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Kirby's Toy Box - Kirby Moveset/AT/Competitive Discussion

Ansou

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Hmm I always thought that Grounding Stone was a Jab Lock move, but it just forces a new tech when hitting a lying target, correct? That's kinda weird and makes me a little sad thinking how cool it would be if it had jab locked.
 
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Asdioh

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I thought grounding stone did jab lock, which is why it was useful for footstool thingies.

Also, I'm not exactly sure about the details, but each angle of Fsmash has a different angle of knockback, with downward being the lowest trajectory. So it's theoretically better if you hit your opponent with it to get them offstage, but they're not quite in kill % range yet. Because then they'll be in a worse spot for recovering. *I think.*
 

kirbyfan66

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Grounding Stone definitely locks. Which is why Up Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt x3 -> Whatever is so silly. Fun combo on Diddy Kong, it probably works on other fast fallers but I practice it most against Diddy:

Up Tilt x2 -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt x3 -> Down Air -> Sourspot Up Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt xwhatever -> Forward Smash. Got it off in tournament once, was exciting, although I feel like the sourspot Up Tilt isn't guaranteed.

Good stuff to know on the angling, too. It's good to know. When they're at KO percentages, angle up; when they're almost there but not quite, angle down; and when you need the range, don't angle it at all. I'm just glad they all have uses!
 

Ansou

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Alright so if you guys can confirm that Grounding Stone locks, I'll believe you. I guess I'll just have to try it again tomorrow, maybe I was just mistaken. If it jab locks, that's really awesome and I'll have to continue practising it and actually implement it into my playing, but now I just really have to sleep...
 

Altair357

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The launch angle difference on down-angled forward smash is pretty minimal, but I guess you take what you can get.
 
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Ansou

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Grounding Stone definitely locks. Which is why Up Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt x3 -> Whatever is so silly. Fun combo on Diddy Kong, it probably works on other fast fallers but I practice it most against Diddy:

Up Tilt x2 -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt x3 -> Down Air -> Sourspot Up Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> Down Tilt xwhatever -> Forward Smash. Got it off in tournament once, was exciting, although I feel like the sourspot Up Tilt isn't guaranteed.

Good stuff to know on the angling, too. It's good to know. When they're at KO percentages, angle up; when they're almost there but not quite, angle down; and when you need the range, don't angle it at all. I'm just glad they all have uses!
Alright, so it does jab lock, but the timing seems to be incredibly strict. If you hit with the Grounding Stone just a little too late they will not be jab locked. You also need to immediately pop out of the stone and fast fall down into a D-Tilt which sometimes need to be turned around as well. By the way, it should only be D-Tilt x2 instead of x3 right? As the Grounding Stone itself also counts as a jab lock.
 

kirbyfan66

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Alright, so it does jab lock, but the timing seems to be incredibly strict. If you hit with the Grounding Stone just a little too late they will not be jab locked. You also need to immediately pop out of the stone and fast fall down into a D-Tilt which sometimes need to be turned around as well. By the way, it should only be D-Tilt x2 instead of x3 right? As the Grounding Stone itself also counts as a jab lock.
You're right, it should only be x2. I guess I'm so used to saying x3 that I got it wrong. =P

As far as the timing goes, it's normal, but since Grounding Stone does have startup to it - not a lot, but enough - it does make it a little strict. Also if they're too far from the ground it doesn't work, but that's to be expected.
 

Ansou

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You're right, it should only be x2. I guess I'm so used to saying x3 that I got it wrong. =P

As far as the timing goes, it's normal, but since Grounding Stone does have startup to it - not a lot, but enough - it does make it a little strict. Also if they're too far from the ground it doesn't work, but that's to be expected.
Yeah, the high startup on Grounding Stone is what makes it a bit difficult. It feels like it doesn't work if they are too close to the ground either as that will make them hit the ground earlier while you are still stuck in your startup animation. If they are too far from the ground they can DI away from you to avoid the Grounding Stone. I guess this is just a thing that takes a bit of practice. I'm pretty hyped to try out F-Throw -> FF U-Air -> PP U-Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> D-Tilt -> D-Tilt -> Hammer Bash. Feels like that could be a very heavy combo (66% or even more if you throw in some more U-Tilts/Pummels) from just a Grab.
 

WootSnorlax

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Ok, I have another stupid theory I need help with testing. So I know a lot of you guys have been saying that sourspot utilt -> dair is a true combo. While I personally haven't ever attempted it I was wondering if it hits them high enough to be able to footstool the opponent after the dair. I don't know at what % sourspot utilt -> dair works at, but maybe this could open something up for us?
 

Asdioh

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99% sure that wouldn't work. Are you think of getting a Stone combo after the footstool? The sour Uptilt->Dair is at lowish to middish percents. You can always get a grab after a Dair, so that's what I generally go for. Jab is also an option, if you want to get your opponent offstage.


Enjoy these last few hours, because after the patch hits, Kirby will be MASSIVELY BUFFED! hopefully
 
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WootSnorlax

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Asdioh Asdioh you know me so well. I just keep looking for hope that Kirby's specials can be useful outside of gimmicks. I was also wondering if you stay in the air long enough that dair will finish before you land? If you do stay in the air for a tiny bit and they are holding shield maybe you could use stone to break it.
 

kirbyfan66

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Yeah, I think we should test which moves are now safe on shield, so to speak. I've seen a lot of very silly setups because of this (Lucario D_D) and would like to know if Kirby can do anything. Of course, I'll test it myself and come back with results later.

I doubt Down Air is safe on shield. Would three frames change anything? Down Air is so unsafe unless it's Hup Cancelled.
 

Ansou

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Well they shouldn't be able to grab you in the middle of the attack anymore, but since it has 17 frames of ending lag, I don't think 3 frames of shield stun will do it. Haven't been able to test much at all though.
 

kirbyfan66

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Yeah, Kirby completely lacks blockstrings and a lot of his moves are still easy to punish on block. Any fast aerial or any good grab can do the trick. Down Air is still completely unsafe but we should have known that. =P

I guess our big question for this thread now is either finding blockstrings or finding ways around the fact that most of the cast has them but Kirby doesn't. And whatever other fun things we can find.
 

WootSnorlax

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Something I've theorycrafted and have been messing around with is, on taller characters, to try and do a full hop dair on shield and, before hitting the ground, end it with stone. It's kind of tricky to do without fastfalling, but this might prove to be useful. I'm going to try and test it the next time I play with someone and we are just experimenting/messing around.
 
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Poupoko

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If you only want Kirby as a secondary, it's probably for some particular MUs because Kirby has a lot of quirks against different characters. I don't really know Megaman's bad MUs, but I'd assume he has trouble with speedy combo oriented characters to which Kirby can help against (Sheik, Fox, etc.), but no guarantees. And just Megaman and Kirby leave some huge gaps, off the top of my head you have: Yoshi, Marios, Pikachu, Rosalina (is bad for Kirby, I think she's bad for Mega?), Falco, Pits...

But like I said, if you need help with some particular MUs and you really know Kirby would help, then it's best to explore the Kirby/other character MU to see Kirby's unique options for that MU.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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I'm pretty sure for Kirby Mario and falco aren't that hard, Pika is debatable and pits? I have no idea
 

TimG57867

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Honestly, Kirby is a great secondary for Megaman. Played right, he makes a solid answer :4sheik::4fox::4zss:and :4falcon: when played correctly. Not easy wins in some cases, but definitely much better than Megaman and a lot of other character in the cast by comparison. I don't know Megaman's matchup against :4rob: well but I'd imagine him being tough thanks to packing solid projectiles of his own a nice close quarters game to go with it. However, Kirby does well against him too has he can float over the gyro, duck lasers, juggles R.O.B, is hard for R.O.B to hit and grab, isn't too hard to gimp, and can take R.O.B's lasers and use them against him. I am not sure if he's really a problem for Megaman, but Kirby can do well against :4littlemac: too. While we have to respect his frame data, abusrd power, and ground game, we don't have to stay on the ground. We have 6 jumps which makes it easy for Kirby to bait stuff out and punish. We also duck a lot his moves which makes getting D-Tilts easy. Final Cutter can also through him off with good timing. Plus recovering against him is practically free unless you used up all your jumps and as for our ability to gimp him, well, I don't think I need to say much about that. lol

Also, I have a brother who played :4falco: with a passion in this game before making him a secondary, I can say that Kirby probably wins that matchup. It's lot like Sheik vs ZSS. A lot of the same advantages against Fox apply, only moreso here. On top of ducking lasers and being able to juggle him, we actually run faster that Falco and his recovery moves are easier to intercept. We can also crouch his grab at times and duck his N-Air. The main things you got watch out for though are his D-Air, D-Tilt, F-Air, and F-Smash. D-Tilt is a big one as it means you don't want to just carelessly run in on him as it's fast and kills. Short hop aerials seem pretty effective though. He also jumps higher so he'll be able to purse you in the better if he knocks you into the air. But it also means that he's easier to punish with Down B if you're both to high off the ground. In any case, he's definitely not a big issue for Kirby.

For :4mario: and :4drmario:, I'd argue Mario is even and Doctor Mario, we beat. Their main advantage is their frame data, Neutral B, and FLUDD/Cape which can gimp Final Cuttter. However, you should never recover high against them in general really. In Mario's case, we have the edge of having better recovery, multiple jumps to bait out moves and punish, and in general he's not the most unpredictable fighter. In the case of both, we can take their neutral B and use them to great effect thanks to our multiple jumps. This especially makes gimping them even easier. From expericence, I'd say Mario : Kirby is even and Doctor Mario we beat since he's actually slower than us, was worse recovery, and no FLUDD.

With :rosalina:, I don't know. While, she probably does beat Kirby, but it may be a lot more close than we realize. Luma's knockback and walling is dumb, but Kirby's crouch can actually quite effective in avoiding her grab and Luma. Our aerials, used right can beat out Luma, and if we take her ability, we can bean her and Luma as she lands. We can also exploit her recovery ruthlessly. Dabuz and Mike Kirby actually had a set back at Smash Attack 5, and Mike Kirby didn't do that bad considering it's well, DABUZ, and Rosalina benefits from customs pretty well too which makes her walling game even more potent. He actually opted to go Olimar following the first match.In the following Smash Attack, he actually won against Snakee as well. And this is all before the 1.1.0 buffs that really improved Kirby's combo game and we all saw how well Triple R wrecked Shydude yesterday right? While Rosalina is something to consider, I don't think she's the top tier Kirby has the most struggle against. I can see the matchup becoming closer or possibly favorable depending on future patches.

As I said before, between the both Megaman and Kirby, the main characters you'll want to watch out for is :4pit:,:4darkpit:,:4pikachu:, and :4yoshi:.

However, the Pits, despite their range and disjoints, are beatable for Kirby. While their Dash Attack is a pain, many of their other moves can be punished well and Final Cutter can take them by surprise. I have some good Pit players on my campus, and I feel that Kirby can win as long as he respects their range, side B, and baits and punishes well. I should also add if they recover below the stage, they can be gimped as they have no hit box. If near the ledge, they'll use side B into it. Shield and punish if you can.

Pikachu is tough, but Mike Kirby has demonstrated how Kirby can handle the matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z19Gmb8tO0

If you use Kirby against Pikachu, show that you can handle QA or they will abuse it. Jabs appear to do well. Probably N-Air and Up Tilt too. Inhale also makes dealing with Thunder jolts easier. But remember in general that F-Smash is hard to punish.

The only character I can see being an utter nightmare for both is Yoshi.

Having said all this, while the two's coverage together is pretty good, it isn't flawless. I agree that a 3rd or 4th character can make things perfect. For other character to use, here are suggestions:

:4diddy:: Does pretty well against Yoshi thanks to speed, weight, F-Air, bananna, and kill setups. This especially shows in a set between Angel Cortez and Raptor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtnsn6velxA

I'd imagine him doing pretty good in other matchups too.

:4falcon:: Seems to do well against Yoshi and can go toe to toe with Rosalina thanks to his hard hitting moves and speed. Dabuz actually opted to use Olimar against Fatality instead of Rosalina.

:4zss:: I don't think the Pits are too big of a problem, but she beats them along with Yoshi and Rosalina. She can be hard to use though.

:4luigi:: While not as good as before thanks to the nerfs, I still think he beats Pikachu as he's too floaty to combo, hits harder, has a N-Air to break combos and intercept Quick Attack, and good frame data to match Pikachu. Plus Pikachu's light so Back Throw can kill after some good damage.

These are just some suggestions though. It's a big game with big cast. Explore and see what works. I can say though that making Kirby a secondary for Megaman is a move you won't regret.
 
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Wintermelon43

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and we all saw well Triple R wrecked Shydude yesterday right?
Twitch was saying Kirby was top tier. And people on Twitch NEVER say anyone except for Rosalina is top tier if she's in a match (Unless she's fighting ZeRo)
 

TimG57867

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Twitch was saying Kirby was top tier. And people on Twitch NEVER say anyone except for Rosalina is top tier if she's in a match (Unless she's fighting ZeRo)
Yeah that was something. I personally think they were overreacting a bit, but it does go to show how underrated Kirby is. Another interesting thing is that they felt that Kirby will actually get better with the weaker shields. We might have that with salt as well, but I also think this shield nerf might not hurt Kirby as much as we think. I can only see a few of our matchups becoming notably harder due to it and I personally never really relied on run>shield that much to begin with. It just made nice approach at times and was a way for me to get a hold of my opponents style at the beginning of the match. I personally preferred aggressive play and our OoS really wasn't very good in the first place aside from shield grab as N-Air, Final Cutter, our Smashes, and F-Air are too slow and B-Air only worked from behind. Plus, the shield nerf seems to have made powershielding projectiles even easier as you know get less stun if you're off by a moment and generally Kirby is better off shielding on reaction and closing in. And while run>shield isn't as good, it's not like shield grab no longer works. Most moves are still pretty unsafe on shield. Also while the game being more mobile might seem like a huge problem, in practice, I don't think we're that hurt by it. We can actually force most of the game's speedy characters to approach and Kirby tends to do better if his opponent gets in his face anyway. And while we're slow, we aren't THAT slow. And we have multiple jumps so ground approach isn't our only option.

In turn, we actually have also gained as well. As I mentioned before, many projectiles have actually become weaker against well timed shields so if get used to power shielding rather than running and waiting in shield, our matchups agaisnt certain projectile characters might actually become EASIER. Plus D-Tilt, F-Air, and Up-Tilt are now safer on shield so in a pinch, we'll have an easier time hitting foes again before they can drop shield an punish. And we find use for D-Air and Down B yet. Also can't overlook our once horrid :4luigi: matchup now becoming doable.

On top of all that, who's to say the metagame will completely transition before the next patch? It's very possible that Nintendo will rebalance in the next patch to help characters that got indirectly nerfed while toning down ones that gained too much like :4pikachu:. We could end up benefiting a lot in the long run with the right buffs to our frame data. (And fix Final Cutter's range. PLEASE.) They'll definitely need to do something about that Diddy glitch. lol

But in any case, let's just wait and see how meta develops and focus our attention on BH5.
 
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Poupoko

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Eh. While I don't really agree with some of the MU analysis, keep in mind that Sneak Sneaks wants Kirby as a secondary to cover bad MUs. I agree that Kirby does handle a few things better than Mega and vice versa (as two characters usually do) and that Rosa, Mario, Pika, Pit, etc. are beatable with Kirby, but we have a less than stellar MU these characters, among others.

If someone has trouble against those characters with their main, I don't see why they'd switch to a secondary that would also have issues.
 
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Phan7om

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Twitch was saying Kirby was top tier. And people on Twitch NEVER say anyone except for Rosalina is top tier if she's in a match (Unless she's fighting ZeRo)
No dont listen to twitch chat, they'll say any character is top tier if they destroy a top 10 character, not taking into consideration the large skill gap between players. Same thing happens in Melee when M2K destroy marthss, falcons, spacies, etc with Pichu. Dont give your hopes up after that match, Kirby's still only pushing top 35 before the patch.
 
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TimG57867

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Eh. While I don't really agree with some of the MU analysis, keep in mind that Sneak Sneaks wants Kirby as a secondary to cover bad MUs. I agree that Kirby does handle a few things better than Mega and vice versa (as two characters usually do) and that Rosa, Mario, Pika, Pit, etc. are beatable with Kirby, but we have a less than stellar MU these characters, among others.

If someone has trouble against those characters with their main, I don't see why they'd switch to a secondary that would also have issues.
Don't get the wrong idea. I am not saying that Kirby is the BEST character to use against the ones that you mentioned (I still think Mario is even and Falco we beat but not too handily), but just stating that if you HAD to use Kirby for whatever reason, a lot of the matchups are doable. Not optimal but doable. I agreed that only using those two might not be such a good idea which is why I gave some other suggestions. I feel that unless you're maining something like :4pikachu:,:4sheik:, or :4zss:, you'll probably need 3-5 characters to cover all bad matchups. This was just to give some perspective.
 

Wintermelon43

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No dont listen to twitch chat, they'll say any character is top tier if they destroy a top 10 character, not taking into consideration the large skill gap between players. Same thing happens in Melee when M2K destroy marthss, falcons, spacies, etc with Pichu. Dont give your hopes up after that match, Kirby's still only pushing top 35.
I know that. They say that for everyone. I was just saying that they were when they always say Rosa is.
 

WootSnorlax

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I've been trying to work on my movement in general with the game and started learning how to do "Extended Dash Dancing" or "Dance Trotting" (I don't know the official name of it, I just quoted the My Smash Corner's Youtube channel). It's of course easier to pull off with other characters like Roy and Falcon, but I'm having trouble doing it as Kirby. Can anyone help me with the timing for Kirby? A video would help a lot.
 
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MrMFC

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I've been trying to work on my movement in general with the game and started learning how to do "Extended Dash Dancing" or "Dance Trotting" (I don't know the official name of it, I just quoted the My Smash Corner's Youtube channel). It's of course easier to pull off with other characters like Roy and Falcon, but I'm having trouble doing it as Kirby. Can anyone help me with the timing for Kirby? A video would help a lot.
I'm having some trouble with it too because I can't do the extended dash dance/foxtrot cancel for a 2nd time, only can turn around once. You have to time it quite late, just foxtrot and find out when it ends (when he stops dashing). Then when you got that timing in your mind try doing another foxtrot and immediately foxtrot in the opposite direction. Usually I just do some foxtrots so I got the timing and then start foxtrot cancelling/extended dash dancing.
My biggest mistakes are just timing it wrong and doing the second foxtrot to turn around too slow (practicing normal dash dancing could help a lot).

At 0:24 you can see it being performed by Kirby, would record it myself but don't have any time.

You have to time it quite late, maybe try changing the game's speed in training mode (with late I mean really late, basically when he's about to stand still).
 
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Altair357

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Is dance trotting basically dash right, dashdance right-left, dash left, dashdance left-right, repeat? It looks a bit different when I see people do it, so I'd assume the answer is no, but that's all I'm getting.
 
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Phan7om

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Is dance trotting basically dash right, dashdance right-left, dash left, dashdance left-right, repeat? It looks a bit different when I see people do it, so I'd assume the answer is no, but that's all I'm getting.
Yep exactly that. Its just the right-left dashdance needs to be almost the quickest it can possibly be. Once you get it down its actually quite simple. Not trying to brag but I can do it so consistently with Kirby its actually a bad habit of mine.

The timing... Idk how to explain it. If you use metronomeonline.com Imagine Falcon's timing being around 184 while Kirby's is around 152/160. Those felt the most consistent to me going at that beat, but that may be just because I already really know the ingame timing idk. See if that helps. The clicks are a bit annoying tho.
 
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WootSnorlax

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That actually helps a lot. I guess I was doing it too fast. I figured for other characters, that aren't Falcon or Roy, had a stricter timing so it would require you to go a lot faster. I actually didn't think about slowing it down. Thanks a lot!!
 

TanTaco

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Hey, first time posting here. I think it's been mentioned before but when Kirby inhales Rosalina, Luma CANNOT attack and just floats in front of kirby. My addition to this is info is that you can then spit Rosalina out to send Luma off the stage if you're facing the right direction. An alternative is to short hop towards Luma and to copy Rosa's ability to send Luma backwards; however, having to move around to position yourself can be "countered" if the Rosalina mashes in a way that makes you shake around. I tested out my new theory in a tournament set against a Rosa main in my scene:
http://www.twitch.tv/logicgatestudios/v/19782014?t=05m10s (I also recommend just watching the whole set)
When I try out spitting out Rosa: 7:13, 7:37
When I try copying Rosa: 14:43, 14:53
I know this isn't the forum to post replays so please forgive me and I will also post this on the replays forum later anyways, but like right now it's 3am and I need to sleep.
 

Ansou

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That actually helps a lot. I guess I was doing it too fast. I figured for other characters, that aren't Falcon or Roy, had a stricter timing so it would require you to go a lot faster. I actually didn't think about slowing it down. Thanks a lot!!
Just want to point out that Kirby can definitely do it faster than 160 BPM, although it's obviously harder. I've managed to do it in 200 BPM, but not tried it in a real match. One problem with doing it so fast is that you have to let go of the stick almost immediately after you dash which is inconsistent at least for me to do. You also kinda have to be careful not to perfect pivot instead of dashdance when you're doing it really fast.
 

Phan7om

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Just want to point out that Kirby can definitely do it faster than 160 BPM, although it's obviously harder. I've managed to do it in 200 BPM, but not tried it in a real match. One problem with doing it so fast is that you have to let go of the stick almost immediately after you dash which is inconsistent at least for me to do. You also kinda have to be careful not to perfect pivot instead of dashdance when you're doing it really fast.
YO 200 BPM? I need to test this.
 
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T Luthor

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So I'm guessing most of you know about the captain falcon inhale release footstool yes? Well I try this on a few characters and it worked on someone else, can't remember who, think it was Ganon. Well I think this works on certain sizes, and I wanted to know if anyone has any info about it, or could try it, to see who it Works on...
 

Ansou

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YO 200 BPM? I need to test this.
Ya I didn't really manage to maintain an extended dash dance because I haven't practiced it enough, but the foxtrotting worked well. You just have to reset the control stick to neutral earlier to make the dashing animation shorter or something. I'm guessing it makes the dash itself slightly shorter though, but that shouldn't matter too much right?
 

WootSnorlax

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Location
NorCal
So I'm guessing most of you know about the captain falcon inhale release footstool yes? Well I try this on a few characters and it worked on someone else, can't remember who, think it was Ganon. Well I think this works on certain sizes, and I wanted to know if anyone has any info about it, or could try it, to see who it Works on...
I'm pretty sure all the characters actually can footstool Kirby first.
 

Mega-Spider

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
955
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
MegaSonic3
3DS FC
4124-5940-2103
I found a solid Kirby match against a Sheik. I gotta remember to use my down tilt to leading into throw combos.
 
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