Late Aerials on Shield -> Grab (some questions)

[RipChuckSchuldiner]

Hi there (hopefully) superior players,

I play in a region of relatively bad players, in the great white north. Because of this, and because I like to hit stuff I am trying to add some new tricks to my "nice shield grab nerd" repertoire.
I know that late up air, and late knee are frame positive for my grab vs. they grab, but I often end up buffer light shield to get grabbed to get rekt.
I was wondering if there's a way around this, attempts in the lab seem to show that only waiting out the landing lag to be effective but that's hella scary.
I get told baiting a shield grab is a bad idea, but it seems that there's some situations it would be greatly helpful (coming up from the ledge with an aerial, any time some fox decides to run up shield -> grab, etc.)

Basically, I'd like to know:
A) How can I do it better
and
B) Is it a good idea

Thanks a lot,
cheers.

 

[Traivlin]

I can't tell you if it's a good idea, I'm still too bad to answer that question, but I just want to ask: do you press the trigger completely in to L-cancel?

I'd suggest spending a little bit of time in 20xx (press down on the dpad for infinite shields and L + left on the dpad to get the cpu shielding) or with a training partner and just practice late aerials on shield.
If you press L or R lightly you should still have enough time to fully release it after a late aerial.

 

[protato]

xxxxxxxxxx

 

[RipChuckSchuldiner]

Ya I was experimenting with the 20xx stuff,
so if uair is +0, would grab range have a significant impact on outcome?
like vs marth would i get grabbed first as opposed to like pikachu?
or does it come down to priority entirely.
thanks for quick responses

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Ya I was experimenting with the 20xx stuff,
so if uair is +0, would grab range have a significant impact on outcome?
like vs marth would i get grabbed first as opposed to like pikachu?
or does it come down to priority entirely.
thanks for quick responses

When you get +0 on shield, that just means that you have time to run outside of even Marth's grab range. What it doesn't mean is being able to do what you want against them. Obviously anything negative on shield means that the opponent can counterattack. So if your asking if grab range would matter if you get +0 on shield, no it shouldn't.

You are correct that the two main aerials that are not negative on shield are the Uair and Knee (Fair). What you're trying to do is not really a late Uair or Knee but a Uair or Knee that is low on shield. You don't have to necessarily be at the lowest possible point, but you have to visually see that you did it low on shield. The reason that I made the clarification is that for example, in order to get the +1 on shield, you have to get the hard knee low on shield, but a late knee on shield is getting the soft knee on shield. I just wanted to make sure that you knew the difference. The benefits of Knee on shield is that you get +1 on shield. This enables you to jab or grab (at least) afterwards for pressure or to open up your opponent.

While you only have two aerials that are not negative on shield, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't ever be afraid to use another aerial on shield. This just means that you have to keep in mind your positioning when using another aerial in order to try to avoid numerous punishing options. Just don't become predictable with it.

Also, if light shield is coming out, that just means that your holding the button, whether it's L, R, or Z, too long while trying to L-cancel your aerials. Keep in mind that hitting a shield with an aerial can change the timing for the L-cancel due to the hitlag. Practice the L-cancel timing of aerials in many different situations, such as hitting a shield, an opponent, or just hitting an opponent. Also, practice it while landing on platforms from below or above while adding in the previous three situations. Eventually, having light shield come out should not be an issue anymore.

Edit: Also, yes this can be a good idea, but it's not just to bait shield grabs (in the case of the hard knee). What people are saying when it's a bad idea to bait a shield grab, they mean that there are other ways to punish someone other than shield grabbing, and as you get better, more people that you play will take advantage of these options and punish you for trying to just bait a shield grab. It just becomes another option rather than your strongest. As of right now though, it sounds like you can get away with it in your region for a while. Good luck to you and your region for getting better.

 

[タオー]

Also, trying to grab to early out of landing lag can cause your light shield to come up instead of grab.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Also, trying to grab to early out of landing lag can cause your light shield to come up instead of grab.

Forgot about that. Yes, the grab has to be timed after the latest animation in order to do the grab, which is the landing lag. This is a common mistake for beginners. I know I experienced this for a while.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Shield + Attack for grab means you'll never accidentally light shield. Rather than just try Knee-grab or uair grab until you've learned a habit of theirs to keep shielding, or use OoS options a touch slow, or conditioned them to not press buttons, you should just work on spacing and drifting such that you can't be hit by their OoS options if you stand still, and then react and punish accordingly, or move to a safe or advantageous position and apply more pressure. Or just grab when you see shield.

Feel free to practice this, but this probably shouldn't be the first thing you go for in a match since it automatically loses to buffer roll/spot-dodge (which both take 0 timing on their part).

+/- on shield just means who gets to do another action first by how many frames, + meaning you act first, - meaning they act first.
They're still limited by what options they can actually do out of shield, and shielding limiting mobility while you remain free if you don't shield. Grabs are frame 7 at best, and for a lot of characters, this is the fastest out of shield option. With that said, shield DI allows them to combat even the best spacing, but no one's extremely good at that yet, so don't feel like any effort invested into spacing is wasted. Yet.

If you're more confident in your knee-grab timing than their shield grab speed, go for it, assuming you think they'll shield grab.

 

[RipChuckSchuldiner]

Thanks a lot all!
just a quick side-note,
if jab is active on frame 3, it should catch buffer roll (which is invincible on frame 4 iirc)?
I've used jab as a poor man's shine before, but it just puts you back at a huge frame disadvantage if they continue shielding.
Basically it seems like best case scenario is a 50/50 on shield, or run away and reset to neutral.

Also this is my first thread, so should I close it if this isn't any new info? It's really hard to grind through hundreds of pages of the giant guides.