Leffen a 6th God in melee

[Mystic Dragon]

Thoughts on that?

 

[EPsilon933]

He might be

 

[AirFair]

Well, I don't think taking out all of the 5 gods makes you a god per say. The gods were aptly named for their dominance over a long period of time. Leffen might be able to beat them all, but can he keep beating them all?

 

[Shaq]

Back when I used to play bball they was sayin that the chinese was comin to get us yo so I ain't surprised

 

[MOHadam]

Mango said in an interview that he would not consider leffen as a part of the top 5 group until he was able to take a major American tournament where most of the current top 5 are present. As far as im aware this has not happened yet, so unless Leffen wins Apex 2015 or another major later in the year he will not be considered a "god" of melee.

Also time is a factor with the melee top 5. All of them have been dominating the game for years and have proven time and time again that the only people who have the ability to challenge them consistently are other members of the top 5.

Leffen just doesnt have the ressume that the other top 5 have. Granted he is an amazing player and is definitely right under the top 5. Give him another year, maybe a little less, and melee might just have a sixth top player.

 

[tauKhan]

In my opinion, there's two tiers on the absolute top now, and big 5 is an outdated term. The tiers are, of course 1: Mango, Armada, PP
2: Leffen, M2k and hbox with leffen being the closest atm after beast5.
Head to head stats support heavily my view: The first tier players had basically 63% winrate vs top6 in 2014 and the 2nd tier players had 33%, and all the players in the same tier were very close to each other. Also the tier 1 players had all the major tourney wins in 2014.

However, the gap between the tiers isn't really that big, and I think the overall level of melee improved a lot in 2014. So much so that many players below the top6 level are now actually close in skill and can easily cause upsets even against the top 6.

After beastV it would be silly to rank hbox above leffen, and I would consider leffen above (but very very close) m2k now.

Well, I don't think taking out all of the 5 gods makes you a god per say. The gods were aptly named for their dominance over a long period of time. Leffen might be able to beat them all, but can he keep beating them all?

I think many players are emphasizing the time element far too much. Also people seem to have such a short memory: the term "five gods" is actually quite new. I searched for some posts of 2012-2013, look at this apex 2013 predictions thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/top-ten-at-apex-2013-predictions.328692/page-63 . As far as I remember the term 5 gods wasn't really used before Armada's retirement. M2k had his own tier before 2013, in 2010-2012 he went like 2-20 or something vs the big 4. Also by the Mango quote by @ MOHadam , it could be argued that top4 should have never been extended to top5, since m2k's biggest tournament win big house 3 only had 2 of the top 4 in attendance, pp and hbox. I guess Armada's "retirement" kind of means that it was actually 2/3, but I don't think that should be considered. To that note, leffens beastV victory is more impressive than any m2k has had in recent memory.

 

[R-Moeny]

Is wobbles tied with leffen too? He's beaten 4 of the top 5 in American melee and the one he hasn't beat he hasn't played iirc

 

[ZaXXoR]

i'm top 5 k

 

[Bones0]

The tricky part about this discussion is M2K and Hbox can't win **** even if they occasionally take sets off the other gods. Leffen's demonstrated he can beat all of the gods except M2K, and now he's won a major. If the god term is gonna stick around, I think it should just be applied to Mango, Armada, and PP, with Leffen in purgatory until we see a few more solid performances.

Actually, even that doesn't make much sense because the whole idea behind the god term was no one outside of the gods was able to defeat each other. I don't think this separation exists anymore so it doesn't really work.

 

[The Prince L]

He's not a god. He's the god slayer.

 

[bËst^]

As far as I consider, the term "god" is reference towards player those posses the potential to win big national. For some (Hbox, M2K and Leffen) it needs a big amount of consistant gameplay and a little amount of "luck" (meaning, Armada being in a bad condition when facing M2K; M2K not being at his best against Leffen; and overally how bracket ends up)

And for now on, there is pretty much those 6 players those got the potential and therefore this funny term "smash-Gods" is nice little levelgap between them and other challengers. I would like to add Wobbles among those six, but cos he is more or less retired, I can't count him in.

Being god simply means, than eventhought you have mediocore results when compared to other gods (namely Hbox and M2K), they still posses the threat and in case none of the other gods is no presented in a tournament, that one God most likely will take it.

So I see Leffen as a "God". He is next level player and posseses much bigger chances to win a national than people behind him: Namely Hax ans Axe.

 

[AirFair]

I think If m2k took control of his emotions, he could start dominating hard again.

 

[menotyou135]

TBH, I don't even think Hungrybox is a god anymore. He just hasn't done well enough this year. I definitely wouldn't consider Leffen a god. (I'm from florida and Hbox is my favorite player so it isn't anti-hbox bias)

Also Hbox has been doing much better for much longer and he is arguably not a god. Leffen needs to place better more consistently to be a god.

Winning one series against a mango on jetlag/Pal after Mango has 4 stocked him twice this year without those factors does not make leffen a god. It makes him able to beat a weakened Mango who isn't on the top of his game.

 

[R-Moeny]

TBH, I don't even think Hungrybox is a god anymore. He just hasn't done well enough this year. I definitely wouldn't consider Leffen a god. (I'm from florida and Hbox is my favorite player so it isn't anti-hbox bias)

Also Hbox has been doing much better for much longer and he is arguably not a god. Leffen needs to place better more consistently to be a god.

Winning one series against a mango on jetlag/Pal after Mango has 4 stocked him twice this year without those factors does not make leffen a god. It makes him able to beat a weakened Mango who isn't on the top of his game.

He did get second at evo which is notable

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Leffen was using a Weakened fox. Mang0 was using falco, and when he used fox during BEAST 5, he got whooped. even with NTSC fox, I doubt he would win against Armada in that set.

though as they said in the interview at the end, mang0 played a little worse than usual. because judging by how armada (and maybe leffen) was playing, I think he still wouldn't have won the tournament

 

[Massive]

You don't have to be the best god to be a god.
There just needs to be a sizable (seemingly insurmountable) skill gap between you and most other players.

That's why the top 5/6 is a good analogy, because those few players are consistently that much better than most other players.

They don't need to be the best god to still be a god, that's why there's a pantheon to begin with.

 

[menotyou135]

He did get second at evo which is notable

And leffen got first at beast 5.

I would personally call Leffen and Hungrybox titans instead of gods (unless Hbox goes back to his previous performance level and/or leffen consistently starts placing top 4)

 

[JackSSB]

I wouldn't call him a god yet, B.E.A.S.T V was definitely a good run for Leffen, but he only played a handful of really good players besides Mango and Armada. Mango had jetlag and just looked completely drained and tired, and Armada was running the Tourney all weekend, not to mention he had been organizing and planning it for weeks earlier. Leffen had a copious amount of hours to practice for Beast and I really think Mango and Armada just weren't ready. But I digress, Leffen certainly fits in at 6th. If he can beat Armada, HBox, Mango, M2K and PP at Apex, then it's safe to say he made me eat my words about not being a god. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[SomethingRaven]

"There will be no more gods. Not Leffen, not Hax, not Wobbles, not Axe or Colbol or Lucky. None of these very deserving players will ever be one of the gods.

The gods are, unequivocally, M2K, Mango, Hbox, Armada, and PPMD. "5 gods" is much, much more a way of referring to a period of Melee history than it is just referring to the 5 top players at that time. The 5 of them together dominated the scene for years and years, consistently placing high, and losing only really to each other. More importantly, they revolutionized their respective characters and even more importantly, brought us easilymany of the hypest and most memorable moments in Smash history. They were the hype that dragged Melee out from Brawl's shadow and back into the spotlight.

Aside from arguably Ken himself (and this could go either way), no-one has had a bigger impact on the metagame, the community, and the development of the scene than the 5 gods. They've earned their title. It's theirs forever.

The Age of the 5 Gods seems like it's nearly over, if it isn't already. Let the next era begin, and let the players that define it carve their own names in the rock."
These aren't my words. It's from /u/EVpeace from a reddit post.
I used to think Leffen was an upcoming god but after reading this I agree with EVpeace 100%!

 

[anikom15]

Gods do not exist lol. These are just people who are really good at melee and I'd say Leffen is pretty good at melee. Can do wavedashes and stuff.

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, I would say that Leffen being on par with the Gods is more like the realization of this new era of smash (the "platinum age" so to speak) rather than him just joining their ranks.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

I think If m2k took control of his emotions, he could start dominating hard again.

same could be said about Kevin, so I think that's silly to say. Mental Game is apart of the game.

Wobbles/Leffen are the closest to steal a crown I think. I think Wobbles is closer, but Leffen is a villain so everyone eats it up.

 

[MOHadam]

Wobbles/Leffen are the closest to steal a crown I think. I think Wobbles is closer, but Leffen is a villain so everyone eats it up.

Wobbles is pretty much semi-retired though and hardly goes to any more events. Hes a good player for sure, but even when he does attend major tournaments he doesnt place first or second ( bar evo 2013).

 

[Varist]

It's like you guys didn't even watch the games. Mango was 2-3 punishes from beating Leffen in that set, honestly Leffen barely made it out of that set alive and only because of the huge counterpick advantage he had due to Mango's SDs.

It sounds like he's johning, but if you watch the game closely and understand it, Mango was missing some easy stuff that he should not have missed being Mango. I'm glad Leffen won because it's doing more for his career than losing would have done for Mango's but what I don't like seeing is people proclaiming that he's transcended to some new level just because Mango played badly.

 

[Crawfiish]

It's like you guys didn't even watch the games. Mango was 2-3 punishes from beating Leffen in that set, honestly Leffen barely made it out of that set alive and only because of the huge counterpick advantage he had due to Mango's SDs..

A win is a win. Your win isn't suddenly worth two wins because you 4-stocked someone, and neither is it a loss because "it was close".

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

A win is a win. Your win isn't suddenly worth two wins because you 4-stocked someone, and neither is it a loss because "it was close".

A more convincing win is worth more than a less convincing one. A win where the opponent visibly played bad means less to everyone, as it should. Do you not think players like M2K or Armada 8 stocking people in pools shows a bigger gap at the time than them 2-0ing another player, but the other player takes them to last stock? While yes, the best is supposed to win the tournament, you can only tell how good they are from the performance of their opponents if they're playing well, or how severely they outperform them, even if this has a bit of a snowballing effect in a game like Melee.

 

[Jarret]

I like to think of him as Kratos...

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

To beat a god you have to beat the first god, Mew2King. Enough said. All the other "gods" had to do it. M2K had to beat the "kings" of the game. Until leffen has a victory, even if it comes in a best of one, like mango versus m2k, it will count. The victory over M2k is vital to becoming a god but it does not have to be a commading win

 

[dfrogman]

god is dead
leffen and wobbles have killed him

 

[MOHadam]

"there are no top 5 anymore, its top 6. I respect leffen's skill." -Mew2King

its m2k confirmed guys. thread is as good as closed.


Kappa

 

[Nessafile]

Mango said in an interview that he would not consider leffen as a part of the top 5 group until he was able to take a major American tournament where most of the current top 5 are present. As far as im aware this has not happened yet, so unless Leffen wins Apex 2015 or another major later in the year he will not be considered a "god" of melee.

Also time is a factor with the melee top 5. All of them have been dominating the game for years and have proven time and time again that the only people who have the ability to challenge them consistently are other members of the top 5.

Leffen just doesnt have the ressume that the other top 5 have. Granted he is an amazing player and is definitely right under the top 5. Give him another year, maybe a little less, and melee might just have a sixth top player.

So because Mango said that, Leffen isn't as good as the top 5 unless he wins a american major? lol ok

 

[MOHadam]

So because Mango said that, Leffen isn't as good as the top 5 unless he wins a american major? lol ok

I quoted what mango said because he is currently the best melee player in the world and his word has weight to it lol. I never said that leffen wasnt as good as the top 5 either...i said that he doesnt have the resumé that they do, and that he isnt as time proven as the rest of the 5 are.

Also i said that Leffen wouldnt be considered a "god" of melee until he "won an american major with most of the top 5 in attendance." That doesnt mean i dont consider him a top player..because i do, he is obviously a top player. I dont know if he is top 5 yet though. Still i do not doubt Leffen. The guy is amazing at melee and has the drive needed to become the best.

What i think a lot of people are missing is that the 5 "gods" of melee are so called not only because of their skill and top rankings but because they have all dominated the game for years consistently placing high in all tournaments they attend. Mango, Armada, M2k, PPMD (Kreygasm), and Hbox have all proven themselves year after year to be top players. Leffen has only just begun to show his dominance, so i think that people are reluctant to call him a god of melee because he isnt as time proven as the other 5.

 

[Nessafile]

I quoted what mango said because he is currently the best melee player in the world and his word has weight to it lol. I never said that leffen wasnt as good as the top 5 either...i said that he doesnt have the resumé that they do, and that he isnt as time proven as the rest of the 5 are.

Also i said that Leffen wouldnt be considered a "god" of melee until he "won an american major with most of the top 5 in attendance." That doesnt mean i dont consider him a top player..because i do, he is obviously a top player. I dont know if he is top 5 yet though. Still i do not doubt Leffen. The guy is amazing at melee and has the drive needed to become the best.

What i think a lot of people are missing is that the 5 "gods" of melee are so called not only because of their skill and top rankings but because they have all dominated the game for years consistently placing high in all tournaments they attend. Mango, Armada, M2k, PPMD (Kreygasm), and Hbox have all proven themselves year after year to be top players. Leffen has only just begun to show his dominance, so i think that people are reluctant to call him a god of melee because he isnt as time proven as the other 5.

I respect this, I also didn't mean that in a way that I thought you didn't think Leffen wasn't a top player.
Basically I thought you were some mango meat rider at first. (LOL) But ya, I got bodied

 

[menotyou135]

I mean, all of the Gods have beaten all the other gods and gotten first in tournaments where other gods were present.

Leffen has not.

 

[Jarret]

I don't think that just because you beat the gods once, you should be one. Compare Hbox's, Armada's, Mango's, PPMD's, and M2K's records against the other gods. Then compare it to leffen.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

At paragon 2015, something like Rock, Paper, Scissors went around.

Leffen could beat HBox, Hbox could beat M2K, M2K could beat Leffen.

If leffen gets the marth matchup (or the mew2king matchup?) down, then I think he has a shot at beating M2K

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

At paragon 2015, something like Rock, Paper, Scissors went around.

Leffen could beat HBox, Hbox could beat M2K, M2K could beat Leffen.

If leffen gets the marth matchup (or the mew2king matchup?) down, then I think he has a shot at beating M2K

Leffen almost lost to a sick Armada.
No johns, but Leffen also lost to Plup, PLUP.

 

[Crawfiish]

Leffen almost lost to a sick Armada.

Do you know what we call an "almost lost" in America?

A WIN.

I mean, all of the Gods have beaten all the other gods and gotten first in tournaments where other gods were present.

Leffen has not.

So does BEAST 5, a tournament where the two best gods were in attendance, not count?

 

[Shaq]

same could be said about Kevin, so I think that's silly to say. Mental Game is apart of the game.

Wobbles/Leffen are the closest to steal a crown I think. I think Wobbles is closer, but Leffen is a villain so everyone eats it up.

Ay yo this kid is smart.
Speakin o' Leffen and villains, somebody dun started a blog and first post is exactly about dat **** LOL.

Mad long tho (like my ****)

https://smashfts.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/world-smashing-federation-leffen-is-the-heel-we-need/

 

[KillerGum]

Edit: Sorry for the wall of text.

I don't understand how just because Leffen hasn't beat M2k, he isn't a god. It took M2k YEARS to beat Armada, and has had stints of not being able to beat both Mango and Hbox. Hbox still can't edge out Mango, and has lost to people outside the top 5 multiple times. The same goes for M2k. If Hbox and M2k are still gods, Leffen is as well. Look at his tournament placings this past year compared to the other god's:

Leffen:
Apex 2014: 4th
Beast 4: 1st
RoF 3: 1st
MLG 2014: 5th
Evo 2014: 9th
TBH 4: 3rd
DrommeLAN 4: 2nd
Beast 5: 1st
Paragon: 3rd

Keep in mind Falco and Peach soft counter fox in PAL, as well as Fox being nerfed overall, so discrediting his placings and wins because it was PAL is stupid in my opinion.

PPMD:
Apex 2014: 1st
SKTAR 3: 1st
MLG 2014: 4th
Evo 2014: 4th

Mango:
Apex 2014: 3rd
SKTAR 3: 3rd
Rom 7: 1st
GoML 2014: 1st
Super SWEET: 3rd
MLG 2014: 1st
CEO 2014: 2nd
Kings of Cali 4: 1st
Evo 2014: 1st
TBH 4: 1st
Beast 5: 3rd

Armada:
Beast 4: 2nd
RoF 3: 2nd
SKTAR 3: 4th
Super SWEET: 1st
MLG 2014: 2nd
CEO 2014: 1st
Kings of Cali 4: 2nd
Evo 2014: 3rd
TBH 4: 4th
DrommeLAN 4: 1st
Beast 5: 2nd
Paragon: 5th

Hbox:
Apex 2014: 5th
RoM 7: 3rd
GoML 2014: 2nd
MLG 2014:7th
CEO 2014: 3rd
EVO 2014: 2nd
TBH 4: 9th
Paragon: 1st

lol m2k:
Apex 2014: 2nd
RoM 7: 2nd
GoML 2014: 3rd
SKTAR 3: 2nd
Super SWEET: 2nd
MLG 2014: 3rd
CEO 2014: 4th
Kings of Cali 4: 3rd
Evo 2014: 5th
TBH 4: 2nd
DYFWI?: 13th
Paragon: 2nd

Now, let's compare Leffen's placings to those considered just outside the top tier of players:

Leffen:
Apex 2014: 4th
Beast 4: 1st
RoF 3: 1st
MLG 2014: 5th
Evo 2014: 9th
TBH 4: 3rd
DrommeLAN 4: 2nd
Beast 5: 1st
Paragon: 3rd

Axe:
Apex 2014: 9th
Super SWEET: 4th
MLG 2014: 5th
Evo 2014: 5th
TBH 4: 9th
Paragon: 7th

Hax:
Apex 2014: 17th
RoM 7: 5th
SKTAR 3: 5th
MLG 2014: 7th
Evo 2014: 13th
TBH 4: 5th

Westballz:
Apex 2014: 33rd
SKTAR 3: 5th
MLG 2014: 9th
Kings of Cali 4: 7th
Evo 2014: 13th
TBH 4: 7th
DYFWI?: 17th
Paragon: 4th

Lucky:
Apex 2014: 17th
MLG 2014: 9th
Kings of Cali 4: 4th
Evo 2014: 17th
TBH 4: 5th
DYFWI?: 4th
Paragon: 9th

It's clear that he is a tier above these players.

After Paragon, M2K said that there is no more top 5, it is now top 6. Mango said in the past that Leffen has to win a major American tournament to be considered on the top 5's level. While Leffen's lack of a first place win at a major NTSC tournament is a legitimate argument against him not being a god, M2K hasn't won anything big since TBH3 in 2013.

Ever since Leffen's disappointing placing at Evo 2014, he has leveled up both in his play and his mental toughness. He was finally able to take down Mango at Beast 5. He was able to come back and win grand finals at Beast 5 after being 4-stocked the game before. After showing complete dominance over armada's peach at Paragon, he was then able to make a 3-stock comeback on Armada's fox in game 5 after being 4-stocked and 3-stocked the games before. His tech has become very noticeably better since Evo, and his mind games, reads, and punishes are sharper than ever before.

Of course this whole argument is based off of each person's opinion, but I can't see how anyone doesn't think Leffen has broken through the barrier and made the Top 5 the Sinister 6.