Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Chis]

Cool.


Also, reverse B momentum cancel for Sonic? Could there be one for him?

Chis, have you been lurking in the Zelda boards about that Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling? (aka: B-reversed momentum cancel)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo (0:21)

Yes you missed something.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Notice how when zelda used side-b she got the little boost away infzy showed in his vid?
Notice how Sonic doesn't have that with his side-B?

 

[Chis]

Sonic gets a boost when doing side b.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic pushes himself backwards when charging the SideB, then launches forward with release, hence why DownB is currently the best option for momentum canceling since there's none of that "pushback charge" (SideB will just send you closer to the blastzone).

So what we're wondering is that if we were to B-Reverse SideB, would it be better.

 

[Kinzer]

Didn't Infzy also say how releasing Down-B is faster then Side-B?

Even if that isn't true, the part about not sending you to the blastzone is fun.

Also because Chis asked Camal, there's nothing wrong with theorycraftin'.

 

[Katakiri]

Sonic doesn't have a momentum cancel like Toon Link does he?

Like how Tink does B-Air > Jump > D-Air & the D-Air starts moving toward the stage.

EDIT: Okay so I just went into training mode and test this using Bob-ombs. It actually worked. O_O

When I did the D-Air Sonic started sliding to the right. (back to the stage) Or at least it looked like it. I was kinda off-screen but I could tell that it stopped his momentum w/o any SDI.

I tried it again a little more to the right so I'm on-screen but I keep getting the complete stop, but no real sliding.

Somehow I feel like this is known and I'm just way behind. (I gotta be on swf more. :/)

 

[Kinzer]

Not that anyone is aware of.

 

[Katakiri]

I've gotten the "sliding" d-air about twice now, but the timing is really tight.

I'm using Up-Air > Jump > D-Air. Pretty sure Up-Air's faster than B-Air.

I'm stopping a little sooner than I can with SDI alone. I'll keep at it....later though....I'm too tired....

 

[Browny]

this will always happen if you attempt to use dair to momentum cancel. it looks like its actually slowing you down by a lot, but fair/uair is still better

 

[Kinzer]

Oh, you mean doing a momentum-changing aerial while you're in knockback? If that's the case, Sonic doesn't have any use for that really.

BTW I mean to say not that I am aware of, and perhaps nobody else because it wouldn't appear ATM to be something like that with Sonic.

 

[Katakiri]

From the Toon Link boards:

Dair Recovery Stall
How to Perform: Similar to the Dair Stall, Get hit off stage by you're opponent, Use Bair as soon as you can, Jump back towards stage and Dair at the same time.
Effect: Toon will use Bair, Jump up in a Dair animation and then float back towards stage until the Dair stops working (approximately 1 to 2 seconds).
Note: This will only work on medium to high percents which shouldn't be a problem because you shouldn't be getting hit off stage at low percents. Other rules apply, read the Dair Stall for more info. Now something to keep in mind; by doing this, you will recover much higher than normal, which is good. But it will also take away your double jump which will limit your options. I would suggest that as soon as the Dair stops working, Pull out a Bomb. Problem solved.
Stages: All
Usefulness: 10/10
Credit: Hyrulian_Royalty

What I mean it that Sonic slides a little like Tink does when I do it just right. Not as much as Tink, but it might be useful.

I'm gonna be gone for a week, so look into it for me. (I'll be back with some new textures)

 

[II Bolt II]

Bolt should be more used to my style, unfortunately, Speed is the polar opposite of me in terms of style. while I may play defensive and force mistakes that way, Speed rushed you like a mad banshee and create his own situation. granted i do that too, but not 24/7...

btw guys, Bolt wants to pick up sonic legitly, so be nice. he already has seen how hard its gonna be lol. but sonic being as fun as hell should make it not as bad.

did you go to C3? how was it?

maybe next time we play ill see a better sonic... just look at matches from all of us, not just me. im not gonna have time to play much brawl for a while, but the time i do have, im gonna practice with Aposol and GIMR. IC's are sooooo gay...

i've also been praticing more basic things, like Spin dash cancelling. I'm trying to be able to do them as fast as possible aka the first possible frame you can shield it. Im gonna really spam it more in my style to hopefully keep them on the defensive.

Yeah Speed was all up in my face! haha.. and the main reason why I'm picking up Sonic is because he's the only character that I can enjoy playing without getting frustrated. lol.. atleast in Sonic Dittos haha

So we'll see how it progresses and I will try and record some matches for everyone to judge.

 

[Browny]

Katakiri im pretty sure i explained it... Also imo the TL boards overrate the usefulness of that tech, im pretty sure a standard momentum cancel is more effective than a dair lol

 

[Camalange]

Dair is a terrible momentum canceling option for Sonic.

 

[Tenki]

Didn't Infzy also say how releasing Down-B is faster then Side-B?

I think SL84's frame thread said something like they're pretty much the same.

Or that might have just been F-tilt/D-tilt. I'll check later/wait for someone else to do it lol.

I'm using Up-Air > Jump > D-Air. Pretty sure Up-Air's faster than B-Air.

and F-air ends faster than U-air (in midair - whereas U-air has much earlier IASA landing frames)

 

[Camalange]

I think SL84's frame thread said something like they're pretty much the same.

Side B: Frame 17
Down B: Frame 17

I'm also going to repeat that Down B >>>>>>>> Side B

Side B will kill you, Down B will completely stop ALL OF YOUR MOMENTUM.

Make sure to FF Fair first, then Down B because

and F-air ends faster than U-air (in midair - whereas U-air has much earlier IASA landing frames)

^This.

Dair would be a terrible, god awful idea for Sonic >_> besides, we already have an amazing momentum cancel so I'm not even going to look into it further, I already know it wouldn't work >_>

 

[JayBee]

seriously, why discuss dair for cancelling momentum? I think we should move on at this point. i've been listening from the shadows but as far as I've seen, we are not gonna get anything better than fair>DownB. the end.

yeah Bolt, Im more defensive than he is, that's why i've been working on the rush down portion aka Speed so that I become more balanced. and Speed from what i heard is doing the same on his patience and defence lol.

moral: Speed is Kojin's evil twin brother.
Kojin is Speed's evil twin brother

...

lolwut?

 

[Chis]

I disagree. I mean surely more testing and such can't hurt. Every little counts.

 

[JayBee]

da mod has spoken.
back to work.


in all honesty, i dont have my wii for a while since i left it at home when i went back to college, so i wont have anything confirmed for a while. so you guys will have to do that. I have, however, complemented that with ungodly hours of blazblue.

v13 ftw.


dddddddddd......

 

[Camalange]

I'm not testing it, lol. I've already tested FF Fair + DownB numerous times and it's godly. Dair is terrible, I already know it won't even match to that of what I already stated, considering DownB stops ALL MOMENTUM and Dair just drags you through the sky to your death.

I haven't looked into RAR ASC so I might mess with that, and for BlazBlue...good lord I need that game O_O

 

[JayBee]

yeah im with you on this one.

 

[Chis]

It doesn't hurt to try?

 

[Camalange]

It doesn't hurt to try?

I suppose not, but I'm not feelin' it.

I mean, we have a move that stops all momentum on release...and with my experiences from Dair...not feelin' it.

 

[Tenki]

well, if it works like he describes it, you should pull the "aerial float/stall" in D-air animation, except you'd be floating towards the stage in D-air animation, without a double jump.

It'd sure have a different trajectory, but F-air > down-B is still better due to the fact it keeps you with your double jump :3

 

[infomon]

Someone remind me to test this tomorrow.

I'm curious now.

 

[Kinzer]

Put that Cyan font to work Infzy! <3

 

[infomon]

lol okay

So with kitamerbz' help, I tested everything I could think of.... turnaround neutral-b and b-sticked b-reversal shinnannigans with zelda and sonic, FF Bair > jump into dair with TLink and Sonic..... was there anything else? (were bombs somehow supposed to be involved with that TLink stuff??)

As far as I can tell, b-reversal momentum-shifty properties have no effect during knockback. It's possible they have a teensy bit of one and it's only to push you away further from the stage; but I couldn't tell. Probably their momentum-shifty stuff simply has no effect on knockback.

I've never seen any momentum-changing aerial that has its momentum-changey properties during knockback. TLink's Dair is no exception, nor of course Sonic's. So if TLinks are doing fastfalled bair into a jump+Dair towards the stage..... well, the Dair is completely optional/silly. Any "floating effect" is simply the trajectory the TLink would be doing without the Dair (since the Dair doesn't affect momentum, during knockback).

Unless I missed something?

 

[Kinzer]

Unless Toon Link had a bomb before he got hit in knockback, no, I don't think they applied to anything.

You know better than any of us that throwing an items is one of if not the fastest way to help momentum canceling, right Infzy? You do a buncha vidjas and research into that so I assume I'm right.

 

[infomon]

For sure. In fact, if you're holding a bomb, then instead of using the first aerial to escape hitstun, you should:
airdodge
Then, cancel the opening frames of the airdodge with an item-throw (yes, you can do this)
that gets you out of hitstun super-fast. But you can't fastfall the item-throw, so if you're real worried about the vertical killzone (bad DI) then you might want to just wait and use a fastfalled aerial... or let the bomb explode and DI it lollllll

but I all this is just to get you out of hitstun. I don't see why, afterwards, you would at all care about using a Dair.

 

[Browny]

So if TLinks are doing fastfalled bair into a jump+Dair towards the stage..... well, the Dair is completely optional/silly. Any "floating effect" is simply the trajectory the TLink would be doing without the Dair

No surprises there lol

 

[Camalange]

Welp.




I wanted to share this. People saw my Dthrow tech video and were all like "COULDN'T MARTH HAVE SIDE B'D OR UP B'D INSTEAD OF SPOTDODGING?" so I tested it.

Sonic had enough time to shield both options, so Marth teching Dthrow puts Sonic in a more advantageous situation every time.

 

[infomon]

bahahahahaha

so when I tell ppl "lol just tech sonic's dthrow scrub"

it's really mindgames

10marfas

 

[Kinzer]

So Marth is just another character who gets regrabbed/punished if they try to tech it?

What about his jabs, or other junk... I guess...

Still, that's great to know.

 

[Camalange]

Well, I believe Marth's Jab and SideB activate on frame 4 so if there's enough time to shield SideB, there should be enough time to shield Jab, but I guess I can look into that sometime just to make sure.

 

[JayBee]

i know this is off topic, but heres an exclusive photo for the meta haters:

this is official. use it as you will.

i may put it in the general section, but i didn't do it in the sbr one cause i dont want them to OD and infract me. but still... enjoy.


also check my updated sig. its top tier already....

 

[da K.I.D.]

that pic of sonic with the mask, I WANT IT.

 

[Camalange]

that pic of sonic with the mask, I WANT IT.

^^MK of Low Tier, LOL

even though it's technically Ike now ._.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Mind if I add something too?

 

[JayBee]

dsmash is bad smash

only use it to camp landing lag of characters who cant do anything about it like maybe DK, diddy... any character with bad aerial movement/big hurtbox + bad fairs for landing with.

Dsmash, as bad as you think it is, is faster than fsmash on start up. but yeah, you still have to do work to get it to hit. oh wells.

looking at teh next person so do analysis of... Espy!!!
--------------------------------------
I decided to re-look at an old friend's style and see if i could find any improvement. maybe this can help the steaklings as well.

Some of the things I noticed last time...

Puffball/Espy no Style: This is a good example of an agressive Sonic that extends the damage off of mistake as much as he can. He is solid in all forms of followups, tech chasing, and edgegaurding tactics to ensure maximum damage off of one error. This hyper aggressive mindset has a tendency to backfire often ( and it has at times) but he still does it every time; clearly the reward is worth the risk. To combat this he has developed his durability to make up for any mistakes that would normally kill a Sonic, meaning that comeback wins are very plausible.


Ground movement is superb and polished,.. His use of DDP gives him even more ability to do that, and when used multiple times, his sonic looks even faster than average. As for attacking, this sonic in particular loves his F-Smash,..He isn't looking for grab setups as often as Malcolm or myself, but that's because he loves dtilts as his primary setup... his skill with this part of his game allows him to use FSmash more often in early and mid game because the move is quickly replenished. add that to his normally aggro playstyle, and he barely notices the degeneraion.

His air game, revolves around his Bair, in a similar all-purpose method to the FSmash... Bair is used more as a spacing tool, but when it connects he follows up well... It may be a bit overused though.

His edgegame is IMO one of his more polished ponts... but even if the opponent is good, he has the potential to live near the 150%-200% range easily

If there was one weakpoint in his offense, it would be his throws. This Sonic looks for throws often, but is not nearly as diverse as Malcolm and almost exclusively sticks with DThrow. This can be very dangerous, due to the probability of a close tech...


Style Verdict: Combo/Ground/Edge
Immediate results from observing vids: tilt usage, more aggressive edge tactics

Style Analysis 2: Espy

New Additions: There is a lot more spin dash cancels this and i like it. unpredictablity has improved from teh last time i looked at his style. To me, it shows off sonic's strengths in the basics of advanced brawl tactics, and even though the sonic boards in general feel that this is too basic for good players to fall for over the corase of several matches it proves to still be useful enough. thinking back, this may be what the SBR saw in sonic's potential to boost him to C tier, (barely) and even when i search internet articles on sonic in brawl, unpredictability is a primary point they like to make. This basic part of sonic's game can probably be extended a bit further, and id like to see espy add more to his game, as it seems to even up bad matchups like Marth much better than DDP imo.

He also got a bit more innovative. His tech chasing got a LOT better. once again, we know that sonic is really good at this. but what many may lose sight of is how little technical skill this really is: most of what you need to do is simply run, and because of his ground speed, you dont have to be as close as you thing you may need to.

His style also shifts between an offencive spin based style, and a run based style multiple times in a match. brilliant. what it shows me, is that the spin style is more viable than people thought. remember that months back there was an emphasis by many sonics (including me) on DDP and dashdancing? this is good to know, but in honesty, you wont be using it too much as it can take enough concentration from you to mess up a tech chase or something. He still does DDP, but i feel that his limited usage of it shows not only his technical skill, but his feel for when to break out tactics. empty hops have also been added to fake attack attemps on falling opponents. nice.

the mobiliy is very good. in fact, this is his best aspect now. I dont think any character in the game can conrner this sonic at this point. and the spin cancels and SDVJ for retreats are good because they can shift to attacks at any random time. LOOK AT THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXnqatrnUu0 1:18 - 1:26. HOTNESS. if you aren't doing this, you need to work on it then.

lastly, his edgegaurding added very well timed spring gimp attempts that i was happy with. he is a lot more creative off stage, and goes very far out to punish off stage recoveries. He's the best ive seen utilizing spring in his edgegaurd game now.

He uses all throws in his game now. I see more upthrow in his game too, one of the things I harped on before.

good **** Puffball.


Overall, there is clear improvement in every noticible category,
I remember telling Speed to look out for my style, and i was working on it to be focused on the basics. But honestly, If i told him to look at espy in recent matches he would get the idea of how i am going to play. combined with extensive matchup knowledge, he's got a very complete sonic now...


that was quick...

 

[II Bolt II]

lol @ your sig Kojin. XD