Guide Knitting a Yoshi Chart - MU Portal

[Sneak Sneaks]

Yoshi is one of Kirby's worst MUs

As for Megaman he also loses the Matchup but it's not unwinnable.

I don't think there are many "non top tier" characters that beat Yoshi, some Yoshi mains think the marth/Lucina/Roy MU is bad but I personally don't agree with that. However, there are many characters that goes even against him.

Could you mention them please?

 

[ReturningFall]

Back in the day, (meaning 3ds days) there was talk of Megaman defeating Yoshi. There was also talk of Yoshi defeating Megaman. Not many conclusions were drawn. It all kinda died down (at least on our end) when people quit playing Mega.

Honestly, practicing Mega might be a better option than trying to pick up someone else. You want to zone aggressively and play defensively to rack up damage. Yoshi will want to weave and out to try and force a bad reaction, just play defensively and maintain your space. You can kill with a throw and Yoshi can't. Yoshi also doesn't have many options against shield except for egg lay. Abuse this fact when he gets too close.

Watch out for eggs and try to keep in pellet range so you can punish bad egg tosses (not with pellets, with...other stuff). Throw other weapons if he seems sufficiently far away to zone.

Honestly, the tendency on this board is to disagree on MU spread. It really tends to depend on how your opponent plays. And most of the Yoshi boards seem to have differing ideas on how to play Yoshi.

I personally think Megaman-Yoshi is more favorable to Mega than the Marth-Yoshi matchup. And on that note, I'm not sure who wins the Marth-Yoshi Matchup. A lot of the better players think it's Marth and having played both sides, I'm starting to lean that direction. All-in-all its probably roughly even. So MM-Yoshi should be probably about even as well. In that MU it's also a case of lots of damage, both sides struggling for the kill.

 

[CalebGamer14]

Hi guys I was wondering how do I play the Fox,Falcon and Pika MU as Yoshi. I'm going to a local this week and there is a few of them.So I'm trying to beat them what do I do?

 

[Delta-cod]

Hi guys I was wondering how do I play the Fox,Falcon and Pika MU as Yoshi. I'm going to a local this week and there is a few of them.So I'm trying to beat them what do I do?

Given that you were looking for advice in multiple MUs, I've merged this with the general MU thread.

I don't really have too much practical advice for any of them. They're all kinda quick, so you want to stay away from laggy, committal moves, and try to keep out of trouble from them. Things to watch out for:

Fox: Fair -- can be canceled into the ground, sets up for combos/kills.

Falcon: Dash Grab -- His grab is INSANE. Also, don't roll, Raptor Boost will wreck you. Don't stay above him, his Uair has great coverage as well.

Pika: I don't know.

For more Fox discussion, you can look here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-vs-fox.385308/

Hopefully others can chime in with their knowledge. To me, these MUs seem very player based, so if you know what the other character is capable of, you just need to play around their plans and play to your strong points.

 

[Micaelis]

Does anyone have any help for Ness? I keep running into Ness's that turtle in their shield a lot and I struggle to wrack up damage and kill. He has quick, large hit box aerials that work great OoS and all he has to do is grab you to kill you past 90%.

RTC has helped TREMENDOUSLY in the MU but I'm still wondering if anyone has some good spacing and mindset tips.

Hi guys I was wondering how do I play the Fox,Falcon and Pika MU as Yoshi. I'm going to a local this week and there is a few of them.So I'm trying to beat them what do I do?

Fox: Good Fox's will FH right in front of you then bait a commitment with their DJ followed by Falling Fair/Nair or empty landing > Grab. He falls fast too so it is extremely hard to try to react to the option he chooses.

You have to understand that Fox has horrible air speed so he can't really approach in the air. Expect him to approach on the ground and only Egg Toss when he is far away because he is so fast. When he is close and he FHs in front of you, instead of playing his game, either FH Nair OoS immediately or wait for his DJ bait and punish accordingly. Don't wait for him to choose his option first.

Falcon: Similar to Fox in that he primarily stays grounded in his approach but he CAN mix it up very successfully with SH Landing Uair which at mid percents combos into Knee. So approach Falcon in a similar way, learn his long range threat game, throw eggs when safe, once he comes in, pick safe options to stick his approach and don't get baited by Backward Rolls or other quick backward to forwards movement techniques. NEVER AIR DODGE vs Falcon when being juggled by Uair. Uair's knockback was nerfed and almost never kills now but an air dodge leads to Knee or Dair which will kill you.

Pikachu: I do not have enough experience in this MU but due to his combo strings and small frame, Nair and Jab are your go-to attacks here (like usual). Don't even try to out speed his Fair with your own. Be careful of cross ups on your shield because his Fair has so much hit stun now. He can reliably Fair your shield, land behind you, then Utilt to start a combo string.

RTC is very useful for the Fox and Falcon match ups since they mostly stay grounded and RTC enables you to quickly create and close space into standing Grab or Single Jab when appropriate.

 

[Lukingordex]

Does anyone have any help for Ness? I keep running into Ness's that turtle in their shield a lot and I struggle to wrack up damage and kill. He has quick, large hit box aerials that work great OoS and all he has to do is grab you to kill you past 90%.

RTC has helped TREMENDOUSLY in the MU but I'm still wondering if anyone has some good spacing and mindset tips.

What does RTC means?

Ness struggles approaching Yoshi because he's kinda slow, try to keep your distance and don't let him approach you. If he does, pay attention for what kind of options he seems to be using. If he's grab happy, try using SH nair. If he likes SH aerials like Nair, Fair or Bair, try to powershield and the punish with an Oos option like Nair. After you get that punish hit run away from him.

Tl;DR: play lame

 

[Delta-cod]

Does anyone have any help for Ness? I keep running into Ness's that turtle in their shield a lot and I struggle to wrack up damage and kill. He has quick, large hit box aerials that work great OoS and all he has to do is grab you to kill you past 90%.

RTC has helped TREMENDOUSLY in the MU but I'm still wondering if anyone has some good spacing and mindset tips.

What's RTC?

I think you want to out turtle Ness in this MU. His Fair is kind of obnoxious, but I don't think it beats eggs out. If he's going for the aerial approach you just pelt him out of the air. If he's staying grounded, you gotta be less committal, but I think SHET to try to open him up is a good thing to try.

I definitely wouldn't try to pressure his shield.

I can't think of anything else that's really important except making sure you mess him up off stage. If you can get him out of his DJ, he should die because lol PKT.

 

[Micaelis]

Those are great suggestions... If these Ness's did anything committal. By turtling I meant, they run up and hold shield then either react to me leaving the ground by spot dodging (which beats SH Aerial/Egg Lay) or OoS Retreating Nair. If I stay grounded, they typically roll forward if they see me approach or roll/run back if I do nothing.

This style of play is the one I have the hardest time against because I like PLAYING Smash but these people just let me play around them and react accordingly. It's very frustrating because Yoshi has the inherent weakness of a slow Dash Grab and Standing Grab. Both often just get beat in terms of speed by faster options (mostly Jabs or Grabs from them) not to mention our risk vs reward scenario is Super High Risk vs Super Low Reward. Dthrow does 4% and does not combo while missing a Dash Grab, Bowser can Fsmash you for crying out loud.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I love Yoshi in this game but get annoyed losing situations (quite often) to such a large character weakness. Due to the punish game in this game, winning the neutral is so extremely important and Yoshi is just purely handicapped in it.

What does RTC means?

RTC stands for Run Turnaround Cancel. I made a post in depth with a video link to the Yoshi Metagame Discussion thread located here http://smashboards.com/threads/colo...scussion-and-tips.395715/page-6#post-20209422

I also recently learned about Sliding Pivots and will be working that into my game too. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pgSYA8QrviE

Thankfully Yoshi has a decent RTC and Sliding Pivot which really help his spacing game both on the ground and in the air.

Edit: If I came off as ungrateful, I apologize. That style of play just frustrates me and it leaked into my response. I really am very grateful for any and all responses.

 

[CalebGamer14]

Given that you were looking for advice in multiple MUs, I've merged this with the general MU thread.

I don't really have too much practical advice for any of them. They're all kinda quick, so you want to stay away from laggy, committal moves, and try to keep out of trouble from them. Things to watch out for:

Fox: Fair -- can be canceled into the ground, sets up for combos/kills.

Falcon: Dash Grab -- His grab is INSANE. Also, don't roll, Raptor Boost will wreck you. Don't stay above him, his Uair has great coverage as well.

Pika: I don't know.

For more Fox discussion, you can look here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-vs-fox.385308/

Hopefully others can chime in with their knowledge. To me, these MUs seem very player based, so if you know what the other character is capable of, you just need to play around their plans and play to your strong points.

Ok thanks

Does anyone have any help for Ness? I keep running into Ness's that turtle in their shield a lot and I struggle to wrack up damage and kill. He has quick, large hit box aerials that work great OoS and all he has to do is grab you to kill you past 90%.

RTC has helped TREMENDOUSLY in the MU but I'm still wondering if anyone has some good spacing and mindset tips.



Fox: Good Fox's will FH right in front of you then bait a commitment with their DJ followed by Falling Fair/Nair or empty landing > Grab. He falls fast too so it is extremely hard to try to react to the option he chooses.

You have to understand that Fox has horrible air speed so he can't really approach in the air. Expect him to approach on the ground and only Egg Toss when he is far away because he is so fast. When he is close and he FHs in front of you, instead of playing his game, either FH Nair OoS immediately or wait for his DJ bait and punish accordingly. Don't wait for him to choose his option first.

Falcon: Similar to Fox in that he primarily stays grounded in his approach but he CAN mix it up very successfully with SH Landing Uair which at mid percents combos into Knee. So approach Falcon in a similar way, learn his long range threat game, throw eggs when safe, once he comes in, pick safe options to stick his approach and don't get baited by Backward Rolls or other quick backward to forwards movement techniques. NEVER AIR DODGE vs Falcon when being juggled by Uair. Uair's knockback was nerfed and almost never kills now but an air dodge leads to Knee or Dair which will kill you.

Pikachu: I do not have enough experience in this MU but due to his combo strings and small frame, Nair and Jab are your go-to attacks here (like usual). Don't even try to out speed his Fair with your own. Be careful of cross ups on your shield because his Fair has so much hit stun now. He can reliably Fair your shield, land behind you, then Utilt to start a combo string.

RTC is very useful for the Fox and Falcon match ups since they mostly stay grounded and RTC enables you to quickly create and close space into standing Grab or Single Jab when appropriate.

DI away from him when he fairs or down throws you and mash your double jump you get away from him doing 30% to you. Also never go off stage when he is PK Thundering he will kill you at 60%.Also don't use fair a lot nair is your go to move it's fast and nesses fair is faster then ares.Hope this helps you a little.

 

[Delta-cod]

Those are great suggestions... If these Ness's did anything committal. By turtling I meant, they run up and hold shield then either react to me leaving the ground by spot dodging (which beats SH Aerial/Egg Lay) or OoS Retreating Nair. If I stay grounded, they typically roll forward if they see me approach or roll/run back if I do nothing.

Run up shield is an inherently good option against Yoshi, I agree. If you truly are aware of your opponents' habits, though, you should be able to get around this. Have you considered just poking them with Dtilt as they run at you or something? You'll whittle their shield down eventually. If they're continuously picking defensive options you can bait one out and punish. What you're describing is hard to accurately address without vids, and without them all I can really say is "try to be better than them".

If spot dodge/OoS Retreating Nair are their options of choice, you should pick things that beat those options. Delayed SH Aerials work. Fair has long range, you could space that. SHAD > Nair or something could also be the ticket.

You can also SH away as they run at you then Egg Toss them. It'll whittle their shield down until they eventually stop, I imagine.

This is a bit harder to deal with due to the lack of a good pivot grab. You could try preempting them and hitting them before they'd expect to need to shield. Even if they do shield, rushing them with a Dair could work to pop the shield or poke them, setting you up?

CalebGamer14 Please don't double post. Use the edit function to add more to your last post, rather than posting two in a row.

 

[Omegascizor456]

Personally i like fighting sheik more than fighting yoshi... i am a rob main so i guess its a poor mu but still, i feel i need a secondary... so who does yoshi lose hard to?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Personally i like fighting sheik more than fighting yoshi... i am a rob main so i guess its a poor mu but still, i feel i need a secondary... so who does yoshi lose hard to?

I mean if it's a Yoshi ditto it's impossible for the winner to not be a Yoshi... basically what Im saying is JOIN US :D

 

[Delta-cod]

Personally i like fighting sheik more than fighting yoshi... i am a rob main so i guess its a poor mu but still, i feel i need a secondary... so who does yoshi lose hard to?

Try Sheik and Diddy. They should beat Yoshi. I don't think any other character is quite advantaged as these two. Most of Yoshi's MUs against good characters are evenish.

Rosalina might also be a character worth trying, but that MU not be bad for Yoshi unless you're REALLY good with her. I don't think it's bad period, but I don't have much experience to back that claim.

 

[Omegascizor456]

I mean if it's a Yoshi ditto it's impossible for the winner to not be a Yoshi... basically what Im saying is JOIN US :D

i really dislike yoshi as a character tbh... the rob yoshi mu is way in his favor and they like to act like rob wins it... yoshis moves make robs moves almost obselete :/

 

[CalebGamer14]

Run up shield is an inherently good option against Yoshi, I agree. If you truly are aware of your opponents' habits, though, you should be able to get around this. Have you considered just poking them with Dtilt as they run at you or something? You'll whittle their shield down eventually. If they're continuously picking defensive options you can bait one out and punish. What you're describing is hard to accurately address without vids, and without them all I can really say is "try to be better than them".

If spot dodge/OoS Retreating Nair are their options of choice, you should pick things that beat those options. Delayed SH Aerials work. Fair has long range, you could space that. SHAD > Nair or something could also be the ticket.

You can also SH away as they run at you then Egg Toss them. It'll whittle their shield down until they eventually stop, I imagine.

This is a bit harder to deal with due to the lack of a good pivot grab. You could try preempting them and hitting them before they'd expect to need to shield. Even if they do shield, rushing them with a Dair could work to pop the shield or poke them, setting you up?

CalebGamer14 Please don't double post. Use the edit function to add more to your last post, rather than posting two in a row.

ok

 

[James Mesa]

What topics are next for MU discussion?

 

[Sinister Slush]

It can be whatever honestly, MU discussion doesn't seem to be a priority for a lot of character boards so dunno if this'll be done anytime soon.

 

[James Mesa]

Hm. Alright. I haven't necessarily seen too much for Olimar. I've noticed that fair works really well for getting off Pikmin. Keeping him off the ground is a priority from what ive been told since we can stop him from pulling out his pikmin. Other than his super armor frames on his downB he has a hard time getting back on his feet. His recovery is super linear and if we get him out of his jump and enough distance from ledge it looks like a guaranteed stock thanks to fair.

 

[Pixel_]

MU discussion doesn't seem to be a priority for a lot of character boards

Does anybody else think the Yoshi boards should focus more on MU threads? Most of them seem pretty outdated.
I mean, this (below) still applies, right?

Yoshi is a very hard character to shut down, and it’s this strength that allows him to remain competitive. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to provide general advice for playing Neutral as Yoshi, because it all depends so much on who you’re fighting against.

 

[Sinister Slush]

A lot of em are outdated of course because no discussion and most of the threads were made/had discussion during periods where it was on a previous patch.

That's also kinda one reason why I've been hesitant on doing this and most likely the reason there isn't a Smash 4 backroom to do a MU chart Tier list rulesets etc. Patches changing in terms of buffs/nerfs and adding new characters. If it continues, there could possibly be 60 characters in this game by the time Nintendo gets bored of patching this game and moves on to their next console NX and makes a 5th smash in a couple years.

 

[Delta-cod]

Does anybody else think the Yoshi boards should focus more on MU threads? Most of them seem pretty outdated.
I mean, this (below) still applies, right?

As Slush touched on, it actually is REALLY difficult to get large scale projects going due to the frequency of patches and new character additions.

Take the most recent patch, for example. The shield stun changes have altered a lot of our viable tools, as well as altering the viable tools of other characters. This should have an effect on lots of match ups, meaning that if we actually had gotten around to discussing all of them, I'd wager around half would need updating. That takes TONS of effort, especially considering the fact that you won't even encounter most characters in a tournament setting. The frequency of patches also makes starting large-scale data projects (true combos, shield strings, etc.) not entirely worthwhile, because all that effort could be made irrelevant come the next patch.

The current "system" we have for MU discussion is satisfactory, imo. If you're ever interested in receiving help on a match up, do a quick search in the OP here (if Sinister Slush has been keeping the directory updated with our threads) to see if a thread already exists. If it doesn't, make a new one, preferably titled something like "MU Discussion: __________" so it's easy to find. If one already exists, read through it, but if you want more clarification or more advice, just bump it up.

The way this format works is that we don't create a ton of threads on obscure characters that get like, 2 posts and die, thus cluttering the boards, but we do manage to cover the characters people struggle with around their scenes, so we hit all the tournament threats.

Maybe when we get confirmation of no further patches we'll be able to take on a large scale project. But until then I think the need-based discussion format is good.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Last time I updated was July, so it's kinda recent. Most of the character boards have their own MU thread too you can look through, not specifically yoshi but y'know.
In terms of Yoshi discussion, I think there hasn't been many new ones since then except maybe Greninja?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Does anyone have any help for Ness? I keep running into Ness's that turtle in their shield a lot and I struggle to wrack up damage and kill. He has quick, large hit box aerials that work great OoS and all he has to do is grab you to kill you past 90%.

RTC has helped TREMENDOUSLY in the MU but I'm still wondering if anyone has some good spacing and mindset tips.



Fox: Good Fox's will FH right in front of you then bait a commitment with their DJ followed by Falling Fair/Nair or empty landing > Grab. He falls fast too so it is extremely hard to try to react to the option he chooses.

You have to understand that Fox has horrible air speed so he can't really approach in the air. Expect him to approach on the ground and only Egg Toss when he is far away because he is so fast. When he is close and he FHs in front of you, instead of playing his game, either FH Nair OoS immediately or wait for his DJ bait and punish accordingly. Don't wait for him to choose his option first.

Falcon: Similar to Fox in that he primarily stays grounded in his approach but he CAN mix it up very successfully with SH Landing Uair which at mid percents combos into Knee. So approach Falcon in a similar way, learn his long range threat game, throw eggs when safe, once he comes in, pick safe options to stick his approach and don't get baited by Backward Rolls or other quick backward to forwards movement techniques. NEVER AIR DODGE vs Falcon when being juggled by Uair. Uair's knockback was nerfed and almost never kills now but an air dodge leads to Knee or Dair which will kill you.

Pikachu: I do not have enough experience in this MU but due to his combo strings and small frame, Nair and Jab are your go-to attacks here (like usual). Don't even try to out speed his Fair with your own. Be careful of cross ups on your shield because his Fair has so much hit stun now. He can reliably Fair your shield, land behind you, then Utilt to start a combo string.

RTC is very useful for the Fox and Falcon match ups since they mostly stay grounded and RTC enables you to quickly create and close space into standing Grab or Single Jab when appropriate.

What does RTC stand for?

As for Megaman he also loses the Matchup but it's not unwinnable.

I'm somebody who has ample experience in this MU (my brother is a MM main), and I tend to see it as even. Could you explain more on that?

 

[noft]

Hi guys I was wondering how do I play the Fox,Falcon and Pika MU as Yoshi. I'm going to a local this week and there is a few of them.So I'm trying to beat them what do I do?

every pikachu ive played on anthers tend to try to surprise you with up if ur at projectile range "term used in combatives for when ur not with grabbing or striking range" staying in the air using double jump fast fall seems to help againts this, butif u notice pikachu sitting back with nuetral b, be prepared for that up b, what u will want to do is play the punish game with him, once uve Achieved punishes more then likely he will try to shield more use this conditioning to obtain grabs and keep him off the ledge, even though trying to go off stage to ledge guard pikachu is dangerous, keeping him off the ledge by propper read grabs after conditioning is a safe way to rack up a little damage, nair when he up b's, and playing reactive punish rather then going aggressive is what i started doing against him which works. dont let the neutral b up b mind games get to you, keep your cool and finish the fight

 

[W.A.C.]

So I permanently main both Diddy Kong and Meta Knight, but I repicked up Yoshi some time ago and I'm trying to figure out which matchups Yoshi fares better against compared to both Diddy Kong's and Meta Knight's matchups. Anyone here have any idea? Basically who does Yoshi trash up that neither of my other mains trash up? Only one I can think of looking at the first post is ROB.

 

[Cat8752]

Guys could you redirect me to the ZSS specific thread? I do super poorly vs her.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Spoiler: Incredibly outdated, MU for Yoshi is prolly -2 for us along with Diddy.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-mission-compreeh-fox.372321/page-4#post-18466890

Planning to tidy up this thread during the weekend maybe since a Direct is tomorrow when means possibly more characters after it/soon or an update as well.

 

[The Wall]

Spoiler: Incredibly outdated, MU for Yoshi is prolly -2 for us along with Diddy.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-mission-compreeh-fox.372321/page-4#post-18466890

Planning to tidy up this thread during the weekend maybe since a Direct is tomorrow when means possibly more characters after it/soon or an update as well.

Personally I've never struggled with her. Beat all of Houston's ZSS's no issue. Fought ALSM with his at Battlegrounds, no issue. Fought Dakpo multiple times, no issue. Fought Nick Riddle at MLG, no issue.

I think that people just aren't properly using the spacing tools Yoshi has vs her. You can low profile her jabs and up tilt with your own up tilt, down b, or down tilt. The boots are pretty much rubber and you can land with nair to get rid of the paralyzer or just straight dash attack into it. Air game wise just don't get caught by her jump up air strings because she's insanely fast to catch you when you're falling. Use double jump armor to your advantage (it will even negate the stun from paralyzer if you want to be extra risky).

 

[Cat8752]

Personally I've never struggled with her. Beat all of Houston's ZSS's no issue. Fought ALSM with his at Battlegrounds, no issue. Fought Dakpo multiple times, no issue. Fought Nick Riddle at MLG, no issue.

I think that people just aren't properly using the spacing tools Yoshi has vs her. You can low profile her jabs and up tilt with your own up tilt, down b, or down tilt. The boots are pretty much rubber and you can land with nair to get rid of the paralyzer or just straight dash attack into it. Air game wise just don't get caught by her jump up air strings because she's insanely fast to catch you when you're falling. Use double jump armor to your advantage (it will even negate the stun from paralyzer if you want to be extra risky).

Any other advice for fighting zss? Also did you ever play Nick Riddle on stream?

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar sub-forum is discussing the Yoshi matchup. Any input is appreciated.

http://smashboards.com/threads/piklopedia-the-olimar-matchup-thread-ryu-yoshi.421920/

 

[The Wall]

Any other advice for fighting zss? Also did you ever play Nick Riddle on stream?

You need to know ZSS in order to play against her. Knowing exactly what frames she is vulnerable during her Flip Kick, knowing how to DI Boost kick properly (If she catches you facing the right side blast zone on the right side of the stage, you can DI it to the left hard and the final kick will actually send you left across the stage and most likely will not kill). Spacing is a big tool, ESPECIALLY if you're facing a campy ZSS who loves to enter with Zair. Zair will beat almost any option you have to the point where you need to dash in and power shield. It'll break eggs and short hopping will get you caught into a grab.

There's no videos of myself and Nick Riddle playing due to it being on a random setup. If I ever do get to fight some good ZSS's I'll try to get videos through replays or on a stream of sorts.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Who wins Ness vs Yoshi?

 

[The Wall]

Yoshi from my experience. Ness has a decent air game with a lingering nair, good range on up air, back air is a kill move when not staled or he can use it as a spacing tool in the neutral, and down air is trash. His ground game is a bit lacking especially with a low run speed, but if you're not ready for it his dash attack has a pretty good range and can pop you up.

His main problems lie in trying to challenge Yoshi's air game. Despite how good his moves are, the only move he can really use to challenge is his up air. Fair will net him 1% whereas a yoshi fair, bair, or nair will get 6-10 depending on how you hit it. On the ground he's very sparingly able to use PK fire without being punished for it since his does not move him back like Lucas's does. His PK thunder is a good tool but doesn't break double jump armor until ~85% (requires testing to get the exact number). He also has issues recovering vs Yoshi. You can't really challenge PK thunder 2 once he has himself flying, but if you're quick enough to spike or nair him before he hits himself he's already dead. If you're really ballsy you can try to go below him and then jump into the PK thunder to make it disappear and put him in special fall, or allow him to hit you with the Thunder 2, tech the wall and cause him to die from a reduced flight range.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrMUWjBU-m0

This is myself vs Houston's best Ness in Sm4sh. Game 1 is a plethora of mistakes by myself, game 2 really shows just how easy it is to beat Ness though if you know what you're doing.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

And vs. Pikachu/ZSS?

 

[The Wall]

50/50 with Pikachu.

Pikachu fair is a great spacing tool, quick attack is hard to punish having such a bad grab, and pikachu can go deep to counter our recovery if necessary. His only faults that give us a slight advantage are our fast nair breaking out of some aerial combos, our heavy weight compared to pikachu's light weight, and our egg projectile game.

55/45 vs ZSS in favor of Yoshi.

ZSS has great spacing tools but basically it's hard to find anyone that knows how to use them vs a GOOD yoshi. Yoshi has the ability to low profile a lot of her ground game while she goes about even with us in the air. Her up air strings combined with just catching you with a fast double jump into an up air is devastating. As well the roller coaster of doom being her Up B. Yoshi has the ability to DI out at lower percents and punish, but if they're good at carrying you to the top before starting it you're as screwed as anyone else. The biggest way to win this matchup is just learning when she's vulnerable after ending moves, especially the down B flip kick. If they're good at ledge cancelling or platform cancelling it you may as well scratch that one off the list.

 

[Cat8752]

You need to know ZSS in order to play against her. Knowing exactly what frames she is vulnerable during her Flip Kick, knowing how to DI Boost kick properly (If she catches you facing the right side blast zone on the right side of the stage, you can DI it to the left hard and the final kick will actually send you left across the stage and most likely will not kill). Spacing is a big tool, ESPECIALLY if you're facing a campy ZSS who loves to enter with Zair. Zair will beat almost any option you have to the point where you need to dash in and power shield. It'll break eggs and short hopping will get you caught into a grab.

There's no videos of myself and Nick Riddle playing due to it being on a random setup. If I ever do get to fight some good ZSS's I'll try to get videos through replays or on a stream of sorts.

Ah, I generally DI down in to keep from dying off the top. Btw when would you suggest I use shorthop airdodge vs ZSS and just in general? It's a tool I don't see to many Yoshis use often.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

50/50 with Pikachu.

Pikachu fair is a great spacing tool, quick attack is hard to punish having such a bad grab, and pikachu can go deep to counter our recovery if necessary. His only faults that give us a slight advantage are our fast nair breaking out of some aerial combos, our heavy weight compared to pikachu's light weight, and our egg projectile game.

You know, I've always considered that Pika is one of Yoshi's hardest MUs (between 45:55 and 40:60), but only at the top level where the character himself is utilized to the fullest. Otherwise I can see it as even.

I feel you should also mention Pika's potential to pressure shield with moves like Fair like you mentioned above. I think the same might apply to F-smash, but I could be wrong.

On the other hand, supporting your thoughts that it's not that disadvantageous, Pika has no reliable way to kill us in the air until really high percentages, and our far superior air mobility helps.

 

[The Wall]

If you're playing vs a good pikachu you're probably going to die to Up smash, Up throw + Down B, or a pivoted F Smash. Dying to anything else shows that you're making mistakes in areas where you have the advantage.

His fair has lingering shield pressure, but it doesn't actually put a lot of shield damage out. If he fairs your shield, simply hold and then release after he's done and reset the neutral. He gets nothing out of that exchange.

Ah, I generally DI down in to keep from dying off the top. Btw when would you suggest I use shorthop airdodge vs ZSS and just in general? It's a tool I don't see to many Yoshis use often.

Short hop airdodge to ZSS if you catch him playing the short hop game himself or if he's getting extremely grab heavy. If they're doing double jump shenanigans and trying to catch you when coming down from that, stay grounded and shield or cross up behind them when they come down with the nair as it only has a Forward 45 degree and an upward back side 45 degree hitbox so it would not hit if you cross up properly.

 

[Lukingordex]

What I need to do in the Roy, Captain Falcon and Toon Link Match Ups?

 

[The Wall]

Roy and Tink are difficult matchups for Yoshi. Anybody with a sword in general has guaranteed disjoints that are fairly obvious but still out prioritize anything you want to do.

Captain Falcon is a joke of a matchup for Yoshi due to his linear recovery and limited approach options (Dash attack, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab, or falling Nair/Up air). I've never struggled with any falcon to include Grimturtle who basically can't use him versus me (He switches over to fox which is more 50/50 based and allows him to blaster to force me to approach).

60-40 vs Captain Falcon, in Yoshi's favor.

55-45 vs Roy, in Yoshi's favor.

50-50 vs Tink.

Specifics:

Roy: Patient Roy's are the worst. If they're walking around the stage (not dashing or running) and spacing themselves properly you're going to have a difficult time. His F smash almost matches Bowser's in power and has a pretty generous sweet spot. His thundercats (up smash) lingers for ages and will catch your neutral get ups if you're not careful. At early percents he can grab into multiple nair strings or a fair and now he has stage control.

Your options versus him are to camp out with eggs (careful that he has the ability to dash under and then pop you from below), approach with egg lay if he's extremely defensive, dash attack for possible mix-ups (his jab can catch you from behind if you're not careful), or come down from the air with a spaced fair / dair mixup. Once you get him off stage at decent percents you can try to get behind him before he up b's and nail him with nair or bair for the stage spike. You can't edge guard him from the front due to his Up B's massive disjoint. My specific tactic I use to cover options is space yourself about 2-3 character body lengths distance from the edge as they grab, throw a slow lobbed egg in the air that will collide with their hand on the ledge. It covers Neutral, Attack, and Jump get up options. If they do neutral or attack and are hit by the egg, you can get an easy confirm fair spike to death. If they wait with invulnerability then release and jump you can dash attack on reaction to catch them. Because of where you're positioned, if they roll to avoid the egg you can immediately jab imagination (Jab 1 into probably down smash due to Roy's fast fall speed and weight) or you can egg lay neutral b for added damage.

The advantage in this matchup comes from well placed eggs and being able to juggle Roy from below. Once he's in the air, his dair is not a safe option to approach the ground with so catch them with egg traps or up air strings to pull ahead.

Toon Link: This character is a pain. Coming from Houston we have a plethora of extremely good Tink mains (PJ/Lucy/MellowDragon from the Brawl days, Gnes aka MLGnes who won the Dallas 2010 MLG, Jerm the man who taught PJ how to Toon Link). Tink's projectiles are overall better than ours. His bomb will go right through the egg no problems and has a massive blast radius AND is an easy combo tool into his fair, which if you're caught on the edge of the stage will end you around 80-90%. Boomerang can be angled in multiple ways to stop short hop or ground approaches, and his arrows if you're on a stage like Battlefield will essentially force you to approach from the air where Tink has some distinct advantages. He has run speed to boot and can chain you into a Mario esque combo with up airs into up smash for an easy 30-40 damage in the early game.

Tink in the air is a nightmare. Up air will take priority over ANYTHING you throw at him. Down B, Down air, Fair, etc. His fair and bair are extremely quick with power to boot, but they are beatable. His dair also has great edge guard potential and combo ability if you're at low percent. Lastly his grabs are pretty good, with excellent range and the ability to kill with back throw at medium-high percents depending on stage position.

Fighting Tink requires extremely fast reactions as well as a decent item game. Using z grabs to catch bombs mid flight and turn the tide in your favor is certainly one way to gain the advantage. Avoid boomerangs and arrows at all costs, power shielding is your friend. When recovering, be extra careful if he is hovering around next to the ledge as a down air will go THROUGH the stage and trump your DJ armor unless you're at extremely low percents. Never let him trump you, or else you'll be forced to recover high.

My suggestion is to stay away from being either directly above or below him and position more laterally towards his character in the air. Use short distance, far falling eggs from above to get an easier time of making it back to the ground and then use grabs to get him into the air. You do have a better opportunity to spike him with a fair during his up b animation over regular Link but it's still pretty precise to time. You'll have an easier time getting tink to the 100+ range and then come down on him with a fast fall dair off stage (making sure not to SD in the process).

Captain Falcon: As I said earlier, this match-up should be easy for Yoshi. Good Falcons love to dash dance and try to wait for you to essentially make a mistake before going in. Sometimes they'll yolo with the dash grab which you should be ready to punish. Captain Falcon is that magical height / weight where you can do a lot of nifty things to him that he really can't challenge. You can hold him in the Jab 1 infinite for a good 60-70% if you get it right which right there can win you an entire match. The one thing you really don't want to do is try to challenge his up airs. His legs are long and somewhat disjointed. If he down throws you and begins up air strings AND you're off stage trying to come back down, you're better off reaching for a ledge or air dodging through him to get back to center stage. Do not try to Fair or Nair his up airs, you will end up just eating more damage and the possibility of a chain into a knee.

If you can hit Captain and get him off stage, let the fun begin. If he goes low to recover and tries to jump then up b, fall down on him with a down air and DI yourself off of him at the end of it to cause it to send him straight down to his death (Be careful that he can instantly up b out of that and if he reverses it, he can grab you and now send YOU flying, so save your double jump as a precautionary measure). If he goes to the medium height and tries to side b to the stage, you can either hop over into a dair like before or fair him. If you do the dair option here, keep yourself on top of his body but on the opposite side of the blast zone. This will usually make them want to smash DI towards the blast zone to get away from your kicks. If you land the last kick in this position while they're smash DI'ing towards the blast zone you will KILL him. Video shows this can be done off of his Up B but it is also possible to perform on the side B.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSG_emidPjM (Go to 2:45 for an example and look at Grim's %)

As long as you're good at spacing fairs and have a decent neutral game with great egg placement, you'll win every time.