Guide Kirby's Frame Data [Deleted]

[KuroganeHammer]

Link to Kirby's Complete Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Kirby​

 

[Ansou]

Yay, thank you! Last but not least! ^.^

By the way, are there any kind of plans to add custom specials to this as well?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Not unless customs become meta.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

3 frame 10 aerials and a frame 18 d-air... Kirbys frame data is worse than I thought.

 

[TimG57867]

Nice job on correcting the run speed!

3 frame 10 aerials and a frame 18 d-air... Kirbys frame data is worse than I thought.

Right from the moment I began lurking this boards, I was always boggled when peopled here said that Kirby has "great" frame data, and this confirmed my suspicions. I mean seriously. Frame 10 N-Air? Frame 14 Up Smash? Frame 18 D-Air. Frame TWENTY THREE FINAL CUTTER !?!?! For such a combo-heavy character, Kirby's frame data is pretty subpar. Out of all the combo heavy characters of his range class, I think only has worse frame data, and even then, he has better range and air speed to compensate. Given his size and mobility, there's NO reason the frame data on all of Kirby's moves should be this mediocre. I am telling you if his all round frame data fell more in line with (who also has bad mobility I might add) he'd be SOOO much better (that along with a strong Up Throw and better ranged Final Cutter).

Enough with the little buffs Nintendo. It's time Kirby got the treatment.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

t!MmY or MikeKirby what do you think about his Frame data? So you think it's ok or are some areas lacking in speed?

 

[Bribery]

Good lord I had no idea Hammer was THAT slow. Uncharged is nearly double the startup of Up Smash yet still weaker in terms of KO power.

Kirby's frame data overall is decent. Better than most, but for a CQC character, it's pretty lackluster. Other CQC characters like the Mario bros, Fox, Sheik, or Pikachu have superior frame data, mobility, and better mid-range game as well.

 

[MikeKirby]

Kirby's frame data is nearly 90% exactly like it was in Brawl like I thought it was. It's nothing surprising. I knew what I was practically working with. Nerfed 13 frame F-smash and KBG of U-throw make me cry, though...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea that is sad, plus Fsmash has reduced base knock back as well :/
But our Up and Dsmash are stronger :D
And Usmash has invincibility ^_^
Wish Dsmash had its semi spike hitbox, but oh well.
They have less end lag too(compared to brawl they all do right?)
So I like our smashes, they are cool, and it still shocks me how strong they are compared to most characters and for Kirbys light weight too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Kirby's frame data is nearly 90% exactly like it was in Brawl like I thought it was. It's nothing surprising. I knew what I was practically working with. Nerfed 13 frame F-smash and KBG of U-throw make me cry, though...

This is mainly to account for rage. Kirby's smash attacks are rage monsters. Too bad Kirby is too light to make use of it.

Glancing over the data itself, Kirby's frame data is pretty good. Lots of low endlag moves, but I guess it's like that to make up for the lack of range the character has.

 

[KirbySquad101]

U-Smash has the same endlag as Mario's.

What is life ;_;

 

[Asdioh]

I was gonna say that they're different in multiple ways, but since you made me look... Mario's FAF (first actable frame) is 40, while Kirby's is 48. So he has an 8 frame advantage there. If you subtract the last active frame of the hitbox (19 for Kirby, 12 for Mario) from their FAFs, Mario actually has a 1 frame advantage, so if that's what you meant by same endlag, you were off by one frame, Mario's is actually one frame safer!
But wait, there's more: when considering frame safety on shield, you need to take into account what frame the move hits their shield, what the FAF is, and how much damage the move does, since more damage generally = more shieldstun/pushback. There's also "hitlag modifier" but I don't know much about that. Mario's Upsmash hits frames 9-12, so it's active for 4 frames, and Kirby's hits 14-19, so it's active for 6 frames. If you're hitting someone's shield with your Upsmash, you're most likely hitting with the first possible frame, so 9 for Mario, 14 for Kirby. 40-9=31 for Mario, 48-14=34 for Kirby. So that's 3 frames more shield advantage. Plus, Mario's Upsmash does .68% more damage, apparently, so that adds even more to its safety on shield. Oh, and to add video games to the cake, Mario's Upsmash does not have a sweet/sourspot, so if he hits you with it, it'll be consistently strong. Kirby's strong hit of Upsmash is only active for one frame, and then it gets a weaker hit for 2 frames, and then an even weaker hit for the remaining 3 frames.

But hey, Mario's Upsmash is absurdly good, and everybody already knows that. At least Kirby has invincibility on the Upsmash just like Mario does, and it's technically stronger at KOing when sweetspotted. It has a slightly different knockback angle though, so I'm not sure how that affects it. There's also the difference in range/hitbox between the smashes, though I'm not sure which is better than which in that regard.


On the bright side! All 3 of our tilts are better than his, in terms of startup, FAF, probably hitbox size, and general goodness.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

U-Smash has the same endlag as Mario's.

What is life ;_;

You could be Zelda. Hers has an FAF of 64 and probably has less range.

 

[Poupoko]

Surely you guys aren't that surprised by this. A lot of Kirby's frame data, or startup at least, was already known from the 1.0.4 mines (with many moves being similar to Brawl) and not much has changed since. His tilts are up there with the best, his aerials and smashes are average, but super punishable. And then there's the specials...

Anyway, thanks for this! The frame data on specials and FAF data in general are going to be really helpful!

 

[KirbySquad101]

I was gonna say that they're different in multiple ways, but since you made me look... Mario's FAF (first actable frame) is 40, while Kirby's is 48. So he has an 8 frame advantage there. If you subtract the last active frame of the hitbox (19 for Kirby, 12 for Mario) from their FAFs, Mario actually has a 1 frame advantage, so if that's what you meant by same endlag, you were off by one frame, Mario's is actually one frame safer!
But wait, there's more: when considering frame safety on shield, you need to take into account what frame the move hits their shield, what the FAF is, and how much damage the move does, since more damage generally = more shieldstun/pushback. There's also "hitlag modifier" but I don't know much about that. Mario's Upsmash hits frames 9-12, so it's active for 4 frames, and Kirby's hits 14-19, so it's active for 6 frames. If you're hitting someone's shield with your Upsmash, you're most likely hitting with the first possible frame, so 9 for Mario, 14 for Kirby. 40-9=31 for Mario, 48-14=34 for Kirby. So that's 3 frames more shield advantage. Plus, Mario's Upsmash does .68% more damage, apparently, so that adds even more to its safety on shield. Oh, and to add video games to the cake, Mario's Upsmash does not have a sweet/sourspot, so if he hits you with it, it'll be consistently strong. Kirby's strong hit of Upsmash is only active for one frame, and then it gets a weaker hit for 2 frames, and then an even weaker hit for the remaining 3 frames.

But hey, Mario's Upsmash is absurdly good, and everybody already knows that. At least Kirby has invincibility on the Upsmash just like Mario does, and it's technically stronger at KOing when sweetspotted. It has a slightly different knockback angle though, so I'm not sure how that affects it. There's also the difference in range/hitbox between the smashes, though I'm not sure which is better than which in that regard.


On the bright side! All 3 of our tilts are better than his, in terms of startup, FAF, probably hitbox size, and general goodness.

You were pretty much spot on with everything, but does Mario's u-smash really do 15.68% damage? I just checked, and Doc's u-smash has the same exact value on KuroganeHammer, and all of Doc's attacks do decimal damage, coincidentally. I remember practicing with Mario on training mode and his u-smash does 14% I believe actually.

But yeah, That really still doesn't change the fact that Mario's is safer on shield. XD

Kirby's u-smash - I believe - is probably longer ranged than Mario's, but at the tip is where the sourspot is, anyway. Kirby's u-smash should technically be stronger than everyone else's flip kicks, but it sends at a more horizontal angle, making it easier to DI.

Though, yes, I do remember Kirby still having amazeballs tilts (I think maybe even f-tilt might be longer ranged than Mario's, but I'm probably lying.) XD

You could be Zelda. Hers has an FAF of 64 and probably has less range.

I was thinking more like Jiggs, but there's also Zelda I guess.

 

[Fanttum]

Finally! Been waiting for these, haha.

Nothing really surprising here, but a quick question.
When an attack has an angle of 366 is something like the Sakurai angle going on there or is it just an angle of 6? Examples of this are on Fair (Hit 2) and Dair (Hits 1-5).
Might be a better question for the mechanics thread but would love to know if anyone can give me a quick answer.

Thanks!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Finally! Been waiting for these, haha.

Nothing really surprising here, but a quick question.
When an attack has an angle of 366 is something like the Sakurai angle going on there or is it just an angle of 6? Examples of this are on Fair (Hit 2) and Dair (Hits 1-5).
Might be a better question for the mechanics thread but would love to know if anyone can give me a quick answer.

Thanks!

It's called the autolink angle. Basically it knocks people in the direction Kirby is moving.

 

[t!MmY]

...what do you think about his Frame data? So you think it's ok or are some areas lacking in speed?

Kirby's frame data is all relative: it could be seen as okay by itself 'in a vaccuum', but when you compare it to the 'good' characters (the best in the game) it is unfortunately lacking. All of Kirby's moves are lacking in more than just speed and frame data - there are a lot more to each move than just speed and FAF's, and Kirby is lacking in those areas as well ... at least to be considered 'Top Tier'.

I think I will go into further detail about this in a separate post so as to not derail this topic too far.

 

[TimG57867]

You know, many character boards have KuroganeHammer's frame data threads stickied at the top. Perhaps we should do the same?

 

[Wintermelon43]

You know, many character boards have KuroganeHammer's frame data threads stickied at the top. Perhaps we should do the same?

There's no moderators on this forum

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There are super moderators tho. If you want something stuck, try reporting the main post requesting a sticky.

 

[TimG57867]

There are super moderators tho. If you want something stuck, try reporting the main post requesting a sticky.

Ok. How would I contact them?

Edit: Thank you! Now we're no longer behind the stickied thread curve!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This guide has been removed and is no longer available.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This guide has been removed and is no longer available.