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kirby's design

chaosscizzors

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
211
Location
Michigan
i just want to share some thoughts i've had about this topic since kirby was first released. i'm not advocating any sort of change, as always. i'd like to get your thoughts on this subject and i welcome anybody to call me out on any nonsense i mistakenly post in ignorance. i've never played melee kirby, plain and simple.

this is something that has been bothering me for a long time now. out of all the characters in PM, kirby is the only one that i don't like, and i'd like to explain why that is and why i believe the pmbr has betrayed kirby's archetype. i understand that kirby was constructed from melee's iteration of the character, but hear me out... PM is, if i'm not mistaken, supposed to take elements from all the smash games, so i find it a shame to see brawl and 64 being overlooked in this iteration.

the smash 64 and brawl kirby has a fairly specific archetype. kirby was more of a defensive character that utilized moves such as utilt to zone and wall opponents and then capitalize when the opponent is offstage with an effective gimp. the gimping potential is there and i have no complaints about that specific facet of his archetype. smash 64's iteration had a decidedly overbearing utilt, and i by no means think that such a move deserves to be in PM. let me go into more detail...

utilt:
this move in particular is my main complaint. utilt in smash 64 and even brawl was a very disjointed anti-air type move that was used to stuff approaches. in PM i was eager to use utilt in conjunction with wavedashing to keep my opponent from approaching me, similar to how a marth might abuse fair. to my chagrin i found that utilt in PM is not disjointed and it trades with pretty much everything, making it useless as a defensive and spacing tool.

uair:
this is one of those moves that i like and hate at the same time. i love the sourspot hitbox that send opponents at an awkward angle, which leads to some great gimping potential. what bothers me is that i can't use uair as a combo tool/approach option ala brawl. one of my favorite combos in brawl was fthrow > uair > pivot utilt > bair. uair in brawl was a magnificent spacing tool and combo starter and i'm disappointed to see to gone. if uair's sourspot hitbox was slightly extended so i could use it as an approach via shff'l this would be a null issue.

forward final cutter:
i don't hate this move. what bothers me is its recovery utility. i think this move would be better if it lead to lagless fall special. this would allow low ground combos or even creative platform combos but prevent players from abusing this move to recover with kirby's already adequate recovery. it's extremely easy to recover if you use the forward version of final cutter immediately after being launched, and then you can comfortably return to the stage with your 5 (!) midair jumps, areals and stone attack which is now much faster. giving this move lagless fall special would allow for quick follow ups but prevent him from having the very powerful recovery that he currently has.

inhale:
this move is a bit awkward to judge. on one hand i feel like players haven't adapted to it properly yet, and on the other hand i feel like it's just a bit too strong. inhale often functions similarly to a shine spike but it has a fairly good range. an easy solution for this is to alter the mechanics of its momentum altering properties. an easy solution imo is to give the move the stall properties it had previously, that is to halt momentum on execution, but also to retain it's current momentum acceleration properties. so basically, halt momentum on execution, but allow the player to move freely after execution, during the inhale animation itself. i'm not too invested in changing this move however. it's not "broken", but i think it might require some minor tweaking.

dash attack:
is awesome. actually i think it's great and this move kinda obsoletes the forward cutter as an approach. does kirby need approach attacks? personally i liked him better as a zoning character and i don't really feel like he needs either of these moves if he had his brawl utilt and uair tools.
 

Jethroo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
249
Location
Alabama
First, I'm at my best with kirby when I start playing a hit and run strategy. I use aerials to play defensively/space and then cutter dash and dash attack (sometimes sh inhale) to quickly approach and get what I can then rest to neutral. Also, have you ever played a projectile spammer like mario in PM... you can't approach like you normal would in these situations and approaching from the ground is almost impossible. Also, I believe a standing still Kirby is a dead Kirby.

First dash attack does not make cutterdash obsoletes. Your dash attack has to work on the ground which can lead to bait/punishes with proper spacing or just stopped with projectiles. Cutterdash, however, can be used with shorthop or full jump and then immediately attacked out of with aerials allowing for you to jump over projectiles and attack twice and protect yourself will you escape or attack again. Not saying dash attack is bad, it is far from bad since it can lead to combos, extend combos, and even lead to a killing blow set up.

Next, kirby's recovery wasn't as great as you think it was before cutterdash was added. Kirby is a slow moving target in the air even with all his jumps was very vulnerable to someone smart enough to go get him. Final cutter was very easy to stop because of location of the hitbox (try recovering against squirtles Dsmash with Final Cutter). Being hit out of this would also lead to you losing all your jumps. Most people just thought they couldn't stop kirby's recovery for some reason, so they didn't try. Cutterdash allows kirby to be fast in air for a short distance. It still has its weakness, but it helps kirby.

Uair can combo, but only at low %s.... personally I like it though. You can still wall of pain people with Fair and Bair though.

I'm personally fine with Utilt. It is more of a combo/combo extender.

The difference between shine spike and inhale is that after inhale the enemy gets their jumps back. Kirby does as well. I think people panic to much after the inhale that they don't realize this and just spam UpB.
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
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Uair, Dthrow, and Uthrow, and possibly Fthrow might be the only moves that need tweaking imo.

But to the OP, trust me, if Uair had Brawl's and combo potential, that would make Kirby broken. He could literally 0 to almost death all fastfallers. That move already has insane combo potential, its rediculous. It auto cancels if you SHFF it, and it kills, im surprised people arent spamming this move lol. It needs its Melee knockback angle tho. Dthrow can CG like everyone that not a FFer, some well into the 200s. That needs to be changed imo. Maybe make it so that you can only CG floaties to like 65 or so, and then just make Uthrow a Kill throw on floaties like around 100... but still let Dthrow techchase FFers. If Fthrow can combo into the Gonzo combo afterwards at low %s it would be good, but at mid-high %s its already godlike. They could also give DA more ending lag, not much but more. Ending lag would be similar to Peach's DA.

The difference between shine spike and inhale is that after inhale the enemy gets their jumps back. Kirby does as well. I think people panic to much after the inhale that they don't realize this and just spam UpB.
Kirby actually doesnt get his jumps back, unlike Melee where you could use all 5 jumps and inhale > release and get them all back. Dont know if thats what you meant but yeah... people do panic when they get released offstage, especially if you use it after they used their 2nd jump sometimes they just dont even bother.


But yeah in general, Kirby's inhale is just good, no one knows how to deal with it yet. The best use for it is onstage believe it or not, not just Kirbyciding like people think. Use it like Warios Bite or D3s. Watch Reflex or Ripple to see how they use that move, thats a lot like how Inhale can be used, but better, no Kirbycides. The only reason they fall so far downwards is because of Melee's physics. Falco is literally ****ed when he gets released lol. Inhale is a pretty balanced move, they took the OP stuff it had in Melee and Brawl out.
 
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chaosscizzors

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
211
Location
Michigan
Also, have you ever played a projectile spammer like mario in PM... you can't approach like you normal would in these situations and approaching from the ground is almost impossible. Also, I believe a standing still Kirby is a dead Kirby.
in 64 and brawl this isn't that hard to deal with. utilt's disjoint clanks projectiles, you can duck > wd under lasers and other horizontal projectile and you can copy their project and start a hadouken war.

Next, kirby's recovery wasn't as great as you think it was before cutterdash was added.
i said adequate, not good. not everybody needs an amazing recovery. most of the time you don't want to sweetspot the ledge with final cutter anyway.

The difference between shine spike and inhale is that after inhale the enemy gets their jumps back. Kirby does as well. I think people panic to much after the inhale that they don't realize this and just spam UpB.
i was just referencing the semi-spike it gives you. you're right but against characters with a poor recovery they can't do a whole lot after breaking out, if anything. kirby will always be above the opponent after they break and it's just a matter of ledge hogging or nudging them out of range with stuff like dair, nair, footstool, what have you.

But to the OP, trust me, if Uair had Brawl's and combo potential, that would make Kirby broken.
i'm not necessarily saying it needs combo potential. it was a nice wall when combined with utilt and bair. it's got a fair amount of start up too. it's not too difficult to hit kirby during the start up.
 
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