Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[TwinkleToes]

oh, you found our super secret cupcake!

good game

It's so awesome to catch a DDD with that and he has no idea wtf is going on lol.

 

[infomon]

works on the right side of battlefield, regardless of DI

can happen elsewhere, some chars/stages depending on DI

 

[JayBee]

so far i only found 2 places. thank god its all in legal stages.
-So far I only heard Wes for playstyles. you serious?
-Yo, Speed, thx for ****** Bolt at C3, I watched those matches closely, and i basically ***** his diddy today via the same way. I 3 stocked him once, he had controller johns. you are really good at the diddy matchup. now get good against meta you slacker. you're too slow.


(btw, I forgot what SLOW was. opps)

The sonic diddy matchup really is even. wow. you really get to see how hard Diddy can't kill sonic if he can't land successive banana combos and the sonic is good with Di/momentum cancelling. the second i grabbed a banana the flow of the match was mine. this is ********.

About Dsmash, I was jsut thinking about ti today, and i went into training mode trying to buffer an about-face before the Dsmash, this is somethign to try.


And I really need to show you guys some stupid sick things i can do wit naners that NO ONE has really to mention. hopefully I'll get a vid up soon.

 

[Espy Rose]

so far i only found 2 places. thank god its all in legal stages.
-So far I only heard Wes for playstyles. you serious?
-Yo, Speed, thx for ****** Bolt at C3, I watched those matches closely, and i basically ***** his diddy today via the same way. I 3 stocked him once, he had controller johns. you are really good at the diddy matchup. now get good against meta you slacker. you're too slow.


(btw, I forgot what SLOW was. opps)

The sonic diddy matchup really is even. wow. you really get to see how hard Diddy can't kill sonic if he can't land successive banana combos and the sonic is good with Di/momentum cancelling. the second i grabbed a banana the flow of the match was mine. this is ********.

About Dsmash, I was jsut thinking about ti today, and i went into training mode trying to buffer an about-face before the Dsmash, this is somethign to try.


And I really need to show you guys some stupid sick things i can do wit naners that NO ONE has really to mention. hopefully I'll get a vid up soon.

I wish I had my matches with Gnes recorded this weekend. We both kept z-grabbing each other's nanerz every time we chucked them.

It might as well be 50-50. Diddy had one hell of a time killing Sonic without that yellow fruit. I managed to live 'til 200% in one match.

Oh, and if possible, Kojin, do you think I can get a re-done analysis of my playstyle?

 

[~TBS~]

so, Kojin calls me slow, but doesnt know what SLOW is?
yeah, playing bolt was too fun. Taking those naners and using it against him is so fun. toss in some mindgames, and you got a scared diddy. I do need help vs Meta, though.

 

[Browny]

dsmash is bad smash

only use it to camp landing lag of characters who cant do anything about it like maybe DK, diddy... any character with bad aerial movement/big hurtbox + bad fairs for landing with.

 

[Camalange]

I personally like to charge Dsmashes when I notice my opponent spot dodging a lot.

I never expect it to kill (unless they're like at 110%) but it can usually get them offstage and set up for a edgehog/gimp.

Also maybe analyze ShadoFiend/SM5/Wes then move on to RE-analyzations.

 

[platiepoos]

I've never seen Shado play.

__X__ is talked about a lot here, I've seen his vids and he's probably one of my favorite Sonics to watch.
His style seems very spin based, often using two specials without landing.

Shugo is also very interesting, and he'd be good to analyze after his 5th place at Midwest.
Plus Shugo vs. OS is one of my favorite sets. (Bless you Infzy)

 

[Isatis]

The only time I like to Dsmash is when I uthrow onto a ceiling and my opponent doesn't tech, then the Dsmash is set up and I can rack up damage.

Other than that, my experiences with Dsmash is that whenever I try and use it, it can either get punished during its ending lag (shieldgrab), or that with the first spin's KO move already done, the second spinaround doesn't have as much knockback as the first spin.

 

[Tenki]

Can someone compare D-smash + slight charge (sweetspot, of course) with F-smash no-charge and see how similar they are?

That is, in terms of KO power - D-smash charged to be as slow as F-smash.

 

[Camalange]

This is off topic but Up-Angled Fsmash is amazing.


I swear its range doubles in brokeness xD
It's so amazing against people approaching in the air. People should use it more cuz I honestly don't see people utilizing it enough.

 

[Espy Rose]

This is off topic but Up-Angled Fsmash is amazing.


I swear its range doubles in brokeness xD
It's so amazing against people approaching in the air. People should use it more cuz I honestly don't see people utilizing it enough.

You can't be serious.

I use it practically 90% of the time that I fsmash.

 

[Camalange]

Whuuuuuut


Those live stream/camcorder recordings must be too low quality for me to even see the angle.

;P

 

[infomon]

(Bless you Infzy)

*takes a bow*

Can someone compare D-smash + slight charge (sweetspot, of course) with F-smash no-charge and see how similar they are?

That is, in terms of KO power - D-smash charged to be as slow as F-smash.

D-smash hitbox comes out 1 frame before Fsmash.... Dsmash charged for one frame prolly isn't any different than C-sticked Dsmash. Though I wonder if the increase in damage/knockback from a move is linear by number of frames or if it increases discontinuously, that is, in discrete segments by some number of frames (or perhaps time units which don't align perfectly with frames lol).

Those live stream/camcorder recordings must be too low quality for me to even see the angle.

pffft.... blame infzy...... at least platiepoos appreciates me

Spoiler

cama<3

Spoiler

ok what the heck, the name platiepoos is srsly lol

 

[platiepoos]

He must be on something, because I can clearly see the angling of ROB's fsmashes.

 

[JayBee]

This is off topic but Up-Angled Fsmash is amazing.


I swear its range doubles in brokeness xD
It's so amazing against people approaching in the air. People should use it more cuz I honestly don't see people utilizing it enough.

I dont think Dsmash is a bad smash if we often are used to mindgaming a techinically slower smash that hits only on one side, with no IASA frames.

I've been trying to test lately how an angled turnaround Fsmash can be used to catch aerial approaches. the key obviously is spacing, at leat i'd like to think so. I know that if you are just out side of marth's range when he does an attack, you can theoretically punish wit it, and with a disjoint and lean like Fsmash, I had to give it a try. Not much success tho as of yet.

as for Dsmash usage, i treat it the same way i do with Fsmash for the most part. Except that i can recognize the fact the Dsmash seems to "dodge" moves at times due to sonic going into ball form. I've also noticed that I have tried to punish Dsmashes with things like dashgrabs, only to get grabbed back. meaning that those not accustomed to IASA frames could walk right into a trap.

I also use it in upthrow games when I dont want to gues the DI, since it attacks both sides. I've been known to chase with Hyphen smash or whatever afterwards.


And I guess I'll do Shadofiend's style over the weekend.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Anyone who has seen my style can agree that its all about footwork. i don't really rely on spindash that much unless there is an opening. Kojin you have seen my style first hand. You can analyze it if you want. You don't have to do.

 

[JayBee]

wow. looks like i wont do it then,


im going to bed.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Anyway I usually use D Smash in two positions.

One is usually after a missed F Smash. So when someone comes to punish they get hit right in the face. I mean. I don't use it as reckless. I watch them the entire match. To see if they go for punishes alot or if they are kinda holding back. Just so I don't get grabbed still

Second i use it vs other Sonics that love to spring and dair. Dair into a charged D smash = oh so sexy.

 

[JayBee]

trufax dat

 

[~TBS~]

well, i either use it in two situations. Either I charge it up near an opponent to punish a spotdodge, or I throw it out there after DDP. That surprisingly works.

 

[ShadoFiend]

I was wondering why the heck you were doing that. You never did it before but I was just like..why?

Anyway new vid for you Kojin/SM5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ZN9aVeuDA&feature=channel_page


SM5 sorry I can't make Chu's. You better get top 10 or im not talking to you anymore. Lol ;0

 

[JayBee]

DDp into Dsmash? are you shield canceling the run beforehand or what?

 

[~TBS~]

that vid was too good. MD/VA with the spiciest Steaks? I like it.

And dont worry Shado, i got this. No johns, i am taking top 8.

@Kojin
sometimes i do. I gotta tone down on dsmash though. Fsmash ftw.

 

[JayBee]

o u goin to genesis?

EC got the most steak, and VA/MD is the best. rep it son.

 

[~TBS~]

i cant go to genesis.

Malcolm and Shado are going for sure. But i havent even registered, dont have the money, nor do i have a ride to make it out there. Imma have to cheer them on from the stream.

 

[JayBee]

wait. malcolm doesn't play sonic anymore...

or did he come to his sences and decided that he'll play both sonic and wario?

 

[ShadoFiend]

He's playin Sonic at Genesis. I got him too

 

[JayBee]

he should. its a good idea and no one should really know what to do against a good sonic. its hilarious how many times you hear that.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

You could look at my style, i'm interested to what the Sonic boards think. I think I already posted my recent vids here, you could also check out the video thread.

DSmash? I use it to punish spotdodges and as a unpredictable kill move.

 

[JayBee]

RASC- reverse aerial spin charge

you knwo what? not often do i see a RAR ASC in matches. if you don't know

RAR- Reverse Aerial Rush - buffering back during a run to do aun aerial facing away from an opponent.

ASC- Aerial Spin Charge - Sonic's Down B special in the air.


so combined, call this a RASC.

I can't do any testing this weekend, but i realyl would like people to see if they can work on it and see what the yfind interesting, or if you do use it, why havent i fricking seen it?


Most sonic's dont ASC (or RASC) offstage as part of thier edge gaurd either, why is that, and shoudl this be explored?

 

[Chis]

I use this all the time, not much use offstage really though...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't do this OFTEN but you can RASC off the stage as they're recovering low and stage spike them. I usually prefer bair but they EXPECT that. ASC looks like you're just going for more damage. It's semi-hard to get back up after though.

 

[infomon]

Most sonic's dont ASC (or RASC) offstage as part of thier edge gaurd either, why is that, and shoudl this be explored?

IMO it's because people aren't often recovering that low (stage-level or lower). And if they are, then whatever recovery method they have would be able to wreck an incoming ASC... unless you're able to mindgame them into using their up-B recovery early to hit you, so they miss the ledge

And even if you do hit them with ASC... what then? It pops them up; not enough to kill them (unless crazy %), and they'd have to be real close to the edge for it to stage-spike, which doesn't happen very much (at least not in a way that you could be there with a spindash, and their up-B won't wreck it on its way to the ledge).

Dair + spring + etc so much safer than getting close to the opponent.

It's semi-hard to get back up after though.

Offstage ASC > footstool gimp would be real awesome tho, if it could ever be pulled off

 

[Tenki]

Well, one thing nice about it is that you completely start off moving in the opposite direction at full (?) speed whereas side-B makes you stop first - and you can float while you charge so it's a little trickier.

You can use it to immediately escape the range of an attack and either shield cancel or double jump aerial to counter it.

 

[JayBee]

i think another use is to fake an edge gaurd with the ASC, then you can JC bair, or even spin shot back to the stage. maybe if someone is holding the edge too long you can hit them ans stage spike them? you still have spring too. for me, its another different look that may throw them off gaurd.

on the ground, i think as you are running from an attack it helps avoid and prepare an attack at the same time, and we all know what ASC is so we know all the options you can do.

 

[B.A.M.]

i use it quite a bit actually. As Tenki stated,I use it to escape an attack, then i often punish with a IDA or a bair. Offstage, honestly spring and dair are better for low recoveries in my opinion. O and i know your onto a new topic, but I just want to say I believe that Dsmash is another great tool for sonic's air chasing game. Although it does get outprioritized by some dairs, it covers a lot of room and being that youre sonic its not hard to get within close proximity of a landing opponent no matter what type of mindgames they employ. Also if they airdodge and get hit with the soft hit, thats usually a free dash grab>pummel>upthrow with another chance to air chase.

 

[infomon]

ooh! I want to try edgeguarding with ASC > spring

that is, approach them with spindash, then immediately backwards-spring out

just because ppl don't usually spring out of a spindash lulz, they might think you're approaching with the spindash where really you're using it to get a spring into where it will be most annoying for their recovery

 

[Umby]

RASC seems like it'd be a cool cross up, especially for people expecting an aerial approach. Kinda like Jiggs or Wario landing aerials behind you to avoid shield grabs/OoS options upon landing. I'll play around with it, I suppose.

 

[Chis]

I used to try and edge guard with ASC. It never worked once. I like RASC more than ASC because it's more aggressive so I find it easier to bait with.