Ledge-steal Bairs, and crouch/crawling data for Captain Falcon players.

[-Fatality-]

After several hours of testing and number crunching, I finished the full list! If you guys find any problems with my data, just let me know and I'll fix it! Let's start with Ledge-steal Bair data, who it works on, and how difficult to execute it is.
Mario- Works- Medium difficulty
Luigi- Works- Medium difficulty
Peach- Works- Hard difficulty
Bowser- Works- Easy difficulty
Yoshi- Works- Medium difficulty
Rosaluma- Works- Easy difficulty
Bowser Jr.-Works- Easy difficulty
Wario- Works- Medium difficulty
Donkey Kong- Works- Easy-medium difficulty
Diddy Kong- Works- Hard difficulty
Mr. Game & Watch- Works- Medium difficulty
Little Mac- Works- Easy difficulty
Link- Works- Medium difficulty
Toon Link- Works- Medium difficulty
Zelda- Works- Easy difficulty
Sheik- Works- Easy difficulty
Ganondorf- Works- Medium difficulty
Samus- Works- Medium difficulty
Zero Suit Samus- Works- Hard difficulty
Pit- Works- Easy difficulty
Palutena- Works- Easy difficulty
Marth- Works- Medium difficulty
Ike- Works- Hard difficulty
Robin- Works- Easy difficulty
Duck Hunt- Works- Easy difficulty
Kirby- Works- Hard difficulty
King DeDeDe- Works- Medium difficulty
Meta Knight- Works- Hard difficulty
Fox- Works- Easy difficulty
Falco- Works- Easy Difficulty
Pikachu- Works- Medium difficulty
Charizard- Works- Medium difficulty
Lucario- Works- Easy difficulty
Jigglypuff- Works- Hard difficulty
Greninja- Works- Medium difficulty
ROB- Works- Easy difficulty
Ness- Works- Easy difficulty
Captain Falcon- Works- Easy difficulty
Villager- Works- Medium difficulty
Olimar- Works- Easy difficulty
Wii Fit Trainer- Works- Easy difficulty
Shulk- Works- Hard difficulty
Dr. Mario- Works- Medium difficulty
Dark Pit- Works- Easy difficulty
Lucina- Works- Medium difficulty
Pac Man- Works- Medium difficulty
Mega man- Works- Medium difficulty
Sonic- Works- Medium difficulty

After testing it on every character, contrary to what I've seen some people think, Ledge-steal Bair works on every character! This is an extremely powerful edgeguarding tool for Falcon (assuming your opponent doesn't know to buffer a ledge action). Keep in mind that executing the ledge-steal is the exact same against every character. All difficulty gauges are based on how difficult it is to get near perfect ledge-steals against that character, and the assumption that you're opponent is competent and will mix up their recoveries against you where possible. I encourage you to practice this technique against the characters with "easy" difficulties if you're new to this, and then move on to the hard ones.
If the opponent buffers a ledge attack, ledge roll, or ledge jump however, you cannot trump them, this technique likely won't be useful for long because of that, which is disappointing.

Moving on, I've also tested to see what moves characters can crouch and/or crawl under.

Mario- During part of the idle animation where his head moves, can crouch under a tipper F-tilt, point blank always hits.
Luigi- Same as above.
Peach- Nothing.
Bowser- Nothing.
Yoshi- his back can crouch under F-tilt, unless you hit his head which pokes up a bit higher.
Rosaluma- Nothing.
Bowser Jr.- Nothing.
Wario- Nothing.
Donkey Kong- Nothing.
Diddy Kong- Can crawl under tipped F-tilts, Jabs, and grab, point blanks always connect.
Mr. Game & Watch- Can crouch under Jabs, F-tilt, Grabs, and U-air.
Little Mac- Nothing.
Link- Nothing.
Toon Link- Nothing.
Zelda- Nothing.
Sheik- Crouches/crawls under F-tilts, U-airs, jabs, and grabs. Jabs and grabs hit when up against Sheik.
Ganondorf- Nothing.
Samus- Nothing.
Zero Suit Samus- Can crawl under F-tilts and U-airs, F-tilt and U-air hits crouching ZSS.
Pit- Nothing.
Palutena- Nothing.
Marth- Nothing.
Ike- Nothing.
Robin- Nothing.
Duck Hunt- During lowest animation of crawling, can crouch under F-tilt, F-tilt hits crouches.
Kirby- Crouches under Jabs, F-tilts, U-airs, and grabs (except during the idle crouch animation when Kirby bobs up a bit).
King DeDeDe- Nothing.
Meta Knight- Nothing.
Fox- Nothing.
Falco- Nothing.
Pikachu- Crouches/forward crawls under F-tilts and U-airs, both hit backwards crawling Pikachu.
Charizard- Nothing.
Lucario- Back half of Crouching/crawling Lucario dodges F-tilts and jabs, both hit the head even when crouching/crawling.
Jigglypuff- Crouches under Jabs, F-tilts, Grabs, and U-airs.
Greninja- Crawls under F-tilts.
ROB- Nothing.
Ness- Crouches under F-tilts, tipped Jabs, and Uairs. F-tilt hits during idle animation when Ness moves his head.
Captain Falcon- Nothing.
Villager- Back half of crouch dodges tipped F-tilt, tipped Jabs, and tipped U-air, all 3 hit Villager's head when closer.
Olimar- Crouch dodges F-tilts, and tipped Jabs.
Wii Fit Trainer- Crouches under Jabs, F-tilts, Grabs, and U-airs, except during idle animation when she does pushups.
Shulk- Nothing.
Dr. Mario- Crouches under F-tilts and U-airs except during part of the idle animation.
Dark Pit- Nothing.
Lucina- Back half of crouch avoids U-airs, F-tilts, and Jabs, all 3 still hit Lucina's crouching head.
Pac Man- Nothing.
Mega Man- Crouches under F-tilts, Jabs, and U-airs.
Sonic- Point blank F-tilts and U-airs miss when Sonic is crouching with his back facing you.

No one can crouch downwards angled F-tilt, the examples above assume regular F-tilts.

 

[Dekar173]

So did you look at frame data/execution to determine this list, or just mess around in-game?

Also for the ledge steal/bair is the input: FF from ledge > rising bair while DIing towards opponent?

AWESOME list and I'm glad someone else is putting in work for some data collection!!!

 

[HoodedAltair]

Thanks for this mate. Very helpful

 

[BigLord]

Not diminishing the awesomeness that is this list, but how did you test this? Did you try with a human player or was it with a CPU?

 

[-Fatality-]

Not diminishing the awesomeness that is this list, but how did you test this? Did you try with a human player or was it with a CPU?

I figured it all out by myself with a second controller, was kinda tricky, but with some effort I managed!

So did you look at frame data/execution to determine this list, or just mess around in-game?

Also for the ledge steal/bair is the input: FF from ledge > rising bair while DIing towards opponent?

AWESOME list and I'm glad someone else is putting in work for some data collection!!!

I just messed around with all this in-game, input is basically that, but you need to make sure to grab the ledge just barely after they do, or they might be able to escape the Bair, being super close makes it so the ledge grab lag ends about the same time they're forced off the ledge, which is how you can do this to anyone.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

do you think you can post a video of this, I've tried it out on 3ds but it's pretty hard without c stick. how close are you when you trump the ledge from them?

I always thought that the person getting trumped was at frame advantage because when you grab the edge from the stage you have to wait out the invincibility frames.

If what you say is truth then I appreciate it, I just want to see video evidence since I don't actually own a WiiU

 

[-Fatality-]

do you think you can post a video of this, I've tried it out on 3ds but it's pretty hard without c stick. how close are you when you trump the ledge from them?

I always thought that the person getting trumped was at frame advantage because when you grab the edge from the stage you have to wait out the invincibility frames.

If what you say is truth then I appreciate it, I just want to see video evidence since I don't actually own a WiiU

Basically, when you trump someone at the ledge, they're put into a stunned animation where they can't do ANYTHING for a decent amount of time, and if you make sure to grab the ledge just barely after they grab it, then that gives you a decent window of time to fall off the ledge and double-jump Bair them, guaranteed.
I used this very effectively in some tournament matches last night, and a ledge-steal Bair was also how I won the last match of Grand Finals! I'll post the vids in the Falcon video thread when they're ready, tag you, and give a time frame of specific moments where I used it to great effect.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

Basically, when you trump someone at the ledge, they're put into a stunned animation where they can't do ANYTHING for a decent amount of time, and if you make sure to grab the ledge just barely after they grab it, then that gives you a decent window of time to fall off the ledge and double-jump Bair them, guaranteed.
I used this very effectively in some tournament matches last night, and a ledge-steal Bair was also how I won the last match of Grand Finals! I'll post the vids in the Falcon video thread when they're ready, tag you, and give a time frame of specific moments where I used it to great effect.

Cool that'd be great. I'm glad you're out there putting in that work for falcon in this game, are you coming to paragon in FL?

 

[-Fatality-]

Cool that'd be great. I'm glad you're out there putting in that work for falcon in this game, are you coming to paragon in FL?

I plan to, currently trying to find someone to house with by the venue atm, every other arrangement has been made. Hotel would be too expensive especially since I can only (maybe) barely afford going to Apex as it is.

 

[Dekar173]

Basically, when you trump someone at the ledge, they're put into a stunned animation where they can't do ANYTHING for a decent amount of time, and if you make sure to grab the ledge just barely after they grab it, then that gives you a decent window of time to fall off the ledge and double-jump Bair them, guaranteed.
I used this very effectively in some tournament matches last night, and a ledge-steal Bair was also how I won the last match of Grand Finals! I'll post the vids in the Falcon video thread when they're ready, tag you, and give a time frame of specific moments where I used it to great effect.

Good stuff man! I was messing with it incorrectly then- since I don't have anyone who will practice/test stuff with me I was just putting a 2nd player on the ledge, then grabbing my other controller and trumping/testing haha.

Good find. Bair is SO insanely good for a kill move/edgeguard that this is really going to put Falcon over the top imo.



BTW remember that trumping counts as a form of interaction, so when they regrab the ledge THEY GET REFRESHED INVULNERABILITY so for example slow trump > return to stage for utilt won't actually work.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

I plan to, currently trying to find someone to house with by the venue atm, every other arrangement has been made. Hotel would be too expensive especially since I can only (maybe) barely afford going to Apex as it is.

Cool, well I hope you can find some housing, I can't house anyone at my parents house I really want to play some seriouslys with you at paragon.

 

[-Fatality-]

BTW remember that trumping counts as a form of interaction, so when they regrab the ledge THEY GET REFRESHED INVULNERABILITY so for example slow trump > return to stage for utilt won't actually work.

Actually, that's incorrect, after a trump, the next time they grab the ledge they won't have any invincibility, the reason U-tilt still fails to hit them is because the attack lands flatly along the ground, and characters on the ledge are just ever so slightly below that. But because they don't have invincibility after a trump, you can Dair them to their death the next time they grab the ledge, which is fantastic!

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

So, I'm still confused as to what degree this is guaranteed (i.e. if they're getting hit by bair during the frames after being trumped where they can't do anything) or if it's a read.

 

[-Fatality-]

So, I'm still confused as to what degree this is guaranteed (i.e. if they're getting hit by bair during the frames after being trumped where they can't do anything) or if it's a read.

If you're ledge grab timing is on-point, and you're quick about the Bair, it's guaranteed, and they can't do ANYTHING.
At high percents, guaranteed Bairs are nice to have

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If the opponent buffers a Ledge Jump, Ledge Roll, or Ledge Attack, you cannot trump them, ever.

 

[-Fatality-]

If the opponent buffers a Ledge Jump, Ledge Roll, or Ledge Attack, you cannot trump them, ever.

That sucks, guess I'll edit the page accordingly.

 

[BigLord]

It's still not so bad. It means that this "technique" is just not flawless. If the opponent is caught by surprise, he's toast.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You mean if the opponent doesn't know about this. It's really easy to tell if someone is coming for the edge, and since they don't get thrown off for the first ~fifteen frames no matter what (even if you grab it a frame after the opponent), they can simply react if you're trying to get the absolute best frame advantage for this.

It really is a lose-lose situation. Either you grab it close to the end of their fifteen frames and you're stuck on the ledge too long to punish or you grab it early and they have time to react into a bufferable action.

 

[BigLord]

Fifteen frames?! Darn it, now I can see why it is lose-lose :\ the only ones who aren't going to react in time are those with lag, probably (lol For Glory).

 

[-Fatality-]

This is extremely unfortunate, makes so many recoveries SO much more free, and edgeguarding in general a fair bit less interesting I guess the move here is to just abuse it against the peeps who don't know about it while we still can. Will edit post post accordingly.

 

[Dekar173]

Actually, that's incorrect, after a trump, the next time they grab the ledge they won't have any invincibility, the reason U-tilt still fails to hit them is because the attack lands flatly along the ground, and characters on the ledge are just ever so slightly below that. But because they don't have invincibility after a trump, you can Dair them to their death the next time they grab the ledge, which is fantastic!

No, go test it.