Last DLC Pack has divided the community.

[Saikyoshi]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask. Are you saying that people disappointed by a character's inclusion as DLC are necessarily greedy? Or is it something more than that?

It's okay to be disappointed. What it's not okay to be is angry and spiteful, which is what I see a hell of a lot more often than "disappointed" when it comes to character discussion in general.

SSBU has the third-largest roster out of any fighting game in the world, I believe, behind only DBZ: Budokai Tenkaichi 3 and Ｍ.U.G.E.N. The amount of characters we've gotten so far is unimaginable. So while it's fine to want someone or not like someone, it's not fine to scream and whine and harass the people working on the game about a square on your character select screen when you have over eighty other squares to pick.

 

[staindgrey]

They've driven me crazy enough to dread a fifth Super Smash Bros. game being announced at all. When that Inkling teaser happened, I practically broke down in tears—not because I had any opinion on Inkling, but because I thought I was finally free from speculation hell only for that hope to be stomped into the dirt.

You know you can, like, not participate. Right.

 

[Saikyoshi]

You know you can, like, not participate. Right.

That doesn't stop me from being surrounded by it. Even during that period when I wasn't playing the games at all, I still couldn't escape it.

I'm not talking about me participating in the arguments, I'm talking about me getting caught in the crossfire.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

It's okay to be disappointed. What it's not okay to be is angry and spiteful, which is what I see a hell of a lot more often than "disappointed" when it comes to character discussion in general.

SSBU has the third-largest roster out of any fighting game in the world, I believe, behind only DBZ: Budokai Tenkaichi 3 and Ｍ.U.G.E.N. The amount of characters we've gotten so far is unimaginable. So while it's fine to want someone or not like someone, it's not fine to scream and whine and harass the people working on the game about a square on your character select screen when you have over eighty other squares to pick.

Okay, then I definitely agree with you. I'm all for discussing and even expressing dislike, but the moment you start harassing people because of it, or harassing the people who worked on the game is when you cross the line and reveal yourself to be kind of a PoS.

 

[staindgrey]

That doesn't stop me from being surrounded by it. Even during that period when I wasn't playing the games at all, I still couldn't escape it.

I hope this doesn't come off as condescending because I truly don't mean for it to be.

But if the community's speculation on roster decisions works you up so much that you "practically break down in tears" at the reveal of a new game, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet in places where the community speculates on roster decisions?

Just my two cents.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I hope this doesn't come off as condescending because I truly don't mean for it to be.

But if the community's speculation on roster decisions works you up so much that you "practically break down in tears" at the reveal of a new game, maybe you shouldn't be on the internet in places where the community speculates on roster decisions?

Just my two cents.

That would involve me either not talking to anyone anywhere or only going to communities that are anti-Nintendo. You underestimate how ubiquitous Smash really is.

Believe me when I say I've tried that numerous times already.

 

[staindgrey]

That would involve me either not talking to anyone anywhere or only going to communities that are anti-Nintendo. You underestimate how ubiquitous Smash really is.

Believe me when I say I've tried that numerous times already.

Just seems like a very dramatic and defeatist attitude that doesn't fit the true severity of the situation, but you do you.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Just seems like a very dramatic and defeatist attitude that doesn't fit the true severity of the situation, but you do you.

Spoiler: Shortened because I cannot shut up

Look. You're probably not going to believe me when I say this, but I am physically incapable of enjoying something without discussing it. I'm the type of person where if I have to bottle up my excitement about something, that excitement dies, and I have a lot of trouble getting interested in things at all, even more trouble holding onto that interest, so I need that to happen as little as possible. I have almost zero control over what I like.
What problems I have don't excuse my acting like an asshole in the past, I will fully own up that I have acted like a gigantic asshole in the past—realizing how I'd been acting is a significant part of the reason I left this place for several years. But I can't pretend my issues don't exist and just resist how my haywire brain swings me around like a cheap ragdoll.

I know this game and any game is a mere hobby and not important in the grand scheme of things. But when you lose interests and sink into total apathy as easily as I do, and are desperate to escape that total apathy however you can, you need all the hobbies you can keep in your slippery fingers.

I'm trying to reduce the stress in my life, but when one of the few things that consistently relieves it also considerably adds onto it on a regular basis, I'm kind of stuck. That's the reason I take how toxic this fandom can get so hard. I just want to play a game and forget about my life for a little while, but everyone's too busy screaming at each other all the time.

This isn't the only fandom I have problems of this nature with, if you think the problem is an obsession with this series specifically. It feels like everyone around me everywhere is always at each others' throats about something, and somehow, I always end up getting dragged right into the middle, and as a result, things that really should not impact me at all end up piling on my shoulders. That I can't get any relief with things that don't matter makes me feel that much worse about the things that do actually matter; if I wasn't stressed about my hobbies, I'd be stressed about college, work, family, philosophy, politics. For me, the little things that I manage to enjoy are a redirection from my overthinking about things that will just send me spiraling, and as a result, I tend to pool all my stress into one place that drains or fills up as one whole. That is why I take fandom behavior so seriously—as worked up as I can get with fandoms, issues like the roster can be drained a hell of a lot easier than issues like the nature of human existence.

I'm sorry for the personal rant. My point is, I need outlets, but any outlets I find tend to get shorted out by people being angry all around me. Because when everyone else is angry, I can't not be angry.

I'm saying my situation is a little unorthodox, basically, and yes, I am seeing a psychiatrist and therapist.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Spoiler: Shortened because I cannot shut up

Look. You're probably not going to believe me when I say this, but I am physically incapable of enjoying something without discussing it. I'm the type of person where if I have to bottle up my excitement about something, that excitement dies, and I have a lot of trouble getting interested in things at all, even more trouble holding onto that interest, so I need that to happen as little as possible. I have almost zero control over what I like.
What problems I have don't excuse my acting like an asshole in the past, I will fully own up that I have acted like a gigantic asshole in the past—realizing how I'd been acting is a significant part of the reason I left this place for several years. But I can't pretend my issues don't exist and just resist how my haywire brain swings me around like a cheap ragdoll.

I know this game and any game is a mere hobby and not important in the grand scheme of things. But when you lose interests and sink into total apathy as easily as I do, and are desperate to escape that total apathy however you can, you need all the hobbies you can keep in your slippery fingers.

I'm trying to reduce the stress in my life, but when one of the few things that consistently relieves it also considerably adds onto it on a regular basis, I'm kind of stuck. That's the reason I take how toxic this fandom can get so hard. I just want to play a game and forget about my life for a little while, but everyone's too busy screaming at each other all the time.

This isn't the only fandom I have problems of this nature with, if you think the problem is an obsession with this series specifically. It feels like everyone around me everywhere is always at each others' throats about something, and somehow, I always end up getting dragged right into the middle, and as a result, things that really should not impact me at all end up piling on my shoulders. That I can't get any relief with things that don't matter makes me feel that much worse about the things that do actually matter; if I wasn't stressed about my hobbies, I'd be stressed about college, work, family, philosophy, politics. For me, the little things that I manage to enjoy are a redirection from my overthinking about things that will just send me spiraling, and as a result, I tend to pool all my stress into one place that drains or fills up as one whole. That is why I take fandom behavior so seriously—as worked up as I can get with fandoms, issues like the roster can be drained a hell of a lot easier than issues like the nature of human existence.

I'm sorry for the personal rant. My point is, I need outlets, but any outlets I find tend to get shorted out by people being angry all around me. Because when everyone else is angry, I can't not be angry.

I'm saying my situation is a little unorthodox, basically, and yes, I am seeing a psychiatrist and therapist.

Fandoms are the worst, always turning the simplest thing into a big conflicted mess. Remember though that being a fan of something doesn't mean you have to be part of a toxic fandom. Plenty of decent people in any community or even outside of the community that you can talk to about things.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

I think Byleth is cool. Although it's hard for me to be disappointed about characters in this game, I understand others' disappointment though.

I also don't think the number of Fire Emblem characters is that big of an issue. Yes, it would be nice if Marth Roy Chrom and Lucina played more different from each other, but I still don't find it to be a big deal.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Oh yeah, the richest complaint I've seen about Byleth is people calling them "another Marth clone".

Like... name literally ONE ATTACK that they share with Marth. Or any of the other FE characters, for that matter.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Oh yeah, the richest complaint I've seen about Byleth is people calling them "another Marth clone".

Like... name literally ONE ATTACK that they share with Marth. Or any of the other FE characters, for that matter.

Clone in what way? Their attacks certainly aren't similar, but their appearance? I can certainly see the resemblance between blue haired protagonists.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Clone in what way? Their attacks certainly aren't similar, but their appearance? I can certainly see the resemblance between blue haired protagonists.

"They has sword so they no different, durr hurr"

Really, if Byleth's moveset resembles anyone else at all, it's Azwel from Soul Calibur 6.

(...and with that, now I totally have to make a Byleth custom character there.)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Like... name literally ONE ATTACK that they share with Marth. Or any of the other FE characters, for that matter.

-Foward-Tilt with Roy, Chrom, and Robin
-Up-Tilt with Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom.

What's my prize?

 

[AEMehr]

-Foward-Tilt with Roy, Chrom, and Robin
-Up-Tilt with Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom.

What's my prize?

Nothing because the animations and hitboxes for all these moves are different :U
I guess you could compare the hitboxes w/ lucina to be similar (though lucina up tilt has a sweet/sour spot when byleth does not and his is just bigger/slower too).

- - - -
character is neat but not who i wanted

its okay though because we got 4 cool additions prior, have another 6 on the way, and byleth is fun to play as.
not much you can ask for beyond that for them imo

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Nothing because the animations and hitboxes for all these moves are different :U
I guess you could compare the hitboxes w/ lucina to be similar (though lucina up tilt has a sweet/sour spot when byleth does not and his is just bigger/slower too).

- - - -
character is neat but not who i wanted

its okay though because we got 4 cool additions prior, have another 6 on the way, and byleth is fun to play as.
not much you can ask for beyond that for them imo

this exactly how I feel, glad I'm not the only one lol

 

[SpaceCrystal]

It's okay to be disappointed. What it's not okay to be is angry and spiteful, which is what I see a hell of a lot more often than "disappointed" when it comes to character discussion in general.

SSBU has the third-largest roster out of any fighting game in the world, I believe, behind only DBZ: Budokai Tenkaichi 3 and Ｍ.U.G.E.N. The amount of characters we've gotten so far is unimaginable. So while it's fine to want someone or not like someone, it's not fine to scream and whine and harass the people working on the game about a square on your character select screen when you have over eighty other squares to pick.

I agree. We have the following involved:

• 75 regular characters (6 of them being DLC plus another 6 DLC characters on the way for a total of 81),
• 7 Echo characters (being Dark Samus, Daisy, Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit, Ken & Richter),
• 14 alt characters (being Female Pokemon Trainer, Alph, Male Wii Fit Trainer, Female Robin, Female Corrin, Male inkling, Larry Koopa, Morton Koopa, Lemmy Koopa, Ludwig Koopa, Roy Koopa, Iggy Koopa, & Wendy O. Koopa, & Female Byleth),
• & 108 stages (with another 6 stages on the way).

Everyone from Smash Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 are back, as well as almost all stages from Smash 1-4 & Smash 3DS. And 14 of the characters are 3rd party (consisting of Banjo & Kazooie, Terry, Pac-Man, Ryu, Ken, Mega Man, Solid Snake, Simon, Richter, Sonic, Bayonetta, Joker, Cloud & Hero), & of course, we'll be getting some more on top in the near future).

Everyone should be enjoying it, because something like this will never happen again in which the majority of the cast will no doubt be wiped out on the next Smash title, & the best that we can have is a port of Ultimate with all of the DLC cast, spirits & spirit events included on Switch's successor.

 

[Lenidem]

I agree. We have the following involved:

• 75 regular characters (6 of them being DLC plus another 6 DLC characters on the way for a total of 81),
• 7 Echo characters (being Dark Samus, Daisy, Lucina, Chrom, Dark Pit, Ken & Richter),
• 14 alt characters (being Female Pokemon Trainer, Alph, Male Wii Fit Trainer, Female Robin, Female Corrin, Male inkling, Larry Koopa, Morton Koopa, Lemmy Koopa, Ludwig Koopa, Roy Koopa, Iggy Koopa, & Wendy O. Koopa, & Female Byleth),
• & 108 stages (with another 6 stages on the way).

Everyone from Smash Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 are back, as well as almost all stages from Smash 1-4 & Smash 3DS. And 14 of the characters are 3rd party (consisting of Banjo & Kazooie, Terry, Pac-Man, Ryu, Ken, Mega Man, Solid Snake, Simon, Richter, Sonic, Bayonetta, Joker, Cloud & Hero), & of course, we'll be getting some more on top in the near future).

Everyone should be enjoying it, because something like this will never happen again in which the majority of the cast will no doubt be wiped out on the next Smash title, & the best that we can have is a port of Ultimate with all of the DLC cast, spirits & spirit events included on Switch's successor.

Yes. But when we talk about a new character, we talk about this specific character. Not the veterans, not the alt, not the stages. The fact that Ultimate is a good/great game doesn't mean that everything is perfect. Some people might go too far and say that things like ''the game sucks because of one single character'', which is stupid. But other people need to accept that criticize specific aspects of something (or someone) you globaly love is totally fine.

 

[Folt]

Yes. But when we talk about a new character, we talk about this specific character. Not the veterans, not the alt, not the stages. The fact that Ultimate is a good/great game doesn't mean that everything is perfect. Some people might go too far and say that things like ''the game sucks because of one single character'', which is stupid. But other people need to accept that criticize specific aspects of something (or someone) you globaly love is totally fine.

They can criticize something all they want, but they shouldn't expect to not have their opinions be criticized in turn if that opinion can in fact be criticized itself.

 

[Lenidem]

They can criticize something all they want, but they shouldn't expect to not have their opinions be criticized in turn if that opinion can in fact be criticized itself.

I didn't say that. I said that saying ''you shouldn't be unhappy about Byleth because everyone is here and hundredth of stages and more DLC'' makes no sense. Of course, you can disagree with me. But then tell me why, don't just tell me you have the right to disagree (of course you do).

 

[Phoenixio]

I really don't get why there's so much hate on Byleth. Have people forgotten how popular Marth and Roy were in Melee BECAUSE they were swordfighters? And people in America might not care about Fire Emblem quite as much, but FE is huge in Japan. It's not surprising at all that they'd take one of their bestselling games on this console, even if it's aimed more towards the Japanese players. I'm certain they were having questions too when Banjo was added (whereas for me, it was like the second coming or so). Plus they made Byleth really different. Same for Robin, Corin and Ike, which were all representing top selling games. We even had Roy go from full clone to somewhat unique character. And they're still quite fun to play, and personally I like FE-only fights, the same way I like Poke-only fights.

The mistake with FE was Lucina and Chrom. They should have been skins, because they added visual confusion (they're not as unique looking as the other FE characters), and they don't have original movesets. Take those out of the equation, and people would be rejoiced to see a fighter like Byleth.

I do agree with the sentiment that there's been quite a few too many "realistic" characters as of late. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but I hope we get more cartoony characters too in the next DLC. Swordfighters to me don't matter too much, as swords are clearly the most popular types of weapons in nowadays depictions of medieval warfare. But there's opportunities to switch it up a bit. I'm hopeful they'll add Travis Touchdown, with his new game coming out soon and being heavily represented on Nintendo devices. His Beam-Katana is quite unique, despite technically being a sword. Or to go into the more cartoony, Husk from Hollow Knight would be quite great, with his "sword", Nail, being short ranged, but complemented by other abilities like in the game. So long as sword users don't overpower all characters due to longer range, and that we see some variety in execution, swords aren't inherently bad. Hell, I'd even be rejoiced to see the baton/sword/gun from Astral Chain, that'd be a pretty neat and similar execution to Byleth.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Have people forgotten how popular Marth and Roy were in Melee BECAUSE they were swordfighters?

Melee was over twenty years ago. Since then we've had more than plenty swordfighters, it should be easy to understand why some people want a break from them.

but FE is huge in Japan.

So is Dragon Quest, Kirby, Animal Crossing....
I don't see the point in your argument here. Most of Nintendo's games are huge in Japan, including the ones that don't sell quite as well outside of Japan. Selling well outside of the west is not exclusive to Fire Emblem.

Take those out of the equation, and people would be rejoiced to see a fighter like Byleth.

You're putting words in a lot of people's mouths, mind you. I don't think anyone would feel any happier about Byleth if those two got removed, because it's a lot more than that. It's Fire Emblem's history of throwing characters into Smash for the sake of advertising, and Byleth is part of that unfortunately. Removing Roy and Corrin and making Chrom and Lucina skins of Marth would lower the density of FE characters and make the remaining four stand out more and seem more unique. While I don't like the idea of removing characters for any reason, it's undeniable that the bloated amount of FE content in Smash will automatically take away from the appeal of future FE fighters regardless of where they come from or what's in their moveset.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I reiterate: I would have loved to see how you people would have fared if sent back to the year 2005, or the year 2000.
*creaky old man voice* back in MYYYYY dayyy we only had TWELVE characters, we didn't treat nobody bein' there and not bein' there as a gosh-durned social justice issue, and gosh durnit we LIKED it

...I'm actually only barely exaggerating about the "social justice issue" part. People actually do argue speculations with the fervor of a debate on human rights, sometimes even LITERALLY TYING THEIR WISHLIST TO HUMAN RIGHTS DEBATES, and from my point of view that's at best really messed up and at worst disgusting.

For instance, Lip is probably one of the few characters I can genuinely say that I absolutely don't want to see in the game ever, because I don't want to see her one biggest fan satisfied after he did things like accusing Sakurai of being sexist over putting in Pac-Man over her, and also blabbering about Lip in a depression support thread where people were actually trying to get help. I AM BEING DEAD SERIOUS WHEN I SAY EVERY WORD OF THAT. But even if Lip or Sceptile (my second least-wanted) DID get in, it's not Nintendo or Sakurai I would be getting mad at in that case, it's the people who have been such jerks over those characters I'd be getting mad at because I know they'd love to rub it in my face.

So is it any wonder why I'm a little disillusioned when it comes to character wishlist and "representation" discussions? I have seen just how bad they can potentially get.

By the way, I am so, so, SO sick of that word. "Representation". It's got to be the single most overused and misused word in this fandom where nobody seems to know what it actually means, even more than "clone" and "competitive" are just thrown around by people who have no idea what those things actually are. And really, what the heck does "representation" matter, anyway? News flash: a franchise having more characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as better, and a franchise having less characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as worse. Stop taking other series having more playable characters as a personal insult towards your own favorite games.

I wonder how much of that I've been holding in for how many years. Yes, I am aware if the irony in my getting unreasonably angry over people getting unreasonably angry.

I would also like to make clear that I'm not responding to any person directly or indirectly in this post. That rant's been bubbling up for a while.
If I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry. Sometimes I legitimately can't remember what I have and haven't said.

 

[Phoenixio]

So is Dragon Quest, Kirby, Animal Crossing....
I don't see the point in your argument here. Most of Nintendo's games are huge in Japan, including the ones that don't sell quite as well outside of Japan. Selling well outside of the west is not exclusive to Fire Emblem.

Removing Roy and Corrin and making Chrom and Lucina skins of Marth would lower the density of FE characters and make the remaining four stand out more and seem more unique. While I don't like the idea of removing characters for any reason, it's undeniable that the bloated amount of FE content in

For sure those series can be popular, but they are nowhere near Fire Emblem. Maybe Dragon Quest can compete (and win), but that's third party. And then again, Hero is like a mix of swordfighters and Robin, and yet nobody is complaining. Because he comes from a beloved series, and he was picked specifically for the japanese audience. Much like the Fire Emblem characters.

I'm not saying to get rid of Lucina and Chrom. More to imagine a timeline where they never were added to the game. So people would have seen Marth/Roy, then essentially one addition per generation in Ike, Robin, Corin, and now Byleth. All very different, all from a beloved series (and from particularly popular titles within that series), much like the numerous pokemons, and maybe soon street fighters. All of this translates to less hate. And good for the people that see past this "mistake" and actually enjoy the new characters.

Because let's be real, Nintendo will prioritize characters from its own franchises. I'm surprised we got this many third party characters. And then you get Byleth, from a top selling game, and it was an obvious choice. Now the next 6 certainly aren't as obvious, and I'm quite curious to see where the game is going. But hate or not, I'm a casual gamer, and I'm rejoiced at every addition they make to this splendid game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I reiterate: I would have loved to see how you people would have fared if sent back to the year 2005, or the year 2000.
*creaky old man voice* back in MYYYYY dayyy we only had TWELVE characters, we didn't treat nobody bein' there and not bein' there as a gosh-durned social justice issue, and gosh durnit we LIKED it

...I'm actually only barely exaggerating about the "social justice issue" part. People actually do argue speculations with the fervor of a debate on human rights, sometimes even LITERALLY TYING THEIR WISHLIST TO HUMAN RIGHTS DEBATES, and from my point of view that's at best really messed up and at worst disgusting.

For instance, Lip is probably one of the few characters I can genuinely say that I absolutely don't want to see in the game ever, because I don't want to see her one biggest fan satisfied after he did things like accusing Sakurai of being sexist over putting in Pac-Man over her, and also blabbering about Lip in a depression support thread where people were actually trying to get help. I AM BEING DEAD SERIOUS WHEN I SAY EVERY WORD OF THAT. But even if Lip or Sceptile (my second least-wanted) DID get in, it's not Nintendo or Sakurai I would be getting mad at in that case, it's the people who have been such jerks over those characters I'd be getting mad at because I know they'd love to rub it in my face.

So is it any wonder why I'm a little disillusioned when it comes to character wishlist and "representation" discussions? I have seen just how bad they can potentially get.

By the way, I am so, so, SO sick of that word. "Representation". It's got to be the single most overused and misused word in this fandom where nobody seems to know what it actually means, even more than "clone" and "competitive" are just thrown around by people who have no idea what those things actually are. And really, what the heck does "representation" matter, anyway? News flash: a franchise having more characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as better, and a franchise having less characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as worse. Stop taking other series having more playable characters as a personal insult towards your own favorite games.

I wonder how much of that I've been holding in for how many years. Yes, I am aware if the irony in my getting unreasonably angry over people getting unreasonably angry.

I would also like to make clear that I'm not responding to any person directly or indirectly in this post. That rant's been bubbling up for a while.
If I'm repeating myself, I'm sorry. Sometimes I legitimately can't remember what I have and haven't said.

What does this have to do with Byleth, the topic of this thread?

 

[Folt]

I didn't say that. I said that saying ''you shouldn't be unhappy about Byleth because everyone is here and hundredth of stages and more DLC'' makes no sense. Of course, you can disagree with me. But then tell me why, don't just tell me you have the right to disagree (of course you do).

You don't get me at all. I said that they can be as unhappy as they want, but they shouldn't expect to have many sympathize with them when we get a roster as huge as this, packed to the brim with characters a lot of people like, get a pass of which the majority of the characters are liked, and then throw a fit when they get one character they don't like.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

For sure those series can be popular, but they are nowhere near Fire Emblem. Maybe Dragon Quest can compete (and win),

Do you even know what you're talking about? At the very least Fire Emblem and Kirby are on equal footing in Japan. Both of them are received better in Japan than outside of it, but keep in mind for the majority of its lifetime Fire Emblem remained overall one of Nintendo's niches up until 2012 when Awakening came out and the series exploded. Before that, it reached a point of irrelevancy where Nintendo told IS that if their next game (which would be Awakening) didn't perform well they would kill the franchise. This never happened to any of the other series I named.

But Dragon Quest? Come on, man. "Maybe Dragon Quest can compete" Bullcrap. Of course Dragon Quest can compete. Fire Emblem, Kirby, and Animal Crossing are all practically nothing compared to Dragon Quest. It's one of Japan's largest and oldest video game icons to date. If we're being realistic there could have been DQ characters in Smash as far back as Melee.

but that's third party.

So? It's pretty clear at this point most companies are open to working with Nintendo. Being a third party hasn't stopped anyone from getting into Smash so far.

And then again, Hero is like a mix of swordfighters and Robin, and yet nobody is complaining.

There were a lot of people complaining, actually. More people than Joker, at the very least. People were disappointed that the second DLC fighter was another JRPG character and not someone else--ever heard of "Hoes mad?" I remember having to point out in a thread that despite anyone's feelings about Hero, no one can deny that of them comes the anime swordfighter who started it all, so they deserve a lot of credit. There are even still people complaining today, just look around.

 

[Lenidem]

You don't get me at all. I said that they can be as unhappy as they want, but they shouldn't expect to have many sympathize with them when we get a roster as huge as this, packed to the brim with characters a lot of people like, get a pass of which the majority of the characters are liked, and then throw a fit when they get one character they don't like.

I totally get you. If someone criticizes one aspect of Ultimate, he's ''throwing a fit'' at the whole game. No nuance allowed.

 

[Saikyoshi]

What does this have to do with Byleth, the topic of this thread?

I did get a little derailed again, didn't I... damn it...
Anyway, the part that most relates to Byleth is my problem with the whole "representation" thing, since that seems to be what the core of peoples' problems with the character are. They see Fire Emblem having so many characters as a great injustice and a personal insult towards other franchises, a sentiment that I do not sympathize with even slightly.

I would also like to reiterate that this is a recurring pattern with basically every single new character. In my eyes, Byleth only made people start noticing what had already been going on for years. Hell, this isn't even the worst reaction to a DLC character in terms of hostility—Hero gets that honor, followed closely by Bayonetta. (With the latter specifically, I very, very clearly remember the echoing screams of "Sakurai is deliberately ignoring the ballot".) This is just the one that spread out the farthest.
Reactions to Byleth specifically are the symptom, not the disease. It being Byleth is largely irrelevant, because many people here would be reacting the exact same way regardless of what character it was. That is my point. This is just history repeating itself again and again and again, like having to listen to a broken record that's been playing for seven years without a break.

 

[Lenidem]

I did get a little derailed again, didn't I... damn it...
Anyway, the part that most relates to Byleth is my problem with the whole "representation" thing, since that seems to be what the core of peoples' problems with the character are. They see Fire Emblem having so many characters as a great injustice and a personal insult towards other franchises, a sentiment that I do not sympathize with even slightly.

I would also like to reiterate that this is a recurring pattern with basically every single new character. In my eyes, Byleth only made people start noticing what had already been going on for years. Hell, this isn't even the worst reaction to a DLC character in terms of hostility—Hero gets that honor, followed closely by Bayonetta. (With the latter specifically, I very, very clearly remember the echoing screams of "Sakurai is deliberately ignoring the ballot".) This is just the one that spread out the farthest.
Reactions to Byleth specifically are the symptom, not the disease. It being Byleth is largely irrelevant, because many people here would be reacting the exact same way regardless of what character it was. That is my point. This is just history repeating itself again and again and again, like having to listen to a broken record that's been playing for seven years without a break.

Smash Bros. is a cross-over. And like every cross-over, if one component takes too much place compared to others, it feels like an equilibrium has been broken. That's my only complain about Pokémon and Fire Emblem characters: they take too much place. Of course, the amount of place one component can take is debatable.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I would also like to direct people's attention to this link right here, if you felt cheated by the Fighter's Pass auto-downloading Byleth:
https://en-americas-support.nintend...795/~/how-to-remove-previously-downloaded-dlc

It won't put another character in their place or give you a refund, but with this you at least dont have to look at Byleth on your CSS and you can pretend Fighter's Pass 1 had only four characters.

I also strongly suggest going into the game settings and setting Echo Fighters to "stacked". Poof, two more FE characters are out of your CSS, making FE take up less squares than Legend of Zelda.

 

[Phoenixio]

Do you even know what you're talking about? At the very least Fire Emblem and Kirby are on equal footing in Japan. Both of them are received better in Japan than outside of it, but keep in mind for the majority of its lifetime Fire Emblem remained overall one of Nintendo's niches up until 2012 when Awakening came out and the series exploded. Before that, it reached a point of irrelevancy where Nintendo told IS that if their next game (which would be Awakening) didn't perform well they would kill the franchise. This never happened to any of the other series I named.

Why are people on here so often jump to aggressive tones? I wrote an opinion based on my perception, no need to be rude. I'm not privy to insider knowledge of Nintendo's financials, but neither are you. I do know Fire Emblem had its ups and downs, but look at their recent mobile-gaming revenue: more than 60% is from Fire Emblem Heroes alone. It alone beats 3 Mario games and an Animal Crossings game together, in term of revenue. Units wise, Awakening sold 1.3 millions copies, and Fates 1.8 million. Guess how many for Three Houses? 2.6 millions, and it's not even a year old. The best Kirby game in those years sold what, 1.3 million? There's no denying FE is a big franchise. People on here might not care for it, but there's a huge demand for the franchise too, and maybe even more so in Japan than here. And it really doesn't matter how the franchise behaved before, as it actually got more popular post Marth/Roy and got its first American/European releases afterwards, and then exploded with Awakening. What matters is how it behaves now, because SMBUltimate is happening now.

But Dragon Quest? Come on, man. "Maybe Dragon Quest can compete" Bullcrap. Of course Dragon Quest can compete.

You're clearly not even reading the end of my sentence. No need to be outraged, I explicitly wrote that DQ would win.

Being a third party hasn't stopped anyone from getting into Smash so far.

Being third party makes a huge difference, why would you deny this? They only started having those in Brawl (and it was a close friend of Sakurai that insisted on Solid Snake which said developer friend owned...), and we have NO IDEA what happens behind the scenes for those arrangements. Cloud barely had any content in Ultimate, so I wouldn't go as far as saying that it causes no issues. And most of the companies that have playable characters have extended history with Nintendo already.

There were a lot of people complaining, actually. More people than Joker, at the very least. People were disappointed that the second DLC fighter was another JRPG character and not someone else--ever heard of "Hoes mad?"

Probably a perception difference here yet again, but what I saw was tons of people complaining about the RNG, not so much about the nature of the character. Because people were happy it was a character from DQ, even more so that it had so many skins from its most popular games. Then again, I'm fairly new to this forum, so I'm not quite used to the very vocal minority that posts on here.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I would also like to direct people's attention to this link right here, if you felt cheated by the Fighter's Pass auto-downloading Byleth:
https://en-americas-support.nintend...795/~/how-to-remove-previously-downloaded-dlc

It won't put another character in their place or give you a refund, but with this you at least dont have to look at Byleth on your CSS and you can pretend Fighter's Pass 1 had only four characters.

I also strongly suggest going into the game settings and setting Echo Fighters to "stacked". Poof, two more FE characters are out of your CSS, making FE take up less squares than Legend of Zelda.

Pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it go away. DMC fans have been pretending DMC2 doesn't exist for over a decade, and they're still trying to sell it to us.

News flash: a franchise having more characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as better, and a franchise having less characters doesn't mean it's seen by Nintendo as worse. Stop taking other series having more playable characters as a personal insult towards your own favorite games.

Better? Maybe not. Additional characters to existing series in Smash does seem to be a sign that their series has recently or is going to get some love soon though. Would certainly explain why we've never seen another F-Zero character, as it's as good as dead.

Units wise, Awakening sold 1.3 millions copies, and Fates 1.8 million. Guess how many for Three Houses? 2.6 millions, and it's not even a year old. The best Kirby game in those years sold what, 1.3 million?

Triple Deluxe and Star Allies both sold around 2.56 million copies.
Awakening sold around 2.28 million, Fates 2.94 million, and 3H, around the 2.6 you gave. I'd say a range between 2 and 3 million puts FE and Kirby about in the same ballpark.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Why are people on here so often jump to aggressive tones?

Fair enough, I'm sorry. I had such an egregious first impression of the post that I was a little too aggresive.

but look at their recent mobile-gaming revenue: more than 60% is from Fire Emblem Heroes alone. It alone beats 3 Mario games and an Animal Crossings game together, in term of revenue.

If you mean revenue by in-app purchases, I fail to see how that's relevant. In app-purchases are just a statistic of how much people who already own the game are willing to spend on more content. As far as units go, Heroes is a free game, and it's pretty hard to beat a $0 price tag for an app game versus a $40 DS game or a $60 switch game (unless there's some premium or full version that I'm unaware of).

Units wise, Awakening sold 1.3 millions copies, and Fates 1.8 million. Guess how many for Three Houses? 2.6 millions, and it's not even a year old. The best Kirby game in those years sold what, 1.3 million?

Both of the Kirby DS games sold in the 2.5 million range and Star Allies has sold around 2.3 million last time Nintendo reported. So it's pretty fair game.

Before any of this gets out of hand I'm not trying to host a pissing contest between Kirby and FE, I just used Kirby as an example. The bigger picture is that a lot of people are annoyed that FE is getting exponentially more attention from both Nintendo and Sora Ltd. than other IPs of comparatively equal status. With that in mind, it's perfectly reasonable that someone might be annoyed that a fighters' pass full of unexpected surprises would be topped off with another anime prettyboy from Fire Emblem with the personality of a doorknob.

There's no denying FE is a big franchise.

I never said that.

Anyway, here's something I've noticed: People say that FE is a big franchise. I agree. But since Melee, when they needed sales, they would add FE characters to jump-start the games. Here's the pattern I'm seeing from Nintendo:
"The next Fire Emblem game is going to need sales, so lets add another character from the series into Smash!"
"Fire Emblem is selling well, so lets add another character from the series into Smash!"

Like, where do they draw the line? Is a game doing poorly? Add an advertisement fighter. Is it doing successful? Add a character to please the fans. Why aren't they like this for, I don't know, literally every other Nintendo series? FE is clearly a big seller, so why is it still using Smash as a crutch? Why did Nintendo think it was necessary to add Byleth to push Three Houses when it was pretty clear the game was projected to sell well already? Were they worried it would receive mediocre reviews like Fates did? I just don't get their decision making process anymore.

Being third party makes a huge difference, why would you deny this? They only started having those in Brawl (and it was a close friend of Sakurai that insisted on Solid Snake which said developer friend owned...), and we have NO IDEA what happens behind the scenes for those arrangements. Cloud barely had any content in Ultimate, so I wouldn't go as far as saying that it causes no issues. And most of the companies that have playable characters have extended history with Nintendo already.

I should have clarified. My point was that being a third party character alone has never been reason enough for either Nintendo or Sakurai to jump the gun on a character. Obviously there are legal hassles, but there's no indication that they would ever say no to a character simply because they're owned by another company.

 

[Folt]

I totally get you. If someone criticizes one aspect of Ultimate, he's ''throwing a fit'' at the whole game. No nuance allowed.

Too bad people aren't even doing that sarcastically anymore, eh?