The Professor Layton for Smash Ultimate support thread! See OP for where to meet us next after the boards close. Thank you for all your support!

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

sure for 3rd party characters, lesser know nintendo characters not so much

While Japanese-only first parties are still toast until further notice, at least there's still some hope for international stragglers, now that Dark Samus and K. Rool are in.

Of course, it'll still take a lot of work regardless, depending on how much DLC we're getting for this...

 

[GoodGrief741]

sure for 3rd party characters, lesser know nintendo characters not so much

*cries in Isaac*

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

On a side note, the Joker thread tends to get pretty weird detractors, especially after he got confirmed. I just can't understand how that keeps happening.

 

[GoodGrief741]

On a side note, the Joker thread tends to get pretty weird detractors, especially after he got confirmed. I just can't understand how that keeps happening.

Guilty of that myself. The only post I had on his thread before his reveal was how he was never going to happen because P5 was PS4-exclusive. And this is coming from someone for whom P5 is their favorite game of 2017.

My only explanation is that it was before PQ2 and also that he truly felt impossible. But still a ****ty thing to do.

 

[Flyboy]

Guilty of that myself. The only post I had on his thread before his reveal was how he was never going to happen because P5 was PS4-exclusive. And this is coming from someone for whom P5 is their favorite game of 2017.

My only explanation is that it was before PQ2 and also that he truly felt impossible. But still a ****ty thing to do.

As I've said before, just before his reveal we had another guy like that come in and me, Robert, and Sigran were all like "yeah dude we know". And now we have some guy mad that he isn't an assist trophy. Great

 

[GoodGrief741]

As I've said before, just before his reveal we had another guy like that come in and me, Robert, and Sigran were all like "yeah dude we know". And now we have some guy mad that he isn't an assist trophy. Great

Assist Trophy status is hell and I only wish it to my most hated enemies.

Like Piranha Plant

 

[fogbadge]

On a side note, the Joker thread tends to get pretty weird detractors, especially after he got confirmed. I just can't understand how that keeps happening.

when you say weird? i try to keep my negative opinions to myself on here (though its getting harder since my least favourite mario character was put in) i certainly wont go into any of their own threads to say stuff tough, even though i think joker is boring and the people who made him were trying to hard to make someone cool

hope we dont get to many layton detractors if he gets in, mind you they might get lost among all the positive stuff we'll be posting

 

[Curious Villager]

Okay, I decided to go full on in depth over Layton's moveset, especially after yesterday's debate at the social thread.
While the Layton fandom absolutely adores the idea of Layton joining in with his fencing prowers, the Smash community absolutely despises any characters that hold any pointy metal weapon these days...
So I'll be looking over his games and see if a nice compromise can be made.

This will probably end up being a very large post so I guess I'll put it all under a spoiler tag.

Here goes....

Spoiler

First off lets look at the general gameplay of the Layton series and how Sakurai tends to design most characters.

F-Zero for example, is a game all about high speed, high risk and high reward, this is reflected onto Captain Falcon's moveset. While he doesn't physically fight himself. His moveset does revolve around getting close to your opponents and dealing lots and heavy damage as fast as possible but with very tight windows. He is also one of the fastest runners in the game (behind Sonic of course) which also reflects his series high speed nature.

Animal Crossing is all about collecting as Sakurai stated back when Villager was first revealed. Thus his moveset reflects upon the various tools they can collect and use in their game. But most notably their neutral special. Which allows them to pocket all kinds of items and projectiles that come their way.

Duck Hunt was a game all about the Zapper peripheral that came along with the game, and being able to shoot various objects straight at the screen. Their moveset is reflected upon that, along with two other games that where compatible with the Nintendo Zapper.

These are just a few examples, for more in depth analysis on these characters plus more and how their designed, I think the best place to look for that would be the Know your Moves series done by RelaxAlax over at his youtube channel.

But back to Layton.

The Professor Layton series main core mechanics are the puzzles and brain teasers. Their often designed in such a way to make the players think close and hard about what the questions or tasks given is actually asking for. For example, the infamous mouse puzzle from Curious Village gives you a general overview of how mice breed but then tells you that you bought one mouse and then proceeds to ask you how many you would end up having after a certain amount of time has passed. The answer would be one as at the end of the day, you only bought one mouse. These sort of puzzles that are designed to make the player make quick assumptions without reading the question given carefully is a prevalent part of the Layton series.

So how would this reflect upon Layton's moveset? It should mostly revolve around mind games and making your opponent have to think ahead in terms of what you would do next. Making quick assumptions of what the Prof would do next will mostly lead to getting thrown off into a disadvantage.

So back to Layton's moveset, here are a few examples of attacks the Prof can use.

Side Smash
These two puzzles "The winning Arrow" and "One true Sword" are about you having to figure out the one real object among the number of fake ones.
One move Layton could have (Possibly most suitable for his side Smash attack) is him shooting three arrows at his opponent. However, only one of them is real and cause damage, the other two are fake and will just disappear with a poof with no damage or knockback given.
You are able to choose which of these three arrows are the real one. This would be a particularly handy tool to use for edge guarding and syking out your opponents who are trying to recover back to the stage.

Side Special
This puzzle involved you having to roll a sleep bomb through a panel maze in order to reach an open vent. One of Layton's moves can involve him shooting out a sleep bomb that can put your opponents to sleep. You will be able to navigate the bomb at 90 degree angles about 5 or 6 times each (Much like Snake's side special or Ness's up special) This way you can change its course quickly and have it hit your opponent from above, under, or the back instead of the front. This would most likely be useful against counter/reflect users, Most particularly characters like that absorb or reflect projectiles at a close window.


This are the main examples of puzzles Layton can use that reflect closely around the gameplay of his series. I'm sure there are more throughout the series history that Sakurai can use that expand further around this idea.

Other puzzles they can use are as follows.

Tether
The Grand Hall Rescue puzzle could be used as a tether recovery. Layton will swing with a candle and rope towards the ledge.

throws
His throws could have him solve a quick slide puzzle, as the opponent would then be thrown at whatever direction is open once the puzzle is complete. The picture could be the opponents Stock Icon, just like Mr. Game & Watch's throws.

Forward aerial Back aerial
Layton will launch off the fish from Last Specter. He will be able to control its angle too. It will bounce off any walls it hits

Down air
Layton would throw down the toy car from Lost Future, and will then move forward after landing. Hitting any opponents who get in the way, you can even stand on top of it momentarily. (Basically a mix between Pac Man's Fire Hydrant and the Pokeball Pokemon gogoat.)

Dash Attack
Slippery Trip is a puzzle where you have to navigate through a maze with Banana peels spread all over the place. If you walk over one, you will slip quickly towards the wall. Two ways this can be incorporated is through a dash attack where Layton will momentarily slide over a banana peel for a short bit. Might be the longest dash attack in the game too. Otherwise, this can also be a effect exclusive to Layton whenever he walks over the actual banana peel item itself.

Jab Rapid Jab
The Magnifying glass can be used as a Jab and Rapid Jab attack. Once the rapid jab finished a big red exclamation mark will show up to launch the opponent away. This is in reference to many players tapping around on the screen when looking for hidden hint coins and puzzles especially in the DS games.

Side tilt
Layton would throw an apple as the Hamster will then run after it. If any character picks up the apple or is so much as near it, the Hamster will proceed to hit the opponent with a barrage of attacks. Much like the Sable Prince Assist Trophy.

Down Tilt
The toy robot from Miracle Mask will briefly spring up. May potentially trip up the opponent too.

Up tilt ! Up Smash
His up tilt can be him finding a hint coin, whereas his up smash will spring up a red exclamation mark.

Down Smash
Layton will use the Squirrel from Azran Legacy to roll a giant nut down across the stage. The longer you hold on the attack, the faster it will go.

Layton's hand made gadgets

Down Special
The Town Catapult from Last Specter. It might be downscaled a little. But I can see it working a bit like Zelda's Phantom, to where it gets build up over time and then shoots a barrage of Rocks directly towards the direction you've set it up. Perhaps you could have Luke standing next to it and shooting it out once its ready.

Neutral Special
The Slot Machine gun from Unwound/Lost Future, can be charged up and then shoot a barrage of hint coins towards your opponent. Or it could work like Ivysaur's Neutral special but sideways.

Up Special
The handmade Flying Contraption from Eternal Diva could work very well as an up special move for Layton. If for any reason he can't have any content from the movie. Then the Hang Gliders from Curious Village and Azran Legacy can work too.

Final Smash

His Final Smash would obviously be his famous "The Culprit is you!" finger pointing scene. Its an iconic staple of the Layton series after all. For some added fanservice and hype, they can include other Layton characters to point towards the opponent alongside him such as Luke, Flora, Emmy, Katrielle, maybe even Alfendi.


This is only the tip of the iceberg and I'm sure that there is a lot more Sakurai & co can pull from for the Prof. Other examples are the Fish minigame, Toy Robot and the Squirrel. I'll update this as I find more new idea's they could use.

In terms of Layton using a weapon like a Sword or Lead Pipe. While it is an iconic part of the Prof and some of the most hype moments in his series is him going toe to toe with a fencing match with his opponents throughout the series. I feel that making him use a Sword would be a bit of a disservice towards the character and the series that he hails from as it only represents a small part of the franchise. At the very least if he does use one, it should be used very sparingly.
An alternative way this can be used as a compromise is giving Layton a Lead Pipe as an equippable item that he can use. You know how is able to choose which of the three starters he uses first at the Character Select Screen? Layton could have a Lead Pipe item next to his character portrait and you will be able to toggle the item on or off if you so wish. This would be useful for those who don't wish to play with items on, but still want Layton to use a battering weapon in battle

The way the Lead Pipe would work is essentially like how you would use any other item such as the Beam Sword or Lip's Stick. However, Layton would have the ability to use a few more moves whenever he holds any battering item rather than just for jabs, Smash attacks, forward Jabs. But also as an additional aerials, up smash and down smash. Layton would be able to throw the Lead Pipe away like any other item, if he loses it, it will respawn somewhere near him for him to pick up. Like with K.Rool's crown.

I think the reason of opting for Lead Pipe to be an equippable item is that Hershel himself, doesn't own an Sword or Lead Pipe of his own, but rather he picks up whatever battering item he finds lying around and uses it to his advantage. So making it an item feels like the most appropriate thing to do as that's essentially how items work in smash too.

Well that's what I've got for the most part. I hope this will give a bit more of a rough idea of how Hershel could be approached for Smash. I definitely don't agree with the idea that the dev's would draw a blank with him as there is definitely a lot to work with for the Prof.

Here's hoping for the best...

And hopefully the images don't break...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Okay, I decided to go full on in depth over Layton's moveset, especially after yesterday's debate at the social thread.
While the Layton fandom absolutely adores the idea of Layton joining in with his fencing prowers, the Smash community absolutely despises any characters that hold any pointy metal weapon these days...
So I'll be looking over his games and see if a nice compromise can be made.

This will probably end up being a very large post so I guess I'll put it all under a spoiler tag.

Here goes....

Spoiler

First off lets look at the general gameplay of the Layton series and how Sakurai tends to design most characters.

F-Zero for example, is a game all about high speed, high risk and high reward, this is reflected onto Captain Falcon's moveset. While he doesn't physically fight himself. His moveset does revolve around getting close to your opponents and dealing lots and heavy damage as fast as possible but with very tight windows. He is also one of the fastest runners in the game (behind Sonic of course) which also reflects his series high speed nature.

Animal Crossing is all about collecting as Sakurai stated back when Villager was first revealed. Thus his moveset reflects upon the various tools they can collect and use in their game. But most notably their neutral special. Which allows them to pocket all kinds of items and projectiles that come their way.

Duck Hunt was a game all about the Zapper peripheral that came along with the game, and being able to shoot various objects straight at the screen. Their moveset is reflected upon that, along with two other games that where compatible with the Nintendo Zapper.

These are just a few examples, for more in depth analysis on these characters plus more and how their designed, I think the best place to look for that would be the Know your Moves series done by RelaxAlax over at his youtube channel.

But back to Layton.

View attachment 228908The Professor Layton series main core mechanics are the puzzles and brain teasers. Their often designed in such a way to make the players think close and hard about what the questions or tasks given is actually asking for. For example, the infamous mouse puzzle from Curious Village gives you a general overview of how mice breed but then tells you that you bought one mouse and then proceeds to ask you how many you would end up having after a certain amount of time has passed. The answer would be one as at the end of the day, you only bought one mouse. These sort of puzzles that are designed to make the player make quick assumptions without reading the question given carefully is a prevalent part of the Layton series.

So how would this reflect upon Layton's moveset? It should mostly revolve around mind games and making your opponent have to think ahead in terms of what you would do next. Making quick assumptions of what the Prof would do next will mostly lead to getting thrown off into a disadvantage.

So back to Layton's moveset, here are a few examples of attacks the Prof can use.

View attachment 228909 View attachment 228910
Side Smash
These two puzzles "The winning Arrow" and "One true Sword" are about you having to figure out the one real object among the number of fake ones.
One move Layton could have (Possibly most suitable for his side Smash attack) is him shooting three arrows at his opponent. However, only one of them is real and cause damage, the other two are fake and will just disappear with a poof with no damage or knockback given.
You are able to choose which of these three arrows are the real one. This would be a particularly handy tool to use for edge guarding and syking out your opponents who are trying to recover back to the stage.

View attachment 228911
Side Special
This puzzle involved you having to roll a sleep bomb through a panel maze in order to reach an open vent. One of Layton's moves can involve him shooting out a sleep bomb that can put your opponents to sleep. You will be able to navigate the bomb at 90 degree angles about 5 or 6 times each (Much like Snake's side special or Ness's up special) This way you can change its course quickly and have it hit your opponent from above, under, or the back instead of the front. This would most likely be useful against counter/reflect users, Most particularly characters like that absorb or reflect projectiles at a close window.


This are the main examples of puzzles Layton can use that reflect closely around the gameplay of his series. I'm sure there are more throughout the series history that Sakurai can use that expand further around this idea.

Other puzzles they can use are as follows.

View attachment 228914
Tether
The Grand Hall Rescue puzzle could be used as a tether recovery. Layton will swing with a candle and rope towards the ledge.

View attachment 228929
throws
His throws could have him solve a quick slide puzzle, as the opponent would then be thrown at whatever direction is open once the puzzle is complete. The picture could be the opponents Stock Icon, just like Mr. Game & Watch's throws.

View attachment 228941
Forward aerial Back aerial
Layton will launch off the fish from Last Specter. He will be able to control its angle too. It will bounce off any walls it hits

View attachment 228943
Down air
Layton would throw down the toy car from Lost Future, and will then move forward after landing. Hitting any opponents who get in the way, you can even stand on top of it momentarily. (Basically a mix between Pac Man's Fire Hydrant and the Pokeball Pokemon gogoat.)

View attachment 228912
Dash Attack
Slippery Trip is a puzzle where you have to navigate through a maze with Banana peels spread all over the place. If you walk over one, you will slip quickly towards the wall. Two ways this can be incorporated is through a dash attack where Layton will momentarily slide over a banana peel for a short bit. Might be the longest dash attack in the game too. Otherwise, this can also be a effect exclusive to Layton whenever he walks over the actual banana peel item itself.

View attachment 228927
Jab Rapid Jab
The Magnifying glass can be used as a Jab and Rapid Jab attack. Once the rapid jab finished a big red exclamation mark will show up to launch the opponent away. This is in reference to many players tapping around on the screen when looking for hidden hint coins and puzzles especially in the DS games.

View attachment 228920
Side tilt
Layton would throw an apple as the Hamster will then run after it. If any character picks up the apple or is so much as near it, the Hamster will proceed to hit the opponent with a barrage of attacks. Much like the Sable Prince Assist Trophy.

View attachment 228940
Down Tilt
The toy robot from Miracle Mask will briefly spring up

View attachment 228931
Up tilt ! Up Smash
His up tilt can be him finding a hint coin, whereas his up smash will spring up a red exclamation mark.

View attachment 228935
Down Smash
Layton will use the Squirrel from Azran Legacy to roll a giant nut down across the stage. The longer you hold on the attack, the faster it will go.

Layton's hand made gadgets

View attachment 228916
Down Special
The Town Catapult from Last Specter. It might be downscaled a little. But I can see it working a bit like Zelda's Phantom, to where it gets build up over time and then shoots a barrage of Rocks directly towards the direction you've set it up. Perhaps you could have Luke standing next to it and shooting it out once its ready.

View attachment 228918
Neutral Special
The Slot Machine gun from Unwound/Lost Future, can be charged up and then shoot a barrage of hint coins towards your opponent. Or it could work like Ivysaur's Neutral special but sideways.

View attachment 228919
Up Special
The handmade Flying Contraption from Eternal Diva could work very well as an up special move for Layton. If for any reason he can't have any content from the movie. Then the Hang Gliders from Curious Village and Azran Legacy can work too.


View attachment 228928
Final Smash

His Final Smash would obviously be his famous "The Culprit is you!" finger pointing scene. Its an iconic staple of the Layton series after all. For some added fanservice and hype, they can include other Layton characters to point towards the opponent alongside him such as Luke, Flora, Emmy, Katrielle, maybe even Alfendi.


This is only the tip of the iceberg and I'm sure that there is a lot more Sakurai & co can pull from for the Prof. Other examples are the Fish minigame, Toy Robot and the Squirrel. I'll update this as I find more new idea's they could use.

In terms of Layton using a weapon like a Sword or Lead Pipe. While it is an iconic part of the Prof and some of the most hype moments in his series is him going toe to toe with a fencing match with his opponents throughout the series. I feel that making him use a Sword would be a bit of a disservice towards the character and the series that he hails from as it only represents a small part of the franchise. At the very least if he does use one, it should be used very sparingly.
An alternative way this can be used as a compromise is giving Layton a Lead Pipe as an equippable item that he can use. You know how is able to choose which of the three starters he uses first at the Character Select Screen? Layton could have a Lead Pipe item next to his character portrait and you will be able to toggle the item on or off if you so wish. This would be useful for those who don't wish to play with items on, but still want Layton to use a battering weapon in battle

The way the Lead Pipe would work is essentially like how you would use any other item such as the Beam Sword or Lip's Stick. However, Layton would have the ability to use a few more moves whenever he holds any battering item rather than just for jabs, Smash attacks, forward Jabs. But also as an additional aerials, up smash and down smash. Layton would be able to throw the Lead Pipe away like any other item, if he loses it, it will respawn somewhere near him for him to pick up. Like with K.Rool's crown.

I think the reason of opting for Lead Pipe to be an equippable item is that Hershel himself, doesn't own an Sword or Lead Pipe of his own, but rather he picks up whatever battering item he finds lying around and uses it to his advantage. So making it an item feels like the most appropriate thing to do as that's essentially how items work in smash too.

Well that's what I've got for the most part. I hope this will give a bit more of a rough idea of how Hershel could be approached for Smash. I definitely don't agree with the idea that the dev's would draw a blank with him as there is definitely a lot to work with for the Prof.

Here's hoping for the best...

And hopefully the images don't break...

Very neat moveset. I can see Layton being a very confusing character to play against, with a playstyle focused on misdirection. I agree that pushing for the idea of a swordless Layton is the way to go, to properly represent the games and to earn the least amount of scorn possible. (Even though people really shouldn't have such a huge issue with swords but whatever)

 

[MegaMarioMan9]

Okay, I decided to go full on in depth over Layton's moveset, especially after yesterday's debate at the social thread.
While the Layton fandom absolutely adores the idea of Layton joining in with his fencing prowers, the Smash community absolutely despises any characters that hold any pointy metal weapon these days...
So I'll be looking over his games and see if a nice compromise can be made.

This will probably end up being a very large post so I guess I'll put it all under a spoiler tag.

[insert moveset]

Well that's what I've got for the most part. I hope this will give a bit more of a rough idea of how Hershel could be approached for Smash. I definitely don't agree with the idea that the dev's would draw a blank with him as there is definitely a lot to work with for the Prof.

Here's hoping for the best...

And hopefully the images don't break...

You actually brought up some really interesting ideas with this moveset, definitely a lot of in-character moves are present, with him working to out-mindgame his opponent. Only complaint I have is that there seem to be a looot of projectiles in your moveset, like Mega Man level projectile count, but outside of that fact everything is really great.

I'll list some of my favorite bits. The 3 arrows is a really clever idea, being able to control which one is actually real. I'm not sure if there should be a small indication as to which one is real or not, but I'm leaning more towards there shouldn't since the intent is that the opponent is supposed to guess what you're thinking. The sleep bomb is also interesting to me, being able to control it at your discretion. I imagine some mindgames where you put it right up in the opponent's face, and right before connecting you send it up and bait out a shield drop to hit them. Your forward aerial is really cool in that you can control the initial angle of the fish by titling up or down, I think that mechanic has only been applied to characters' tilt attacks so that would be a cool unique mechanic for Layton. Slot machine gun is always a given, and I think I'd personally prefer the fossil glider as a recovery since it represents the professor's... profession.

I'm still in the boat that Layton's fencing skills should be lightly represented in his moveset, probably relegated to just his Smash or tilt attacks. I thought of a cool idea for his forward smash while reading through your moveset, which I wanted to share real quick. Layton pulls out a fencing sword, and while charging in the fencing position, you are able to tap forward and/or backward up to 2 times, which will make Layton hop forward or backward before unleashing the attack. This would let you lunge forward if your opponent is just out of reach, jump back to avoid a punish, or even psyche out your opponent by hopping back and then forward again to trick them into rushing in only to get hit. I imagine his other smash attacks would have a similar trick to them, giving Layton a number of interesting options that showcase his fencing skills while not taking up too many of his moves.

 

[Curious Villager]

You actually brought up some really interesting ideas with this moveset, definitely a lot of in-character moves are present, with him working to out-mindgame his opponent. Only complaint I have is that there seem to be a looot of projectiles in your moveset, like Mega Man level projectile count, but outside of that fact everything is really great.

I'll list some of my favorite bits. The 3 arrows is a really clever idea, being able to control which one is actually real. I'm not sure if there should be a small indication as to which one is real or not, but I'm leaning more towards there shouldn't since the intent is that the opponent is supposed to guess what you're thinking. The sleep bomb is also interesting to me, being able to control it at your discretion. I imagine some mindgames where you put it right up in the opponent's face, and right before connecting you send it up and bait out a shield drop to hit them. Your forward aerial is really cool in that you can control the initial angle of the fish by titling up or down, I think that mechanic has only been applied to characters' tilt attacks so that would be a cool unique mechanic for Layton. Slot machine gun is always a given, and I think I'd personally prefer the fossil glider as a recovery since it represents the professor's... profession.

I'm still in the boat that Layton's fencing skills should be lightly represented in his moveset, probably relegated to just his Smash or tilt attacks. I thought of a cool idea for his forward smash while reading through your moveset, which I wanted to share real quick. Layton pulls out a fencing sword, and while charging in the fencing position, you are able to tap forward and/or backward up to 2 times, which will make Layton hop forward or backward before unleashing the attack. This would let you lunge forward if your opponent is just out of reach, jump back to avoid a punish, or even psyche out your opponent by hopping back and then forward again to trick them into rushing in only to get hit. I imagine his other smash attacks would have a similar trick to them, giving Layton a number of interesting options that showcase his fencing skills while not taking up too many of his moves.

Oh, there are indeed quite a few projectile based moves now that you mention it, I didn't really notice as I was looking through everything to see what fits. I suppose if you were to implement the lead pipe as an toggleable item Hershel can equip, then you can sort of give yourself the choice between ranged and melee attacks on the fly...

I suppose if you need to give it an indication for the real arrow, then perhaps something a little subtle such as Hershel looking up, down or straight ahead might work.

That sounds like an interesting idea. And would play further into the idea of Layton's attacks misdirecting the opponents. One other idea I've seen around was being able to change the Smash attacks directions. So while you may charge it forward, you can change it to hit backwards instead. This has mainly been done for special moves so far if I recall.


I think the moveset is nearly done. I'm only just missing something for the up air and some minor ones like grab attacks, ledge attacks and whatnot. Though I suppose a simple slap or swing of the lead pipe might work there...

 

[DutchPichu]

I asked a question in the Newcomer DLC topic about which company everybody thinks are the most likely to get in Smash Ultimate (out of SNK, Level-5, Activision, Bethesda, Ubisoft and Koei Tecmo).

It is weird to see that almost everybody thinks Level-5 is fourth/fifth/sixth, while I think Level-5 is a lot more likely. Maybe because I am Layton fan? We know for sure Layton is popular. Hopefully he did well in the fighter ballot. Layton was a casual DS icon, as a lot of people here in Europe played the Layton games. Japan loves Layton too. I absolutely think Layton did better on the fighter ballot than Doomguy, any of the Resident Evil characters, any SNK character or Heihachi (remember that during the beginning of the ballot Ryu was the more likely fighter character; and after Ryu's release we already had a fighter character so Heihachi-voters would vote for something different due to Heihachi being unlikely by then, especially after the Sakurai comment on Heihachi). The only "contenders" who maybe got higher scores are Rayman (spirit), Lloyd Irving and Phoenix Wright. ... and I thought Professor Layton also had higher sales numbers than the Ace Attorney series?

 

[Curious Villager]

I asked a question in the Newcomer DLC topic about which company everybody thinks are the most likely to get in Smash Ultimate (out of SNK, Level-5, Activision, Bethesda, Ubisoft and Koei Tecmo).

It is weird to see that almost everybody thinks Level-5 is fourth/fifth/sixth, while I think Level-5 is a lot more likely. Maybe because I am Layton fan? We know for sure Layton is popular. Hopefully he did well in the fighter ballot. Layton was a casual DS icon, as a lot of people here in Europe played the Layton games. Japan loves Layton too. I absolutely think Layton did better on the fighter ballot than Doomguy, any of the Resident Evil characters, any SNK character or Heihachi (remember that during the beginning of the ballot Ryu was the more likely fighter character; and after Ryu's release we already had a fighter character so Heihachi-voters would vote for something different due to Heihachi being unlikely by then, especially after the Sakurai comment on Heihachi). The only "contenders" who maybe got higher scores are Rayman (spirit), Lloyd Irving and Phoenix Wright. ... and I thought Professor Layton also had higher sales numbers than the Ace Attorney series?

Professor Layton is currently Level-5's highest selling game series being at 17 million right now. Its also their most popular franchise globally.

Personally, I think the last two characters will most likely be from Japanese third parties. Hence why I put Koei Tecmo and Level-5 higher up. I'm not quite as sure about an SNK character myself. At least for this fighters pass. If there was another, I could see a couple more Western third parties making it in after the success of Banjo.

In terms of the ballot. I'd imagine Layton has done fairly well in it, or at least well enough to be noticed by Sakurai and Nintendo. Even Jibanyan was a fairly popular request so I'd say a Level-5 character was most surely at least considered.

For example, this estimated poll chart, so far (Which I think was taken from this exit poll), only Sora, Jibanyan, Phoenix, Arle and Layton aren't featured in the game in any way yet.

Spoiler

Of course, polls are just polls and we have no way of telling what the actual ballot results where. But with the amount of fan requested characters having made it into the game at least in one way or another. Here's hoping for the best.

 

[DutchPichu]

Personally, I think the last two characters will most likely be from Japanese third parties. Hence why I put Koei Tecmo and Level-5 higher up. I'm not quite as sure about an SNK character myself.

I only see Bethesda having a shot as a western third party because that is the only one know of talking to Nintendo about Smash.

SNK is unpopular in the west right? Like, before that weird female fighter leak came up, I had never heard of SNK whatsoever. And I know Sakurai put in Marth/Roy in Melee (he wanted to cut it in western versions), Lucas in Brawl (he thought Mother 3 was going to be localised) and Dragon Quest hero in Smash (DQ is not super popular here, but the games are localised), but I don't think he will put a SNK character in if it is really unpopular. At least, I don't know one of their series and I am certain my friends who also game don't know one series of SNK. So yes, Koei Tecmo is likely because of the crossovers they already did with Nintendo (Hyrule & Fire Emblem Warriors). Level-5 is likely for Layton almost being a second party character on the (3)DS (which is also in favor of Phoenix).

In terms of the ballot. I'd imagine Layton has done fairly well in it, or at least well enough to be noticed by Sakurai and Nintendo. Even Jibanyan was a fairly popular request so I'd say a Level-5 character was most surely at least considered.

I fully agree with this. We are lucky the Yokai Watch hype looks to be cooled down so Jibanyan is less likely than during the Smash 4 era.

A big part of this forum is sleeping on Professor Layton and that's sad.

 

[Curious Villager]

I only see Bethesda having a shot as a western third party because that is the only one know of talking to Nintendo about Smash.

SNK is unpopular in the west right? Like, before that weird female fighter leak came up, I had never heard of SNK whatsoever. And I know Sakurai put in Marth/Roy in Melee (he wanted to cut it in western versions), Lucas in Brawl (he thought Mother 3 was going to be localised) and Dragon Quest hero in Smash (DQ is not super popular here, but the games are localised), but I don't think he will put a SNK character in if it is really unpopular. At least, I don't know one of their series and I am certain my friends who also game don't know one series of SNK. So yes, Koei Tecmo is likely because of the crossovers they already did with Nintendo (Hyrule & Fire Emblem Warriors). Level-5 is likely for Layton almost being a second party character on the (3)DS (which is also in favor of Phoenix).



I fully agree with this. We are lucky the Yokai Watch hype looks to be cooled down so Jibanyan is less likely than during the Smash 4 era.

A big part of this forum is sleeping on Professor Layton and that's sad.

Yeah I've heard of that, the thing is though, I'm fairly sure a lot of third party companies have talked to Nintendo in regards to seeing their characters in Smash. In fact, even Akihiro Hino himself asked Sakurai directly in regards to seeing Layton in Smash at one point, yet we are still waiting for Layton to this day. So I'm not quite as sure about the likelihood of seeing a Bethesda character in Smash other than knowing the fact that their most likely easy to work with if Sakurai and Nintendo wanted a character from them in the game.

To be completely honest, I never really heard of SNK myself until fairly recently, so I don't really have much to comment on them. It might just be my own ignorance talking though. If the reason they are discussed is mainly because of that Niconico guy, then I'm not really sure if its even worth delving into. But that's probably just me....

In regards to Yokai Watch, while it is possible that we could see Jibanyan over the Prof. I kind of feel like Layton would work out better as DLC since the Prof overall has more popularity globally. I'm not even sure what Hino's opinion is on seeing Jibanyan in smash so I don't want to make any rash assumptions. I just know that he's all for seeing Layton make it in though. I should probably look up if he has commented anything about that, now that I'm thinking about it...

Level-5 in general is being slept on, despite their contributions and presence with Nintendo. And that's sad.

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding SNK, is one of those things like Saint Seiya or Football (or Soccer if you will) Not popular in the US, but EXTREMELY beloved in other parts of the World.

As a Chilean myself, i can attest i have seen my share of SNK fans, and this extends to the rest of Latin America. Also SNK's games are very popular in China.

But regarding Layton. It's a shame that he seems to be forgotten nowadays. As a Simon supporter, i can tell you how it is to be ignored by everybody around you and not taking you seriously (at least until Vergeben showed up) and Layton gets a lot of that. I guess that's because his story is over?

When it comes to Jibanyan vs Layton, i have my concerns. One Dragon Quest's presence in Smash. Theorically, one could see this as argument that Franchises that have importance in Japan take priority, but one has to realize that DQ is a Cultural Icon in Japan and the Grandfather of JRPGs, a founder of ideas, a trendsetter. Even with Yokai Watch's importance in Japan, i see them more as a Trendfollower if anything (read: im not calling them a rip-off) so the comparison is not 1 to 1. Plus, Layton's history and age may actually play at his advantage. For those who don't know, the large majority of Third Parties in Smash are classic ones. Simon, Mega Man, Sonic, etc. The only modern ones are Bayonetta and Persona (i know Persona is older than Layton, but almost every element of Persona is Smash is from 5, so i don't count it) and is pretty clear Sakurai has a soft spot for the Old School.

Professor Layton is currently Level-5's highest selling game series being at 17 million right now. Its also their most popular franchise globally.

Personally, I think the last two characters will most likely be from Japanese third parties. Hence why I put Koei Tecmo and Level-5 higher up. I'm not quite as sure about an SNK character myself. At least for this fighters pass. If there was another, I could see a couple more Western third parties making it in after the success of Banjo.

In terms of the ballot. I'd imagine Layton has done fairly well in it, or at least well enough to be noticed by Sakurai and Nintendo. Even Jibanyan was a fairly popular request so I'd say a Level-5 character was most surely at least considered.

For example, this estimated poll chart, so far (Which I think was taken from this exit poll), only Sora, Jibanyan, Phoenix, Arle and Layton aren't featured in the game in any way yet.

Spoiler

View attachment 229005

Of course, polls are just polls and we have no way of telling what the actual ballot results where. But with the amount of fan requested characters having made it into the game at least in one way or another. Here's hoping for the best.

The fact that Isaac is in the top 1 spot makes me sad, real sad..................

 

[Curious Villager]

Regarding SNK, is one of those things like Saint Seiya or Football (or Soccer if you will) Not popular in the US, but EXTREMELY beloved in other parts of the World.

As a Chilean myself, i can attest i have seen my share of SNK fans, and this extends to the rest of Latin America. Also SNK's games are very popular in China.

But regarding Layton. It's a shame that he seems to be forgotten nowadays. As a Simon supporter, i can tell you how it is to be ignored by everybody around you and not taking you seriously (at least until Vergeben showed up) and Layton gets a lot of that. I guess that's because his story is over?

When it comes to Jibanyan vs Layton, i have my concerns. One Dragon Quest's presence in Smash. Theorically, one could see this as argument that Franchises that have importance in Japan take priority, but one has to realize that DQ is a Cultural Icon in Japan and the Grandfather of JRPGs, a founder of ideas, a trendsetter. Even with Yokai Watch's importance in Japan, i see them more as a Trendfollower if anything (read: im not calling them a rip-off) so the comparison is not 1 to 1. Plus, Layton's history and age may actually play at his advantage. For those who don't know, the large majority of Third Parties in Smash are classic ones. Simon, Mega Man, Sonic, etc. The only modern ones are Bayonetta and Persona (i know Persona is older than Layton, but almost every element of Persona is Smash is from 5, so i don't count it) and is pretty clear Sakurai has a soft spot for the Old School.


The fact that Isaac is in the top 1 spot makes me sad, real sad..................

Oh I see, that's interesting to know about SNK

Oh yeah, I remember that about Simon. If I recall, he was a popular request back during the Brawl period, but then went mostly ignored later on. Presumably due to Konami's issues at the time as well as Snake's cut later on. I'm happy for you that he finally made it in. In regards to Layton, while his story did technically end. His series is still very active to this day and the Prof himself is still making appearances from time to time. Currently Level-5 is remastering his older adventures in HD, the most recent one being released just the other day. So he's still very relevant to this day.

I do find it odd that Level-5 is so ignored when it comes to seeing content from them being included in Smash from the speculation community. Their still present in the game's industry and have released some breakout hits in the past. Nintendo themselves even seem to be very fond of them. Satoru Shibata (The former president of Nintendo of Europe, who later was promoted as one of the higher ups at Nintendo of Japan) is even a huge fan of Level-5's properties. Especially the Layton series and Yokai Watch. And even Shigeru Miyamoto and the late Satoru Iwata have praised Level-5's contributions during the DS and 3DS era's. Even Sakurai himself seems to be good friends with Hino too.

In regards to Dragon Quest, keep in mind that we did get Final Fantasy in Smash beforehand (well, what little we got of it at least) I don't know too much about Square's properties, but from what I've heard, while Dragon Quest is huge in Japan, Final Fantasy is apparently more popular globally. Which would be a similar point with Layton and Yokai Watch. To where Sakurai might opt to include the series that is more popular worldwide first.

That said, I am keeping an open mind in regards to Jibanyan though as him making it in over the Prof is still a very real possibility.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah, I remember that about Simon. If I recall, he was a popular request back during the Brawl period, but then went mostly ignored later on. Presumably due to Konami's issues at the time as well as Snake's cut later on. I'm happy for you that he finally made it in. In regards to Layton, while his story did technically end. His series is still very active to this day and the Prof himself is still making appearances from time to time. Currently Level-5 is remastering his older adventures in HD, the most recent one being released just the other day. So he's still very relevant to this day..

I never knew Simon was a popular request back in Brawl. I guess back in the Brawl days people had the mindest of "Oh, Maybe Konami is brining MORE than just Snake", but after Brawl only featured Snake people were in the mindest of them beign ok with that, which led to "1 Character Per Company" fan rule to form, at least until Ryu's reveal. Also it's likely he wasn't seen as Bomberman's rival at that time because Hudson was still a thing, and that Brawl Speculation was a "Anything goes" era, as opposed to the more conservative take that the community took during Smash 4's speculation onwards (which slowly started to change once the DLC was confirmed).


As for relevance, it's becoming more and more harder to deduce. We just got a character whose last game was released over a decade ago. I guess sometimes the lack of relevance IS the relevance itself i think (as in, people will notice you when you are gone and demand you to come back like K.Rool and Banjo, as opposed to take you from granted expecting you to appear like Dixie, Toad and Bandanna Dee)

I do find it odd that Level-5 is so ignored when it comes to seeing content from them being included in Smash from the speculation community. Their still present in the game's industry and have released some breakout hits in the past. Nintendo themselves even seem to be very fond of them. Satoru Shibata (The former president of Nintendo of Europe, who later was promoted as one of the higher ups at Nintendo of Japan) is even a huge fan of Level-5's properties. Especially the Layton series and Yokai Watch. And even Shigeru Miyamoto and the late Satoru Iwata have praised Level-5's contributions during the DS and 3DS era's. Even Sakurai himself seems to be good friends with Hino too.

In regards to Dragon Quest, keep in mind that we did get Final Fantasy in Smash beforehand (well, what little we got of it at least) I don't know too much about Square's properties, but from what I've heard, while Dragon Quest is huge in Japan, Final Fantasy is apparently more popular globally. Which would be a similar point with Layton and Yokai Watch. To where Sakurai might opt to include the series that is more popular worldwide first.

That said, I am keeping an open mind in regards to Jibanyan though as him making it in over the Prof is still a very real possibility.

Im expecting at least one more Company to get its own character. You see, each Smash game introduces at least 2 new companies with a character:

-Brawl Introduced Sega (Sonic) and Konami (Snake)
-4 Introduced Capcom (Mega Man and Ryu with DLC), Namco (Pac-Man) and Square Enix via DLC (Cloud)
-Ultimate is the only one so far whose base roster does not introduce any new company, instead the base guests are from already represented ones (Simon and Richter from Konami and Ken from Capcom) Regarding DLC, Joker is listed under Atlus, and depending how you look at it it may or may not count as a new company (because Sega onws Atlus). If you don't count Atlus, then the only new company with a character is Microsoft (Banjo & Kazooie) Plus since Smash 4 introduced 3, it's possible we may get a third company with it's own fighter (assuming one considers Atlus as its own entity)

That means we could get 1 or 2 new companies with Fighter 4 and 5, and the only ones i see plausible are:
-SNK: Terry Bogard (basically SNK's earlies mascot who still appears in SNK's fighting games as one of the biggest faces of the company)
-Tecmo Koei: Ryu Hayabusa (basically the most recognizable character they own, has appeared in 3 of the their largest franchises as the main character, series veteran, or guest character)
-Level 5: Layton and maybe Jibanyan (you listed the reason so im not gonna repeat it)
-and the ONLY Western Third Party i see having a chance, Activision: Crash (the only other western character with japanese popularity, which is why i don't think we will see Doomguy at all)

 

[Curious Villager]

I never knew Simon was a popular request back in Brawl. I guess back in the Brawl days people had the mindest of "Oh, Maybe Konami is brining MORE than just Snake", but after Brawl only featured Snake people were in the mindest of them beign ok with that, which led to "1 Character Per Company" fan rule to form, at least until Ryu's reveal. Also it's likely he wasn't seen as Bomberman's rival at that time because Hudson was still a thing, and that Brawl Speculation was a "Anything goes" era, as opposed to the more conservative take that the community took during Smash 4's speculation onwards (which slowly started to change once the DLC was confirmed).


As for relevance, it's becoming more and more harder to deduce. We just got a character whose last game was released over a decade ago. I guess sometimes the lack of relevance IS the relevance itself i think (as in, people will notice you when you are gone and demand you to come back like K.Rool and Banjo, as opposed to take you from granted expecting you to appear like Dixie, Toad and Bandanna Dee)



Im expecting at least one more Company to get its own character. You see, each Smash game introduces at least 2 new companies with a character:

-Brawl Introduced Sega (Sonic) and Konami (Snake)
-4 Introduced Capcom (Mega Man and Ryu with DLC), Namco (Pac-Man) and Square Enix via DLC (Cloud)
-Ultimate is the only one so far whose base roster does not introduce any new company, instead the base guests are from already represented ones (Simon and Richter from Konami and Ken from Capcom) Regarding DLC, Joker is listed under Atlus, and depending how you look at it it may or may not count as a new company (because Sega onws Atlus). If you don't count Atlus, then the only new company with a character is Microsoft (Banjo & Kazooie) Plus since Smash 4 introduced 3, it's possible we may get a third company with it's own fighter (assuming one considers Atlus as its own entity)

That means we could get 1 or 2 new companies with Fighter 4 and 5, and the only ones i see plausible are:
-SNK: Terry Bogard (basically SNK's earlies mascot who still appears in SNK's fighting games as one of the biggest faces of the company)
-Tecmo Koei: Ryu Hayabusa (basically the most recognizable character they own, has appeared in 3 of the their largest franchises as the main character, series veteran, or guest character)
-Level 5: Layton and maybe Jibanyan (you listed the reason so im not gonna repeat it)
-and the ONLY Western Third Party i see having a chance, Activision: Crash (the only other western character with japanese popularity, which is why i don't think we will see Doomguy at all)

Yeah as you said, Brawl was pretty much the "anything goes" period when it came to third parties. Snake's inclusion alone made everyone go wild in regards to the possibilities. I think that lead Nintendo/Sakurai themselves to come forth and say that besides Snake, that they may have at least one or two more third party characters in the game. But yes, I remember seeing Simon Belmont's name thrown around a number of times. Not as much as Sonic and Megaman, mind you. But yes, he did come up a number of times.

Yeah I suppose its more or less as you described it. When a given character disappears for sometime. Fans will start to catch on and demand for their return. Especially the longer they remain off the scene and aren't given a proper send off or closure. Ironically this is also a thing within the Layton series and its fanbase too with one of its characters.

Overall though, its kind of hard to gauge by what metric Sakurai goes with in terms of a character's relevance. But then again, he only said that characters that don't have much of a future are only rarely chosen. Not that they are not chosen at all. So I suppose so long as they have a very high demand to be brought back, that he will try his best to do what he can.


I'd imagine they will try and get as many different companies involved as they can, yes. We currently have Microsoft and Atlus if you count that.
And yes, I'm pretty much with you there. Whoever the last two additional companies would be, if there are any more. It's most likely either Level-5, Koei Tecmo, and maybe SNK and Activision (if there is any additional Western third parties coming along) Especially since Crash is more or less on the same boat as Banjo in terms of global demand, including Japan.

 

[DutchPichu]

I think out of the list Level-5, Koei Tecmo, SNK and Activision, that Level-5 has the most global demand.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I asked a question in the Newcomer DLC topic about which company everybody thinks are the most likely to get in Smash Ultimate (out of SNK, Level-5, Activision, Bethesda, Ubisoft and Koei Tecmo).

It is weird to see that almost everybody thinks Level-5 is fourth/fifth/sixth, while I think Level-5 is a lot more likely. Maybe because I am Layton fan? We know for sure Layton is popular. Hopefully he did well in the fighter ballot. Layton was a casual DS icon, as a lot of people here in Europe played the Layton games. Japan loves Layton too. I absolutely think Layton did better on the fighter ballot than Doomguy, any of the Resident Evil characters, any SNK character or Heihachi (remember that during the beginning of the ballot Ryu was the more likely fighter character; and after Ryu's release we already had a fighter character so Heihachi-voters would vote for something different due to Heihachi being unlikely by then, especially after the Sakurai comment on Heihachi). The only "contenders" who maybe got higher scores are Rayman (spirit), Lloyd Irving and Phoenix Wright. ... and I thought Professor Layton also had higher sales numbers than the Ace Attorney series?

I think it probably stems from people still seeing Jibanyan as the go-to Level-5 rep but acknowledging Yo-Kai Watch was basically a fad. Not a lot of people realize that Layton has nearly 20 million sales under his belt.

Also Layton is coincidentally the only main candidate that hasn't been pointed at by 'leaks' (aside from Ubisoft I don't know why people are even considering them this time around).

I only see Bethesda having a shot as a western third party because that is the only one know of talking to Nintendo about Smash.

SNK is unpopular in the west right? Like, before that weird female fighter leak came up, I had never heard of SNK whatsoever. And I know Sakurai put in Marth/Roy in Melee (he wanted to cut it in western versions), Lucas in Brawl (he thought Mother 3 was going to be localised) and Dragon Quest hero in Smash (DQ is not super popular here, but the games are localised), but I don't think he will put a SNK character in if it is really unpopular. At least, I don't know one of their series and I am certain my friends who also game don't know one series of SNK. So yes, Koei Tecmo is likely because of the crossovers they already did with Nintendo (Hyrule & Fire Emblem Warriors). Level-5 is likely for Layton almost being a second party character on the (3)DS (which is also in favor of Phoenix).



I fully agree with this. We are lucky the Yokai Watch hype looks to be cooled down so Jibanyan is less likely than during the Smash 4 era.

A big part of this forum is sleeping on Professor Layton and that's sad.

As has been mentioned, SNK is very popular in many places around the world (I think Europe has a big scene as well). While I don't think KoF97 was a very big success in the States it still did business, and I think everyone is familiar with Metal Slug.

I think out of the list Level-5, Koei Tecmo, SNK and Activision, that Level-5 has the most global demand.

I'd say Crash has us beat in that aspect, unless Europe hates him or something.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd say Crash has us beat in that aspect, unless Europe hates him or something.

i dislike him but i know people who do like em

 

[Curious Villager]

I think it probably stems from people still seeing Jibanyan as the go-to Level-5 rep but acknowledging Yo-Kai Watch was basically a fad. Not a lot of people realize that Layton has nearly 20 million sales under his belt.

Also Layton is coincidentally the only main candidate that hasn't been pointed at by 'leaks' (aside from Ubisoft I don't know why people are even considering them this time around).

As has been mentioned, SNK is very popular in many places around the world (I think Europe has a big scene as well). While I don't think KoF97 was a very big success in the States it still did business, and I think everyone is familiar with Metal Slug.

I'd say Crash has us beat in that aspect, unless Europe hates him or something.

I guess that's why Level-5 has been making it a point to point out the series sales numbers for the HD remasters. Then again, considering its their highest selling game franchise under their belt. Their probably pretty proud of it, especially since it was their first franchise they published.

Apparently Layton does seem to unironically make some rounds in terms of rumours in Japan (Well if that one 5Chan rumour guy's statement is anything to go by), you'd think Jibanyan would be the go to Level-5 rumour character over there....

Oh they did Metal Slug? I've heard of that. That makes more sense now. Still not quite as sure on how likely they are but I guess I'll keep an open mind.

 

[Matthjass]

Curious Villager Nice moveset ideas ! I especially like the banana dash and the arrows. And yes the hamster definitely has to be somewhere in Layton moveset, its minigame was so fun !

 

[Looma]

No QQs here should Layton make it. This is one of the more interesting characters I've come across as far as Smash is concerned.

I quite like the idea of a highly technical character featuring Pac-Man's mindgames on steroids, If there's any character that has the right to a steep learning curve with an incredibly high skill ceiling, it's Layton. I wanna see some real finesse in this scene.

 

[Deleted member]

Crash is loved in places like America, Europe or Japan.

But honestly, the same applies to Layton based on what I’ve seen.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'm happy to hear that the new moveset idea seems to be fairly well received. I've included it into the OP as well so its easier to find and update as the thread moves along. If any new idea's or adjustments come along, I'll be sure to update it.
Professor Pumpkaboo Here's your new Layton moveset Layton sis.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Okay, I decided to go full on in depth over Layton's moveset, especially after yesterday's debate at the social thread.
While the Layton fandom absolutely adores the idea of Layton joining in with his fencing prowers, the Smash community absolutely despises any characters that hold any pointy metal weapon these days...
So I'll be looking over his games and see if a nice compromise can be made.

This will probably end up being a very large post so I guess I'll put it all under a spoiler tag.

Here goes....

Spoiler

First off lets look at the general gameplay of the Layton series and how Sakurai tends to design most characters.

F-Zero for example, is a game all about high speed, high risk and high reward, this is reflected onto Captain Falcon's moveset. While he doesn't physically fight himself. His moveset does revolve around getting close to your opponents and dealing lots and heavy damage as fast as possible but with very tight windows. He is also one of the fastest runners in the game (behind Sonic of course) which also reflects his series high speed nature.

Animal Crossing is all about collecting as Sakurai stated back when Villager was first revealed. Thus his moveset reflects upon the various tools they can collect and use in their game. But most notably their neutral special. Which allows them to pocket all kinds of items and projectiles that come their way.

Duck Hunt was a game all about the Zapper peripheral that came along with the game, and being able to shoot various objects straight at the screen. Their moveset is reflected upon that, along with two other games that where compatible with the Nintendo Zapper.

These are just a few examples, for more in depth analysis on these characters plus more and how their designed, I think the best place to look for that would be the Know your Moves series done by RelaxAlax over at his youtube channel.

But back to Layton.

View attachment 228908The Professor Layton series main core mechanics are the puzzles and brain teasers. Their often designed in such a way to make the players think close and hard about what the questions or tasks given is actually asking for. For example, the infamous mouse puzzle from Curious Village gives you a general overview of how mice breed but then tells you that you bought one mouse and then proceeds to ask you how many you would end up having after a certain amount of time has passed. The answer would be one as at the end of the day, you only bought one mouse. These sort of puzzles that are designed to make the player make quick assumptions without reading the question given carefully is a prevalent part of the Layton series.

So how would this reflect upon Layton's moveset? It should mostly revolve around mind games and making your opponent have to think ahead in terms of what you would do next. Making quick assumptions of what the Prof would do next will mostly lead to getting thrown off into a disadvantage.

So back to Layton's moveset, here are a few examples of attacks the Prof can use.

View attachment 228909 View attachment 228910
Side Smash
These two puzzles "The winning Arrow" and "One true Sword" are about you having to figure out the one real object among the number of fake ones.
One move Layton could have (Possibly most suitable for his side Smash attack) is him shooting three arrows at his opponent. However, only one of them is real and cause damage, the other two are fake and will just disappear with a poof with no damage or knockback given.
You are able to choose which of these three arrows are the real one. This would be a particularly handy tool to use for edge guarding and syking out your opponents who are trying to recover back to the stage.

View attachment 228911
Side Special
This puzzle involved you having to roll a sleep bomb through a panel maze in order to reach an open vent. One of Layton's moves can involve him shooting out a sleep bomb that can put your opponents to sleep. You will be able to navigate the bomb at 90 degree angles about 5 or 6 times each (Much like Snake's side special or Ness's up special) This way you can change its course quickly and have it hit your opponent from above, under, or the back instead of the front. This would most likely be useful against counter/reflect users, Most particularly characters like that absorb or reflect projectiles at a close window.


This are the main examples of puzzles Layton can use that reflect closely around the gameplay of his series. I'm sure there are more throughout the series history that Sakurai can use that expand further around this idea.

Other puzzles they can use are as follows.

View attachment 228914
Tether
The Grand Hall Rescue puzzle could be used as a tether recovery. Layton will swing with a candle and rope towards the ledge.

View attachment 228929
throws
His throws could have him solve a quick slide puzzle, as the opponent would then be thrown at whatever direction is open once the puzzle is complete. The picture could be the opponents Stock Icon, just like Mr. Game & Watch's throws.

View attachment 228941
Forward aerial Back aerial
Layton will launch off the fish from Last Specter. He will be able to control its angle too. It will bounce off any walls it hits

View attachment 228943
Down air
Layton would throw down the toy car from Lost Future, and will then move forward after landing. Hitting any opponents who get in the way, you can even stand on top of it momentarily. (Basically a mix between Pac Man's Fire Hydrant and the Pokeball Pokemon gogoat.)

View attachment 228912
Dash Attack
Slippery Trip is a puzzle where you have to navigate through a maze with Banana peels spread all over the place. If you walk over one, you will slip quickly towards the wall. Two ways this can be incorporated is through a dash attack where Layton will momentarily slide over a banana peel for a short bit. Might be the longest dash attack in the game too. Otherwise, this can also be a effect exclusive to Layton whenever he walks over the actual banana peel item itself.

View attachment 228927
Jab Rapid Jab
The Magnifying glass can be used as a Jab and Rapid Jab attack. Once the rapid jab finished a big red exclamation mark will show up to launch the opponent away. This is in reference to many players tapping around on the screen when looking for hidden hint coins and puzzles especially in the DS games.

View attachment 228920
Side tilt
Layton would throw an apple as the Hamster will then run after it. If any character picks up the apple or is so much as near it, the Hamster will proceed to hit the opponent with a barrage of attacks. Much like the Sable Prince Assist Trophy.

View attachment 228940
Down Tilt
The toy robot from Miracle Mask will briefly spring up

View attachment 228931
Up tilt ! Up Smash
His up tilt can be him finding a hint coin, whereas his up smash will spring up a red exclamation mark.

View attachment 228935
Down Smash
Layton will use the Squirrel from Azran Legacy to roll a giant nut down across the stage. The longer you hold on the attack, the faster it will go.

Layton's hand made gadgets

View attachment 228916
Down Special
The Town Catapult from Last Specter. It might be downscaled a little. But I can see it working a bit like Zelda's Phantom, to where it gets build up over time and then shoots a barrage of Rocks directly towards the direction you've set it up. Perhaps you could have Luke standing next to it and shooting it out once its ready.

View attachment 228918
Neutral Special
The Slot Machine gun from Unwound/Lost Future, can be charged up and then shoot a barrage of hint coins towards your opponent. Or it could work like Ivysaur's Neutral special but sideways.

View attachment 228919
Up Special
The handmade Flying Contraption from Eternal Diva could work very well as an up special move for Layton. If for any reason he can't have any content from the movie. Then the Hang Gliders from Curious Village and Azran Legacy can work too.


View attachment 228928
Final Smash

His Final Smash would obviously be his famous "The Culprit is you!" finger pointing scene. Its an iconic staple of the Layton series after all. For some added fanservice and hype, they can include other Layton characters to point towards the opponent alongside him such as Luke, Flora, Emmy, Katrielle, maybe even Alfendi.


This is only the tip of the iceberg and I'm sure that there is a lot more Sakurai & co can pull from for the Prof. Other examples are the Fish minigame, Toy Robot and the Squirrel. I'll update this as I find more new idea's they could use.

In terms of Layton using a weapon like a Sword or Lead Pipe. While it is an iconic part of the Prof and some of the most hype moments in his series is him going toe to toe with a fencing match with his opponents throughout the series. I feel that making him use a Sword would be a bit of a disservice towards the character and the series that he hails from as it only represents a small part of the franchise. At the very least if he does use one, it should be used very sparingly.
An alternative way this can be used as a compromise is giving Layton a Lead Pipe as an equippable item that he can use. You know how is able to choose which of the three starters he uses first at the Character Select Screen? Layton could have a Lead Pipe item next to his character portrait and you will be able to toggle the item on or off if you so wish. This would be useful for those who don't wish to play with items on, but still want Layton to use a battering weapon in battle

The way the Lead Pipe would work is essentially like how you would use any other item such as the Beam Sword or Lip's Stick. However, Layton would have the ability to use a few more moves whenever he holds any battering item rather than just for jabs, Smash attacks, forward Jabs. But also as an additional aerials, up smash and down smash. Layton would be able to throw the Lead Pipe away like any other item, if he loses it, it will respawn somewhere near him for him to pick up. Like with K.Rool's crown.

I think the reason of opting for Lead Pipe to be an equippable item is that Hershel himself, doesn't own an Sword or Lead Pipe of his own, but rather he picks up whatever battering item he finds lying around and uses it to his advantage. So making it an item feels like the most appropriate thing to do as that's essentially how items work in smash too.

Well that's what I've got for the most part. I hope this will give a bit more of a rough idea of how Hershel could be approached for Smash. I definitely don't agree with the idea that the dev's would draw a blank with him as there is definitely a lot to work with for the Prof.

Here's hoping for the best...

And hopefully the images don't break...

That. moveset list was absolutly beautiful, absolutly absolutly beautiful

 

[Curious Villager]

That. moveset list was absolutly beautiful, absolutly absolutly beautiful

I'm happy to hear that. Knowing the possibilities with Layton and his series makes me really want to see what Sakurai & co can pull off for the Prof too. I'm sure there are some interesting ideas I may have missed and not thought of that they can take advantage of.

Here's hoping for the best.

 

[MattX20]

If Luke were part of the Professor's design, would he be in the background following ala the Pokemon Trainer?

 

[Curious Villager]

If Luke were part of the Professor's design, would he be in the background following ala the Pokemon Trainer?

That would be an interesting prospect to think about. Luke and Hershel are practically an inseparable duo. I can see him being treated like Morgana and show up in his taunt's, Final Smash and Victory screen. But it might also be interesting to see him help out the Prof with some of his moves such as filling up the Slot Machine Gun and Catapult. Although that might end up looking a bit jarring if you where to use these moves close to the same time. Unless they where to involve other characters to help out too such as Emmy, Flora, Katrielle....

That would be interesting to see, albeit maybe a bit too crowded...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Gonna leave this here: https://t.co/ztaXVGlMl5

This was another fighter that I received a lot of requests for – mostly from overseas. That being said, King K. Rool and Ridley were pretty fervently requested too. And as I continue to grant these requests, I can only see a future where there’s even more of them!

It's a correct assumption on his part. So even if Layton doesn't get in this time, it won't put an end to his chances.

 

[AEMehr]

I find your moveset concept very intriguing Curious Villager. I've spoken with a couple of friends about the Puzzle that is designing the Professor as a Smash Fighter myself, so I thought I'd share my take on it.
While I think the philosophy you used as a basis is pretty sound, I feel that misdirection isn't exactly a trait that really describes Layton or the series. They're merely a type of puzzle among the various ones you are able to solve. Additionally, basing each individual attack off of a specific puzzle makes him more of a hammer space fighter like Mr. Game & Watch and Villager. I don't think you really have to represent the Puzzle theme so literally.

I would imagine it would be a more subtle take, where the Professor would have a lot of odd/unique attributes to his attacks that would make him rather unorthodox to use compared to any other fighter. These attributes wouldn't be very consistent, like unique knockback angles, added damage multipliers, or even forcing opponents into certain states (like being buried / tripping) through landing certain sweetspots. Despite each fighter being unique in a variety of ways, there are staple traits among the majority of their move lists so you could pick-up and play anyone relatively easily. As a quick example, usually a Fighter's back aerial attack boasts a higher amount of kill power than their other aerials. Instead of making Layton's something simple like that, perhaps if you land it at a sweet spot- it actually sends the opponent the direction Layton is facing with higher knockback than if you landed it normally. Making it a good tool to use for not only push opponents away, but also to use if you are cornered near ledge so you can regain stage control.
Whether he uses certain gizmos he has concocted in the past, simple punch and kicks, or a fencing blade the attributes should lend themselves to any style they specifically want to aim for. But I'd assume they would opt to lean towards his fencing style with a couple references to some iconic gizmos thrown in here and then. Blade or not, no fighter in Smash fights like a fencer, so it is still a unique fighting style on it's own. Besides, Layton is always depicted with some sort of weapon when in altercations whether it's makeshift or not.

The core design is that Layton himself a complex puzzle to utilize correctly. With so many situations you can create/consider the player has to think outside of the box to use the Professor effectively, being more aware of your positioning on top of which normal yields the best result despite it not being the go-to for say Mario or Cloud for example. I guess you could compare this design idea to Mega Man in the sense that he would feel very different from everyone else. The way you his tools would just be very weird next to the rest of the cast.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I find your moveset concept very intriguing Curious Villager. I've spoken with a couple of friends about the Puzzle that is designing the Professor as a Smash Fighter myself, so I thought I'd share my take on it.
While I think the philosophy you used as a basis is pretty sound, I feel that misdirection isn't exactly a trait that really describes Layton or the series. They're merely a type of puzzle among the various ones you are able to solve. Additionally, basing each individual attack off of a specific puzzle makes him more of a hammer space fighter like Mr. Game & Watch and Villager. I don't think you really have to represent the Puzzle theme so literally.

I would imagine it would be a more subtle take, where the Professor would have a lot of odd/unique attributes to his attacks that would make him rather unorthodox to use compared to any other fighter. These attributes wouldn't be very consistent, like unique knockback angles, added damage multipliers, or even forcing opponents into certain states (like being buried / tripping) through landing certain sweetspots. Despite each fighter being unique in a variety of ways, there are staple traits among the majority of their move lists so you could pick-up and play anyone relatively easily. As a quick example, usually a Fighter's back aerial attack boasts a higher amount of kill power than their other aerials. Instead of making Layton's something simple like that, perhaps if you land it at a sweet spot- it actually sends the opponent the direction Layton is facing with higher knockback than if you landed it normally. Making it a good tool to use for not only push opponents away, but also to use if you are cornered near ledge so you can regain stage control.
Whether he uses certain gizmos he has concocted in the past, simple punch and kicks, or a fencing blade the attributes should lend themselves to any style they specifically want to aim for. But I'd assume they would opt to lean towards his fencing style with a couple references to some iconic gizmos thrown in here and then. Blade or not, no fighter in Smash fights like a fencer, so it is still a unique fighting style on it's own. Besides, Layton is always depicted with some sort of weapon when in altercations whether it's makeshift or not.

The core design is that Layton himself a complex puzzle to utilize correctly. With so many situations you can create/consider the player has to think outside of the box to use the Professor effectively, being more aware of your positioning on top of which normal yields the best result despite it not being the go-to for say Mario or Cloud for example. I guess you could compare this design idea to Mega Man in the sense that he would feel very different from everyone else. The way you his tools would just be very weird next to the rest of the cast.

I like this philosophy, even if it sounds like a character I would be terrible at playing.

Isn't Marth a fencer though?

 

[False Sense]

Isn't Marth a fencer though?

If you're talking about actual fencing, then not really. Fencing as a sport is quite a bit different from the aggressive mix of swipes and stabs Marth uses. There's definitely some room for a character that plays like an actual fencer.

I'm actually an amateur fencer myself, so I know a little about the subject

Speaking of which, do we know what type of fencer Layton is? I would assume Foil by default, but I'm curious if there are any context clues as to which type he specializes in.

 

[Curious Villager]

Gonna leave this here: https://t.co/ztaXVGlMl5

It's a correct assumption on his part. So even if Layton doesn't get in this time, it won't put an end to his chances.

Yeah I feel like so long as the fanbase remains persistent, that Layton will most likely always be a character that Sakurai will consider. Here's hoping he did well enough on the fighter ballot to be noticed by the man, then maybe there is a chance we will see the prof one day.

I find your moveset concept very intriguing Curious Villager. I've spoken with a couple of friends about the Puzzle that is designing the Professor as a Smash Fighter myself, so I thought I'd share my take on it.
While I think the philosophy you used as a basis is pretty sound, I feel that misdirection isn't exactly a trait that really describes Layton or the series. They're merely a type of puzzle among the various ones you are able to solve. Additionally, basing each individual attack off of a specific puzzle makes him more of a hammer space fighter like Mr. Game & Watch and Villager. I don't think you really have to represent the Puzzle theme so literally.

I would imagine it would be a more subtle take, where the Professor would have a lot of odd/unique attributes to his attacks that would make him rather unorthodox to use compared to any other fighter. These attributes wouldn't be very consistent, like unique knockback angles, added damage multipliers, or even forcing opponents into certain states (like being buried / tripping) through landing certain sweetspots. Despite each fighter being unique in a variety of ways, there are staple traits among the majority of their move lists so you could pick-up and play anyone relatively easily. As a quick example, usually a Fighter's back aerial attack boasts a higher amount of kill power than their other aerials. Instead of making Layton's something simple like that, perhaps if you land it at a sweet spot- it actually sends the opponent the direction Layton is facing with higher knockback than if you landed it normally. Making it a good tool to use for not only push opponents away, but also to use if you are cornered near ledge so you can regain stage control.
Whether he uses certain gizmos he has concocted in the past, simple punch and kicks, or a fencing blade the attributes should lend themselves to any style they specifically want to aim for. But I'd assume they would opt to lean towards his fencing style with a couple references to some iconic gizmos thrown in here and then. Blade or not, no fighter in Smash fights like a fencer, so it is still a unique fighting style on it's own. Besides, Layton is always depicted with some sort of weapon when in altercations whether it's makeshift or not.

The core design is that Layton himself a complex puzzle to utilize correctly. With so many situations you can create/consider the player has to think outside of the box to use the Professor effectively, being more aware of your positioning on top of which normal yields the best result despite it not being the go-to for say Mario or Cloud for example. I guess you could compare this design idea to Mega Man in the sense that he would feel very different from everyone else. The way you his tools would just be very weird next to the rest of the cast.

Yeah now that you mention it, there might be a few moves in there that are probably a tad too forced in such as the toy robot and all. And I suppose the animal buddies may suit Luke better if he ever where to be a character.

I did consider the idea of him being able to inflict status conditions towards his opponents though. With the sleep bomb being able to put his opponents to sleep. There where also other idea's such as confusion, paralysis etc I had in mind. I wasn't really sure how to fit those in.

The thing with focusing on his fencing ability though is that I'm not sure if it would really encapsulate the identity of the series as a whole. It would suit the Prof as an individual well, though assuming we get someone like Katrielle down the line that focuses more on the series core gameplay aspects. However, if he's going to be the series sole character down the line with no plans for future unique newcomers for the series, then it might be better to go for something that is a bit more universal and a larger part to the series as a whole.

I don't know, maybe that's just me...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Oy lads, special shout-out to Flyboy , as he came across an article that has Miyamoto himself bring up Layton.

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/07/...te-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/

Edit: Whose link needs to be fixed again.

 

[Flyboy]

Oy lads, special shout-out to Flyboy , as he came across an article that has Miyamoto himself bring up Layton.

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/07/...te-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/

Edit: Whose link needs to be fixed again.

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/07/...te-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/

Here you go!

 

[fogbadge]

hey thats something, miyamoto did suggest pacman for smash (without wishing to get ahead of myself)

 

[Curious Villager]

Oy lads, special shout-out to Flyboy , as he came across an article that has Miyamoto himself bring up Layton.

https://www.siliconera.com/2019/07/...te-questions-in-the-latest-investors-meeting/

Edit: Whose link needs to be fixed again.

Yeah Miyamoto is known for his respect of the Layton series. He mentioned it too a long time ago when praising it for helping to bring in a new female demographic into gaming along with Animal Crossing during the DS era.

Its great to hear that he still fully appreciates those series and their importance to Nintendo and the game's industry.

hey thats something, miyamoto did suggest pacman for smash (without wishing to get ahead of myself)

Here's hoping he suggested Layton to Sakurai too at one point. Fingers crossed.