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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

Tenki

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Oh the spring? Well, it's only useful for distruption and edgeguarding (Spring says F your recovery Ike >:D).

Also useful for Tornado distruption, we can drop the Spring in there as you know. If MK Tornado's on to a grounded spring, it turns into a Side B for some reason ... Take advantage of this if you predict a Tornado, works wonders if used right.
Most MK's don't approach with nado anymore, afaik.

The reason they'd go into side-B is because they're physically committed to tapping B while holding a direction. More cautious/aware MK's can either restart the tornado upon hitting the spring, or even dj d-air :[

Same thing for Olimar. He can just DJ on hitting the spring or either N-air or buffer a jab/tilt out of airdodge.

Also keep in mind that he can smash as soon as he plucks, so don't get caught off guard just because he doesn't have any pikmin. If he's on the ground, Almost always treat him like he has pikmin. :x

However, it's still an interesting diversion as long as you don't set it up late enough for them to be able to hit you out of D-air while they're respawning.

----------

On a related note to spring usage, has anyone tried a spring cancelled ledgehop aerial?

that is:

1) set up a grounded spring near ledge
2) D-air or fall into the ledge
3) FF>double jump a F-air/U-air/move of choice while aiming to land on the spring to cancel your aerial into either a D-air stall, HA, double jump, or just follow the spring's trajectory.
 

BlueTerrorist

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Grounded Springs in general are a double-edged sword. The opponent could use it for their own benefits as well. They're usually better as edgeguarding tools or if their present at a VERY situational time in your favor. Did I mention they make sexy beast for doubles?
 

JayBee

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Oh the spring? Well, it's only useful for distruption and edgeguarding (Spring says F your recovery Ike >:D).

Also useful for Tornado distruption, we can drop the Spring in there as you know. If MK Tornado's on to a grounded spring, it turns into a Side B for some reason (Tenki should have posted this by now, I'm just comfirming this and added it to my MK defense). It can gimp MK if he's not careful and it gives you free hits (always a good thing since Sonic's good at racking damage and punishing) or a free kill setup if he's at the right percent (Which isn't too high since he's light). Take advantage of this if you predict a Tornado, works wonders if used right.

It's good as a scare tactic for Olimars too when they respawn. Spring + getting forced in the air at respawn= NO PIKMEN!!! I literally owned a Olimar's stock because of this. Nolimar's aren't completely defenseless, but if you know what he can do without the Pikmen, not only will he be predicted easily, but he will at least take a considerable amount of damage or kill him outright if he can't find a opening to pluck some out. Do this as many times as you can get away with it (Sorry Olimar peeps :chuckle:).

Also good as a edgeguard as well (aside from dropping Springs on their heads). Someone recovers high, it could lead to a Uair gimp or gimp by the diagonal blast line or if you just wanna be evil and tack on more damage then that's fine too. You can also edgehog and dictate where they will go since they won't wanna land on the Spring for fear of getting taken advantage of (Won't help them anyway, we're gonna predict them either way). So experiment with those grounded Springs folks. When you force people to do things, you're at a advantage. I'll post more if I think of anything else, hope this doesn't get ignored :ohwell:.
nice. think about it this way, it also prevents the jump attack option off the ledge if you place a spring near the ledge, and if the opponent tries to come at you from off stage, maybe it will hit. and pop them up.

Basically.


I land it on people who have strange spotdodge habits or reactions. Like, some people won't react if I jab and just assume I'll jab combo...so they won't react to the jab>fsmash

But technically it's a horrible tactic and should never be used according to SL logic ;D

:093:
yeah. I only use it once, and a few things have to happen. you have to show the full jab combo a few times, you have to jab cancel, and you opponent has to be pressured into shielding before hand. backstab smashing works a bit better since they are more defensive on sonic's run, but best to keep it as a KO mindgame.

btw, Foxtrot into stuttuer step Fsmash works so well! especially if you space it at maximum range, they opponent sometimes runs into it, or can't punish in time. at least from what i've seen. I do it now after a down throw, or random spazzingo out wit my run/DDP/foxtrot routine.

Most MK's don't approach with nado anymore, afaik.

The reason they'd go into side-B is because they're physically committed to tapping B while holding a direction. More cautious/aware MK's can either restart the tornado upon hitting the spring, or even dj d-air :[

Same thing for Olimar. He can just DJ on hitting the spring or either N-air or buffer a jab/tilt out of airdodge.

Also keep in mind that he can smash as soon as he plucks, so don't get caught off guard just because he doesn't have any pikmin. If he's on the ground, Almost always treat him like he has pikmin. :x

However, it's still an interesting diversion as long as you don't set it up late enough for them to be able to hit you out of D-air while they're respawning.

----------

On a related note to spring usage, has anyone tried a spring cancelled ledgehop aerial?

that is:

1) set up a grounded spring near ledge
2) D-air or fall into the ledge
3) FF>double jump a F-air/U-air/move of choice while aiming to land on the spring to cancel your aerial into either a D-air stall, HA, double jump, or just follow the spring's trajectory.
that sounds sexy. will do tenki.
 

Tenki

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I did something pretty to Sandbag earlier.

SH U-air when they're near the spring > bounce off the spring and do an instant rising ASC into them.

lolol situational fails
 

Tenki

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Chis, have you been lurking in the Zelda boards about that Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling? (aka: B-reversed momentum cancel)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo (0:21)
oh lol

I remember trying to suggest using B-reversal to some people on AiB forever ago, but someone brought up something about specials having some state where they can't do that exactly.

The idea was to use a B-reversed Eruption so instead of flying to the right, you'd fly to the left, but obviously it didn't work.

It was long before people found out about the whole using-aerials-to-break-momentum1 though, so that's kinda interesting to see.

I doubt it'd work with Sonic's side-B (even though you can B-reverse it) since it has the whole complete-stop thing that tends to launch you further.

We can't B-reverse HA or Down-B.

you CAN B-reverse spring though.

iono, someone else go mess around with it :3

I doubt it'd work with Sonic's side-B (even though you can B-reverse it) since it has the whole complete-stop thing that tends to launch you further.
On second thought, after watching the vid, Nayru's love also has that effect. So Side-B should theoretically be Sonic's best choice as long as you B-reverse it.
 

Kinzer

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I believe that was Infzy that said doing B-moves while in knockback would actually give you a boost AWAY from the stage, which is bad if you want to LIVE.

I'm not sure if the whole B-reversal works for Sonic though, assuming Tenki is right (which he always is) when he says you can B-reverse Spin Charge or Homing Attack (it's garbage anyway), this leaves us with Spring Jump and Spin Dash, and here are the problems I see with this.

Doing a Spin Dash the opposite way seems nice in theory, like Spin Charge it stops most momentum save for the extra boost the opposite way it will launch, but with B reversal it would give us a boost back towards the stage... however of course you're not going to release the Spin Dash away from the stage, which that might kill you, so to avoid that you will have to jump cancel that (assuming you still had it before you got launched and tried this method of momentum-canceling), and with Sonic you will be facing the opposite way from the stage, meaning the only thing you have to defend against edgegaurds will be Bairs and Spring, you can't use Homing Attack to stall and boost your recovery because you're facing the opposite way and Tenki had already said how you can't B-reverse that to face the other way, so doing Homing Attack is pointless (surprise, surprise).

Now with Spring... it leaves you in a semi-helpless state, meaning recovery becomes limited and predictable... I find this to be no good, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

TL/DR - Continue what you're doing.
 

Tenki

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[1]I believe that was Infzy that said doing B-moves while in knockback would actually give you a boost AWAY from the stage, which is bad if you want to LIVE.

[2] I'm not sure if the whole B-reversal works for Sonic though, assuming Tenki is right when he says you can't B-reverse Spin Charge or Homing Attack (it's garbage anyway), this leaves us with Spring Jump and Spin Dash, and here are the problems I see with this.

[wat]Doing a Spin Dash the opposite way seems nice in theory, like Spin Charge it stops most momentum save for the extra boost the opposite way it will launch, but with B reversal it would give us a boost back towards the stage... however of course you're not going to release the Spin Dash away from the stage, which that might kill you, so to avoid that you will have to jump cancel that (assuming you still had it before you got launched and tried this method of momentum-canceling), and with Sonic you will be facing the opposite way from the stage, meaning the only thing you have to defend against edgegaurds will be Bairs and Spring, you can't use Homing Attack to stall and boost your recovery because you're facing the opposite way and Tenki had already said how you can't [3] B-reverse that to face the other way, so doing Homing Attack is pointless (surprise, surprise).
[1] If you watch the video, the first time Zelda uses Nayru's, she doesn't B-reverse and flies off and dies. The second time, she just brakes, which is crazy and good.

[2] 't

[wat]
Dude, for moves you can B-reverse, you can start them facing in any direction you want lol.
So the manual input (no B-sticking) would be, assuming you're flying to the right:

1) Aerial
2) Right-B>left​

And that way, you do a B-reversal but in the end, face left, the way you want to launch lol.

There's a turnaround B, where you just tap a direction and let go- when you hit B (ex: neutral B) you'll do the attack facing that direction (for example, jump forward, tap back once, let go, and do flame thrower with Bowser, and you'll face backwards).

Nothing changes except for the direction you're facing, and this works for every neutral B.

Then there's a B-reversal, where you tap back as you hit B: the direction you're facing changes AND your momentum reverses (or in this case, "adds" to that direction).

[3] You can't B-reverse a HA to turn it around. You can however, do the turnaround thing, where you tap the direction, let go, then do it. However, you lose alot of height so it's generally a bad idea. In this sense, nothing changes, and HA is still useless. Well, unless they're trying to gimp you but don't position themselves to cover HA. HA still has more "lock on" range in the direction you're facing.

:<
 

Kinzer

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1. Is it any better than Zelda's normal momentum cancels?

2. Must've been a typo, silly me.

wat. I'm much too ******** to make anything out of this weather, let alone the point you're trying to make here, I'm sorry

3. Glad we can come to an agreement that HA sucks.
 

Browny

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HA only sucks if you use it at the wrong time. its like saying dair sucks, when its not meant to be used an an approach, instead of an anti-juggling option
 

Kinzer

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I only use Homing attack to recover, and occasionally when I'm being gutsy with it (I dunno, maybe I'm looking for a metagame advancement with it), but otherwise believe me when I say I know when to use an attack at what time, and that I especially know Homing Attack's place.
 

Browny

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and so do I, and HA is still useful when no other option is. ive explained like 5x why in the boards somewhere.
 

Tenki

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Yap.

HA and spindash both suck, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we should completely cut them out of our games lol.
 

II Bolt II

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so far i only found 2 places. thank god its all in legal stages.
-So far I only heard Wes for playstyles. you serious?
-Yo, Speed, thx for ****** Bolt at C3, I watched those matches closely, and i basically ***** his diddy today via the same way. I 3 stocked him once, he had controller johns. you are really good at the diddy matchup. now get good against meta you slacker. you're too slow.
Uhhh, It was a two stock and my controller was screwy from me taking it apart and tampering with the new analogs/buttons. You felt that controller, it feels like its gonna fall apart! :( But yeah the 2nd match after that was way better AFTER I had switched controllers. Came down to last stock, last hit.. with you pulling through.

so, Kojin calls me slow, but doesnt know what SLOW is?
yeah, playing bolt was too fun. Taking those naners and using it against him is so fun. toss in some mindgames, and you got a scared diddy. I do need help vs Meta, though.
It was definetly fun.. being scared of a sonic. lol.. our first match was too goodz.. but once you get your mindgames going on me its like :confused: from there on. WE need to play again to redeem myself! If your ever trying to get some Diddy practice in, be sure to let me know and I'll hop on wifi or you can shoot me your number through PM so we can meet up and chill or somethin.

Kojin calls you slow? Your sonic was way harder to fight than Kojins.. then again, two different Sonic Playstyles.

PS: I know this post is maaaad old, but I was bored and reading through the Sonic Boards since I plan on picking him up for the lulz.

Kojin had been training me the last time he was here.. got some good ditto footage on my wii that I may upload later. :)
 

II Bolt II

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Bolt Stays Johning Lolll Its All I Hear
I think you may be referring to Kojin on this matter. :p

I met you once?

lol naw, man. Bolt is legit, but ADHD had been giving me some training vs Diddy, so it will be an epic match Bolt. I cant wait until the rematch.
ADHD practice eh? Dang.. haha I better get to work then. :p
 

Camalange

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SM5, you play ADHD regularly?

?_?

or did you just play him recently, lol

:093:
 

II Bolt II

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He played him recently.

Bolt i saw you johnin on youtube on one of Kojin's videos lol
You saw me Johning on a youtube video.. are you refferring to the comment I left when I told Kojin not to post up the video of me getting ***** because I was half asleep during the match?

I mean, sleep johns is legit. >.> Ask ADHD. Diddy requires a very AWAKE mentality. :/ There is a video of him up when he was half asleep saying similar johns.. but, its whatever.

They don't call me Papa Johns for nothing. ;)
 

JayBee

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Uhhh, It was a two stock and my controller was screwy from me taking it apart and tampering with the new analogs/buttons. You felt that controller, it feels like its gonna fall apart! :( But yeah the 2nd match after that was way better AFTER I had switched controllers. Came down to last stock, last hit.. with you pulling through.



It was definetly fun.. being scared of a sonic. lol.. our first match was too goodz.. but once you get your mindgames going on me its like :confused: from there on. WE need to play again to redeem myself! If your ever trying to get some Diddy practice in, be sure to let me know and I'll hop on wifi or you can shoot me your number through PM so we can meet up and chill or somethin.

Kojin calls you slow? Your sonic was way harder to fight than Kojins.. then again, two different Sonic Playstyles.

PS: I know this post is maaaad old, but I was bored and reading through the Sonic Boards since I plan on picking him up for the lulz.

Kojin had been training me the last time he was here.. got some good ditto footage on my wii that I may upload later. :)
what you doin here bolt?:confused:


cool. can't wait to take a look at it. i need to redo my style again.

Bolt should be more used to my style, unfortunately, Speed is the polar opposite of me in terms of style. while I may play defensive and force mistakes that way, Speed rushed you like a mad banshee and create his own situation. granted i do that too, but not 24/7...

btw guys, Bolt wants to pick up sonic legitly, so be nice. he already has seen how hard its gonna be lol. but sonic being as fun as hell should make it not as bad.

did you go to C3? how was it?

maybe next time we play ill see a better sonic... just look at matches from all of us, not just me. im not gonna have time to play much brawl for a while, but the time i do have, im gonna practice with Aposol and GIMR. IC's are sooooo gay... :(

i've also been praticing more basic things, like Spin dash cancelling. I'm trying to be able to do them as fast as possible aka the first possible frame you can shield it. Im gonna really spam it more in my style to hopefully keep them on the defensive.


PS: BlazBlue for the win. I've been playing that all week, my v13 is sweet.
 

Jim Morrison

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I'm pretty sure Spring would be stupid because your DI should be up in the corner. If you try to Spring up there you die (if you spring while in knockback you still die when spring out).

I would test, but I won't.
 

Camalange

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Spring will kill you.



Oh, and I've been messing with something from almost a year ago. Remember when we were messing with SideB cancels like, 24/7 and we noticed that if you run forward, forwardB+shield cancel, Sonic extends himself forward really quickly farther than you originally stopped?

Well, it makes for INSANELY FAST GRABS. Try it.

I think Anthinius had a video about it forever ago O_o

:093:
 

~TBS~

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it would be a regular grab wouldnt it? Well, it requires either the vid or experimentation. Anything that helps us is a good thing.

ADHD and me played a couple of rounds, and that Diddy was AGGRO. I mean with the rushing, then banurnur, then just play crazy. But i learned alot from him.
 

Tenki

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speaking of lulzy experimental moves, I was doing footstool out of shield.

it's so ********
 

da K.I.D.

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you deffo can b reverse homing attack, it just doesnt make a difference when it locks on.

HA is good for when people are land camping you, have predictable recoverys, or want to just mess with peoples timing

EDIT
isnt adhd like the campiest diddy out there?

also facejump on grounded opponent gaurantees down air
 

Kinzer

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So can someone test the reverse spring and spin dash thing?
For some reason you look like Xiivi with that avatar.

Oh, and I've been messing with something from almost a year ago. Remember when we were messing with SideB cancels like, 24/7 and we noticed that if you run forward, forwardB+shield cancel, Sonic extends himself forward really quickly farther than you originally stopped?

Well, it makes for INSANELY FAST GRABS. Try it.

I think Anthinius had a video about it forever ago O_o

:093:
I thought this was common knowledge. Infzy did a video explaining this, it's that 10 minute one that explains everything about SC Vs. SD excluding Spinshot.

Yes Sonic extends himself slightly when canceling his run into a SDSC. I've been doing this a lot as of recently, though I don't shield grab it makes for some fancy mindgames, keeping your opponents no your toes with that "schweeee!" noise and doing something else entirely.


I would however like to see a comparison to this and Sonic's dash-grab.
 

Camalange

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I thought this was common knowledge. Infzy did a video explaining this, it's that 10 minute one that explains everything about SC Vs. SD excluding Spinshot.
Well of course, but how many things that are deemed as "common knowledge" are actually incorporated into gameplay or actually remembered in the heat of battle?

It's always good to go back to our roots.

I would however like to see a comparison to this and Sonic's dash-grab.
As would I. I'm curious to know frame wise if it's faster than a dash grab.

Guys, stop posting here, KASR is back, go talk in Social you crack heads.
lol <3

:093:
 

Browny

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im quite sure it will be faster than a dash grab. although normally i just cancel the dash with a shield grab myself, maybe side might be quicker :/
 

Camalange

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im quite sure it will be faster than a dash grab. although normally i just cancel the dash with a shield grab myself, maybe side might be quicker :/
As do I dj, but I thought it would be interesting to mess with the SideB because it seems to be much faster.

Being precise with it and remembering to actually implement it is the tough part.

:093:
 

Chis

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I did testing on the reverse momentum cancelling thingy.

Reverse HA = Very bad idea
Reverse Spring = Doesn't work
Reverse spin dash = same as a normal spin dash

I did it forwards to backwards except HA. Meh, I'll try the other way laters...
 

Tenki

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I did testing on the reverse momentum cancelling thingy.

Reverse HA = Very bad idea
Reverse Spring = Doesn't work
Reverse spin dash = same as a normal spin dash

I did it forwards to backwards except HA. Meh, I'll try the other way laters...
lol reverse HA won't work because it's just starting it backwards, instead of turning it during startup like a B-reversal.

You were doing it with an aerial too, right?

I tried it, but I kept screwing the buffer time so I ended up just recovering better with regular down-B lol.

I think just doing down-B/side-B immediately after aerial+fastfall is the best choice anyway since

1) Less input needed (no B-reversal)
2) Momentum completely gets overridden/moving you towards the way you want to as soon as you release side-B/down-B, so it's doesn't make too much of a difference, whereas if you were Zelda using Nayru's, you'd be stuck moving in whatever direction you were launched.
 

Chis

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Gah, reversing it is really hard D:

After further testing, reverse spin dash (backwards to forwards) works as well as a spin charge. Oh wells...
 
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