Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[JayBee]

RASC seems like it'd be a cool cross up, especially for people expecting an aerial approach. Kinda like Jiggs or Wario landing aerials behind you to avoid shield grabs/OoS options upon landing. I'll play around with it, I suppose.

that's all i ask, if you please.

 

[Umby]

that's all i ask, if you please.

My fingers are ******** about performing it, but it seems to be somewhat viable so long as you backdrift it after the RAR. Time it so you start the charge in front of the opponent, then drift behind him and do whatever. I'll try and see what I can do out of a full hop, but like I said, ******** fingers.

Speaking of ******** fingers, I accidentally wavebounced or B-reversed (I can't tell the differencE) a few of the ASCs, and it looked really cool. It was similar in nature to a reverse stutter step. I should try B-sticking as well to check out the possibilities there.

 

[Tenki]

under a platform:
U-throw > retreating FH > ASC?
;D

Speaking of ******** fingers, I accidentally wavebounced or B-reversed (I can't tell the differencE) a few of the ASCs, and it looked really cool. It was similar in nature to a reverse stutter step. I should try B-sticking as well to check out the possibilities there.

wavebounce and B-reversing is the same thing AFAIC

but

I don't think you can b-reverse Sonic's down-B.

you may have done side-B instead.

 

[JayBee]

bumpity bump.


anyways please post additional things you found on RASC and anything else wierd here.

 

[JayBee]

Has anyone had any luck with RASC yet?

Also, i was wondering how the sonics feel about the viability of UpB Oos?
The reason I asked was because i deceded to try it (tap jump on) by having Bowser flame me continuously whiled i blocked it, then tried UpB Oos.


It worked. sort of. I went through unharmed many times, then some times, when i got really close, it would hit me. I think this means that UpB Oos works, except certain really fast multihit stuff, tho i need to test mor. could use your help. I also wanted to ask if spring dair Oos is viable either for escape, or as an attack if you do it asap, meaning the uncancelled version. in either case i feel that it may not be as good as Shuttle Loop Oos, but it may have a place anyway. please dicuss/test.

I'm guessing that the speed of the ascent is key.


I also tested using upB in my upthrow mind games, as well as when im chasing my airborne opponent, this may have some potential. Like, i'd upthrow, guess when my opponent ADs, then spring jump to throw them furthur in the air. I think not only this gives me a chance to attack them there, but it prevents them from reaching the ground meaning more juggle opportunities. then i could possibly chase them like usual with the threat of an upb popping them up again. even if they AD or attack as they fall, if the spring is under them, they are going up again. plus i can use the invincy frames to pass thru really good aerials (lucario's dair for example) then counter from above as the move ends.

this requires mastering spacing more too, but i want to discuss the potential and and want people to test this idea on characters or in matches before we christen this a legit tactic. i could use your help on this steaklings.

 

[Browny]

yeah lol. Ive been using this a lot recently
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_WRyKS-D6w
3:23 and 5:42 I tried it

I find it to work really well against DDD and any other charcters with poor aerial DI as its too easy to predict their landing position and using it just as a dair like G&W comes to hit you so the invincible frames go through it is quite simple. its amazingly useful if you have forced DDD to use all his jumps haha

When going for the KO, I've found that at the right %'s, time it so only the second hit of uair connects as you begin to fall past where the enemy is. If the first part manages to connect, that generally happens if you used it too late and you will fall below them by the time the second hit comes out

 

[Umby]

Anything with quick startup and invincibility/high priority OoS is viable IMO.

 

[Camalange]

I like it.



I'll try it.

 

[Browny]

umby you dont quite get what he is saying

using it oos is not what happens at all. check out the times i said in my video, thats what he means

 

[Camalange]

I was referring to the OoS. I use the spring plenty for land camping and the like.

 

[Umby]

umby you dont quite get what he is saying

using it oos is not what happens at all. check out the times i said in my video, thats what he means

Also, i was wondering how the sonics feel about the viability of UpB Oos?
The reason I asked was because i deceded to try it (tap jump on) by having Bowser flame me continuously whiled i blocked it, then tried UpB Oos.


It worked. sort of. I went through unharmed many times, then some times, when i got really close, it would hit me. I think this means that UpB Oos works, except certain really fast multihit stuff, tho i need to test mor. could use your help. I also wanted to ask if spring dair Oos is viable either for escape, or as an attack if you do it asap, meaning the uncancelled version. in either case i feel that it may not be as good as Shuttle Loop Oos, but it may have a place anyway. please dicuss/test.

I was referring to that part.

 

[~TBS~]

ah yes, Kojin. You started explaining the up B to me the other day. Remember that spring vs Bolt? oohh yeah. I'll try it, and coupled with the HW you gave me. I decided to just build on my old style. Moar defense and uair OoS

And RASC, my fingers suck. D:

 

[Umby]

Speaking of defense, I want to explore the options that build on Sonic's defense. I'll explain why later after I am informed and have tested what I want to find out.

 

[Tenki]

its amazingly useful if you have forced DDD to use all his jumps haha

You are aware that if someone bounces on a grounded springs, and isn't in a special up-B fall state (sonic/snake/..?), bouncing gives them back all their jumps, right?

Unless you're talking about camping their landings when they don't have their jumps, since they can't fake you out, then okay.

---------------

Also, I've been messing around with resurrecting the idea of spring-cancelled aerials, and some SCA movements, none of which are really all that special so far.

The basic SCA "use"/setup:
- Grounded spring (lasts 3-4 seconds)
- You land first (via AC D-air - for most cases - leaves you with about 2 seconds by the time you get back on the spring)
- You use a move in the air that ends up landing on the spring.
- You use D-air to "stall" on the spring until a certain opening comes up. You can D-air up to around FH height and still land on the spring, so you're not limited to staying exactly on it (which is the case when most people try to camp your spot on the spring)
- You use your move of choice before the spring goes away (B moves, double jump, aerial, etc)


These are the only new/somewhat useful setups/movements that I've messed with recently:

1) Battlefield/battlefield height platforms:
- on Battlefield, you can spring + D-air instantly (don't delay it) at the start and autocancel into the bottom platform, duh.
- More importantly/universally, if you HA into someone's shield and they're under the spring, you'll bounce high enough to end your bounce just a tiny bit earlier on the spring. Of course, if they hit you on the way up, which is the case for quick-aerial characters, then it won't do anything for you.

2) Spring cancel > (stall) > HA
- Exactly as it says. HA's momentum is not affected by the spring at all, so it lets you keep a low HA in a somewhat more unexpected way/timing.

3) Spring > D-air to grab the ledge > ledge hop (hit down first) F-air/U-air/ASC/HA > spring cancel stall > ???
- This is the only potential bait I can think of for certain otherwise overly situational kill/damage strings (like U-air to spring > springcancelled U-air > dj U-air > spring U-air, or unfinished F-air > springcancelled D-air > B-air). If you're on the edge, people are more likely to camp for ledge attacks, and the spring is sort of... there as a distraction and an escape route for yourself since your aerial won't finish.



iono, it's still way too much BS atm. I actually spring cancel > D-air > HA somewhat frequently. As for the other ones, I haven't tested those enough, but they seem potentially interesting.

-------------
Also, since the ASC Perfect Combo will never ever happen in a real match, I publicly present to f=154 the closest thing to it:

Low-launching move (U-throw/F-throw) to a platform > opponent airdodges/attacks into platform > Full Hop [rising] ASC (hold forwards for up to 3 hits) > aerial.

Of course there are variations, like skewing your timing if they're more prone to attacking and end up in landing lag, or doing this to read airdodges in general, though I think the platform really helps the setup more than anything.


-------------



a1joy.

 

[Browny]

You are aware that if someone bounces on a grounded springs, and isn't in a special up-B fall state (sonic/snake/..?), bouncing gives them back all their jumps, right?

Unless you're talking about camping their landings when they don't have their jumps, since they can't fake you out, then okay.

Yeah thats what i mean lol. force DDD to use his upb and put a spring on the edge of the stage and prepare for an instant edgehog if hes going to cancel and go for the ledge... he has no choice but to get punished by it or get outright KO'd

Also, since the ASC Perfect Combo will never ever happen in a real match, I publicly present to f=154 the closest thing to it:

I was gonna post in the sBR, but I actually did the ASC perfect combo 3 days ago It was kinda lost though since the guy I pulled it off on couldnt understand why I was so excited haha. only prob is I did a uair instead of fair. Still 38% or something like that vs his Ivysaur

 

[Chis]

I did the perfect ASC twice in a row once.

Vs a cpu :/

 

[JayBee]

wowtoo goods.

i think the key to doing the ASC PC is that when you are hitting, you need to D! the ASC back with the control stick during the hits but before he lands to keep him in front as much as possible. just a theory...

glad people are taking an interest in the upB Oos thing. i need to see what i can find too.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I just did an asc perfect combo against some MK yesterday. I actually find myself landing it on MK's more than most characters. Just seems easier.

 

[Camalange]

I should start trying to figure out how to perform the ASC perfect combo.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I just press buttons, and good things happen.

 

[~TBS~]

I just press buttons, and good things happen.

^^

Man, i dont think i've ever done the ASC PC, but many other variations i think? Its so cool, we have so many options.

@Umby
I agree. Defense when your % is too high is what i need help with. Other than running away, what can we do?

 

[JayBee]

you can still fake approaches to keep them guessing with cancels and such, but at this point you are less spontaneus into dashing in the fray. sometimes running at them only to run away again works well too, since they assume an attack is coming.

 

[Umby]

@Umby
I agree. Defense when your % is too high is what i need help with. Other than running away, what can we do?

Well, my original intentions derive from seeing a thread on the Falco vs. Kirby matchup. The conversation led to someone mentioning MK vs Wario, and how once MK gets a percentage lead, he can just go into a defensive game and keep the advantage (due to his great defensive game). I was wondering if a similar concept could be applied to Sonic in certain matchups. Being Sonic, it's not hard to want to just jump into the ****.

Also, why did no one tell me about buffered inputs out of a screech stop?

 

[Espy Rose]

Well, my original intentions derive from seeing a thread on the Falco vs. Kirby matchup. The conversation led to someone mentioning MK vs Wario, and how once MK gets a percentage lead, he can just go into a defensive game and keep the advantage (due to his great defensive game). I was wondering if a similar concept could be applied to Sonic in certain matchups. Being Sonic, it's not hard to want to just jump into the ****.

Also, why did no one tell me about buffered inputs out of a screech stop?

I've actually been playing around with the concept of camping the opponent if you get a good lead.

However, it'd be useless against characters with good projectiles like Toon Link or something...

And the screech stop was probably seen as general knowledge for most of the Sonic players. I'm actually surprised that you didn't know until now.

 

[JayBee]

r u serious? lol @ you.

espy: i practice simply dodging projectiles during matches from long range sometimes. it lets me feel more confident that i dont have to feel like im forced to run into **** all day. just saying.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

lol. Who ACTUALLY wants to chase a Sonic?

 

[Umby]

And the screech stop was probably seen as general knowledge for most of the Sonic players. I'm actually surprised that you didn't know until now.

I'm grab/aerial happy. If I ever used to screech stop, it'd be to try and land fsmash or do a double take.

 

[Espy Rose]

espy: i practice simply dodging projectiles during matches from long range sometimes. it lets me feel more confident that i dont have to feel like im forced to run into **** all day. just saying.

I just powershield spammed projectiles. It's must easier.

 

[Umby]

Espy's quote through Umby's computer screen:

I **** Link and Samus like every other Sonic should be able to.

 

[Espy Rose]

Espy's quote through Umby's computer screen:

See, this is why I love you so god**** much.
That, and your taste in annie-may is ****ing awesome.

 

[B.A.M.]

Hey quick question for you guys. What moves do u think benefit us when decayed? Ive been liking dtilts decayed trajectory ( especially sweetspotted) as of late and i was just wondering what is your take on move decay for sonic.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't like anything decayed, maybe only D-tilt would be lol, but probably not. Sonic doesn't care about decay.

 

[Boxob.]

Hey quick question for you guys. What moves do u think benefit us when decayed? Ive been liking dtilts decayed trajectory ( especially sweetspotted) as of late and i was just wondering what is your take on move decay for sonic.

Fair and Uair are nice moves to have decayed.

Dair, too.

 

[Camalange]

Fair should almost always be decayed since it's the attack you'll be using the most. Then Uair.

Decaying Bair is fun, but impracticaly. It's just fun to combo out of decayed Bair, lol, but I don't suggest it.

 

[Kinzer]

Boxob not mentioning Boxobair?

WTF is this crap?

But yeah, you'll probably only want DTilts and Bairs for lulz (though it can work, ask Boxob what happened to him when he went Yoshi on me for example.) intentionally decayed, things like Fair/Uair/Bair/pummels decayed unintentionally since you'll be (or should be) using these moves quite often. To a lesser extent there are also Sonic's spin attacks, throws, USmash, FSmash (*sigh*) that might also be decayed quite, but they provide no benefit for Sonic (except I've managed to make decayed FSmash trip lolwut?)

 

[Camalange]

LOL KINZ

I've done that before in Training Mode! Fsmash trip is sooo lulz xD

 

[Boxob.]

I thought boxobair's were a given.

Sorry.

 

[Kinzer]

Only a select few worthty of it even know how to do it, I just did it out of pure luck.

*Ahem*.

I have a question.

The Jab-cancel -> FSmash thing is just a risky mix-up right? Kojin seems to be landing quite a few of those, of course mixing that up with things like running away and back or past the opponent and backstab them, but frame data says this is otherwise just silly and shouldn't work, yes?

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Oh the spring? Well, it's only useful for distruption and edgeguarding (Spring says F your recovery Ike >:D).

Also useful for Tornado distruption, we can drop the Spring in there as you know. If MK Tornado's on to a grounded spring, it turns into a Side B for some reason (Tenki should have posted this by now, I'm just comfirming this and added it to my MK defense). It can gimp MK if he's not careful and it gives you free hits (always a good thing since Sonic's good at racking damage and punishing) or a free kill setup if he's at the right percent (Which isn't too high since he's light). Take advantage of this if you predict a Tornado, works wonders if used right.

It's good as a scare tactic for Olimars too when they respawn. Spring + getting forced in the air at respawn= NO PIKMEN!!! I literally owned a Olimar's stock because of this. Nolimar's aren't completely defenseless, but if you know what he can do without the Pikmen, not only will he be predicted easily, but he will at least take a considerable amount of damage or kill him outright if he can't find a opening to pluck some out. Do this as many times as you can get away with it (Sorry Olimar peeps ).

Also good as a edgeguard as well (aside from dropping Springs on their heads). Someone recovers high, it could lead to a Uair gimp or gimp by the diagonal blast line or if you just wanna be evil and tack on more damage then that's fine too. You can also edgehog and dictate where they will go since they won't wanna land on the Spring for fear of getting taken advantage of (Won't help them anyway, we're gonna predict them either way). So experiment with those grounded Springs folks. When you force people to do things, you're at a advantage. I'll post more if I think of anything else, hope this doesn't get ignored .

 

[Camalange]

The Jab-cancel -> FSmash thing is just a risky mix-up right? Kojin seems to be landing quite a few of those, of course mixing that up with things like running away and back or past the opponent and backstab them, but frame data says this is otherwise just silly and shouldn't work, yes?

Basically.


I land it on people who have strange spotdodge habits or reactions. Like, some people won't react if I jab and just assume I'll jab combo...so they won't react to the jab>fsmash

But technically it's a horrible tactic and should never be used according to SL logic ;D