Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[JayBee]

sup Bolt. long time no see...

 

[II Bolt II]

sup Bolt. long time no see...

I know right? It has been a while. How goes school? Hows teh Sonic going?

 

[da K.I.D.]

about the spin style comment.

i dont think thats espys style as much as it was just espy adapting to the situation. if you look at espy vs mikeHAZE set 3 games 1 through 3 you can literally see espys mind working coming to the conclusion that spindash in general ***** mike haze, and even tho the character marth has all the tools needed to completely shut down spin dash, his matchup inexperience was showing and it was more a fact of espy capitalising on mikes lack of ability to beat it rather than just espys level of skill in the actual usage of the spindashes

which shows that having a style and certain habits will always be suboptimal to unpredictablity and proper adaptation to ones current situation.

espy usually doesnt spindash that much.

 

[JayBee]

about the spin style comment.

i dont think thats espys style as much as it was just espy adapting to the situation. if you look at espy vs mikeHAZE set 3 games 1 through 3 you can literally see espys mind working coming to the conclusion that spindash in general ***** mike haze, and even tho the character marth has all the tools needed to completely shut down spin dash, his matchup inexperience was showing and it was more a fact of espy capitalising on mikes lack of ability to beat it rather than just espys level of skill in the actual usage of the spindashes

which shows that having a style and certain habits will always be suboptimal to unpredictablity and proper adaptation to ones current situation.

espy usually doesnt spindash that much.

true on all of that. the thing is, i havent seen his spin dash style so there was a strong possibility of it not being on the level of malcolm, for example. i saw a lot of cancels which was what made me notice it more. i think i mentioned about the fact that he did adapt between his usual game and the spin style kid. i also made a note on how matchup experience played a big part in espy's improvement.

 

[Umby]

Do you think that the other play style analyses need to be updated?

 

[Browny]

LOOK AT THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXnqatrnUu0 1:18 - 1:26. HOTNESS. if you aren't doing this, you need to work on it then.

Yeah that was insane.

But then check out 2:05 lol. Epic mindgames, matchup inexperience, or Sonic having something good going on here? Was there much marth could do that would stop the SC from hitting? It becomes a game of chance really. Any move by marth is punishable by a reasonable % combo and is he retreats you just jump cancel it... I really should use spindash more lol. Tried to take it out of my game completely coz i spend a lot of time playing against snake, wolf etc and chars who just press b to stop it lol

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Good **** guys.

 

[Camalange]

*watches tech chase*

This is why I always say Bair is ****, lol

 

[JayBee]

Do you think that the other play style analyses need to be updated?

most likely. What i need to do is have a list of the players I'll look at because i've been doing it on a whim nowadays. since everyone should have improved this should be the next step.

Yeah that was insane.

But then check out 2:05 lol. Epic mindgames, matchup inexperience, or Sonic having something good going on here? Was there much marth could do that would stop the SC from hitting? It becomes a game of chance really. Any move by marth is punishable by a reasonable % combo and is he retreats you just jump cancel it... I really should use spindash more lol. Tried to take it out of my game completely coz i spend a lot of time playing against snake, wolf etc and chars who just press b to stop it lol

my issue with the matchup exp is that mikehae should have ample exp against sonic, especially espy's, right, but this still occured. I agreed wit kid before, but i thought about it later, and then what you say about the risk of having your move blocked by a spin cancel into a combo or grab needs to be considered. spin dash combos are legit, and they do good damage, and give you tech chasing opportunites as well as a finisher setup. the thing is DJ, if you are going to use the spins, you have to:

1: perform it quickly
2: do it when your opponent has less of a chance to react to the attack
3: constantly throw them off with cancels to prevent them getting used to your patterns.

your spins will get ***** if you dont follow that usually. I actually use spins more against falco when i anticipate lasers, the SDR has gone under it multiple times in my experience. I aim to do this more ( mostly the cancel part of it) as a mainstay in my game, because of the spacing it gives you, not only because you can foxtrot/DDP away, but as the opponent takes teh extra time to process the potential of the attack, you get additional spacing, and you gain some control on the ground as they become more defensive.

 

[ShadoFiend]

WOW That tech chase was sooo sexy. WHY IS THAT NOT A GIF?

Also I have a new love for these analyzes you do. Who's the next person?

 

[Tenki]

*watches tech chase*

This is why I always say Bair is ****, lol

it was pretty nice.

on a B-air note, didn't expect the double B-air to work/kill.

also, for Kojin, I present to you...

の

whether or not you decide to use it is your own choice.

 

[JayBee]

it was pretty nice.

on a B-air note, didn't expect the double B-air to work/kill.

also, for Kojin, I present to you...

の

whether or not you decide to use it is your own choice.

is that... "no" in japanese? i shall use it sir. plus+10 steak for you.

 

[~TBS~]

kojin do my style pl0x?

and yes, i watched espy's vids. But, im not going to try to put that into my game copying from someone else isnt something i could bring myself to do, im gonna work on defense when necessary, my offensive game is down pack (except charging smashes. I am going to work on a balance on using reg smashes and charges, but not do the charges so often.) I do have to pratice player habits so i can get my uthrows to be better. argh, so much to work on.

 

[Camalange]

PA Sonics revolve around Hypnosmash.


lol

Phoenix and I also sold ourselves to Bair <333

 

[ShadoFiend]

Speed i dont think you even have enough vids to get ur style analyzed loll

 

[Espy Rose]

WOW That tech chase was sooo sexy. WHY IS THAT NOT A GIF?

That would actually look pretty sweet.

 

[ShadoFiend]

I honestly wanna see Cammy's style. I have yet to see my main dude play. This upsets me. But from the small clips i see him throw out it looks hella sexy. Notice the use of hella after the cali trip

 

[Camalange]

I honestly wanna see Cammy's style. I have yet to see my main dude play. This upsets me. But from the small clips i see him throw out it looks hella sexy. Notice the use of hella after the cali trip

Why thank ya' kind sir lol


Well, I have a load of tourney matches against a MK comin' soon so...maybe Kojin can take a look at those if he wants sometime once they're on YouTube.

Shado, you haven't been done yet, right? You should get analyzed before I get re-analyzed if you want, and if Kojin wants to.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

There's no point to asking about getting your style looked at. It seems if your not Malcolm, Tenki, Espy, or whoever I'm missing, it's not gonna be done >_<.

Prove me wrong (Chances are, you're not going to), been waiting for the longest as well as other people.

 

[TwinkleToes]

You need to remind people. I can't remember the last time I even saw you post.

 

[Camalange]

I agree, it's not like you're a constant regular BT.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

PA Sonics revolve around Hypnosmash.


lol

Phoenix and I also sold ourselves to Bair <333

This is completely correct. I am known as a Sonic punch *****. A comment on a vid of me said that their ears were bleeding cause of Sonic screaming GO so much. I really shouldn't brag about that though lol

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I agree, it's not like you're a constant regular BT.

I already posted some vids already on this thread :/. I just want my style done already >_<. I feel like Luigi. I will see to it that it gets done or i'll complain :O.

 

[TwinkleToes]

It's always about what you want, BT. What about what we want? Did you even once consider our feelings?

BT, I think we're going to have to break up with you. Sonic Boards refuses to stay in this one-sided, abusive relationship any longer.

(Just repost your vids already)

 

[BlueTerrorist]

It's always about what you want, BT. What about what we want? Did you even once consider our feelings?

BT, I think we're going to have to break up with you. Sonic Boards refuses to stay in this one-sided, abusive relationship any longer.

(Just repost your vids already)

lol soap opera drama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xskGXGCdpg&fmt=18 - Blue Terrorist (Sonic) vs. Silven (Ike) 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2FH5c98pY&fmt=18 - Blue Terrorist (Sonic) vs. Silven (Ike) 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpJFxIx7un4&fmt=18 - Blue Terrorist (Sonic) vs. Silven (Ike) 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXkY6ytOMRg&fmt=18 - Blue Terrorist (Sonic) vs. Silven (Ike) 4

This is what I posted in the thread a while back. Should I post my older vids too?

Should I get Wifi matches too? (Didn't record them, I have crappy recording methods)

 

[Camalange]

Knowing Kojin, he'll probably search and find every video on YouTube and critique things you did in the past and compare to the present.

He knows his shtuff mang.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Knowing Kojin, he'll probably search and find every video on YouTube and critique things you did in the past and compare to the present.

He knows his shtuff mang.

Guess I should help him then . After all, I am asking him to do me a favor. Gosh, I lol'ed at these.

From oldest to newest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XabN-leo7UI - HAB (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE9g94TBikI - HAB (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVrEh8Jfu8E - HAB (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi15Q7gCcNI - Shin Bowser(Fox) vs. BlueTerrorist(Sonic) #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xfI05vAR8 -Shin Bowser(Fox) vs. BlueTerrorist(Sonic) #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTJ6VL0a9IU - Shin Bowser(Kirby) vs. BlueTerrorist(Sonic) #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x8u9IlplWs - Shin Bowser(Kirby) vs. BlueTerrorist(Sonic) #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piPeISLMGAg - Shin Bowser(Kirby) vs. BlueTerrorist(Sonic) #3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mgygilaJ4 - Shin Booz (Bowser) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe0tjh1e6QU - HAB (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfR1G4VTCw - HAB (ROB) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcpObe-GrXc - BlueTerrorist (Sonic) vs Shin (PT) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkONDY1Dyfk - BlueTerrorist (Sonic) vs Shin Booz (Pokemon Trainer) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6-Uj3uS4Q - HAB (G&W) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkzaqlCSDek - HAB (ROB) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) 2

Tourney grand finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xskGXGCdpg - Silven(Ike) vs. Blue Terrorist(Sonic) 1/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2FH5c98pY - Silven(Ike) vs. Blue Terrorist(Sonic) 2/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpJFxIx7un4 - Silven(Ike) vs. Blue Terrorist(Sonic) 3/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXkY6ytOMRg - Silven(Ike) vs. Blue Terrorist(Sonic) 4/4

That should do it, that should help Kojin. Watching my first moments was lolsauce.

 

[TwinkleToes]

BT, I'd like to see some vids of your Sonic against a Falco. Failing that, if you have vids of you taking on any of Sonic's harder match-ups I'd like to see those.

I personally feel that your direct approach only worked as well as it did because you were fighting an Ike. It seems to be a pretty lateral play-style, but I did like that you showed that you don't need to rely 100% on mind-games to create openings (as showed by the liberal use of spring drops and dash attacks). The variety was conspicuously absent. Rarely did you use any u-throw set-ups, spinshot setups, and in general I felt you were playing a very "safe" kind of Sonic. I'd like to see some more stuff so I could get a better picture of how you handle more versatile characters. Particularly ones which are not easy as hell to gimp ( ).

 

[Kinzer]

Do understand that those videos are as early as May, and we're in late August.

Maybe BT's changed up his style just a teeny bit.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Kojin asked me to post these here. Im not sure if he wants the most recent only or all of them. So I'll post the most recent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBkzX5N11WY&feature=channel_page vs Oli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTwbrDA9eBY&feature=channel_page vs Wario (malcolm) (already saw this one.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj4RdmQrB8o&feature=channel_page vs Ike (u already saw this one. vs Malcolm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEYCEbtU8y0&feature=channel_page vs Zss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttLm4R5k7uo&feature=channel_page vs Sonic (Malcolm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsZu4MFbk0Q&feature=channel_page vs Tink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcXR9OYFMtY&feature=channel vs Zelda (u already have seen it)

Thats my most recent ones exlcuding the **** at the tourney. Malcolm already helped me with my aggressiveness so I need some new vids to show off some more. lmao

 

[JayBee]

Yo BT. I'm already workin on it, i just have a TON of college stuff to work on, but i already started looking at vids. I can see me having it here this weekend.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Yo BT. I'm already workin on it, i just have a TON of college stuff to work on, but i already started looking at vids. I can see me having it here this weekend.

Thanks man, I appreciate it .

 

[JayBee]

BlueTerrorist no Style: Another example of a sonic who does the core gampelay well, but now needs to take it to another level.

Ground game:
This Sonic has a very raw ground game. At this point in the metagame this means linear running to the opponent, shield grabbing, and plenty of spin dashing. He is very much a hit and run type, which is fine because Sonic can be played like that. However, his ability to make the most of his opponents mistakes can be relooked. Sonic’s ability to rack up damage from combos and mindgames aren’t really there as much as it should be from the vids I’ve looked at. I like his use of spin dash cancels to mix it up, but he needs to use them a lot more. When he does attack with the spin specials and gets a hit, he does what he is supposed to do, so I’m not upset with that. However, beware of your tendencies when they get blocked. Springing seems to be the primary option in that case, which is okay IF you aren’t predictable with it. Defensively, you need to not roll so much.

Air game:
You don’t ASC. At all. This bothered me since you do like to use spin cancels every once in a while, and ASC can be used for the same reasons you would cancel a side B, as well as a giving yourself one of the few true combos in Brawl on hit.

Edge game:
His edge game revolves around the generic spring gimp strategy. Given the right matchup, this is a good idea, but he doesn’t change this up with other edge guarding strategies. This is the most predictable part of his game right now. In terms of the usage of aerials it is the standard of sonic play. Nothing much to specifically point out imo. But you know me, I'm gonna always tell people to "u-air mor."

Throws:
Mostly D-throw, not confident in your follow-up ability so far.

Weaknesses:
-Work on other methods of edge guarding with Sonic.
-Use his others throws (like Up throw) and practice follow-ups/fake-outs from them.
-Try to use even more spin dash cancels and see how that helps you spacing. Should also help your mindgames too, and probably get you more grab attempts.
-Foundations are there, but all areas need to be expanded on in order to use Sonic’s full potential. Mindgames are not present either.
-If the bulk of your matchup experience is against Ike’s, we have a problem.


Style Verdict: Punish/ Grapple
In the end though your style misses out on the many followup opportunites that allows sonic to truly shine after punishment situations. This however, doesn’t meant a “bad” Sonic, but only a lack of advanced gameplay.
You need to send more recent vids too please.

 

[Umby]

I haven't been following this thread like a hardcore reader so far, but Kojin, do you review styles as they catch your eye, or do you critique them upon request like a video thread?

 

[JayBee]

in the beggining I did the first ones on my own initiative, but now I try to do it as people ask me. Lately college is getting in the way of writing up consistant ones. sometimes i need reminding lol.

Next one I'll work on is SonicMaster's. Odd, I think I should have had one by now...

EDIT: From now on, If people wanna get their style done the least they can do is link their matches here to make it as easy as possible for me, with priority on the most recent matches (though i dont mind looking at some older ones to see how you got better). thank you.

 

[~TBS~]

you're gonna do me? thnx. Sega Sagara got this, and i really need to know what to work on. Im just getting mixed options like "be more defensive", or "use more mindgames". I need examples on these types of things, just telling me makes me think too hard.

But i hope this can help me on my goal. Best Sonic main who goes all Sonic. LETS JUICE!

 

[ShadoFiend]

Hell I could do that for you SM5. I know how you play. And I know what you **** up on lol. Just like when you were playin TK on the livestream. I called you out son. You DDP into so many things.

You look cool as hell i'll admit but you like get into it too much. Gotta learn to cool it down mos def.

 

[Camalange]

Overuse of DDP is a bad thing. It loses its effect if you always use it.

 

[~TBS~]

i was overusing it? i try to run normally more now. TKO knows too much about DDP, and falco is harsh online. no johns though. <.<

 

[Isatis]

i was overusing it? i try to run normally more now. TKO knows too much about DDP, and falco is harsh online. no johns though. <.<

It's on WiFi, the only valid john.

Yes...

Triangle.