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Kirby's moveset is outdated

Dbombiallo

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Kirby moveset in 64 felt good to me because it was the first game. Then melee it was slightly improved and stayed the same ever since then. The problem is with Kirby's moveset is that he just uses random kicks for his most of his tilts and aerials. And I just wanted to get peoples opinions on this.
 

Soyaccino

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His side b is just so useless. If he had a proper projectile I’d be in love
 

Mamboo07

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I would have him get a tether which is the Whip ability, and his Final Smash being the Star Allies Sparkler.
 

Sebas22

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Considering how many abilities Kirby has across all the games, it's really surprising it's mostly kicks in Smash. They could easily have done something similar to Megaman, having all the moves being a different ability. They nailed it with the throws, being all part of Suplex. And the B moves are fine, though I wouldn't complain if they made Hammer Spin his AirNeutral, and gave him a proyectile for the B+Forward. Maybe Laser, or Plasma.
 
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And by that logic, we can assume the Mii Gunner beats Kirby.

Somebody discuss the Miis’ stats against the Kirbster!
 

UserKev

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Kirby is unlikely to match his Smash 64 peak. His side tilts are still reliable at least. I definitely agree that his hammer spin should be his air neutral. Other than that, Kirby's moveset in Smash is so accurate to his character, its difficult to make revamps. He's basically complete.
 

Dbombiallo

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Kirby is unlikely to match his Smash 64 peak. His side tilts are still reliable at least. I definitely agree that his hammer spin should be his air neutral. Other than that, Kirby's moveset in Smash is so accurate to his character, its difficult to make revamps. He's basically complete.
How is it accurate?
 
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I want his forward aerial to be his Beam ability :(
Up aerial should be throwing shurikens up based on the Ninja ability :(
Down Smash should be Kirby giving off a large shockwave in exchange for slightly more startup lag :( (Based on the Megaton Punch game)
 

UserKev

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How is it accurate?
Kirby's averageness in Smash is a nod to how powerful he actually is otherwise. Its constantly being suggested. Kirby has a wide display of specials, its plain complex to look at. I wouldn't abuse it at the risk of potentially ruining Kirby.
 
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Look at how creative characters like Captain Falcon and Wario are. In the former’s case, you can create a supposedly limited character into a wide variety of fun and memetic concepts. Same thing applies to Waluigi in SSF2. On Wario’s case, use the wide variety of microgames and generalize Wario’s behaviors.
 

Dbombiallo

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EXACTLY. Most suggestions people make will destroy the character and his playstyle. Then he’d actually be the worst in the game.
Like fixing inhale and stone? Or better/accurate moves than just a couple of kicks and a spin.
 

Wigglerman

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I honestly feel Kirby is fine but it could be more of a legacy thing for me. He hasn't changed too greatly from his original move set but still packs in enough nods to his series. Up Special, Down Special, Inhale, Forward Special, his suplex throw, so on. Inhale though is what pays the most homage since it's his entire schtick. Copy whomever he inhales to get a sweet new move. I'd honestly find it a bit jarring if he just shape changes for so many attacks like others have suggested so far. Sure, some games allow him to 'recall' an ability he once had even without needing a new enemy to copy from but turning Kirby into this psudo-shape shifter styled fighter feels off to me (As in every attack is some other ability he had just for homage sake).

Granted, Kirby's glory days from 64 are gone but he still remains pretty consistent and a fun character to play with, along with a lot of the original gang, something familiar. It isn't too often a series core character line up gets an overhaul even if it might be for the 'betterment' of a character. It's a consistency thing.
 

JoltSmash13

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Kirby moveset in 64 felt good to me because it was the first game. Then melee it was slightly improved and stayed the same ever since then. The problem is with Kirby's moveset is that he just uses random kicks for his most of his tilts and aerials. And I just wanted to get peoples opinions on this.
Yeah, and now Kirby sucks in competitive play. Easily outranged by any sword fighter, dizabstérbabsterbus approach options, and sucky frame data for most tilts. Trying to play this character online makes me wanna scream.
 

Dbombiallo

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I honestly feel Kirby is fine but it could be more of a legacy thing for me. He hasn't changed too greatly from his original move set but still packs in enough nods to his series. Up Special, Down Special, Inhale, Forward Special, his suplex throw, so on. Inhale though is what pays the most homage since it's his entire schtick. Copy whomever he inhales to get a sweet new move. I'd honestly find it a bit jarring if he just shape changes for so many attacks like others have suggested so far. Sure, some games allow him to 'recall' an ability he once had even without needing a new enemy to copy from but turning Kirby into this psudo-shape shifter styled fighter feels off to me (As in every attack is some other ability he had just for homage sake).

Granted, Kirby's glory days from 64 are gone but he still remains pretty consistent and a fun character to play with, along with a lot of the original gang, something familiar. It isn't too often a series core character line up gets an overhaul even if it might be for the 'betterment' of a character. It's a consistency thing.
I was talking his normals, smashes, and airs his specials and throws are fine. And recovering your ability has been a thing since adventure and what about megaman.
 

Dbombiallo

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The things about people basically turning all of his moves into things from his games. It would be unique and cool but he would be very slow as you could imagine.
Not all of his games are like adventure and dream land 3.
 

Wigglerman

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I was talking his normals, smashes, and airs his specials and throws are fine. And recovering your ability has been a thing since adventure and what about megaman.
Mega Man feels more natural. I know it sounds weird but for someone who didn't have a move set before, Megaman works the way he is.

I think Kirby's largest issue is he's a legacy character and they aren't likely to massively overhaul the legacy roster. They tend to get tweaks here and there or a new/replacement move but that's generally it.

I dunno. I suppose my bias is I like how he plays now. His play style has remained pretty consistent since Smash 64 and feels like it fits the character even if it isn't the most thematic they could muster, especially now-a-days. I feel Kirby won't change because legacy characters don't often get a huge make over as they are the ones to remain constant, provide familiarity throughout the various installments. While anecdotal, I know a friend of mine who loves Kirby in Smash and is her favorite character would DESPISE having his moveset overhauled because he's the one she plays every game because she knows he isn't going to change much and enjoys how he plays, even if he isn't 'good'.

An example for myself is the massive changes to G&W. It made him more 'thematic' but it made him AWFUL to play for me. I HATE all of his changes.


Yeah, and now Kirby sucks in competitive play. Easily outranged by any sword fighter, dizabstérbabsterbus approach options, and sucky frame data for most tilts. Trying to play this character online makes me wanna scream.
Kirby hasn't really been competitively good since 64 though. He's probably the best he's been since 64 but I think what holds Kirby back isn't his move set but his weight in general. Kirby has some great tools, decent combos, set ups and edge guarding. His frame data isn't the worst either. He just pops at such low percents and that's kinda the crux.

As a character I don't ever feel Kirby is 'bad'. He just never got the tools other 'top tiers' have (Namely reach and speed).
 
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Yeah, and now Kirby sucks in competitive play. Easily outranged by any sword fighter, dizabstérbabsterbus approach options, and sucky frame data for most tilts. Trying to play this character online makes me wanna scream.
If anybody has terrible frame data think of the fighters who trade speed for pure power (:bowser2::bowsermelee::ganondorf::4ganondorf::ultganondorf:). These people also get destroyed extremely hard by swordfighters and are even worse at approaching, to the point where they need to rely on a careless opponent to even try. Their attacks are among the slowest in those games. Everybody's frame data is actually decent in this game (yes even :ultkirby:). Everything (except raw power) Kirby has is actually better than Ganon's. And that's not even including edgeguarding.
 

UserKev

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Honestly, if I were to give Kirby a moveset revamp, I'd change his forward A to a Wrap Star crash or a buff multi hitting ballerina spin kick. I think he's also potentially missing a meteor type move, he lacks in star elemental attacks.
 

boysilver400

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I don’t see how claiming his moveset is outdated is going to help with increasing his viability and improving his meta. We need to focus on working with what he currently has and making that better. Let’s not nitpick the fact that he uses kicks for most of his normals and focus on the fact that he has arguably the worst set of specials in the game. Oh yeah, how about the fact that his f-throw still doesn’t ****ing work correctly on BF, Lylat or PS1, and let’s not forget that stone doesn’t work on shield correctly.

Easily outranged by any sword fighter, dizabstérbabsterbus approach options, and sucky frame data for most tilts.
His tilts actually have good frame data, with f-tilt being his slowest one at frame 5.

His aerials and specials are where he has ass frame data.
 

JoltSmash13

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I don’t see how claiming his moveset is outdated is going to help with increasing his viability and improving his meta. We need to focus on working with what he currently has and making that better. Let’s not nitpick the fact that he uses kicks for most of his normals and focus on the fact that he has arguably the worst set of specials in the game. Oh yeah, how about the fact that his f-throw still doesn’t ****ing work correctly on BF, Lylat or PS1, and let’s not forget that stone doesn’t work on shield correctly.



His tilts actually have good frame data, with f-tilt being his slowest one at frame 5.

His aerials and specials are where he has *** frame data.
Yeah, that’s right. But fair is okay. Bair is probably one of Kirby’s best out of shield options when possible. ALSO. Did you know that NAIR is a KILL MOVE? It’s kind of crazy, but yeah. A bit above 100% offstage when Kirby puffs out (First hit, when hit box activates). Most people don’t suspect it. I should probably just make a board discussing Kirby in competitive play. Could post a lot of useful info there.
Whatever. His specials do suck at frame data. The tilts are just kinda weak (damage wise, not knock back, used for combos). Also, frame five isn’t fast enough to counter the sword fighters with moves coming out like frame four, or $&@%#^% LUCINA who’s moves have more priority than a school bus. Her aerials cancel most other moves out without the Marth tipper disadvantage (I have something against Lucina IDK why)
 

JoltSmash13

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If anybody has terrible frame data think of the fighters who trade speed for pure power (:bowser2::bowsermelee::ganondorf::4ganondorf::ultganondorf:). These people also get destroyed extremely hard by swordfighters and are even worse at approaching, to the point where they need to rely on a careless opponent to even try. Their attacks are among the slowest in those games. Everybody's frame data is actually decent in this game (yes even :ultkirby:). Everything (except raw power) Kirby has is actually better than Ganon's. And that's not even including edgeguarding.
Well, with Kirb, racking up damage takes forever. Combos leave you with a huge risk since Kirby is so light and has sucky retreating options. Trust me. It’s easier to cheese a game with Bowser or Ganon than Kirby (At least in Ultimate. Not brawl.
 

JoltSmash13

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Mega Man feels more natural. I know it sounds weird but for someone who didn't have a move set before, Megaman works the way he is.

I think Kirby's largest issue is he's a legacy character and they aren't likely to massively overhaul the legacy roster. They tend to get tweaks here and there or a new/replacement move but that's generally it.

I dunno. I suppose my bias is I like how he plays now. His play style has remained pretty consistent since Smash 64 and feels like it fits the character even if it isn't the most thematic they could muster, especially now-a-days. I feel Kirby won't change because legacy characters don't often get a huge make over as they are the ones to remain constant, provide familiarity throughout the various installments. While anecdotal, I know a friend of mine who loves Kirby in Smash and is her favorite character would DESPISE having his moveset overhauled because he's the one she plays every game because she knows he isn't going to change much and enjoys how he plays, even if he isn't 'good'.

An example for myself is the massive changes to G&W. It made him more 'thematic' but it made him AWFUL to play for me. I HATE all of his changes.




Kirby hasn't really been competitively good since 64 though. He's probably the best he's been since 64 but I think what holds Kirby back isn't his move set but his weight in general. Kirby has some great tools, decent combos, set ups and edge guarding. His frame data isn't the worst either. He just pops at such low percents and that's kinda the crux.

As a character I don't ever feel Kirby is 'bad'. He just never got the tools other 'top tiers' have (Namely reach and speed).
Exactly. He needs something to keep up with them (and sword characters)
 
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Well, with Kirb, racking up damage takes forever. Combos leave you with a huge risk since Kirby is so light and has sucky retreating options. Trust me. It’s easier to cheese a game with Bowser or Ganon than Kirby (At least in Ultimate. Not brawl.
Then again, try asking :ultsheik::ultdarkpit::ultmetaknight::ultwiifittrainer: if you can rack damage faster than Kirby.
 

JoltSmash13

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Then again, try asking :ultsheik::ultdarkpit::ultmetaknight::ultwiifittrainer: if you can rack damage faster than Kirby.
Hahahaha true dat. At least they weigh more than him (even if Meta Knight is just a bit heavier). But they’ve got many more kill moves, such as meta’s up b, offstage specials for all of those characters (can also cheese with Pitoo’s down b windbox if skilled enough [or his side b. Man, I used to spam that move in sm4sh before becoming more competitive]). Offstage, Kirby only has dair (takes a lot of time and practice to know how dair strings work for each character), fair (gotta be careful, can’t stop once started) and rarely nair. Down b if opponent sucks, but up b is a last minute thing and takes a huge amount of skill, effort, and planning to properly spike offstage with that move. Really risky.
 

JoltSmash13

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Hahahaha true dat. At least they weigh more than him (even if Meta Knight is just a bit heavier). But they’ve got many more kill moves, such as meta’s up b, offstage specials for all of those characters (can also cheese with Pitoo’s down b windbox if skilled enough [or his side b. Man, I used to spam that move in sm4sh before becoming more competitive]). Offstage, Kirby only has dair (takes a lot of time and practice to know how dair strings work for each character), fair (gotta be careful, can’t stop once started) and rarely nair. Down b if opponent sucks, but up b is a last minute thing and takes a huge amount of skill, effort, and planning to properly spike offstage with that move. Really risky.
And wii fit has deep breathing, multiple spikes, and spammable projectiles.
Sheik is more popular competitively and probably has more fans to back her up. More guides, strats, and experience.
 

Dbombiallo

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I don’t see how claiming his moveset is outdated is going to help with increasing his viability and improving his meta. We need to focus on working with what he currently has and making that better. Let’s not nitpick the fact that he uses kicks for most of his normals and focus on the fact that he has arguably the worst set of specials in the game. Oh yeah, how about the fact that his f-throw still doesn’t ****ing work correctly on BF, Lylat or PS1, and let’s not forget that stone doesn’t work on shield correctly.



His tilts actually have good frame data, with f-tilt being his slowest one at frame 5.

His aerials and specials are where he has *** frame data.
I don't mean his moveset outdated per say I just wanted to replace his moves with canon ones that have movement, range, and coverage like stone uppercut, firespin, stone's heavy smash, falling gust, and parasol dive. If I wanted to just buff states I would of made a list of what I wanted. Kirby can be better with a simple balance patch ,hell a modder in can make him viable in melee https://youtu.be/hbR7L7PlcBE. And d tilt is not going to trip nobody with its range.
 
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JoltSmash13

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Ah my favorite type of people, the ones who obviously don’t know the Kirby mu. First off, Kirby’s tilts are very fast and are very useful to his character. Down tilt and be used for kill confirms, combos, shield pressure, and cheap gimps. Up tilt is a good combo tool until 60 on most characters. F tilt is amazing for jab locks and kill confirms at high percents.

For matchups, I don’t know where people get the idea that Kirby he’s absolutely destroyed by all swords but it’s mostly false. The only sword characters I have trouble against are Roy, chrom, and shulk (until I get the copy ability). Swords do outrage Kirby but either they’re slow so he can get easy punishes after blocking, or they’re small so hes never not in his comfort zone. And to top it off, most sword characters have bad, easily exploitable recoveries that kirby has no trouble abusing.

People that think they know everything about a character they obviously haven’t used or seen in action makes me want to scream.
Hey, bud.
I play Kirby (competitively). He’s one of my mains. Yes, many sword characters have exploitable recoveries. However, the hit boxes of the recovery often cover most of the area above them. If you screw up trying to exploit their recovery, you have the risk of being stage spiked.
“But JoltSmash, you can tech stage spikes.”
Not all of them (duh). Besides, teching online is a nightmare in laggy situations.
Look, I just moved to Utah. I don’t have anyone to play with. Online is the best thing I’ve got.
Also, more than one sword character have recoveries that spike. Spiking Kirby leaves him in a dizabstérbabsterbus position. Kirby is dizabstérbabsterbus at defending above himself in the air. His up air is slow, lots of end lag (not heavy type end lag, but still), and is limited in range. Sword characters don’t take damage with their sword. The swords are longer than Kirby’s up air reach (with exception of Joker and Roy/Chrom in very certain situations).

YOU obviously don’t play against anyone that’s actually decent or makes good decisions. Lucinas? The good ones decimate Kirby. Roy? Knockback is ridiculous. Chrom? Basically Roy with a bit less potential but overall stronger.
And how the $&@% does getting Roy or Chrom’s neutral b make it easy to beat them? It’s faster than inhale, that’s for sure, but opponents can cross up you and stop you from using it. If you miss, the end lag will give your opponent a big advantage.

Kirby’s tilts are probably his best moves on the ground, yes, but they’re not as good as you make them out to be. If you miss a forward tilt, the end lag can cause serious repercussions. Yes, the end lag isn’t slow, but it isn’t that fast either. In Smash Ultimate, every millisecond counts. (Don’t correct me and say every frame counts, there are only 60 frames per second, and the time in between frames counts for thinking and inputting).

MOST sword characters have quick moves. Not slow like you said. However, smash attack may have high end lag, especially in the case of Roy and Chrom. IKE has slow sword attacks.
Let me rephrase what you said. No, let me fix what you said. Many sword characters have moves that are either fast and aggressive with excessive end lag on smash attacks (Roy, Chrom, Hero, kind of Robin, Cloud, and anyone else I forgot [Joker???]) or slow and “cool as a cucumber” (flowing and combo-y) (I used to say that to myself when I played Marth in Sm4sh. IDK why but it helped me get into a good mindset. And sm4sh was a slow game) like Marth, Lucina, Shulk, and to an extreme, Ike.
None of these thinks work well for Kirby except for end lag on the slowest sword moves (smashes and Ike). Then you can punish. BUT, as I have said before, when you finish a combo, you are left vulnerable because Kirby has dizabstérbabsterbus retreating options, if you’re in the air, they might be able to launch you to the blast zone.



But of course, don’t listen to me. I OBVIOUSLY know nothing about Kirby, and I OBVIOUSLY haven’t used him or seen people play with him.

Don’t make assumptions, Samurai C&$%
 
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JoltSmash13

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I don't mean his moveset outdated per say I just wanted to replace his moves with canon ones that have movement, range, and coverage like stone uppercut, firespin, stone's heavy smash, falling gust, and parasol dive. If I wanted to just buff states I would of made a list of what I wanted. Kirby can be better with a simple balance patch ,hell a modder in can make him viable in melee https://youtu.be/hbR7L7PlcBE. And d tilt is not going to trip nobody with its range.
I use dtilt all the time to trip and start combos. The range is okay, but it could be better.
But I love the idea of replacing some of his moves with more canon ones. He’s already got a bunch though (all specials, all throws, jab, dash attack, kind of nair (SMASH ability twinkle star [then again, that’s from smash too])
But yeah. Maybe add more canon moves or replace some worse ones with new ones. IDK, but that might have to be for a new smash game (which might never happen with Daddy Sakurai again).
 
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And wii fit has deep breathing, multiple spikes, and spammable projectiles.
Sheik is more popular competitively and probably has more fans to back her up. More guides, strats, and experience.
Wii Fit's a weird case to me. She's super effective against characters with giant hurtboxes and/or slow movement) (:ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultsamus:) but she suffers terribly against characters that can duck under her projectiles and/or have great mobility to avoid it (:ultzss::ultpichu::ultkirby::ultmetaknight:). You can see why Wii Fit got crushed by (:4kirby::4metaknight:) and most characters in general. Then again at the same time characters with large hurtboxes and/or slow mobility fall. (:4dedede::4ganondorf:) Depending on who you play :ultwiifittrainer: can dictate play rather easily or she gets blown up. Her weird projectile placements give me mixed impressions on how she does.

It really depends where :ultsheik: appears. She hasn't appeared in the scene (save for locals) for quite a while now. Also still crouch asserts a managable matchup for the warpstar warrior.

That said, shouldn't we take this to another thread? I want Kirby's forward aerial to be the sword ability/star rod.
 

TennisBall

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I have a friend who had never played Smash before, and when I started having birthday parties with Smash, he could barely play, and over the years, he's become a menace with the puffball, and I've suffered more Down Air combos than a Smash 64 rookie. His tilts are great, and his smash attacks are weirdly powerful and decently fast. His Back-Air and Down-Air are suffocating at times, but Kirby's a low tier, and he's been one since Melee which is a shame.
It's not Kirby's moveset that's outdated, it's just Kirby. He has the worst tournament results of any character in Ultimate at this point, is outclassed by so many characters, and that airspeed breaks my heart.
If I were to fix Kirby I would do three things.
1.Fix the airspeed, I know in the games he's slow in the air, but Mewtwo weights like 277kg in Pokemon, and Bowser is sometimes the size of the planet.
2.Make Inhale be fast like in the games. In Star Allies at least, it's super fast but also reactable, it could be a good punish.
3.Make his throws better. Make F-Throw work on all stages, and make Up-Throw an actual killthrow instead of whatever the heck it's supposed to be.
Bonus.Make Back Throw a sucide throw. It'd be really funny.
 

JoltSmash13

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Wii Fit's a weird case to me. She's super effective against characters with giant hurtboxes and/or slow movement) (:ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultsamus:) but she suffers terribly against characters that can duck under her projectiles and/or have great mobility to avoid it (:ultzss::ultpichu::ultkirby::ultmetaknight:). You can see why Wii Fit got crushed by (:4kirby::4metaknight:) and most characters in general. Then again at the same time characters with large hurtboxes and/or slow mobility fall. (:4dedede::4ganondorf:) Depending on who you play :ultwiifittrainer: can dictate play rather easily or she gets blown up. Her weird projectile placements give me mixed impressions on how she does.

It really depends where :ultsheik: appears. She hasn't appeared in the scene (save for locals) for quite a while now. Also still crouch asserts a managable matchup for the warpstar warrior.

That said, shouldn't we take this to another thread? I want Kirby's forward aerial to be the sword ability/star rod.
Yeah. But Kirby can’t duck under fully charged SALUTE THE SUN or a skilled players’ small meaty balls.
The forward air with star rod or sword sounds great! Except fair is one of his main combo moves now. Might mess things up...
Yeah. This thread is turning into Kirby’s competitive viability. I might have started that...
 
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