Ledge & Bananna Tricks Information

Scatz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,593
Location
ATL, GA
#1
Unfortunately, I couldn't find 2 certain posts that were made on two videos concering Yoshi's ledge tricks and bananna options. So, I got on my old account and posting this for everyone to see. Major thanks to Silent Beast for translating these.

Links to the videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb2K6Lo7l7s (Bananna Tricks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmVMOij6HdM&feature=related (Ledge Tricks)


This is quote a lot of information so I'm collapsing these.

This is the ledge information.
Silent Beast said:
What follows is my translation sisi's original post from smacom. Direct translations are italicized and in quotes, while any additional notes are added after the direct quotes. I've numbered his actions/explanations as L1, L2, L3, etc. to more easily distinguish between the things he does in this video and the things he does in the banana video (B1, B2, B3, etc.).

---

Ledge Video:
link (you will need an account to read this): http://smacom.so-netsns.jp/?m=pc&a=p...omment_count=6

L1. Ledge DR waveland.
"X-->control stick diagonal up/right-->C-stick down. It might be safer to input bair, instead of dair, in case you mistime the DR. If you fair, you're often open when you land [unsure about this sentence]. Uair and nair will be mentioned later.

DR waveland off ledge.

L2. DRWL, pivot grab.
"My hands got tired doing this."

:laugh:

L3. DRWL, dtilt.
"I'm crawldashing while doing this. Doing dtilt while retreating slightly. If you crouch-->dtilt, you can slide forward while dtilting."

L4. DRWL, spotdodge.
"If you do it fast enough, you can spotdodge while still invincible. I wasn't getting it right in the video, though lol."

Note: Scatz's frame testing has debunked this claim. Specific frame data:

Originally Posted by Scatz
Waveland restrictions: Cannot input an perfect waveland due to having aerial lag. Only possible on frame 15 (jump) and frame 16 (attack)

Waveland Vunerability: 6 frames (can move on the 7th frame)

Spotdodge: 8 frames (9th frame invincible)
Front & Back roll: 10 frames (11th frame invincible)
L5. Super Jump.
"Jumps so hiiiiiigh. Like in [L4], if you input this fast enough, you can start you airdodge while still invincible."

Note: Scatz's frame testing has also debunked this claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatz
Airdodge Restrictions: None. Can input jump immediately on frame 14 ad airdodge on frame 15

Airdodge vunerability: 4 frames (5th frame invincible)

Quick review of the Super Jump:

Originally Posted by Yikarur
the timing is theoretically strange. If you hit the ground while double jumping you aren't able to perform the super jump. Thats because of some odd mechanic which prevents your double jump to be cancelled in a spezific height. You have a timing window of about 3 Frames over the ground for the double jump and depending on the frame you jumped you have a 1-3 Frame Window to Airdodge the super jump.
we can define a rule, let me thing about it.
If you are 3 Frames over the ground you have 3 Frames to airdodge
If you are 2 Frames over the ground you have 1 frame to airdodge
If you are 1 Frame over the ground you can't cancel the jump into an airdodge except if you buffer it from the jump start-up.
L6. DRWL, DJC nair ver.
"Control stick diagonal up-->A. This is rather hard. I accidentally faired in my second attempt lol."

L7. DRWL, DJC uair ver.
"This should be at about the same difficulty level as [L1], but I screwed this up the second time lolol. If you're going to do this, you might as well just drop down, DJ and uair."

L8. DJC egg lay.
"In place and advancing. If you do it too quickly in place, you'll miss the stage."

L9. DRWL, dash grab.
"I forgot to mention this with all the DRWL stuff. For use against enemies that are far away and not expecting anything.

L10. Jump, egg roll.
"No bounce. It might be easier to do it if you DJC the egg roll. If you hit B too soon, you fall off."

L11. Ledgedrop-->Ledgedrop.
"Fluke occurence. Is that what it's called? I couldn't repeat it twice in a row lol."

He doesn't really give an explanation.

L12. Ledgedrop, DJ, uair.
"Control stick left-->control stick right/up-->C-stick up. Like what Olimar does."

L13. Ledgedrop, DJ, fair.
"Hidden by the caption. I'm fairing. If you try hard, you can land on the stage. I tried hard the second time."

L14. Ledgedrop, DJAD.
"Hidden by captions again lololol. This time I'm airdodging. It's pretty useless."

L15. Drop, DJ backward, B-reversed egg lay.
"If you egg lay too soon, you will fall."

L16.Drop, DJ backward, B-reversed egg toss.
"[Explanation of the terminology he chose.] Doing the same thing as in [L15]. ECEing too much might throw off your timing and kill you."

L17. Drop, DJ, bair, FF.
"Hold down on the control stick-->X-->C-stick back to get the FF. I didn't show it in the video, but if you buffer an airdodge, it cancels the FF."

L18. Drop, DJ, egg toss.
"Looks like normal ECE, but these are the 6th-9th eggs. I cut the first 5 eggs from the video."

L19. Drop, DJ+down B, C-stick up.
"If you input C-stick up immediately after down-B, you get a canceled down-B. You can also do it by hitting down-B and restoring the control stick back to its neutral position, but this is unreliable...[note: I'm unsure about the "this is unreliable" part]...I considered cheating by setting C-stick to specials, but I worked on holding the controller differently."

This works. I just tested it out in Training Mode and got like 4 times in a row. You have to rearrange your right hand a bit to get it, but it works. I have the Y-B-C-stick setup, with R set to jump, so I had my right hand positioned with my middle finger on R, the side of my knuckle on my index finger on X, and my thumb on C-stick. I'd drop down, DJ with R, hit down-X (B) with my knuckle, and immediately hit up on the C-stick. I'm quite sure I got this from inputting up on the C-stick, and not from letting go of the control stick.

Originally Posted by Scatz
Confirming that the C-stick up gimmick for canceling the ledge works. Seems like it's a 1 frame opening too (I would expect no less since the control stick has to be 1 frame also), but if you use the Cstick for doing it, you can leave the control stick down (sometimes you'll get an upB if you time the C-stick with the B button).
L20. Drop, DJ, egg toss.
"Diagonal up/forward on control stick. Has to be 1st/2nd egg to work; 3rd egg shouldn't have enough of a boost. Probably."

L21. Drop, B-reversed egg toss.
"Control stick back-->control stick back/up+B-->control stick right. For those of you who think that #20 pushes Yoshi too far in front. However, you need the first egg to make it back onto the stage."

L22. Drop, control stick right, DJ, regrab.
"Z仕込み [I'm not sure what he means by this]-->C-stick left-->control stick right-->X . As you can see, if you screw up, you die."
This is the bananna information
Silent Beast said:
in the ledge video blog translation, I will translate all of his explanations, for the sake of completeness. Unlike in the other translations, for these translations, I'm actually going to translate all of his comments, rather than just parts. I may go back and fully translate the other one at a later time.

Banana video blog translation:
link: http://smacom.so-netsns.jp/?m=pc&a=p...iary_id=315294
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb2K6Lo7l7s

B1. DR pickup.
"The DR pickup. [Shows DR input.] In the video, I ran backwards after picking the banana up, but you can just throw it too. The throw is, however, (probably) slower than the throw using the SJR pickup method, which will be covered later."

B2. DR pickup, egg lay.
"Simply egg lay after DR pickup. It's cool because you can't see the pickup animation by using DR. You can eat a Diddy that's expecting a dash attack and is trying to hide behind a banana. It's hard to tell, but I retreated a bit with the second one. (If you jump diagonally, you can retreat it. However, there's a tendency to turn around when you try to retreat the egg lay, so it's pretty hard. This took 4 takes.)"

B3. DR pickup, dtilt.
"Input dtilt by hitting C-stick down. Right after landing, being able to dtilt with the C-stick makes it nice and easy. When trying to dtilt while holding a banana, crawling is normally necessary."

B4. Reverse DR pickup.
"As seen in the video. The first difficult input. Control stick up-->control stick left+X+A."

This is not difficult with Y-B-C-stick.

B5. SJR pickup (jump, DJAD).
"Input tap jump-->X+R. Looks normal, doesn't it? lol I'll have a sort of SJR series over the next few tricks. SJR pickup/item toss input is pretty hard, however, so I think knowing the DR pickup/smash item toss is plenty...lol"

Does anyone have any idea what "SJR" stands for?

B6. SJR pickup, banana toss.
"Control stick up-->X+R-->(control stick right+)A. This is the SJR banana toss that I was referring to in #1. The second one is a smash throw, hence the "control stick right+A." Of course, you can also use the C-stick."

B7. SJR pickup, banana toss.
"The reverse of #6. The second difficult input. I screwed up the first attempt. I was unable to do the smash throw the second time. It's hard to smash throw when using control stick up-->control stick left+X+R-->A."

B8. SJR pickup, banana toss.
"Retreated version of #6. [Crossed-out incorrect directions.] In the video, I do control stick diagonal left/up-->X+R-->control stick right+A."

B9. DACUS.
"While it looks like Yoshi picks the banana while usmashing, it's actually the DA that picks it up. Yoshi's DACUS doesn't slide at all, so I'm not sure what to make of this move lol. [Shows DACUS input.]"

B10. SH AD-cancel banana toss.
"X+R-->A. For the last throw, I used C-stick, instead of A. Yoshi jumps around repeatedly. Of course, you can also full hop."

B11. SJ pickup, DJC banana toss.
"X-->Z-->control stick diagonally up+C-stick. The Z input must be buffered, so the timing is hard. It's also hard to DJ with the control stick on a diagonal (esp. diagonally up/left). [Reminder: tap jump] The third difficult input.

B12. Landing AD banana toss.
"Just before landing, input R+C-stick right. You can input A instead of using the C-stick, but to get a smash throw, it's easier to use the C-stick. I sneaked a DJC into the second toss lol."

B13. Jump-cancel banana toss.
"I guess that's what you'd call it. Though I like 'Slide Toss.' Since Yoshi can't glide toss, this is how to throw a banana while grounded or something. Simple."

He doesn't say what the input is, but I'm guessing this is the DJC item toss.

B14. DACIT up toss.
"[Shows DACIT input for tossing banana up] Not especially helpful if you throw it up. WAOH. WAOH."

:laugh: Imitating Yoshi sounds is amusing.

B15. DACIT forward/back toss.
"[Shows DACIT input for tossing banana forward/backward] (Credits to Inose) Like #13 but with improved distance. If you input C-stick down too soon, you just throw the banana downward."

B16. Back jump turn-around toss, DJAD-cancel toss (SJR toss?).
"Rather pointless double banana toss. From here on, it will be more ネタ [idk what that means]. What's annoying is that the turn-around is necessary.

B17. Back jump turn-around toss, nair pickup, FF.
"As the name says. As in the video, you can also do it from a full hop. Of course, you don't have to use nair to catch the banana, and, though I didn't do it in the video, you can also input a DJC."

B18. DJC banana toss.
"Um, this already appeared in #11 lol. I'm simply inputting a DJ+banana toss with X+A."

B19. DJC banana toss, dash, DR pickup.
"You should be able to catch the banana while in the air before landing. Just picking it up with DR after landing lol."

B20. DJC banana toss, dash, DA.
"In this one, I'm catching the banana before it lands! It's pretty useless though lol. After throwing a banana, it seems like Yoshi tends to pick up the banana before it lands."

B21. DJC banana toss, egg toss.
"I noticed that if I throw an egg, I land right on the banana lol. The first time, I just pick the banana up with dair, but the second time, I use the landing AD banana toss in #12."

B22. DJC banana toss, grounded action.
"For use when you want a grounded move. Since you can still egg lay while holding a banana, it might not be worth the trouble to pivot grab."

B23. DJC banana toss, item catch.
"Banana catch with dair, bair, or AD seems good. I actually wanted to get a better angle with the DJ while facing Diddy, but I couldn't try hard enough. Maybe as a feint? lol"

B24. Aerials while holding a banana.
"Credit to Inose. If you buffer it, you can do an aerial while holding a banana. In the video, I only showed fair and nair, but you can also do an aerial after uair and dair. You cannot do it after a bair [I think].

B25. Banana toss OoS.
"C-stick to the right while holding down shield. Extremely useful."

B26. Dash pivot cancel(?).
"While pivoting, hold down Z. This lets you fsmash with the C-stick. It just depends on which direction you can fsmash [? I don't quite understand this sentence]...lol. Oh, right, you can do it in either direction if [the control stick is?] neutral."

B27. Heavy armor catch.
"Take the hit with heavy armor and catch it! That's it! Unless you DJ straight up, it's hard to do."

B28. Air throw
"If you throw the banana down right before you land, for some reason, the banana isn't thrown. I got it 100% of the time when I SH fair [buffer it?]-->DJ+down toss (credits to Inose). The second time, I did a DJC+down toss and was lucky to get it. I couldn't get it the third time.

B29. Jump-cancel throw (slide toss), falling egg lay
"If you maintain your momentum, you can do a falling special off the ledge. This means that egg toss is also possible.

B30. SJR loop
"ネタ。 Timing input for A is a little difficult. Towards the end, I screwed up and didn't drop the banana."

B31. Low-altitude DJC item toss, nair
"Um, yeah, I screwed this one up too. The banana is supposed to hit Diddy, which leads into the nair, but I deleted the replay when I did this correctly. I made it look like I'm showing a combo lol."

B32. Item drop, rising aerial
"Example of dropping a banana and catching it. Like I said in #24, bair-->bair doesn't work, so if you drop the item again, you have to throw it."

I'm not sure what he means by "bair-->bair doesn't work", since he does 2 bairs in a row in the video.

B33. DRWL pickup off ledge
"From there I 匍匐 [crawl dash?], dtilt, DACIT, dthrow. I added this one since I wanted to show something off of the ledge."
Both are extremely useful, but I find the ledge tricks to immediately help us since we're all limited in what we do from there (trying to reach the ledge also applies).
 

Sharky

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
4,781
Location
Syracuse, NY
#3
judging by the dash you often do right out of drwl, I'm assuming you use b-> c-stick to do it. Lately I've started using it along with my usual Y->A method and I've noticed a lot of that. I've decided I'm going to use b->c whenever I want to dash and y->a when I want to do something standing or pivot grab or something like that. The instant dash is super useful, though imo. =D

edit: only watched the first minute or so, so far lol. Another small note use a light toss when you wb eggtoss at the start instead of a hard one, it would have made a perfect setup on mk and gives you great cover, besides. =)
 

Scatz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,593
Location
ATL, GA
#4
I already do alot of these ledge options in game.
Just I either don't win or when I do it's never recorded, possibly 90% of my matches are losses.
But anyways, here's the ledge stuff. Not sure if there's much in the MK match, but the Diddy Kong match I know there is... 5:09 I think?
http://www.twitch.tv/charropunks/b/290038850
While you use them, you also use the old options that used to work in the past. Stuff like DJAD or DJ+ATK doesn't work nearly as well as before. DJAD's reward is giving us either a chance to pass an overly aggressive opponent, or leaving us high enough in the air to use B-reverse Egglay mixups (or DownB) to land. The reward gets negated when we DJAD from under the stage, where the apex of the DJAD is still extremely close to the ground. When it's close to the ground, characters are able to stay in a zone where going past them means grab (or atk) and moving back to the ledge can mean death in some cases or getting gimped.

DJ+ATK doesn't get hammered as bad, but most moves outrange. Plus, we use it in a fashion like, "I'm not going to space this move so it better poke his shield." It's not often that we space the move, and since it's been our main recovery tool, it becomes a stale option since we don't use other mixups to prevent it becoming stale.

Also, the new options are so rarely used that we don't even have a clean understanding of where/when to use them. I've tried before going back to college and I've gotten punished for it since it's not correctly applied.
 
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