Official Let's Get King Dedede Buffed! An Official Patch Request

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#81
So we should use these characters (correct me if I'm wrong):
:4bayonetta::4falcon::4cloud::4corrin::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4megaman::4metaknight::4gaw::4sheik::4sonic::4tlink::4villager::4zss:

Also how should we go about making a montage that demonstrates Dededes flaws?
Should we just ask other boards to save recordings of them demolishing DDD with ease?
Those characters are the main perpetrators, especially Megaman. I think Megaman, a character that isn't considered a great tournament threat, would make a fine point of display to show off just how bad Dedede has it.

About a montage that shows Dedede's flaws, could work but I don't think it would go viral. I personally think it would be too long for the short attention span the majority of people have. To explain how even jabs and tilts are unsafe, on top of not being able to kill, to explain how specials don't kill unless there's a blue moon, how throws don't kill, the effects of slow areal movement + big target, the inability to threaten shields, the atrocious begin- and/or endlag, the difficulty of spiking as Dedede, ect...
would take at least 15-25 minutes.

Unless you send this video personally to Zero and Zero acknowledges and makes a comment video about it, I really doubt it would be successful.
 

SalsaSavant

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#82
Hey, I asked my Nintendo friend. As I expected, he can't really pass anything along. However, as we expected, he said Bill would probably be our best bet, because he's more likely to understand, and because he's a pretty cool guy (he's met him a few times.)

He also said that the SBR Tier list may be doing our job for us. He's pretty certain there's someone somewhere in NOA who monitors social media reactions and reports them to their counterparts in JP. There's no way something like that didn't get passed along. So, there's little doubt they're at least aware of his low tier status at this point. So hopefully, soon they'll start researching WHY, and come across our stuff. So let's just keep doing what we're doing, I guess?
 

Dar4

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#83
Do people really play FFAs a bunch?

From my casual experience back when Melee was new, we almost always played 1v1s. It's not like it's that common that many people are around all the time for large FFAs.
Well I only played Brawl casually with friends, and we always did FFAs when we played (mainly so nobody ever had to sit out). But that's just one person's experience.
 

Aki

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#84
I don't think there will be any more patches. From now it's time to just Dededeal with it and make the best of the situation.
 

SalsaSavant

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#85
I don't think there will be any more patches. From now it's time to just Dededeal with it and make the best of the situation.
They said they'd keep people around to "monitor" the game...and Corrin's 0 to death needs to be removed. It's very likely we're getting more patches.
 

Endurrr

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#88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7HZPHG0r70
If you watch this video where zero prank calls nintendo, the customer support worker essentially says that the more people that file a complaint about a character, the chances that the complaints will reach the developers' ears will increase. I feel like it is at least worth calling nintendo and reporting the blindspots of up smash and bair, and possibly people falling out of ftilt. Reporting these like theyre bugs could possibly increase the chances even more that it will reach developers' ears and draw more attention to king dedede's flaws.
 

Zenose

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#89
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7HZPHG0r70
If you watch this video where zero prank calls nintendo, the customer support worker essentially says that the more people that file a complaint about a character, the chances that the complaints will reach the developers' ears will increase. I feel like it is at least worth calling nintendo and reporting the blindspots of up smash and bair, and possibly people falling out of ftilt. Reporting these like theyre bugs could possibly increase the chances even more that it will reach developers' ears and draw more attention to king dedede's flaws.
I believe this is where you are referencing? (for those who don't wish to watch the entire video)
https://youtu.be/z7HZPHG0r70?t=4m59s

Another thing we could probably do is bring the DDD players together on something like discord to spread information and get more DDD players up in their skill levels (assuming this has not been said/done already)
 
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#90
There is maintenance work going on soon. This could mean a patch, which could mean a buff. What buffs would you like to see? I would like Gordo's to be harder to reflect, and gain a kill throw in Up-Throw.
 

ExiaPilotDedede

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#93
There is maintenance work going on soon. This could mean a patch, which could mean a buff. What buffs would you like to see? I would like Gordo's to be harder to reflect, and gain a kill throw in Up-Throw.
1. Up-B should break shields on the sweet spot crash down like bowser's Down-B.
2. F-Air should spike on sweet spot.
3. Gordos reflect at >6% or reduce the ending lag of the toss.
4. Fix the hitboxes so they match the animations for just about all of his moves.
5. Cut down the D-Air start up or ending lag.
6. Make rapid jab not safe on hit.

None of this is going to happen though since someone left the Dedede out in the rain.
 
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Muskrat Catcher

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#94
No, air speed could not be nerfed. It's the worst in the game, why would they nerf it.
I mean they already did it two patches ago, so they must have some reason
3. Gordos reflect at >6% or reduce the ending lag of the toss.
I've been seeing a lot of people say something like this, but guys, I kinda don't want that large of a reflection threshold. Think about it, many Nairs and moves like Sheik Fair only do 4%, and these moves should still reflect gordo. I mean, our lingering Nair can, so every character should get that opportunity (when their Nair is fresh at least). I'm just thinking that if these types of moves can't reflect gordo, many people will start to hate the Dedede matchup and Dedede players since gordo is so annoying to deal with and does such good damage. I think that a 4% threshold would be perfect, since weak projectiles can no longer reflect gordo, but Nairs and Fairs still can.
 

ExiaPilotDedede

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#96
No, air speed could not be nerfed. It's the worst in the game, why would they nerf it.
Why not? They already did once.

I mean they already did it two patches ago, so they must have some reason

I've been seeing a lot of people say something like this, but guys, I kinda don't want that large of a reflection threshold. Think about it, many Nairs and moves like Sheik Fair only do 4%, and these moves should still reflect gordo. I mean, our lingering Nair can, so every character should get that opportunity (when their Nair is fresh at least). I'm just thinking that if these types of moves can't reflect gordo, many people will start to hate the Dedede matchup and Dedede players since gordo is so annoying to deal with and does such good damage. I think that a 4% threshold would be perfect, since weak projectiles can no longer reflect gordo, but Nairs and Fairs still can.
I just want other characters to have to commit to the reflect instead of just being able to throw out a jab or tilt. If that means Dedede loses his nair reflect, that's fine. From my experience, people who don't know that gordo can be reflected have no problem dodging or shielding it, they just never use the punish option that gordo gives them. So I doubt that gordo spam would actually help and as such would not become a common thing as you suggest.

Low frame reflects like fox's or falco's Down-B don't seek and destroy dedede but attack based reflects do which is why such and "easy" punished needs to require mor work by the player reflecting it.
 
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Muskrat Catcher

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#97
Gordos do like barely any shield damage whatsoever. I see no issue with 6%.
If that means Dedede loses his nair reflect, that's fine. From my experience, people who don't know that gordo can be reflected have no problem dodging or shielding it, they just never use the punish option that gordo gives them. So I doubt that gordo spam would actually help and as such would not become a common thing as you suggest.
That's the thing though, we won't lose our Nair reflect, while other people will. I think that many people will get really mad and claim that Dedede uses gordo as a crutch. Also we all know how much people hate adapting to things like this. We will certainly be benefited from that change, but other people may see it as unfair. In addition, the lack of shield damage isn't that big of a deal if gordo forces people to shield to deal with it, since we can really capitalize off that pressure with amazing shield pressure, or just running in for a grab, then throwing them into gordo for a huge combo.

Although, I do concede that the more I think about it the more I can see redeeming qualities in having a 6% reflection threshold. I mean, some characters will have a very hard time reflecting gordo now, but we have almost no winning matchups right now, so gaining some based off of the character's inability to reflect gordo is fair. And honestly, every other heavy has been given some really cheesy mechanic that allows them to be viable (I mean have you seen Bowser's pivot grab range?). Maybe this could just be our cheese.
 

| F. |

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#98
Did I just see Dedede and amazing shield pressure in the same sentence? o-o

Anywho yeah, this would be our cheese. Better than Dedede getting a hoo-hah again. He doesn't need that ****.
 
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Soul Train

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#99
That's the thing though, we won't lose our Nair reflect, while other people will. I think that many people will get really mad and claim that Dedede uses gordo as a crutch. Also we all know how much people hate adapting to things like this. We will certainly be benefited from that change, but other people may see it as unfair. In addition, the lack of shield damage isn't that big of a deal if gordo forces people to shield to deal with it, since we can really capitalize off that pressure with amazing shield pressure, or just running in for a grab, then throwing them into gordo for a huge combo.

Although, I do concede that the more I think about it the more I can see redeeming qualities in having a 6% reflection threshold. I mean, some characters will have a very hard time reflecting gordo now, but we have almost no winning matchups right now, so gaining some based off of the character's inability to reflect gordo is fair. And honestly, every other heavy has been given some really cheesy mechanic that allows them to be viable (I mean have you seen Bowser's pivot grab range?). Maybe this could just be our cheese.
You're right on about potential outcry against Gordo. Lots of people would cry BROKEN/CHEESE/IMBA etc

And not without cause. But you have to ask two questions with buffs:
  1. Is it balanced? Absolutely. A harder to reflect Gordo would immediately force all lighter characters (ie 80% of our bad matchups) to actually shield or play around the thing, like I don't know all other projectiles in the game. This would force Sheiks/Diddys etc to approach and prevent us from having the bloody 60+ frames necessary to get Gordo out. Now they're approaching, now D3's decent punish game would instantly start working better. I like. But even if we just dream: take away the whole Gordo reflecting mechanic, D3 would still be bottom tier. He just wouldn't lose AS HARD to the keepaway. But that's would honestly not fit the character as well, which is the next question.
  2. The better question is: would this fit D3's character design? Not sure. To me, the Gordo reflect mechanic fits the King perfectly. Yes, framewise, it would be really easy to buff the frame data on our normals and call it a day - except that really wouldn't fit the character. D3 isn't meant to be stupid mobile. To me, D3 is more of a gimmicky character, one meant to take damage, trick opponents, and hit hard. It's just that all of our tricks (Gordo traps, fastfall Bair, Inhale, etc) are all beaten by really, really simple tools, and all require a ridiculous commitment. Buff our gimmicks - Gordo, Inhale, UpB, heck even Jet Hammer - and we have an even more hilarious D3. That's what I want.
Of course our broken hitboxes don't fit anyone in the game, those are a given patch request. But here's hoping! For the...16th time.
I mean they already did it two patches ago, so they must have some reason

I've been seeing a lot of people say something like this, but guys, I kinda don't want that large of a reflection threshold. Think about it, many Nairs and moves like Sheik Fair only do 4%, and these moves should still reflect gordo. I mean, our lingering Nair can, so every character should get that opportunity (when their Nair is fresh at least). I'm just thinking that if these types of moves can't reflect gordo, many people will start to hate the Dedede matchup and Dedede players since gordo is so annoying to deal with and does such good damage. I think that a 4% threshold would be perfect, since weak projectiles can no longer reflect gordo, but Nairs and Fairs still can.
Going off of the above: forcing the stupidly mobile/light characters to respect Gordo would only be...fair. They already have the agility and safety to get around Gordo easily and punish our high frame commitment. Yeah scrubs would cry, but who cares. Honestly I'm all for lowering Gordo damage in exchange for, like, anything. Gordo isn't meant to be our source of damage or even a killing weapon, it's our pressure tool. So let us pressure with it please Nintendo ;_;
 

SalsaSavant

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I've been thinking...

What if we got a reflect buff, but they let multiple hits reflect as a dowbnside? Like, Gordos would be stopped by multi-hit moves, and once it hits the total damage threshold, it would reflect.

IE: We throw it into a rapid jab that does 1 damage per hit. The Gordo would "freeze" and once it took, say, 5 damage total, it would reflect. That extra time would take commitment and allow us an easy counter-reflect, but would still be a valid option for an opponent who feels they lack options with the otherwise hard to reflect gordo.
 
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I've been thinking...

What if we got a reflect buff, but they let multiple hits reflect as a dowbnside? Like, Gordos would be stopped by multi-hit moves, and once it hits the total damage threshold, it would reflect.

IE: We throw it into a rapid jab that does 1 damage per hit. The Gordo would "freeze" and once it took, say, 5 damage total, it would reflect. That extra time would take commitment and allow us an easy counter-reflect, but would still be a valid option for an opponent who feels they lack options with the otherwise hard to reflect gordo.
That would actually be even better than it sounds, as the opponent would be preoccupied with Gordo Toss and allow us to do something else.
 
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It really comes down to why would you ever play a slow character? Fast and slow characters alike can kill at the same percentages. DDD has garbage frame data and nothing to show for it. Even light characters have nicer invincibility frames and priority. Isn't that ******** how an extremely slow moving character has no priority over anything? Why not have 2 chances for attack for every 1 that a slow a character has? Who cares because you can still take a stock and combo way easier, and avoid combos way eaiser as a fast and light character. Just pick a fast character and abandon this garbage. You would think Sakurai would ever notice, but who knows wtf they're doing.
 
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It really comes down to why would you ever play a slow character? Fast and slow characters alike can kill at the same percentages. DDD has garbage frame data and nothing to show for it. Even light characters have nicer invincibility frames and priority. Isn't that ******** how an extremely slow moving character has no priority over anything? Why not have 2 chances for attack for every 1 that a slow a character has? Who cares because you can still take a stock and combo way easier, and avoid combos way eaiser as a fast and light character. Just pick a fast character and abandon this garbage. You would think Sakurai would ever notice, but who knows wtf they're doing.
I know he is a very poor character. But he's fun and pretty dangerous if used correctly. I am not abandoning DDD. And I probably never will. Also let my tell you something I can say with confidence:DEDEDE HAS THE UNARGUABLE BEST ENDURANCE IN THE GAME. He is the Third Heaviest with an extremely fast falling speed, 2nd to Fox. That's good as it is. But then he has five midair jumps, and a brillant recovery move. He has extremely powerful setups with Gordo throw, which also grant him a great edgeguarding ability and traps. His Nair, Uair and Bair, all have landing lag so little that it doesn't matter. His smashes have extremely little end lag, and he can space very well. Is he bottom 5? Probably. That still doesn't stop him from being a great character, because Smash 4 1.1.5 is incredibly balanced. But you talk about him like he's the worst in the game, and I laugh at the thought of Dedede being worse than::4charizard:,:4littlemac:,:4miisword:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,:4palutena: and most notably, :4jigglypuff:. Sorry if I sounded aggressive or butt hurt, I just wanted to clarify why I and many others use him.
 

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I know he is a very poor character. But he's fun and pretty dangerous if used correctly. I am not abandoning DDD. And I probably never will. Also let my tell you something I can say with confidence:DEDEDE HAS THE UNARGUABLE BEST ENDURANCE IN THE GAME. He is the Third Heaviest with an extremely fast falling speed, 2nd to Fox. That's good as it is. But then he has five midair jumps, and a brillant recovery move. He has extremely powerful setups with Gordo throw, which also grant him a great edgeguarding ability and traps. His Nair, Uair and Bair, all have landing lag so little that it doesn't matter. His smashes have extremely little end lag, and he can space very well. Is he bottom 5? Probably. That still doesn't stop him from being a great character, because Smash 4 1.1.5 is incredibly balanced. But you talk about him like he's the worst in the game, and I laugh at the thought of Dedede being worse than::4charizard:,:4littlemac:,:4miisword:,:4miigun:,:4miibrawl:,:4palutena: and most notably, :4jigglypuff:. Sorry if I sounded aggressive or butt hurt, I just wanted to clarify why I and many others use him.
I like your sentiment, but it sounds like you're talking about a different character, or maybe just about For Glory impressions. All of D3's smashes all have significant endag, Fsmash included. That move does more damage, so the shieldstun is a bit higher. However it's definitely unsafe against everyone not named Luigi/Ganondorf.

Landing lag: what? 21 frames of landing lag means Bair is quite punishable, everyone in the game can shield and punish once they know the matchup. Nair's 15 frames of ending lag is first not even that good, but meaningless on shield due to horrible range. And lol Uair landing lag doesn't matter, 99% of the time that's not how the move is used. Don't even start on Dair. The rest of our frame data supports the point: we have nothing that's truly safe on shield. Then we also have nothing that truly threatens shield - so we lose both ways.

And yes, D3 is definitely worse than Mac. Mac is incredible, a great Mac player will flat out wreck D3. Same goes for Palutena, you probably just haven't played any legit Palutenas as they're so rare. I could also argue that D3 is notably worse than Zard as well - at least players have to be smart about rushing Zard down, what with his 4-frame disjointed jab, a 6-frame upper body invincible Usmash, a killthrow, and TWO killing armored moves.

Not trying to be a downer, only realistic. We have decent recovery, live forever, and edgeguard like a beast. And we have the only infinite taunt in the game :) That's D3.
 

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Literally anything.

And hopefully not another ****ing nerf to our already awful airspeed. :rolleyes:
I'll never really understand the air speed nerf, as Dedede's air speed was already the worst in the game before the nerf occurred. If anything, Dedede's air speed should've been increased to about 0.7.
 
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I like your sentiment, but it sounds like you're talking about a different character, or maybe just about For Glory impressions. All of D3's smashes all have significant endag, Fsmash included. That move does more damage, so the shieldstun is a bit higher. However it's definitely unsafe against everyone not named Luigi/Ganondorf.

Landing lag: what? 21 frames of landing lag means Bair is quite punishable, everyone in the game can shield and punish once they know the matchup. Nair's 15 frames of ending lag is first not even that good, but meaningless on shield due to horrible range. And lol Uair landing lag doesn't matter, 99% of the time that's not how the move is used. Don't even start on Dair. The rest of our frame data supports the point: we have nothing that's truly safe on shield. Then we also have nothing that truly threatens shield - so we lose both ways.

And yes, D3 is definitely worse than Mac. Mac is incredible, a great Mac player will flat out wreck D3. Same goes for Palutena, you probably just haven't played any legit Palutenas as they're so rare. I could also argue that D3 is notably worse than Zard as well - at least players have to be smart about rushing Zard down, what with his 4-frame disjointed jab, a 6-frame upper body invincible Usmash, a killthrow, and TWO killing armored moves.

Not trying to be a downer, only realistic. We have decent recovery, live forever, and edgeguard like a beast. And we have the only infinite taunt in the game :) That's D3.
Okay okay, I'll give you the Palutena. I am a little harsh on her. The problem is that Palutena is much better with customs, but she's not allowed them. Also, what? 21 frames for Bair? OH lord you are right. I'm super confused right now. It always seemed that it was less than 10 frames for me. I am shocked. Like really caught off guard. And Smash attacks have very little end lag. Is there something different with the European version or something?! The smash attacks are hard to punish from my experience from playing with and against Dedede (Well, maybe Up Smash's end lag is pretty bad). Also, Little Mac is a mixed bag. Here's the thing:Little Mac is such a badly designed character that it's hard to say if he is better or worse. Here's why I think Dedede is better. I'm going to list the pros and cons for each character
Cons.:
Little Mac:
1. His imfamous recovery, albeit okay vertically thanks to his Great wall jump.
2. A massive victim to command grabs
3.Again, imfamously bad in the air
4.Side B is pretty punishable
5. His special moves are ridiculously predictable
6. He is bad at gimping unless your name is StylesX2.

King Dedede:
1. He has horrible mobility.
2. He has arguably the biggest hitbox in the game.
3. Unarguably the easiest to combo in the game.
4.Some aerials have bad ending lag. Fair, Dair (and I guess Bair?)
5. His Smash Attacks have horrible startup lag. And Up Smash also has long end lag (The other two don't seem that bad)
6. His frame data is generally bad.

Pro's:
Little Mac:
1. His ground game is absolutely brillant
2. He has the best down tilt in the game
3. He can combo greatly from his down tilt.
4.Forward Tilt goes without saying
5. His specials and smash attacks have Super Armour.
6.The aforementioned amazing wall jump
King Dedede
1. He also has Super Armour, albeit only in Super Dedede jump
2. He may have the best recovery in the game
3. He has the best endurance in the game
4. He has amazing jab cancels.
5. He has brillant setups in Gordo Toss.
6. He can gimp and edgeguard brillantly
7. He has the DededeCide.
8. All Aerials can kill (Even fair)

I think Dedede is slightly better than Little Mac, but that is the word. SLIGHTLY. A good Little Mac will tear any character apart. Sol has shown this time and time again. However, I think Dedede has a "Nearly Unloseable" matchup against Little Mac. The moment Mac is offstage against Dedede, he is dead. Even onstage, where it's more even, I'd still argue Dedede wins by a small margin. Inhale kinda kills the point of having Super Armor, and Dedede's grab out reaches Mac's. Dedede has a projectile that helps him in the neutral and Mac does not. Even though literally a jab from Little Mac can reflect it, Dedede can once more reflect it by using Nair or Down Tilt. I am a little busy now so I'll talk about Charzard later.
 

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snip

Pro's:
Little Mac:
1. His ground game is absolutely brillant
2. He has the best down tilt in the game
3. He can combo greatly from his down tilt.
4.Forward Tilt goes without saying
5. His specials and smash attacks have Super Armour.
6.The aforementioned amazing wall jump
King Dedede
1. He also has Super Armour, albeit only in Super Dedede jump
2. He may have the best recovery in the game
3. He has the best endurance in the game
4. He has amazing jab cancels.
5. He has brillant setups in Gordo Toss.
6. He can gimp and edgeguard brillantly
7. He has the DededeCide.
8. All Aerials can kill (Even fair)
First, this isn't the place for this discussion. Please talk about matchups in one of the dedicated threads.

I will say: it's great to see new people here thinking hard through matchups, but I'm afraid it's clear this argument is coming from theory fighting rather than competitive experience. A strong Little Mac is a wall to D3, one that patiently corners and destroys us. Just because you've Inhaled some stupid Macs on For Glory, please don't start sharing misinformation like this.

Almost nothing you cited about D3's strengths is a competitive advantage. We don't have the best recovery whatsoever, ours is not only predictable but also the easiest to two-frame in the entire game. With our aerials: if they're averaged, ours actually have the worst kill %s out of all the heavies. Especially when compared to startup/endlag.

D3 does not have jab cancels. Ours is the worst jab in the game - it's unsafe ON HIT, and smart opponents know to jump/DI out.

Again, the thought process is appreciated, but 1. Talk matchups in the right thread, and 2. Don't spread misinformation based on poor players.
 
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First, this isn't the place for this discussion. Please talk about matchups in one of the dedicated threads.

I will say: it's great to see new people here thinking hard through matchups, but I'm afraid it's clear this argument is coming from theory fighting rather than competitive experience. A strong Little Mac is a wall to D3, one that patiently corners and destroys us. Just because you've Inhaled some stupid Macs on For Glory, please don't start sharing misinformation like this.

Almost nothing you cited about D3's strengths is a competitive advantage. We don't have the best recovery whatsoever, ours is not only predictable but also the easiest to two-frame in the entire game. With our aerials: if they're averaged, ours actually have the worst kill %s out of all the heavies. Especially when compared to startup/endlag.

D3 does not have jab cancels. Ours is the worst jab in the game - it's unsafe ON HIT, and smart opponents know to jump/DI out.

Again, the thought process is appreciated, but 1. Talk matchups in the right thread, and 2. Don't spread misinformation based on poor players.
Alright, I'm sorry. It's true, I have not fought many great Macs, but ones I did I was able to usually get a good fight and sometimes a win. It's from experience that I think. I guess I'm just inexperienced. And I may be using the wrong term (Jab cancels) with what I'm talking about. What is Jab-Jab-Grab or Jab-Jab-D-Tilt supposed to be then? But I really disagree on the killing aerials part. Nair kills (I am not talking about just damn Jigglypuff, even heavies) and it comes out frame 7. Uair kills and it comes out frame 11. That is barely slower than our jab. You are right about the other aerials though.. Poor King Dedede. It's sad but true, my opponents often know how to DI out. And okay, I really do not know what is going on with Bair, because I went onto training mode, slowed it down to 1/4 and I can tell you, that was not close to 84 frames. I really am confused because it's obvious you know more about King Dedede than me, but it isn't even a second (60 frames) of landing lag for me. I swear there is a region difference. I'm sorry for talking about matchups here when we are talking about buffs.


Actually to change the subject, what would you like to see buffed?
 

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Actually to change the subject, what would you like to see buffed?
I just want to see Dedede have his hitboxes match his character model. Whiffing up-smash with your hammer colliding with your opponent's character model is rage inducing. If I wanted an actual buff that is beyond just fixing glaring flaws in the character, I'd ask for a faster (safer) jab. They could honestly even nerf the kill power of last hit jab 3 if it gave 3D something safe to use on shield.
 

Soul Train

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Alright, I'm sorry. It's true, I have not fought many great Macs, but ones I did I was able to usually get a good fight and sometimes a win. It's from experience that I think. I guess I'm just inexperienced. And I may be using the wrong term (Jab cancels) with what I'm talking about. What is Jab-Jab-Grab or Jab-Jab-D-Tilt supposed to be then? But I really disagree on the killing aerials part. Nair kills (I am not talking about just damn Jigglypuff, even heavies) and it comes out frame 7. Uair kills and it comes out frame 11. That is barely slower than our jab. You are right about the other aerials though.. Poor King Dedede. It's sad but true, my opponents often know how to DI out. And okay, I really do not know what is going on with Bair, because I went onto training mode, slowed it down to 1/4 and I can tell you, that was not close to 84 frames. I really am confused because it's obvious you know more about King Dedede than me, but it isn't even a second (60 frames) of landing lag for me. I swear there is a region difference. I'm sorry for talking about matchups here when we are talking about buffs.


Actually to change the subject, what would you like to see buffed?
Cancelling means you can interrupt the animation of a move with another. Jab 1, Jab 2, grab isn't a cancel, it's a string. And since the frame data is so bad on jab, it's actually a very unsafe string; Yoshi can Nair out of it almost every time.

With killing aerials: I specifically said when averaged D3's kill %s and frame data are the worst among the heavies. Very different.

Buffwise: fix broken hitboxes, make zoning tools actually safe when spaced right, improve frame data on Gordo/Inhale, and better knockback on throws. Check out the list in the original post.

I'd really recommend you play matches outside of For Glory - try Anther's Ladder, or better yet play some of the better players in our Discord chat. Even if you just want faster, quick feedback - there's a link in the master resource thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/read-before-making-new-threads-the-dededirectory.421338/. Take a look, and be sure to use some of the resources here.
 
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Everything.

Thats not me being cute or funny, I legit want everything to be buffed in some way. Look at how such seemingly minor changes have made samus and zelda actually usable. Just imagine what they could do for D3.
I can confirm as a Zelda main that the changes we got were absolutely brillant. You want to know something? If the opponent gets launched at the right angle, D-Throw into Bair (Lighting Kick) is a thing. AKA, 26% off two moves. As for Dedede, hmm. I think you have a good idea. Buff everything a small bit. Example. D-Throw has less knockback, U-Throw becomes at kill move at very high percents (Say killing Bowser at 190%). Nair comes out frame 1 (I'm dead serious), Fair does much more knockback at the cost of doing slightly less damage (overall a buff). Dair gets a bigger disjoint and Sweetspot, Gordo's can only be reflected by 10% (So people actually have to put a small commitment). Dair comes out frame 8. And U-Air kills Mario at 90%. Decrease his falling speed and buff his air speed. Here's a question



How would you buff Jet Hammer?
 
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Cancelling means you can interrupt the animation of a move with another. Jab 1, Jab 2, grab isn't a cancel, it's a string. And since the frame data is so bad on jab, it's actually a very unsafe string; Yoshi can Nair out of it almost every time.

With killing aerials: I specifically said when averaged D3's kill %s and frame data are the worst among the heavies. Very different.

Buffwise: fix broken hitboxes, make zoning tools actually safe when spaced right, improve frame data on Gordo/Inhale, and better knockback on throws. Check out the list in the original post.

I'd really recommend you play matches outside of For Glory - try Anther's Ladder, or better yet play some of the better players in our Discord chat. Even if you just want faster, quick feedback - there's a link in the master resource thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/read-before-making-new-threads-the-dededirectory.421338/. Take a look, and be sure to use some of the resources here.
Alright, I'd rather get rekt and learn from it than win against FG Bayonetta's. Thank you for this. Also, inhale desperately needs to improve.
 

PeliPenguin

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One of the things I find frustrating about D3 is that despite having a sub par neutral, his punishment options are often inferior to other characters. The best example I can think of is Utilt, which is a bootleg version of Mario Usmash. His ability to secure stocks is also noticeably worse than the other heavies, despite having moves that can kill at around 80%, all his fast moves don't kill until around 180% which makes no sense considering other heavies can sneeze on you and kill you.

Ways to keep D3 out of bottom tier:
  • Give Utilt Brawl power, its already slower than Mario Usmash so making it stronger would make sense considering D3's archetype.
  • Make Jab work properly. This move is punishable on hit at low% and doesn't connect well at kill%. D3 gets good reward of his Jab such as Jab1,Jab2,Grab, and it can kill at high % so let it do that without randomly failing.
  • Kill Throw. Bthrow has very good knockback, problem is is that it launches opponents... upwards, simply changing the angle would give D3 a safe way to secure stocks which would bring him in line with other heavies.
  • Either make Usmash much stronger or reduce its endlag, also improve its hitboxes. This move is a mess, it has wonky hitboxes, bad sourspots, ridiculous amount of endlag and underwhelming power. Make it hit opponents in front of him, and make it easily kill at around 90% without having to worry about sourspots, reduce its endlag by a bit too because this move has no reason to have more endlag than fsmash.
  • Give ftilt slightly more knockback and improve the hitboxes so it links better, this move is simply too weak considering how punishable it is. Having it kill at around 140% near a ledge would help D3 in the late game.
  • Slightly improve the start up on D3's dash attack so it can at least punish rolls. Other heavies have good run speed (with the exception of Ganon but he has a good dash attack as well as sideb) which allow them to punish a scared opponent rolling away. D3 can't exert this kind of pressure because most characters can roll away from him for free. If the opponent were actively frightened of dash attack it would give him the fear factor other heavies have.
  • Inhale should have less endlag. A huge commitment for 10% and stage control isn't enough.
  • Gordos should always stick to ledges. Why this is decided by luck beats me. This would improve D3's already good edgeguarding.
Even with these things D3 would still be low tier, however this would make it feel less... unfair when playing as him. There are often times when I have read my opponent but D3 can't do anything about it, a heavy hitter like him should be scaring his opponent, but he can only do that if he gets lucky with a bair or fsmash as most of his moveset is strangely weak.

I'm not really sure on Gordo reflect buffs, the move is really slow as it is so I get the impression is isn't meant to be used in neutral at all, the idea of D3 playing gordo tennis doesn't strike me as a critical part of his game, but rather a gimmick to trick your opponent maybe once or twice. I'm fine with it as it is, a pressuring tool in advantage only.

I don't really believe in movement buffs or frame data buffs because they wouldn't really fit D3's character. The way I see it is that his neutral is cruddy but his advantage state is menacing, so buffs to his power make the most sense. Of course, if he wants to be top tier he has to have good mobility but its evident that D3's archetype will always keep him in the lower half of the cast.
 
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One of the things I find frustrating about D3 is that despite having a sub par neutral, his punishment options are often inferior to other characters. The best example I can think of is Utilt, which is a bootleg version of Mario Usmash. His ability to secure stocks is also noticeably worse than the other heavies, despite having moves that can kill at around 80%, all his fast moves don't kill until around 180% which makes no sense considering other heavies can sneeze on you and kill you.

Ways to keep D3 out of bottom tier:
  • Give Utilt Brawl power, its already slower than Mario Usmash so making it stronger would make sense considering D3's archetype.
  • Make Jab work properly. This move is punishable on hit at low% and doesn't connect well at kill%. D3 gets good reward of his Jab such as Jab1,Jab2,Grab, and it can kill at high % so let it do that without randomly failing.
  • Kill Throw. Bthrow has very good knockback, problem is is that it launches opponents... upwards, simply changing the angle would give D3 a safe way to secure stocks which would bring him in line with other heavies.
  • Either make Usmash much stronger or reduce its endlag, also improve its hitboxes. This move is a mess, it has wonky hitboxes, bad sourspots, ridiculous amount of endlag and underwhelming power. Make it hit opponents in front of him, and make it easily kill at around 90% without having to worry about sourspots, reduce its endlag by a bit too because this move has no reason to have more endlag than fsmash.
  • Give ftilt slightly more knockback and improve the hitboxes so it links better, this move is simply too weak considering how punishable it is. Having it kill at around 140% near a ledge would help D3 in the late game.
  • Slightly improve the start up on D3's dash attack so it can at least punish rolls. Other heavies have good run speed (with the exception of Ganon but he has a good dash attack as well as sideb) which allow them to punish a scared opponent rolling away. D3 can't exert this kind of pressure because most characters can roll away from him for free. If the opponent were actively frightened of dash attack it would give him the fear factor other heavies have.
  • Inhale should have less endlag. A huge commitment for 10% and stage control isn't enough.
  • Gordos should always stick to ledges. Why this is decided by luck beats me. This would improve D3's already good edgeguarding.
Even with these things D3 would still be low tier, however this would make it feel less... unfair when playing as him. There are often times when I have read my opponent but D3 can't do anything about it, a heavy hitter like him should be scaring his opponent, but he can only do that if he gets lucky with a bair or fsmash as most of his moveset is strangely weak.

I don't really believe in movement buffs or frame data buffs because they wouldn't really fit D3's character. The way I see it is that his neutral is cruddy but his advantage state is menacing, so buffs to his power make the most sense. Of course, if he wants to be top tier he has to have good mobility but its evident that D3's archetype will always keep him in the lower half of the cast.
Dedede was still slow as hell, in Brawl, but he's ranked 12th, above the likes of Tink and G&W (Don't deny it, G&W was good in Brawl). I don't get why characters from the KIRBY SERIES have slow air speeds. That be the equivalent of Shulk being short ranged, or Pikachu was slow on the ground. I like your buff's though.
 

PeliPenguin

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Dedede was still slow as hell, in Brawl, but he's ranked 12th, above the likes of Tink and G&W (Don't deny it, G&W was good in Brawl). I don't get why characters from the KIRBY SERIES have slow air speeds. That be the equivalent of Shulk being short ranged, or Pikachu was slow on the ground. I like your buff's though.
Brawl D3 was ranked highly because of his extremely polarising playstyle which invalidated a large number of characters, not because his character archetype of being slow and strong was actually effective, it was a design oversight that lead him to be good in a way that contrasts his intended character design.

As for air speeds being slow, Kirby and D3 are both very slow in Kirby games when they're floating, which was designed to counter act the fact you had infinite flight. Its likely Sakurai carried this idea over into Smash and went further to apply it to every character with multiple jumps but Puff, of course infinite flight would be too strong so he limited it to multiple jumps.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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We don't have the best recovery whatsoever, ours is not only predictable but also the easiest to two-frame in the entire game.
I'd like to add to that statement in that Super Dedede Jump is Counter bait for any fighter who has a Counter move. And even if Dedede cancels the hitbox frames for Super Dedede Jump, the helpless state penalty leaves him wide open for additional punishment.
 
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I'd like to add to that statement in that Super Dedede Jump is Counter bait for any fighter who has a Counter move. And even if Dedede cancels the hitbox frames for Super Dedede Jump, the helpless state penalty leaves him wide open for additional punishment.
Why would you ever use it against a character with a counter is beyond me.
 
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