Layton takes the case! The Professor Layton for Smash Ultimate support thread! New movesets added to OP, thank you for your contributions everyone!

Flyboy

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
3,217
Location
Dayton, OH
Started playing Layton Brothers today!
And MY OH MY THE MUSIC IS GREAT
It's kind of got an odd gameplay but it's really intuitive
Like a mix of Ace Attorney and Professor Layton :D
I haven't paid the other cases just yet but I'm gonna do it later, it's really cheap :)
Layton Brothers is AMAZING, one of my favorites! Great characters and awesome gameplay.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
That is true, though there have also been cases like Isabelle where the community is mad at a character who isn’t the final one just... because. I do hope that he would be Fighter 4 as well though, which I also feel might be more likely as it seems the fall is when Nintendo is targeting more casual fans with the Switch Mini and such. A Layton announcement could be a good way to get that demographic to buy the fighters pass as part of their first Switch experience? That my thought at least...



I mean, “exact same” was definitely self-destructive hyperbole on my part, but you can’t deny the two characters are more connected then most Smash requests. As we’ve mentioned before, they are basically holding up an entire genre together. It stands to reason that people who like said genre will enjoy both of the franchises currently producing games for it, nevermind the fact they’ve directly crossed over with each other before. They do have their individual fans as well, but there definitely is overlap and they developers have obviously payed into that shared fan base in their marketing and game directing (note how Mystery Journey doesn’t just borrow the case system from AA, but also the humour of having terrible pun names).

Joker and Hero, meanwhile, share a genre, sure, but also JRPGs are one of the biggest genres out there with Dragon Quest and Persona having opposing design philosophies - one aims to hold up the SNES era of JRPGs, while the other is half visual novel and has so many new features going on you could go for hours of gameplay without any turn-based battling whatsoever. If you like one you may like the other, but it’s not like they’re that similar.

I do think there are other duos that would have similar “problems” for sure (ex/ I don’t see a Crash and Spyro duo-reveal as being a good plan if they want to diversify their bases). They also may not care about trying to get as many people on-board as people, instead wanting to ensure that certain fans are catered to.

I also don’t think a solo Wright or Layton reveal would be bad for Layton or Wright fans, as I bet that one being revealed will just cause a migration of people into supporting the other.
Are people really still complaining about Isabelle? From what I've seen it was mostly about how boring her reveal trailer was or how they wanted to see other past Assist Trophies promoted over her but overall her complaints have more or less died down fairly quickly from what I've seen, like I've seen more complaints about Incineroar or Piranha Plant for that matter.

But yeah, I have that same line of thought too, especially as there are a lot of upcoming games that are popular with handheld gaming fans so there might be a good chance that the next Direct will be focusing on handheld gaming and target that audience for the upcoming Switch Lite. So a character like Layton would be perfect to reveal there. Not to mention the upcoming TGS on that same month where we might finally see the next installment in the Layton series revealed so the timing might match up pretty well too. Not to mention LMJ Deluxe coming very soon too.

I suppose they might have some overlap here and there, but overall they do have a different overall structure and gameplay going on for each series, with one focusing more on puzzles and mystery whereas the other focusing more on the Investigative elements and murder. I'd probably argue that Layton Brothers Mystery Room has more similarities with Ace Attorney than the main series Layton games do. Heck Layton's main inspiration was the Brain Training series after all. Though I think they did have some inspirations from Ace Attorney as far as writing structure went, although admittedly indeed more blatant with Layton's Mystery Journey as you said.

That being said, I do agree that both series have been making more and more nods and references towards each other as time went on, especially after the crossover, which may give both fandoms a bit more of an overlap with each other over time. However I don't know if they would necessarily appeal to both crowds as far as overall gameplay goes. I have seen some Ace Attorney fans not really enjoying the puzzle elements in the Layton series or Layton fans not really being able to get into the court sections from Ace Attorney. Its a bit of a double edged sword in that regard.

That being said, they probably do want to reach as large of a market as possible with this fighters pass which in that case, I do hope they do a second one so we'd still have a good chance in getting both characters.
 
Last edited:

AmphabulouSnake

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
86
Let's not forget that Curious Village remaster is supposedly coming to the Switch too ^^
Honestly I think the next general Nintendo direct will reveal the Professor Layton remastered trilogy (with CV, DB and UF) along with a reminder that LMJ deluxe is coming too.
I even thought of the title for the trilogy : "Professor Layton and the mysterious remastered Trilogy" x)
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
Let's not forget that Curious Village remaster is supposedly coming to the Switch too ^^
Honestly I think the next general Nintendo direct will reveal the Professor Layton remastered trilogy (with CV, DB and UF) along with a reminder that LMJ deluxe is coming too.
I even thought of the title for the trilogy : "Professor Layton and the mysterious remastered Trilogy" x)
Oh yeah that's right, we will probably also have Unwound/Lost Future HD for IOS revealed for Japan fairly soon, most likely either sometime this month or next month.
So yeah, we will probably be seeing quite a bit of Layton news pretty soon regardless.

Hopefully the HD remasters will indeed also be making their way to the Switch soon as well.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
5,119
Let's not forget that Curious Village remaster is supposedly coming to the Switch too ^^
Honestly I think the next general Nintendo direct will reveal the Professor Layton remastered trilogy (with CV, DB and UF) along with a reminder that LMJ deluxe is coming too.
I even thought of the title for the trilogy : "Professor Layton and the mysterious remastered Trilogy" x)
That's a great title.
people complain about isabelle? i thought they made jokes about her being a death god

or is that just my brother?
It's definitely not just your brother.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
Are people really still complaining about Isabelle? From what I've seen it was mostly about how boring her reveal trailer was or how they wanted to see other past Assist Trophies promoted over her but overall her complaints have more or less died down fairly quickly from what I've seen, like I've seen more complaints about Incineroar or Piranha Plant for that matter.
Things definitely calmed down, but there definitely was an initial saltstorm wherein people were debating if she was big enough to merit a Smash spot... Corrin is definitely the only character who has maintained original reaction saltiness to this day though. I mean, even #plantgang has become a thing.

But yeah, I have that same line of thought too, especially as there are a lot of upcoming games that are popular with handheld gaming fans so there might be a good chance that the next Direct will be focusing on handheld gaming and target that audience for the upcoming Switch Lite. So a character like Layton would be perfect to reveal there. Not to mention the upcoming TGS on that same month where we might finally see the next installment in the Layton series revealed so the timing might match up pretty well too. Not to mention LMJ Deluxe coming very soon too.
Yeah, I definitely agree on all of those fronts. This feels like prime Layton time.

inb4 Jibanyan

I suppose they might have some overlap here and there, but overall they do have a different overall structure and gameplay going on for each series, with one focusing more on puzzles and mystery whereas the other focusing more on the Investigative elements and murder. I'd probably argue that Layton Brothers Mystery Room has more similarities with Ace Attorney than the main series Layton games do. Heck Layton's main inspiration was the Brain Training series after all. Though I think they did have some inspirations from Ace Attorney as far as writing structure went, although admittedly indeed more blatant with Layton's Mystery Journey as you said.

That being said, I do agree that both series have been making more and more nods and references towards each other as time went on, especially after the crossover, which may give both fandoms a bit more of an overlap with each other over time. However I don't know if they would necessarily appeal to both crowds as far as overall gameplay goes. I have seen some Ace Attorney fans not really enjoying the puzzle elements in the Layton series or Layton fans not really being able to get into the court sections from Ace Attorney. Its a bit of a double edged sword in that regard.
Yeah, they aren't the same and most people definitely have preferences between them. Hino did say that Layton was inspired partly by Wright, though obviously the gameplay was inspired by Brain Age as you said and the vibe of the games is very much taken from the British Golden Era of Detective Fiction. Now that you mention Mystery Room, I do find it funny how the kids' games take much more from AA then the base games do though haha.

The fandoms definitely have an overlap, but I suppose I shouldn't discount that the internet fandom is only a sliver of the overall fandom - especially for Layton. So, online presence may not mean everything.

That being said, they probably do want to reach as large of a market as possible with this fighters pass which in that case, I do hope they do a second one so we'd still have a good chance in getting both characters.
Yeah, hopefully. Or they can just do standalone DLC after the pass and make them into a two-pack. :-D
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
Things definitely calmed down, but there definitely was an initial saltstorm wherein people were debating if she was big enough to merit a Smash spot... Corrin is definitely the only character who has maintained original reaction saltiness to this day though. I mean, even #plantgang has become a thing.



Yeah, I definitely agree on all of those fronts. This feels like prime Layton time.

inb4 Jibanyan



Yeah, they aren't the same and most people definitely have preferences between them. Hino did say that Layton was inspired partly by Wright, though obviously the gameplay was inspired by Brain Age as you said and the vibe of the games is very much taken from the British Golden Era of Detective Fiction. Now that you mention Mystery Room, I do find it funny how the kids' games take much more from AA then the base games do though haha.

The fandoms definitely have an overlap, but I suppose I shouldn't discount that the internet fandom is only a sliver of the overall fandom - especially for Layton. So, online presence may not mean everything.



Yeah, hopefully. Or they can just do standalone DLC after the pass and make them into a two-pack. :-D
>Isabelle
>Debating if she was big enough to merit a Smash spot

So where these people sleeping under a rock when Nintendo kept pushing her left and right ever since New Leaf came out? Then again, considering the Smash fanbase was also unaware of Rosalina's popularity and push by Nintendo, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised....

But yeah, people will eventually get over the salt. Believe it or not, but there was a time when people where complaining about Wolf being included back in Brawl, considering the saltstorm when he was cut from Smash 4, It's kind of hard to believe that was ever the case.

Corrin was really the only exception to this, though I'd imagine even for him people would have probably have gotten over it eventually if "everyone is here" wasn't a thing and they cut back on Fire Emblem characters a bit. And made female Corrin the default....

Dark Pit would have probably still had his old salt remaining too had they not introduced the concept of Echo fighters.


Yeah in terms of fandoms both sides seem to enjoy getting along with each other quite nicely (as well as the fandom of Ghost Trick I've noticed) Its like their own little fandom group. Though I suppose that can also be reflected between the relationship with Level-5 and Capcom, Hino did state that he was close friends with the guy's at Capcom and most likely particularly with the Ace Attorney dev's. Which would explain why both franchises drop a lot of nods and references towards each other.

Imagine if we got a Capcom vs Level-5 one day or Project X-Zone with Level-5 included, imagine a roster for that...
 

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
>Isabelle
>Debating if she was big enough to merit a Smash spot

So where these people sleeping under a rock when Nintendo kept pushing her left and right ever since New Leaf came out? Then again, considering the Smash fanbase was also unaware of Rosalina's popularity and push by Nintendo, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised....

But yeah, people will eventually get over the salt. Believe it or not, but there was a time when people where complaining about Wolf being included back in Brawl, considering the saltstorm when he was cut from Smash 4, It's kind of hard to believe that was ever the case.

Corrin was really the only exception to this, though I'd imagine even for him people would have probably have gotten over it eventually if "everyone is here" wasn't a thing and they cut back on Fire Emblem characters a bit. And made female Corrin the default....

Dark Pit would have probably still had his old salt remaining too had they not introduced the concept of Echo fighters.


Yeah in terms of fandoms both sides seem to enjoy getting along with each other quite nicely (as well as the fandom of Ghost Trick I've noticed) Its like their own little fandom group. Though I suppose that can also be reflected between the relationship with Level-5 and Capcom, Hino did state that he was close friends with the guy's at Capcom and most likely particularly with the Ace Attorney dev's. Which would explain why both franchises drop a lot of nods and references towards each other.

Imagine if we got a Capcom vs Level-5 one day or Project X-Zone with Level-5 included, imagine a roster for that...
i think a lot of fans are to quick to rule our characters that they dont like which is probably what was going on with isabelle

fandoms do seem to contradict themselves all the time

corrin feels like he just got lucky as he was the main character in the game they were all playing at the time

no, the salt of pitoo will never fade. never!


it is nice that we all get on, kind of refreshing amongst all the competing fandoms

i do like the idea of, layton, wright, yo-kai watch and megaman getting together but we'll be stuck with all those overrated ones as well
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
i think a lot of fans are to quick to rule our characters that they dont like which is probably what was going on with isabelle

fandoms do seem to contradict themselves all the time

corrin feels like he just got lucky as he was the main character in the game they were all playing at the time

no, the salt of pitoo will never fade. never!


it is nice that we all get on, kind of refreshing amongst all the competing fandoms

i do like the idea of, layton, wright, yo-kai watch and megaman getting together but we'll be stuck with all those overrated ones as well
I think that's a common thing with a lot of characters, until people reflect back on them in retrospect.


Pretty much yes.

Also apparently Level-5 acquired Comcept (the company that did Mighty Number 9) so I guess hypothetically we could technically see Megaman and Beck meet up as well if there was a Level-5 vs Capcom.... Whether that's a good or bad thing will probably depend on whoever is still interested in that series I guess....
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
Also apparently Level-5 acquired Comcept (the company that did Mighty Number 9) so I guess hypothetically we could technically see Megaman and Beck meet up as well if there was a Level-5 vs Capcom.... Whether that's a good or bad thing will probably depend on whoever is still interested in that series I guess....
well theres an interesting thing to learn, well beck's turning up as a quest yo-kai

maybe as an outfit in the next layton
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
well theres an interesting thing to learn, well beck's turning up as a quest yo-kai

maybe as an outfit in the next layton
>Imagine Katrielle in Call's outfit.

Level-5 acquired Comcept in 2017 and the studio was renamed as Level-5 Comcept so it wasn't too long ago, so who knows how they will handle things going forward.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
>Isabelle
>Debating if she was big enough to merit a Smash spot

So where these people sleeping under a rock when Nintendo kept pushing her left and right ever since New Leaf came out? Then again, considering the Smash fanbase was also unaware of Rosalina's popularity and push by Nintendo, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised....
I KNOW, RIGHT!?!?! Isabelle even "personally" runs the Animal Crossing Twitter account. The Smash fandom is insane, but I swear that was an actually multiple-page long argument in the Smash speculation thread...

But yeah, people will eventually get over the salt. Believe it or not, but there was a time when people where complaining about Wolf being included back in Brawl, considering the saltstorm when he was cut from Smash 4, It's kind of hard to believe that was ever the case.
Wow, really? I missed that entirely, but I suppose it makes sense given his semi-clone nature. Remember when all clones were considered a waste of time and now people are actively hoping for an Echo Fighter DLC Pass? Ah, times are changing.

Corrin was really the only exception to this, though I'd imagine even for him people would have probably have gotten over it eventually if "everyone is here" wasn't a thing and they cut back on Fire Emblem characters a bit. And made female Corrin the default....

Dark Pit would have probably still had his old salt remaining too had they not introduced the concept of Echo fighters.
Yeah, true. It's almost funny how Corrin gets the salt versus the other FE cast, given how Corrin has an especially unique moveset. You joke, but I am honestly shocked male Corrin survived as the default skin, given how she's the default in basically every other FE property.

Echo fighters really saved the day for a lot of characters...

Yeah in terms of fandoms both sides seem to enjoy getting along with each other quite nicely (as well as the fandom of Ghost Trick I've noticed) Its like their own little fandom group. Though I suppose that can also be reflected between the relationship with Level-5 and Capcom, Hino did state that he was close friends with the guy's at Capcom and most likely particularly with the Ace Attorney dev's. Which would explain why both franchises drop a lot of nods and references towards each other.
True for sure. They work well together and operate in the same genre, so it makes sense they'd be friends and their respective fandoms would be too.

Imagine if we got a Capcom vs Level-5 one day or Project X-Zone with Level-5 included, imagine a roster for that...
I've been speculating about a PXZ3 for Switch for a while now and Level-5 joining is definitely one of my main wants. Get Layton in, get Yokai Watch, Ni No Kuni... Expand Nintendo's presence if possible... I also really want a hypothetical sequel to focus on cross-franchise pairings - give us Layton and Wright as a unit, give us Bayonetta and Dante, etc.

A Capcom vs Level-5 would be a lot of fun as well, but maybe we should wait until the Capcom fighting game developers have regrouped before hoping for that... As Marvel vs Capcom Infinite and base game Street Fighter V sure were technically video games.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
certainly something to keep an eye on
Yeah indeed.
Apparently Keiji Inafune has been working on this little mobile gacha RPG game ever since Comcept was acquired by Level-5
It's called Dragon & Colonies and I suppose its a start as his first project under Level-5 (Well first under their ownership, Keiji Inafune did work on a little game called Bugs vs Tanks with Level-5 beforehand a while back) especially after the disasters that were Mighty Number 9 and Red Ash, it may be for the best if he left the financial funding over to Level-5 rather than with a kickstarter campaign..

I KNOW, RIGHT!?!?! Isabelle even "personally" runs the Animal Crossing Twitter account. The Smash fandom is insane, but I swear that was an actually multiple-page long argument in the Smash speculation thread...



Wow, really? I missed that entirely, but I suppose it makes sense given his semi-clone nature. Remember when all clones were considered a waste of time and now people are actively hoping for an Echo Fighter DLC Pass? Ah, times are changing.



Yeah, true. It's almost funny how Corrin gets the salt versus the other FE cast, given how Corrin has an especially unique moveset. You joke, but I am honestly shocked male Corrin survived as the default skin, given how she's the default in basically every other FE property.

Echo fighters really saved the day for a lot of characters...



True for sure. They work well together and operate in the same genre, so it makes sense they'd be friends and their respective fandoms would be too.



I've been speculating about a PXZ3 for Switch for a while now and Level-5 joining is definitely one of my main wants. Get Layton in, get Yokai Watch, Ni No Kuni... Expand Nintendo's presence if possible... I also really want a hypothetical sequel to focus on cross-franchise pairings - give us Layton and Wright as a unit, give us Bayonetta and Dante, etc.

A Capcom vs Level-5 would be a lot of fun as well, but maybe we should wait until the Capcom fighting game developers have regrouped before hoping for that... As Marvel vs Capcom Infinite and base game Street Fighter V sure were technically video games.
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, the fandom does tend to stay in its own little bubble without really thinking outside of the box, especially since Sakurai doesn't solely consider what's popular within Smash circles but also what's popular outside of it, be it with nintendo or gaming in general. But I guess that's just me...

Yeah back in Brawl there was a particular vocal support for Krystal so a lot of fans where upset when Wolf was chosen over her, that as well as back then the term "semi-clone" wasn't quite a thing yet and most Smash fans used to focus solely on a characters special moves and Final Smash over their entire kit. So Wolf was mocked particularly for that as well, not to mention the Landmaster meme that spawned due to all Starfox characters sharing the same Final Smash as well.

I was a bit surprised as well that they didn't switch the default gender for Corrin considering how considerably more popular and marketed the female counterpart was compared to the male one.

Yeah its pretty nice, maybe one day Nintendo could revive the Famicom Detective Club series as well, I'd imagine the Layton and Ace Attorney fandoms enjoying that series too, as well as the return of Ayumi Tachibana.

I never played PXZ myself outside of a demo but the concept sounds interesting, if they ever decide to expand on the companies involved too then I'd love to see Level-5 become a part of it too.

Oh what are the dev's up to these days? Are they still working on the DLC's and whatnot for the other games?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, the fandom does tend to stay in its own little bubble without really thinking outside of the box, especially since Sakurai doesn't solely consider what's popular within Smash circles but also what's popular outside of it, be it with nintendo or gaming in general. But I guess that's just me...
Smash community logic is very impressive sometimes.

Yeah back in Brawl there was a particular vocal support for Krystal so a lot of fans where upset when Wolf was chosen over her, that as well as back then the term "semi-clone" wasn't quite a thing yet and most Smash fans used to focus solely on a characters special moves and Final Smash over their entire kit. So Wolf was mocked particularly for that as well, not to mention the Landmaster meme that spawned due to all Starfox characters sharing the same Final Smash as well.
Ahhhhhhhhhh, right. That makes some sense I suppose, even if Wolf is a cool character who is especially good for padding out the rosters notable lack of villains. The landmaster final Smash could have used a change for sure though.

I was a bit surprised as well that they didn't switch the default gender for Corrin considering how considerably more popular and marketed the female counterpart was compared to the male one.
Yeah. I guess they really wanted to stick to their guns.

Yeah its pretty nice, maybe one day Nintendo could revive the Famicom Detective Club series as well, I'd imagine the Layton and Ace Attorney fandoms enjoying that series too, as well as the return of Ayumi Tachibana.
That would be fantastic! We'd have an entire third game in that genre. It'd also be nice to see the fan support for Ayumi turn into something.

I never played PXZ myself outside of a demo but the concept sounds interesting, if they ever decide to expand on the companies involved too then I'd love to see Level-5 become a part of it too.
Fair! It is a fun enough game, though I would say it is a bit into having a deep original lore when I would have been sastified with just "Multiverse collapsed lol." Hopefully we do get an expansive sequel of some sort...

Oh what are the dev's up to these days? Are they still working on the DLC's and whatnot for the other games?
Yeah, Street Fighter V is still getting DLC - which most people agree has improved the game, which was kind of a mess on launch. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, meanwhile, is dead. There have been constant rumors (initially reported by Vergeben) that it is actually going to go under a rebranding and will continue to get DLC (with Apollo Justice weirdly listed as one of the DLC characters, without Phoenix Wright), but those rumors haven't come true and I doubt they will at this point. Which is probably good, as MvCI is kind of structurally bad... We don't know what the team is doing next, but hopefully they're reviewing their basic fighting game design strategies.

while i cant speak for the rest of the fandom, i my case its cause hes such a bland character, personality wise i mean
That is fair. I do get not loving him as a FE character, but he's still pretty unique by the standard of FE characters within Smash.
 
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
780
Yeah, Street Fighter V is still getting DLC - which most people agree has improved the game, which was kind of a mess on launch. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite, meanwhile, is dead. There have been constant rumors (initially reported by Vergeben) that it is actually going to go under a rebranding and will continue to get DLC (with Apollo Justice weirdly listed as one of the DLC characters, without Phoenix Wright), but those rumors haven't come true and I doubt they will at this point. Which is probably good, as MvCI is kind of structurally bad... We don't know what the team is doing next, but hopefully they're reviewing their basic fighting game design strategies.
Considering he's a credible leaker I think it's pretty likely that this was considered for a real project but it never really went into full production.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
Considering he's a credible leaker I think it's pretty likely that this was considered for a real project but it never really went into full production.
Yeah, that's the general theory. It's possible Disney/Marvel backed out after the game reviewed poorly and "undersold" (even if it objectively solid incredibly well), or that they are currently working on incorporating the planned DLC into a proper sequel feature revised mechanics and a better artstyle.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
amageish amageish
I think it would be interesting to see Ayumi and Katrielle have a cross over game of their own one day though who knows if that would ever happen unless Nintendo where to one day decide to revive the IP...

i can definitely see the Layton and Ace Attorney fans taking a liking to the Famicom Detective Club series if it where to ever come back though.
Or just fans of the genre in general.

i see, I guess the team behind MvsC might eventually get their hands free fairly soon, would be interesting to see what they will be doing next.

yeah it is a pretty unique moveset, though when 4 out of 7 of them are based around the same moveset it isnt hard, i feel the fire emblem characters need an over hall
Yeah Fire Emblem in general is a tad messy in Smash. I guess that's probably one of the drawbacks when you are mainly focusing on the next flavor of the month. Pokemon is also kind of getting a tad repetitive/predictable despite almost all of them having unique movesets, they mainly prioritise humanoid/starter pokemon with a set archetype thrown in rather than taking advantage of the unique creature design's themselves. But that's probably just me...

And then there is Zelda that is kind of stuck in a limbo of its own. At least the stages are solid though and I'm happy they brought them all back for Ultimate.
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
amageish amageish
Yeah Fire Emblem in general is a tad messy in Smash. I guess that's probably one of the drawbacks when you are mainly focusing on the next flavor of the month. Pokemon is also kind of getting a tad repetitive/predictable despite almost all of them having unique movesets, they mainly prioritise humanoid/starter pokemon with a set archetype thrown in rather than taking advantage of the unique creature design's themselves. But that's probably just me...

And then there is Zelda that is kind of stuck in a limbo of its own. At least the stages are solid though and I'm happy they brought them all back for Ultimate.
i think fire emblem should focus on a couple of the main characters from the most popular games to at least try and get a bit more variety. pokemon's in an odd place it started off with largely focusing on the popular ones but due to the timing of the last two games theyve gone for whoever sakurai thought looked cool and when includes characters liked piranha plant it makes you wonder why he doesnt go for more adventurous pokemon to include like mimikyu. its not just you inceneroar is all wrestler very little pokemon

zelda really is in an odd place, the games with their largely changing cast of characters would make you think he unwilling to put in characters who may not be sticking around in series, cause he got burned by shiek or something, but then hes perfectly willing to do with other series
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
12,457
Location
Somewhere in the West.
Sometimes I wonder why interviewers never ask Sakurai what his reasoning is behind some series not changing.

I mean, what is stopping him from going after popular Pokémon picks? Or any Zelda character beyond the triad (Shiek still counts)? Or any FE character that's a non-lord/avatar?

At least IS finally had the foresight to add more variety amongst the latest batch of lords, and the majority of TH lords are fan favorites...
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
i think fire emblem should focus on a couple of the main characters from the most popular games to at least try and get a bit more variety. pokemon's in an odd place it started off with largely focusing on the popular ones but due to the timing of the last two games theyve gone for whoever sakurai thought looked cool and when includes characters liked piranha plant it makes you wonder why he doesnt go for more adventurous pokemon to include like mimikyu. its not just you inceneroar is all wrestler very little pokemon

zelda really is in an odd place, the games with their largely changing cast of characters would make you think he unwilling to put in characters who may not be sticking around in series, cause he got burned by shiek or something, but then hes perfectly willing to do with other series
Fire Emblem is probably one of those examples where you where probably better off going for someone else over the main protagonist all the time. Its only in recent years where IS decided to put more of an effort into making their protagonists a bit more diverse over the same old sword lord from whatever the most recent game is over and again.

Yeah, I've kind of been getting a bit burned out with the Pokemon cast too as its been becoming increasingly more clear that Sakurai mainly just goes with whatever concept art of the starter pokemon he gets handed out by GF or whatever fighting archetype he can fill with them, heck, I think he outright admitted that he mainly went for Incineroar because he just wanted to do a pro wrestler type moveset for a character.

The fact that GF keeps on churning out new generations of pokemon games more frequently than they used to probably also adds to the fact that Sakurai can't see which new Pokemon are actually popular and has to take a shot in the dark every time. He got lucky with Greninja and that it naturally became very popular, but fell a bit short with Incineroar.

Zelda is indeed quite stuck in an odd place of its own as its a bit of a mix between having an established cast of characters, but also not having a fully recurring cast at the same time. I guess he's mainly been trying to make that up with the large stage selection instead. Though it might also be because there is a large variety of Zelda characters supported for Smash that he can't really decide on which one to include, but that's just my shot in the dark.

Sometimes I wonder why interviewers never ask Sakurai what his reasoning is behind some series not changing.

I mean, what is stopping him from going after popular Pokémon picks? Or any Zelda character beyond the triad (Shiek still counts)? Or any FE character that's a non-lord/avatar?

At least IS finally had the foresight to add more variety amongst the latest batch of lords, and the majority of TH lords are fan favorites...
Yeah it would be interesting if one interviewer dared to ask him about these kind of details. I think he once answered something to that extend as to why he didn't include Krystal back in Brawl, he had a pretty specific answer to that if I recall.

I don't know if Sakurai ever commented in being interested in using a character from certain companies though (Or at least not until after the fact) I'd be interested to hear if there are any third party companies he ever wished to include a character from but never had the chance/got around to it for any reason. I know he considered a number of characters though.
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
Fire Emblem is probably one of those examples where you where probably better off going for someone else over the main protagonist all the time. Its only in recent years where IS decided to put more of an effort into making their protagonists a bit more diverse over the same old sword lord from whatever the most recent game is over and again.

Yeah, I've kind of been getting a bit burned out with the Pokemon cast too as its been becoming increasingly more clear that Sakurai mainly just goes with whatever concept art of the starter pokemon he gets handed out by GF or whatever fighting archetype he can fill with them, heck, I think he outright admitted that he mainly went for Incineroar because he just wanted to do a pro wrestler type moveset for a character.

The fact that GF keeps on churning out new generations of pokemon games more frequently than they used to probably also adds to the fact that Sakurai can't see which new Pokemon are actually popular and has to take a shot in the dark every time. He got lucky with Greninja and that it naturally became very popular, but fell a bit short with Incineroar.

Zelda is indeed quite stuck in an odd place of its own as its a bit of a mix between having an established cast of characters, but also not having a fully recurring cast at the same time. I guess he's mainly been trying to make that up with the large stage selection instead. Though it might also be because there is a large variety of Zelda characters supported for Smash that he can't really decide on which one to include, but that's just my shot in the dark.
thats my thinking, just stick with a couple of the sword users like marth and chrom and then go for major characters with something else they can bring to the table like tiki or lissa

no he did say he went for inceneroar cause he wanted a wrestler and for some reason the other nintendo wrestlers werent good enough

to be fair the time in between each new gen is still about roughly the same, 3 years, with the only exceptions being between 3&4 and 4&5

or maybe his just doesnt like zelda
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
thats my thinking, just stick with a couple of the sword users like marth and chrom and then go for major characters with something else they can bring to the table like tiki or lissa

no he did say he went for inceneroar cause he wanted a wrestler and for some reason the other nintendo wrestlers werent good enough

to be fair the time in between each new gen is still about roughly the same, 3 years, with the only exceptions being between 3&4 and 4&5

or maybe his just doesnt like zelda
Recurring and popular characters like Tiki would have worked quite fine.

Oh yeah, but yeah, Rythm Heaven Wrestler would have probably been interesting to see by mixing Wrestling with rythm based moves.

Is it? I used to remember there being a bit of a larger gap, at least between gen 3 and 4, as well as 4 and 5. Considering how much bigger in scope the games are getting, and the current state of Sw/Sh, it may be for the best if they gave each gen a larger gap again. At least make it 4 years instead of the usual 3.

Eeeeh... maybe, maybe not, people also said that about DK and Metroid, until he went all out in Ultimate so eh...
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
Recurring and popular characters like Tiki would have worked quite fine.

Oh yeah, but yeah, Rythm Heaven Wrestler would have probably been interesting to see by mixing Wrestling with rythm based moves.

Is it? I used to remember there being a bit of a larger gap, at least between gen 3 and 4, as well as 4 and 5. Considering how much bigger in scope the games are getting, and the current state of Sw/Sh, it may be for the best if they gave each gen a larger gap again. At least make it 4 years instead of the usual 3.

Eeeeh... maybe, maybe not, people also said that about DK and Metroid, until he went all out in Ultimate so eh...
exactly tiki would have be ideal

yeah, even the other wrestling pokemon hawlucha would of had some flying elements mixed in rather than just being a straight up wrestler

yeah longer developing times makes sense for pokemon going forward, the scope has reached quite a scale they need to give themselves more breathing room

well it is just the paranoid parts of my brain saying that
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
I think it would be interesting to see Ayumi and Katrielle have a cross over game of their own one day though who knows if that would ever happen unless Nintendo where to one day decide to revive the IP...

i can definitely see the Layton and Ace Attorney fans taking a liking to the Famicom Detective Club series if it where to ever come back though.
Or just fans of the genre in general.
That would be very interesting if Nintendo brings the IP back. It doesn't sound too farfetched that they would cross over given Nintendo's closeness with Level-5, but Miyamoto seeming calling the genre unprofitable isn't a good sign for Famicom Detective Club getting upgraded to Switch Detective Club...

i see, I guess the team behind MvsC might eventually get their hands free fairly soon, would be interesting to see what they will be doing next.
Well, as far as we're offically aware, they have their hands free. Question is if the ever-present rumors turn out to be true...
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
That would be very interesting if Nintendo brings the IP back. It doesn't sound too farfetched that they would cross over given Nintendo's closeness with Level-5, but Miyamoto seeming calling the genre unprofitable isn't a good sign for Famicom Detective Club getting upgraded to Switch Detective Club...



Well, as far as we're offically aware, they have their hands free. Question is if the ever-present rumors turn out to be true...
The issue with the genre is localization cost, which is a very risky business if you can't guarantee returns. The Layton series alone not only has the main story to worry about in terms of localization. But also all the puzzles and hints as well. Some are even outright replaced with other puzzles between regions if they don't make sense in certain countries and cultures. Which is why the series used to (and probably still do) take so long to release outside of Japan.

It's a very text heavy series. So I guess its good that the series managed to be as popular as it did. If it wasn't, it probably would have ended around the DS era too like with most other games in the genre.

Even with Ace Attorney some of the games don't seem to make it overseas despite the series popularity outside of Japan, though admittedly the series hasn't quite managed to get the same amount of success as the Layton series did. Though from what I've heard, apparently Capcom may not want to release any games if it doesn't feature Phoenix since apparently the first Ace Attorney Investigations didn't do as well and there was backlash when they brought in Apollo as the new protagonist, though that seems to be mostly speculation from fans.

I guess only time will tell.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
12,457
Location
Somewhere in the West.
In regards to male Corrin as default, they simply keep it out of habit, like how most characters' movesets have barely changed since a few games ago, or even the start of the series. No particular programming reasons, they just do it. This shouldn't even be a surprise.

Also, Isabelle complaints? You sure wouldn't see that here anymore, her thread doesn't have much activity these days. People move on to bandwagon about hating someone else, as usual. Besides, I saw her as likely due to her popularity anyways, so I'm not bothered by her inclusion in the slightest. The only cited reasons people were against her were "she's too adorable to be injured!" and "she's a pacifist!". In other words, worthless excuses.

As for Pokémon, I don't think TPC is going to give GF a break any time soon, especially if they want to keep up the hype and merchandising going. That's going to hurt them in the long run.

The issue with the genre is localization cost, which is a very risky business if you can't guarantee returns. The Layton series alone not only has the main story to worry about in terms of localization. But also all the puzzles and hints as well. Some are even outright replaced with other puzzles between regions if they don't make sense in certain countries and cultures. Which is why the series used to (and probably still do) take so long to release outside of Japan.

It's a very text heavy series. So I guess its good that the series managed to be as popular as it did. If it wasn't, it probably would have ended around the DS era too like with most other games in the genre.

Even with Ace Attorney some of the games don't seem to make it overseas despite the series popularity outside of Japan, though admittedly the series hasn't quite managed to get the same amount of success as the Layton series did. Though from what I've heard, apparently Capcom may not want to release any games if it doesn't feature Phoenix since apparently the first Ace Attorney Investigations didn't do as well and there was backlash when they brought in Apollo as the new protagonist, though that seems to be mostly speculation from fans.

I guess only time will tell.
Nippon Ishi's US branch does dare to take a stab on VNs, as evidenced with the Silver Case and the 25th Ward (and the former specifically was challenging to bring to the West for years), but I'm not sure if a collab with them would be possible.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
In regards to male Corrin as default, they simply keep it out of habit, like how most characters' movesets have barely changed since a few games ago, or even the start of the series. No particular programming reasons, they just do it. This shouldn't even be a surprise.

Also, Isabelle complaints? You sure wouldn't see that here anymore, her thread doesn't have much activity these days. People move on to bandwagon about hating someone else, as usual. Besides, I saw her as likely due to her popularity anyways, so I'm not bothered by her inclusion in the slightest. The only cited reasons people were against her were "she's too adorable to be injured!" and "she's a pacifist!". In other words, worthless excuses.

As for Pokémon, I don't think TPC is going to give GF a break any time soon, especially if they want to keep up the hype and merchandising going. That's going to hurt them in the long run.



Nippon Ishi's US branch does dare to take a stab on VNs, as evidenced with the Silver Case and the 25th Ward (and the former specifically was challenging to bring to the West for years), but I'm not sure if a collab with them would be possible.
I mean, they do refresh some veterans design's from time to time. Most notable with the Zelda cast, but also with Metroid, Starfox etc. They also switched R.O.B. default colours post Brawl to match up with its western design (in Western releases of course though)

Though in case of Corrin, it might have probably been easier to leave them as is instead of switching their files around just for the sake of it. Both the male and female variants got an amiibo too eitherway. (I still want an amiibo of Ultimate Zelda though....:ultzelda:)

The worst part about that argument is that some people are apparently still using that against Layton, or that he's too "gentlemanly" for Smash. Because apparently a sweet secretary puppy lady is totally different.... Also tell that to Dudley from Street Fighter.

I guess they could work as well.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
12,457
Location
Somewhere in the West.
So, people are hating on Layton now, huh.

I say let them hate, vocal negative complaints will just give attention that Layton needed, since outsiders will notice what the hubbub is about, get curious about the character and check out their games. And maybe even support them for Smash.

Because, as we all know, hate bandwagoning has always kept the objects of their hatred out, amirite? :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
10,324
Location
London
3DS FC
5413-1097-4150
So, people are hating on Layton now, huh.

I say let them hate, vocal negative complaints will just give attention that Layton needed, since outsiders will notice what the hubbub is about, get curious about the character and check out their games. And maybe even support them for Smash.

Because, as we all know, hate bandwagoning has always kept the objects of their hatred out, amirite? :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie:
I guess a character gaining a group of detractors over time goes to show that their becoming more popular or that things are looking up for them, otherwise, they wouldn't have much reason to bother with them whatsoever.

Which is a good sign that our voices are being heard bit by bit over time. Guess we'll probably have to press on in that case.

I do wish these kind of folks would bring up some actual valid arguments to the table instead of nitpicky "rules" that won't last long...
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
6,582
Location
Scotland
I guess a character gaining a group of detractors over time goes to show that their becoming more popular or that things are looking up for them, otherwise, they wouldn't have much reason to bother with them whatsoever.


I do wish these kind of folks would bring up some actual valid arguments to the table instead nitpicky "rules" that won't last long...
i dont think they ever really need a reason

it is interesting how people still hang to those rules when theyre all fan made
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
The issue with the genre is localization cost, which is a very risky business if you can't guarantee returns. The Layton series alone not only has the main story to worry about in terms of localization. But also all the puzzles and hints as well. Some are even outright replaced with other puzzles between regions if they don't make sense in certain countries and cultures. Which is why the series used to (and probably still do) take so long to release outside of Japan.

It's a very text heavy series. So I guess its good that the series managed to be as popular as it did. If it wasn't, it probably would have ended around the DS era too like with most other games in the genre.

Even with Ace Attorney some of the games don't seem to make it overseas despite the series popularity outside of Japan, though admittedly the series hasn't quite managed to get the same amount of success as the Layton series did. Though from what I've heard, apparently Capcom may not want to release any games if it doesn't feature Phoenix since apparently the first Ace Attorney Investigations didn't do as well and there was backlash when they brought in Apollo as the new protagonist, though that seems to be mostly speculation from fans.
Those are all very good points... It's definitely a more expensive to bring over a full text-based adventure game including voice-acted cutscenes then a game where you run right and jump on occasion, especially with the linguistic puzzles...

Ooooooh. I hadn't heard that theory about AA games, but it makes a tragic amount of sense...

Nippon Ishi's US branch does dare to take a stab on VNs, as evidenced with the Silver Case and the 25th Ward (and the former specifically was challenging to bring to the West for years), but I'm not sure if a collab with them would be possible.
True. It is interesting that games that are spookier and horror-y seem to have higher chances of getting localized - I mean, the upcoming Spike Chunsoft game AI: The Somnium Files seems to be advertised almost primarily in English, which is impressive. I don't expect any of those to work with Layton though - sure, Layton mysteries have included death, but I don't think they'll go that far haha.

I guess a character gaining a group of detractors over time goes to show that their becoming more popular or that things are looking up for them, otherwise, they wouldn't have much reason to bother with them whatsoever.

Which is a good sign that our voices are being heard bit by bit over time. Guess we'll probably have to press on in that case.

I do wish these kind of folks would bring up some actual valid arguments to the table instead of nitpicky "rules" that won't last long...
Is there any character in Smash Bros who didn't have a dedicated anti-fan group at this point? The only one I can think of is Inkling, who people seemed to agree was inevitable enough that even non-Splatoon fans seemed to give up before deciding to complain...

Fan rules keep on dying at impressive rates...
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
5,119
True. It is interesting that games that are spookier and horror-y seem to have higher chances of getting localized - I mean, the upcoming Spike Chunsoft game AI: The Somnium Files seems to be advertised almost primarily in English, which is impressive. I don't expect any of those to work with Layton though - sure, Layton mysteries have included death, but I don't think they'll go that far haha.
AI has the advantage that the director's previous work (the Zero Escape games) was very popular in the West - the guy clearly has a grasp on Western sensibilities, and has a great localization team.

However, I think there's a good point there with horror-toned games having an easier time being localized. Maybe it's because horror by itself is a genre and therefore publishers don't feel like they have to bank on the game selling just to visual novel fans but also to horror fans? Or it could be that, with the indie horror game boom of the YouTube age, maybe people are used to horror games being budget titles and therefore they sell better? Or maybe horror by its nature tends to tone down the anime style that turns Westerners off of visual novels?

'Tis an interesting topic that you have brought up.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
787
AI has the advantage that the director's previous work (the Zero Escape games) was very popular in the West - the guy clearly has a grasp on Western sensibilities, and has a great localization team.

However, I think there's a good point there with horror-toned games having an easier time being localized. Maybe it's because horror by itself is a genre and therefore publishers don't feel like they have to bank on the game selling just to visual novel fans but also to horror fans? Or it could be that, with the indie horror game boom of the YouTube age, maybe people are used to horror games being budget titles and therefore they sell better? Or maybe horror by its nature tends to tone down the anime style that turns Westerners off of visual novels?

'Tis an interesting topic that you have brought up.
True! AI is also directly appealing to the YouTube culture of horror games with its ARG-esque channel and Tesa's Twitter account. Like, full disclosure, I probably wouldn't care for the game as much as I do if one of my friends hadn't roped me into watching her channel and lead to me getting attached to her as a character. His name recognition got him an audience, but he definitely has found a good niche to target.

I definitely think the point about horror being a defined genre is a major factor. It's also one that lends itself to the VN genre easily, both in terms of localized Japanese games and cheaper indie games *cough Doki Doki Literature Club cough*. It fits well and is easily marketable, as most people will get the pitch of "spooky dating sim" or "Japanese SAW," while explaining "game with puzzle minigames found in a VN-style world with a lot of plot twists and a story that feels like it is from the Golden Age of Detective Fiction" is a bit more complicated. Not unknowable by any means, but more complicated.

I also could see this being a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy too. Games like Zero Escape and Danganronpa have proven that there is an audience for horror VNs with puzzle elements, therefore those are the only ones that get localized and there isn't much of a chance for fans to try new things, so they stick to buying the horror VNs that are localized, even if they would buy a general mystery game.
 
Top