Let's discuss Bowser's Koopa Klaw dthrow - an in depth discussion

[ZGE]

I just wanted to discuss what Bowser's new dthrow does for him as well as enhance Bowser's gameplay theory. A lot of what I say is what I've considered in my own mind and I may have a lot of unfinished thoughts that I spill out on here which may not necessarily be correct either, so feel free to correct me if needed. In short, I think KK dthrow is an incredibly useful addition to Bowser's kit. According to the Project M Changelog,

"--Koopa Klaw Down Throw added.
--Grounded version is a tech-chase slam.
--Aerial version is a spike."

It doesn't explicitly say on the Project M site, but the dthrow does 15% unstaled and the aerial version appears to send opponents at around a 285 degree angle or so with neutral DI (i.e. no DI). This alone makes the move fantastic offstage. Now let's get more in depth.

The grounded version forces a tech chase situation. As most of you know an opponent has several options when flying to the ground. They can 1) tech in place, 2) tech right, 3) tech left, 4) no tech normal getup, 5) no tech roll right, 6) no tech roll left, 7) no tech getup attack, or 8) wait. With every character's frame data on rolls and techs being normalized, this means that Bowser consistently has 10 or so frames (unsure of this number) of advantage on a character upon them hitting the ground. I'm unsure if he can re-command grab tech chase (edit: tested and definitely can't), although I would imagine that he can't. If that's the case, once opponents figure out he can't KK regrab it makes teching a much more often picked option. Let's imagine you have your opponent near the ledge and you get a koopa klaw. Your options are obviously 1) fthrow, 2) bthrow, and 3) dthrow. Back throw would probably be used at kill percents, but let's say your opponent isn't necessarily there yet, maybe around mid-percent.

This is where the addition of dthrow proves to be an insanely good mixup opportunity. A grounded dthrow near the ledge, while it can be meteor canceled, will send your opponent offstage. On stages with walls, they can DI in and tech the wall. But as we all know, DI in is horrible DI for Bowser's KK fthrow and back throw. Expecting a KK dthrow? Opponent may reactively DI in. So KK fthrow and uair them off the stage, or jump KK regrab and send them back down or up or out or whatever. Expecting a KK fthrow? Opponent DI's out to prevent a guaranteed follow up. So Dthrow instead and send them at a worse angle, then you get an excellent edgeguarding opportunity (maybe down b to grab the ledge depending on character if they go straight for the ledge?). Although even as I'm fleshing this out, fthrow near the ledge may seem like the best option still, but I think the mixup proves to be really great. I don't have 3.6 in front of me so I can't test out theorycraft like I would like at the moment.

Now then, let's say you KK dthrow while not at the ledge. You still can have some great mixups. If your opponent expects KK fthrow and they DI out, you can dthrow and tech chase dash attack if they missed the tech or do something else if they tech roll away (edit: fsmash reads on missed tech rolls are more hype than anything Falcon does). Again, an opponent expecting a KK dthrow who would DI in and tech in place would be another prime candidate for being fthrown and up aired.

One more thing I would like to start discussing is that opponents would probably opt to shield less if they knew all the options present for getting KK'd. This means that they would generally be susceptible to getting hit by more of Bowser's other moves. What I don't think the dthrow changes is Bowser's neutral - it's still fairly bad and Bowser players will have to be very careful about how they play. But it would seem to me at least the scariness of the new dthrow would alter how opponents play against Bowser.

So, Bowser board, can we get discussion rolling? What other things do you think considering his changes, particularly to KK down throw? How does this affect certain specific matchups?

 

[Joak.]

You are right about the usefulness of the addition if one finds themselves with a KK grab facing ledge. It can provide some mix ups, but it is generally better to DI away for both KKf-throw and KKd-throw (unless near ledge and teching wall like you said).

The problem is that KK isn't great in neutral which prevents KKd-throw from being used effectively. KK has been improved for sure, but still is best kept for hard reads and predicted recovery paths when not on ledge (ie predicting high recovery for the KK grab into aerial d-throw spike). But these situations aren't very reliable. Plus there is always the unexpected falling KK on shield, but how long is that going to work? I would consider that a read more than a safe option. The KKd-throw is good if you can abuse their getup to get a hit with dash attack, d-tilt, or fire (or wtv). Whether you KKd-throw or KKu-throw is situational or just based on preference. Both rack up damage. Depends whether you feel the tech chase is more guaranteed than an aerial follow up. Sometimes you can land a followup with either, but in some cases depending on fall speed/weight they differ in effect.

KK's best use is from ledge. This way you can KKb-throw for a kill, or you could use the new spike in KKd-throw (which they could tech). Because of this I feel the KK provides potential variety for ledge kills, but not much else other than slight gimmick when it comes to Bowser's gameplay.

This is what I have found to be most useful with KK, but if somebody finds a setup from neutral where the opponent is in hit-stun and Bowser could jump cancel his down-b (bowser bomb) into a KK d-throw spike I'd say that'd take the cake. I think that is something reserved for extra crispy days though.

So does KKd-throw enhance his gameplay? Yes, and potentially more if there is some set up into aerial spike. I don't think it should be over-hyped though until that is further examined.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I have a serious problem finding the ideal punish on an Unteched KK downthrow. So far all i found is a double jab (They can jump or react before i get a grab off the first jab) or a tech chase grab. What am i doing wrong? Is my timing off somehow?

 

[ZGE]

You are right about the usefulness of the addition if one finds themselves with a KK grab facing ledge. It can provide some mix ups, but it is generally better to DI away for both KKf-throw and KKd-throw (unless near ledge and teching wall like you said).

I think this could be character dependent as well: characters with horrible recovery such as Falcon would probably want to tech the wall rather than meteor cancel, whereas characters with better recoveries may opt to DI out and meteor cancel and attempt to mix up how they get back on. But generally I agree with you about DI.

The problem is that KK isn't great in neutral which prevents KKd-throw from being used effectively. KK has been improved for sure, but still is best kept for hard reads and predicted recovery paths when not on ledge (ie predicting high recovery for the KK grab into aerial d-throw spike). But these situations aren't very reliable. Plus there is always the unexpected falling KK on shield, but how long is that going to work? I would consider that a read more than a safe option. The KKd-throw is good if you can abuse their getup to get a hit with dash attack, d-tilt, or fire (or wtv). Whether you KKd-throw or KKu-throw is situational or just based on preference. Both rack up damage. Depends whether you feel the tech chase is more guaranteed than an aerial follow up. Sometimes you can land a followup with either, but in some cases depending on fall speed/weight they differ in effect.

Again I think you're pretty on point here. I think there could be instances during a match or set where you condition your opponent to shield. This could be interpreted as a read though, although if an opponent sees you falling toward them expecting to get KK'd, they could then jump up and nair or bair or something before you got it out. But then you could potentially nair through their attack. Mixups. :D

I was playing a lot yesterday and was getting KK dthrow to hard read fsmash when my opponent did the normal getup or rolled behind me (both of which seem like bad ideas against Bowser since he's such a fatty). Super hype. But if you can get more damage from fthrow into fair or uair into edgeguard, then that might be better as well.

KK's best use is from ledge. This way you can KKb-throw for a kill, or you could use the new spike in KKd-throw (which they could tech). Because of this I feel the KK provides potential variety for ledge kills, but not much else other than slight gimmick when it comes to Bowser's gameplay.

From the ledge, yes. This might be character dependent as well, but bthrow offstage may be your best bet against characters with poor recoveries. I was grinding against a Falco yesterday and as soon as I got him offstage he was pretty much dead. :D Against others it may be worth it to KK dthrow and get more damage from a tech chase situation should they be at lower percents. Although if they're getting KK'd from a ledgehop they're probably at higher percent anyway.

This is what I have found to be most useful with KK, but if somebody finds a setup from neutral where the opponent is in hit-stun and Bowser could jump cancel his down-b (bowser bomb) into a KK d-throw spike I'd say that'd take the cake. I think that is something reserved for extra crispy days though.

I think KK fthrow on an unsuspecting opponent could very well do the trick for that. Or maybe dash attack through a poor aerial approach (Falco's lasers, ZSS's nair, Mario's coming in with a fireball, Falcon's nair, maybe others)? Can't really test right now but I think it has potential.

So does KKd-throw enhance his gameplay? Yes, and potentially more if there is some set up into aerial spike. I don't think it should be over-hyped though until that is further examined.

Good point here. I do think there's a lot of potential with this move and getting dthrow into fsmash is super hype, but that shouldn't work on anyone who figures out the tech window. The problem as you pointed out is getting the grab in the first place. Very well thought out post.

Edit: tasteless gentleman, I would try turning on debug mode. From there, turn on frame by frame and KK grab KK grab dthrow while holding shield. Count how many frames it takes from your opponent taking damage to when your shield comes up. I think it's about 15-17ish (I don't have it in front of me so I can't test it), but see for yourself to make sure. Divide that by 60 (frames per second) to get the time in seconds in which you can act. Or if you don't want to do that, just try acting out of dthrow as fast as you can over and over (even if you end up not doing anything, then you know you were too fast and you can adjust). You can definitely get a good punish from a missed tech by waiting for your opponent to do something. Down smash is a great move that covers many options now. But if you want to go for a hard read, fsmash is super hype.

 

[gmBottles]

I don't think Bowser really needed the onstage throw with KK. He already has d-throw for tech chasing which works pretty well, and is easier to land in neutral. I do think the offstage d-throw is cool, though I don't think it's necessarily that good, since it's kinda hard to land a KK grab offstage anyways.

I haven't played yet though, so maybe I'm wrong. Does midair KK always default to d-throw now? Or is it just another option?

 

[ZGE]

I don't think Bowser really needed the onstage throw with KK. He already has d-throw for tech chasing which works pretty well, and is easier to land in neutral. I do think the offstage d-throw is cool, though I don't think it's necessarily that good, since it's kinda hard to land a KK grab offstage anyways.

I haven't played yet though, so maybe I'm wrong. Does midair KK always default to d-throw now? Or is it just another option?

Midair KK still defaults to fthrow I think.

For me personally, I don't use regular dthrow that much (I'm probably doing Bowser wrong then, lol). You're definitely right about that being easier to land in neutral though.

 

[Taytertot]

I have a serious problem finding the ideal punish on an Unteched KK downthrow. So far all i found is a double jab (They can jump or react before i get a grab off the first jab) or a tech chase grab. What am i doing wrong? Is my timing off somehow?

if they dont tech then it depends. if their getup attack doesnt have great range you can dash dance back then immediately forward to get another KK dthrow (or just any KK throw) which also may cover regular getup though regular getup is faster. it also can cover roll behind you if you just dash dance back and then get another KK dthrow. If they roll away you'd have to read that and chase after with maybe a dash attack (idk if anything else would work).

if you dont want to regrab with KK then crouch attack would work for getup attack and regular getup for sure. for roll behind you could dash back and throw out a dash attack or just do a turn around ftilt as well. If you read a roll away you could do SH flame breath since flame cancel was taken out.

The grounded version forces a tech chase situation. As most of you know an opponent has several options when flying to the ground. They can 1) tech in place, 2) tech right, 3) tech left, 4) no tech normal getup, 5) no tech roll right, 6) no tech roll left, 7) no tech getup attack, or 8) wait. With every character's frame data on rolls and techs being normalized, this means that Bowser consistently has 10 or so frames (unsure of this number) of advantage on a character upon them hitting the ground. I'm unsure if he can re-command grab tech chase (edit: tested and definitely can't), although I would imagine that he can't. If that's the case, once opponents figure out he can't KK regrab it makes teching a much more often picked option. Let's imagine you have your opponent near the ledge and you get a koopa klaw. Your options are obviously 1) fthrow, 2) bthrow, and 3) dthrow. Back throw would probably be used at kill percents, but let's say your opponent isn't necessarily there yet, maybe around mid-percent.

KK dthrow while even close to the ledge would allow you to cover all options with crouch and react (assuming that the KK dthrow puts them on the ground near enough to the ledge that roll away doesnt get them very far). if they do anything but roll behind/tech behind then crouch attack should work unless bowser is at a high enough percent that a far ranged getup attack would take him out of his armor/CC. and as long as youre ready to react then you could do a turn around ftilt or grounded fortress to cover roll/tech behind. If youre really quick then turn around KK might catch both roll/tech behind though roll behind would be much easier.

Even if they arent near the ledge then crouch and wait should cover a fair amount of options.

 

[Filosafer]

Getup attacks break light armour. I dunno how much it fluctuates from character to character, but every getup attack I've seen with it breaks light armour. Whether it be crouch, charge armour, or dsmash.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Getup attacks break light armour. I dunno how much it fluctuates from character to character, but every getup attack I've seen with it breaks light armour. Whether it be crouch, charge armour, or dsmash.

Thats the problem, if the cpu (9) have perfect reactions then its possible for a human to nontech and immediately get up attack and i have to dash back or shield. At best i would say that this is a 50/50 tech chase into a grab or a 100% dtilt or double jab follow up. The get attacks have invincible frames and break armour so its pointless to try armouring or crouching. Its gonna be either dash back or shield for the 50/50