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LBGT - It's Pretty Rad

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May 3, 2009
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No, LBGT does not stand for "Lesbian Bisexual Gay Transexual". It stands for

Let's Buffer Glide Tosses

and this thread is basically going to be me telling you about buffering your glide tosses, how to do it, and why. Yep.



1) The Basics

Terminology and Notation

When you see an "F" either preceding or succeeding a number, know that that "F" means "frame" if it precedes, or "frames" if it succeeds. Examples: "Input ROFLCopter on F32 (frame 32) of a short hop to execute a ROFLCopter groundboost." "The strong, initial hitbox of Fair lasts 2F (2 frames.)"


What's "Buffering?"

Simply put, buffering is inputting an action while near the end of another to have the inputted, or buffered, action be executed as soon as possible. Now, if you want to get all technical about it (and even if you don't, too bad), to buffer you must input your desired buffers within 10F of the move's Allow Interrupt (Notice I said "Allow Interrupt" instead of IASA. This is because not all moves have IASA. IASA is being able to interrupt a move before its animation ends, and some moves cannot be interrupted before the animation ends.)


What is a Glide Toss?

A glide toss is just what it sounds like: tossing an item while gliding across the ground.

To perform a glide toss, simply press a button that will register an item "release". So, with the standard control scheme, you can either press "A", "Z", "A"/"Z" + a direction on the analogue stick, or any C-Stick Direction in the initial frames of your roll.



2) Glide Tossing In Depth

Glide Toss Values and Properties

All characters except Link and Toon Link can glide toss (hell if I know why), and the distance and speed their glide tosses grant are determined by the individual character's traction value and their rolls' initial velocity.

When to Input that Item Release Command

For ROB, this would be any of the first 4F of a roll. However, as far as I can tell, the velocity of a roll decays as the frames pass by, so inputting an item release on F1 of your roll would give you the longest possible slide for your glide toss. Inputting the item release on any of the following 3F gives you a sub-optimal slide. To put this in perspective, long slide = half of Battlefield and then some. Short slide = from the stage edge to one of the glowing circles.



3) Buffering Your Glide Tosses

The Inputs

This is really easy. During a buffer window, input 4/6 + shield, then C-Stick + a direction/Z/Z + a direction/A/A + a direction, within the 10F.

Why Should I Buffer my Glide Tosses?

As you now know, inputting an item release on F1 of your roll will give you the best possible slide, because the action's velocity is greatest at the beginning. This is the mechanic under which Falco and Shiek's BDACUSmashes work. That is, the temporary boost in forward momentum that is granted by their dash attacks is greatest on F1, then weaker the succeeding frames. However, because (for some reason or the other) dash attacks cannot be interrupted on F1, it is necessary to buffer in order to achieve those slides. To say it succinctly (tl;dr): buffering your glide tosses will guarantee you the maximum slide.

Stuff to Buffer From

So, you now know about buffering and its advantages. But what exactly should you be buffering from? Well, spotdodge is probably the first thing that comes to mind, right. Well, there are a few of other things you can buffer from. Below is a list of some with the frames buffering becomes possible and the normal Allow Interrupt frames.

Code:
[U]Action          Buffer Frame          Allow Interrupt[/U]
Spotdodge           F15                      F25

UAir Land           F12                      F22

DAir Land           F11                      F21
These are the first things I thought of, and if you'd like to know more, ask and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Also note that to buffer from aerials, you have to use UpB, execute an aerial with Z, and land (no autocancel).



4) Applications of Buffering Glide Tosses

Weak Glide Toss; Dribbling your Gyro

This is, by far, my favourite application of glide toss buffering. If you don't know what a weak glide toss is, you might know it as the "Gyro Slide" from TekaiGuy's video (a bit of text-profanity at the end, just throwing that out there). Tekai isn't completely wrong when he says it's "****ing impossible". To catch your Gyro after a weak glide toss, you literally only have that one frame in the beginning of your forward roll, the one that gives the long slide. However, as you might have already guessed, buffering makes this infinitely easier. A note: it might even be possible to buffer another weak glide toss while ROB is catching his Gyro, but I'm not too sure. I'll look into it more. Also, it would possible to buffer a weak glide toss after a Fair and landing, but the buffer window would be tight, as Fair's landing IASA starts on F12, meaning buffering is open F2.

The inputs are 4/6 + shield, return analogue stick to 5, Z/A.

Defensive Mix-Ups

I'll be honest. When talking about mix-ups, I can only think of one, defensive one. As we know, spotdodge-DSmash is a staple in ROB's gameplay. However, it, like all staples, will eventually become predictable. This means that instead of using DSmash after a spotdodge, you can buffer 4 + shield, 6 + toss to retreat as soon as possible with a long slide. Bonus: the speed of the retreat coupled with the Gyro flying away in the opposite direction creates a nice illusion where it seems the distance is increased, as it sometimes makes the camera zoom out.
 

Zwarm

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Good stuff Indigo! Just wondering, is it possible to buffer a glide toss out of picking up an item off the ground or landing with an air dodge or something? Just other possible situations where a buffered glide toss is possible besides the three you have listed.
 

Hater

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In all honesty your input description confused the hell outta me

input 4/6 + shield, then C-Stick + a direction/Z/Z + a direction/A/A + a direction, within the 10F.

I have no idea what im doin here
4/6 ? + sheild (i get sheild:p), then say c stick down within 10 frames and i buffer gt ?

If im right about the c stick which is my prefence in glide tossing what am i doin before that ie 4/6 ?
 

Claire Diviner

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Some of the info sounds like allgebra. Ahaha

Joking aside, I find this thread to be rather valuable. I assume there are no other threads or post with this kind of info, so it's my opinion to say that this thread ought to be stickied... but that's just me. :3
 
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Good stuff Indigo! Just wondering, is it possible to buffer a glide toss out of picking up an item off the ground or landing with an air dodge or something? Just other possible situations where a buffered glide toss is possible besides the three you have listed.
Picking up an item: Yes. Though you only have a 6F window to buffer; to clear up any possible confusion, actions are executed 1F after the Allow Interrupt in OSA/PSA, and contrary to popular belief, you cannot input two "uncompilable" actions on the same frame. This can all be terribly confusing, so if you want to know more on the subject, feel free to ask. But yeah, you can. F1 of picking an item up is ROB actually picking the item up; like I said, this frame is unavailable for buffering. The next 6F are open for buffering, so F7 of the item pickup animation is the last frame you can buffer. If you did buffer, your action will be executed on F8.

Item Pickup; no buffer
Item Pickup animation; buffer
Buffered action is executed

[F1] [F2][F3][F4][F5][F6][F7] [F8]

Frame color sequence to help with explaining. The fact that that action lasts less than 10F is what complicates the buffering business really.

Also, when you airdodge and hit the ground during your airdodge, ROB suffers his normal landing lag; that is, 3F. So, you could buffer, but it'd be pretty difficult.
In all honesty your input description confused the hell outta me

input 4/6 + shield, then C-Stick + a direction/Z/Z + a direction/A/A + a direction, within the 10F.

I have no idea what im doin here
4/6 ? + sheild (i get sheild:p), then say c stick down within 10 frames and i buffer gt ?

If im right about the c stick which is my prefence in glide tossing what am i doin before that ie 4/6 ?
Sorry. I thought the majority of people were familiar with number pad orientation. Basically its a method of relaying inputs adopted from the Street Fighter community.

Code:
7 8 9     ↖ ↑ ↗
4 5 6     ← • →
1 2 3     ↙ ↓ ↘
The numbers are the arrangement on a standard keyboard's number pad, and the arrows and the dot are positions on your control stick. So if I say "4", that means "left", if I say "5" that means "neutral", if I say "3" that means "lower right".

4/6 + shield = left/right + shield = forward/backward roll.

then C-Stick + a direction/Z/Z + a direction/A/A + a direction, within the 10F

If you spotdodge, the first available frame for buffering is F15, the last is F25, and the action is executed F26. 10F to buffer. C-Stick + a direction = a direction... on the C-Stick. The slashes are "or"; you can use the C-Stick to toss, or you can just press Z, or you can press Z + a direction on the analogue stick, etc. You must input a roll (4/6 + shield), then one of those buttons (or button combinations) from F15-F25 of a spotdodge (10F of buffering) to do a buffered glide toss.

Some of the info sounds like allgebra. Ahaha

Joking aside, I find this thread to be rather valuable. I assume there are no other threads or post with this kind of info, so it's my opinion to say that this thread ought to be stickied... but that's just me. :3
I think it'd be cool to have this get stickied, haha... but it's probably not going to happen. I don't have the power to sticky threads, and Sudai says he only reads the social, lol. Plus, this really doesn't cover a large enough range of information to warrant a sticky.

Anyhow, new data. It turns out you CAN buffer another weak glide toss after one. I'll illustrate this through a frame map...

Code:
F0 - input FRoll
F1 - FRoll is executed; input "A"
F2 - FRoll is cancelled into a weak glide toss
F11 - Earliest frame you can press "A" again to catch your Gyro
F23 - ROB catches the Gyro
If you input "A" to catch the Gyro F11-F21, the Gyro will be caught F23. Input on F22, it will be caught F24, input F23 catch F25, input F24 catch F26, input F25 catch F27. However, inputting on F26 result in a "false" catch; ROB starts his catching animation but the Gyro isn't in range. Inputting anything on F27 and after will just incur a standard action, i.e. pressing "A" on F27 will give you a jab. Now, I know what you must be thinking. "Blahblahblah frams blah". Well, interpreting this frame data tels us that for some reason or the other, you have more than enough frames to input a Gyro catch. 14F to be exact. This leaves little room for error.

Finally, when catching the Gyro, the first buffer frame is F8, the last frame is F18, and the action is executed F19, as per usual.
 

Sudai

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This should be put into the thread compendium and a link should be added to our advanced techs section, but not sticky worthy. <3 the effort put into it though and definitely solid advice. :]
 

-LzR-

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Damn you your post was too wide and now I gotta scroll! Well I guess I should practice this today and see what I can manage to do with it.
 

ccst

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Indigo Jeans is just too awesome for making those posts. I'm really impressed! ([Oo]
 

-LzR-

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I have trouble doing the buffered soft toss, the timing between putting the stick to neutral and the A/Z must be tight.
 
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To give you all a sort of clearer idea of what a BGT looks like, I dug up this fairly recent video of TeeVee v. Will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOuak85obB8#t=03m01s

He would've gotten the full slide had the edge not been there to stop him.

In fact, it'd be really awesome if someone could help in getting a video up. I have no Dazzle, so I can't do it myself.

LzR, it's not, you know, really easy to buffer it, but it's a lot easier compared to not buffering it. You get 9 more frames to input A. So yeah, it still is sort of tight, but it's not as hellishly difficult as it is without buffering. What I do is I input a spotdodge with L+2, then use R+6 to input the roll during the buffer window. It makes it slightly easier for me because that way I'm just working with one hand.
 

-LzR-

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All right thanks, might bother with it tomorrow again. Mastering this would add a lot to Rob's game.
 

8Bitman

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Alright so do you basically just do a normal glide toss in the middle of a side step??

CUZ THERE IS ALOT OF TECHNICAL WORDS UP IN DIS BIH!!! AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT FRAMES ARE WHAT ANDNWHEN MOVES END, so i am just going to think that you mean glide tossing while in a side step.

Am i right?
 

8Bitman

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SORRY FOR DOUBLE POST!


"""""""Defensive Mix-Ups

I'll be honest. When talking about mix-ups, I can only think of one, defensive one. As we know, spotdodge-DSmash is a staple in ROB's gameplay. However, it, like all staples, will eventually become predictable. This means that instead of using DSmash after a spotdodge, you can buffer 4 + shield, 6 + toss to retreat as soon as possible with a long slide. Bonus: the speed of the retreat coupled with the Gyro flying away in the opposite direction creates a nice illusion where it seems the distance is increased, as it sometimes makes the camera zoom out."""""""""""



What does this mean, in simpler terms? This is the main reason we would want to learn it.
 
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Basically, yeah. Glidetoss in the middle-near the end of of a sidestep. And what that means is that instead of ending a sidestep with a DSmash, try ending it with a retreating glidetoss.
 

8Bitman

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Awesome, cool thanks budz! =3

So there isn't any extra buttons that I have to press? Just timing?

Because I use a GC controller, no control modifications, I glide toss by Shield + Direction + Z = Glide toss in any direction.
 
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Anything I post is in standard GCC settings, unless otherwise stated. So yep, just the timing.
 

Mister Eric

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Basically, yeah. Glidetoss in the middle-near the end of of a sidestep. And what that means is that instead of ending a sidestep with a DSmash, try ending it with a retreating glidetoss.
but a player could simply still read through the spot dodges and punish you before you even have time for the glide toss to begin right?

idk about you guys, but people here in the MW be gettin good at eating through those spot dodges xD ... D:
 

8Bitman

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So i tried it out, indigo jeans how do YOU do it? because I tried and tried, and i couldn't do it.
 

Croissant

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Sooo, I did this before, but now I don't really have access to a wii... just wondering, could you b-reversal laser in the middle of the buffered GT while retreating to stop momentum?
 
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but a player could simply still read through the spot dodges and punish you before you even have time for the glide toss to begin right?

idk about you guys, but people here in the MW be gettin good at eating through those spot dodges xD ... D:
Yeah, it's not guaranteed, but the point is to spotdodge when you feel you'll be able to punish, right? I mean, I'm sure you won't spotdodge efficiently one hundred per cent of the time, but I don't think people are still spamming spotdodge. There will be some things that can get you through your spotdodge reliably though. First things that come to mind are MK/Snake FTilts, ZSS and Squirtle jabs, etc. Quick or "linking" stuff.

So i tried it out, indigo jeans how do YOU do it? because I tried and tried, and i couldn't do it.
Well, like I told LzR, I spotdodge using the L button, then input roll using the R button. This is one of those things that you can't really go on "autopilot" for, unless you've got a near-perfect idea of when spotdodge's buffer window comes into effect. Otherwise you might either end up inputting roll early and just tossing your Gyro, or you'll do it too late and roll will be telegraphed.

Sooo, I did this before, but now I don't really have access to a wii... just wondering, could you b-reversal laser in the middle of the buffered GT while retreating to stop momentum?
Heh, I kinda don't have access to a Wii right now either... But in my mind I guess you could, only not cancel your momentum, but reduce it. I'll check this as soon as I can and get back to you if someone else hasn't already.
 

(1UP)

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time for me to start popping my head in around here :)
just figured i'd start this up again, the gyro dribble or weak glide toss catch is pretty important imo even though its so tough

Croissant said:
Sooo, I did this before, but now I don't really have access to a wii... just wondering, could you b-reversal laser in the middle of the buffered GT while retreating to stop momentum?
yeah.
-LzR- said:
I have trouble doing the buffered soft toss, the timing between putting the stick to neutral and the A/Z must be tight.
youre not kidding, its 2 frames total for 3 actions :(- start your roll, get the stick to neutral, and then the input for the actual throw.
i spent several hours over a few days trying to find a real good way to get it right the majority of the time but came up with nothing. :mad: im fairly certain mastering this would make you change your controller config
 

(1UP)

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it'd be 5 times harder without buffering though, or if you screw up :awesome:
youre right though, at least we get a break from all the new 1-and 2-frame stuff coming out, and we can finally make it that more comforting number :)
 

T0MMY

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From what I understand Link & Toon Link do have Glide-tosses, they just don't go anywhere (due to the friction stat of the characters most likely).
Yoshi is the only character who cannot GT (because of his Shield mechanics).

This is a good video for Soft GT techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87JXA4ftMrw
 
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