somewhat is Link's movement speed on the ground. His run sucks, yes, but his walk is among the fastest in the game (#5 or so), and it LOOKS like he's running to someone who doesn't play Link (he "sprints"). That means you can walk away and play mind games with a reverse fsmash or reverse dsmash or whatever, especially in combination with craq walking, pivot boosting, etc. It won't work forever, but it can be incredibly disorienting to someone who doesn't know Link. So it doesn't help in escaping (which is terrible with his already limited close quarters options), but it's great for messing with people's heads.

When momentum is on his side, Link can stun you with just how fast he racks up damage, especially since a couple of zairs doesn't seem like much ("huh, a few bombs, a couple zairs, a gale boomerang, a nice jab combo, man this Link is hard to get.... holy crap, I just took 65% damage?!") and Link is good at walling people out, but I do agree with PK-ow that that's when you know you have a good Link; you can't just pick up Link and do well with him like you can MK or Pikachu or Dedede (against chaingrab-able characters).

Link usually either has a fairly firm control of the match or is struggling to get a toehold because he's excellent at midrange but simply lacks the speed to fight anyone (save Ganon) mano-a-mano if they get inside. Kinda the polar opposite of Weegee. The problem is when you get characters who can, with one move, steal the control of the match from him (gaynado for MK, a single grab from Dedede or Falco, etc.) and can keep it from him. That and characters that excel at getting gimps.
 

Rizen

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well... i am a link user and my opinon is that link need stronger attacks

he is strong, but no the necesari to compense his recovery
Link needs more shield knockback on his attacks like Ike. Link's whole game is about keeping opponents at a distance but they can shield grab him:urg:.
 

Ryos4

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One thing I will disagree with somewhat is Link's movement speed on the ground. His run sucks, yes, but his walk is among the fastest in the game (#5 or so), and it LOOKS like he's running to someone who doesn't play Link (he "sprints"). That means you can walk away and play mind games with a reverse fsmash or reverse dsmash or whatever, especially in combination with craq walking, pivot boosting, etc. It won't work forever, but it can be incredibly disorienting to someone who doesn't know Link. So it doesn't help in escaping (which is terrible with his already limited close quarters options), but it's great for messing with people's heads.
\
He mentions this which i actually make use of all the time. I try to play Link with a little running as physically possibly. Unless going for a dash attack or sprinting away from something you cant out run. Link i'm my opinion is best played like this. It allows him to make use of all his moves at all times, slide around easily with Ftilt whenever you want, and if i heard correctly actually reduces tripping with less sprinting.

However, he is slightly slower and it may cause you to miss the ability to follow up after certain attacks. Even though the added range of a sliding Ftilt makes up slower speed. Though it is important to know when to go from a run to a sprint.
 

Scabe

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I'm starting to agree with Link's new placement on the tier list.

I've been using Link for song long that whenever I switch to a different character I realize how good they are.

I can't see Link surpassing any of the characters in low. Maybe Zelda, but I think all the underrating has made me underrate her as well. I actually think she's a good character.

We need more Link players going out there entering tournaments. In Australia, I'm pretty much the only Link player.


 

quirkynature

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Wow, then I must just be bad at Smash Brothers. I can't play Falco for the life of me.:psycho:
No, don't worry. It was a two-day obsession to get higher up on the tier list. I'm sticking to low tiered characters. The highest I'll ever go is ZSS. The lowest I'll ever go is sucking terribly. :D
 

Anonano

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1) No one is repping Link well (besides you)
2) The BBR doesn't notice us anyways
 

Scabe

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I guess the question is, do you think he has the potential to move up?

He's pretty high in the Japanese Tier list:

S+: Metaknight
S: Snake
A: Falco, Pit, Marth, Fox, Wario, Diddy, King Dedede
B: Olimar, Game and Watch, Zelda/Shiek, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, ROB
C: Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, Pikachu
D: Donkey Kong, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Mario
E: Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi
F: Ganon, Samus, Falcon, Sonic, Jigglypuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257672

At the moment I can't see Link being better than anyone besides Ganon.
 

Rizen

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Tier List Version Four

TOP
S :metaknight:

HIGH
A :snake: :diddy: :falco: :popo: :marth: :warioc:
B :dedede: :pikachu2: :olimar: :lucario: :gw:

Middle
C :pit: :toonlink: :zerosuitsamus: :kirby2: :rob:
D :dk2: :peach: :fox: :luigi2: :wolf:
E :shiek: :pt: :sonic: :ness2: :bowser2:

Low
F :lucas: :ike: :yoshi2: :mario2: :falcon: :samus2: :jigglypuff:
G :zelda: :link2: :ganondorf:
I guess the question is, do you think he has the potential to move up?

He's pretty high in the Japanese Tier list:

S+: Metaknight
S: Snake
A: Falco, Pit, Marth, Fox, Wario, Diddy, King Dedede
B: Olimar, Game and Watch, Zelda/Shiek, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus, ROB
C: Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Kirby, Lucario, Pikachu
D: Donkey Kong, Peach, Ike, Lucas, Mario
E: Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, Link, Yoshi, Ness, Luigi
F: Ganon, Samus, Falcon, Sonic, Jigglypuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257672

At the moment I can't see Link being better than anyone besides Ganon.
Good link. I noticed the diversity of characters used from all tiers.
Link's MUs are bad but only a handful are ridiculous. If the opponent knows what they're doing, on the right stage, Link has almost no chance. Off the top of my head:
:falco::dedede::metaknight: :popo: (slightly easier>):warioc::dk2:
All these characters besides DK (who would be higher if DDD wasn't a factor) are S, A, or B tiers. In big tourneys in the USA half the people play MK and almost no one plays lower than high tier. I haven't played really good players of every character so this is based on limited experience; most characters I have a shot at beating and the player's skill is the bigger factor, except these^. I can't take more than one stock off people playing them seriously. Link is considerably better with less devastating MUs.

Like Ano said, there are very few Links in competitive smash. + the rules/stage selection are bias ...which isn't a huge factor.
1) No one is repping Link well (besides you)
2) The BBR doesn't notice us anyways
 

Huggles828

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I honestly think Link can move up a few spots. Yeah, he does suck, but he is a sucky character with a lot of depth and potential. I don't think he's gonna move above low tier because he has too many factors working against him, but I could see a jump to 32 or 33 on the list. He's got better matchups than Falcon for sure, I think he's better than Jiggs (aside from Jigglypuff holding her own against MK).

Zelda has proven to be a very shallow character metagamewise, but I still don't think she's that bad.

Is that list just based on tier or are the characters within each tier in order? Because Ganon is far and away the worst character, in my opinion (I think he should have his own tier, haha), and Sonic is definitely a good bit higher owing to having no truly unmanageable matchups and being one of the most unpredictable characters.
 

DeCOY.0

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I think it's interesting to note the difference between us and japan. they use sudden death and 1 round (single for losers bracket and double for winners bracket) elimination so they're much more cautious with their antics and more precise in their recoveries so defensive characters have a stronger hold in their meta-game as a result. that's how Pit can move up so high along with fox. i think that projectile spam is inherently defensive and so Link gets a slight boost there even though his recovery is his biggest downfall.

Also, i think that the precision that the Japanese scene has always created makes it so that characters like Pit, Sheik, ZSS, TL, and even Link can move up in their rankings. Full force zero-kill type stuff is our way of creating a metagame while theirs is about precision and technicallities.

Unfortunately for Link he doesn't get to be in a defensive, precision based metagame here...
 

Anonano

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Loool, awesome troll is awesome. :3

I'm glad RPSI decided to be nice in the off-chance it was a legit person, buuuut the chances are looking a little slim :p
 

Huggles828

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Haha, one can dream....

Maybe Link will be top tier in the next Super Smash Bros. game. He's never even been in the top half in a Smash game yet; he's had it coming :D
 

darklad64

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Gannon would have the G tier right? yo i swear my Gannon plays like an A tier though lol
 

Onomanic

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Definitely digging Link's placing in Japan B)

Go Hyrulian tier :D And aren't tiers more relevant than fact? It's all skill and tier is kinda of a psyche out. Say I play a good Link and I play a Meta Knight who isn't too good. There's still a chance for me to win.
 

Huggles828

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Definitely digging Link's placing in Japan B)

Go Hyrulian tier :D And aren't tiers more relevant than fact? It's all skill and tier is kinda of a psyche out. Say I play a good Link and I play a Meta Knight who isn't too good. There's still a chance for me to win.
Haha, yep, but isn't one of the ideas behind the tier list that both players are of equal skill and at the top of the metagame, i.e. among the best players? Basically, the tier list is based on a very specific set of circumstances, and even then it doesn't mean the higher tier character always wins or the lower tier character can't win. All it can do is predict outcomes. There are still things like playstyles and mindgames to account for.

And I still think the Zelda characters are placed wrong, haha. Zelda is a good bit better, Link is probably a spot or two better, and Ganon deserves his own tier IMO. I think they just put them all in the same tier for the lulz because all three aren't really viable and don't have a huge impact on the metagame in general.
 

Ryos4

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I understand how everyone feels about how Link should technically be placed higher. As he isnt that bad of a character to be in the very bottom. But if you think about it, what characters would you really suggest get shoved below him?

His only real strong points are his long range, Zair, and projectiles. Other characters have just as long range if not longer with less lag and probably more knock back, like Snake is quicker, Ike is stronger, and Marth is probably better in both if you consider tippers. As for Zair, Samus can work it better, make more use of it, and even kill with it. As for projectiles, TL can make better use of them for the most part being overall more agile.

So in reality Link's only true gimmick is his gale return. Which is probably one of his most useful aspects in his game play in terms of just messing with people. And if you take in consideration of all the bad things about him that Link players have to play around, its quite easy to see why he is so low.

I think hes around where he should be. Looking at the japanese tier list. I dont see Link better then Yoshi, Luigi, Samus, or Sonic. Though jiggly and ness are kinda debatable imo.
 

Scabe

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Yeah I don't think Link will move up anytime soon, he's a very hard character to use well and hardly anyone is repping him.
 

Huggles828

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I think he could bump up above Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon, who I think is overrated thanks to Ally using him, but yeah, those are the only two I could see Link jumping above anytime soon barring a Link flat out win in MLG Raleigh, haha, which I really doubt happening (well, I can dream, haha).
 

GarrBear

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This is why I hate tiers. I'm a Link main and I can dominate against my friends on Project M and Melee. Yes, since Brawl is slower, so are his moves, but I still do really well in that game. His triple up tilt is really good if you're below a platform and then you can juggle people until they're high enough for a grounded spin for the KO. Plus I use a boomerang plus side tilt for a quick combo that launches people. My playing style doesn't involve much shielding, dodging, or even grabbing, but I can make it on my own with this hunk by my side.
 
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