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Kirby Matchup Export

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Character: Kirby
Current BBR MU Rating: -2
What to watch out for:
-Down air spiking off stage, as well as swallowcide.
-Don't get grabbed at low percents, or else get caught in Kirby's combo string.
Stages
-Strike: Lylat, Battlefield
-Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon
-Counterpicks: Final Destination, Halberd, maybe Brinstar.
Lucas Boards Matchup Rating: -1

[COLLAPSE="Matchup Summaries"]
Okay i guess im going first. before i start id like to point out the kirby boards has less threads than us...i thought it was funny.

1)Do not get grabbed at low percentag.
~ can Fthrow to up tilt from 0-16%
~if you DI the wrong way U-tilt, Reversed U-tilt, F-tilt, Grab, F-air, or Inhale are inevitable
~~~~Smash DI out of this if you dont bstick. if you bstick QSDI. It should be possible

2)If kirby off stage DO NOT CHASE HIM unless you are completly confident in yourself.
~Kiby has a max of 5 jumps. in case you didnt know thats 4 more than you.... just saying.
~down air will spike.
~ back air was already dangerous enough
~Finall Cutter spikes.
~Inhale......
~~~~Look kirby can swallow you up, then spit you out to where its almost impossible to recover. and then he'll just float his puffy butt back on stage if he feels like it
~~~~ inhale is obviously a kamikaze move....at this note dont stand to close to the edge of any stage

3) kirbys close range is kinda ridiculous.
~if you can try to play this game mid range if you feel like being aggressive.
~ we can out camp kirby. Final Cutter isnt a problem, just magnet that crap.
~Bair is a 12% move frest, 9% stale. and it 13 frame move. hitting on frames 6-8
~Fsmash is the killer. That Toe gives 15% fresh 13% stale. hits on frames 12-15. the move is 50 frames all together. So if they miss, punish well.
*note: if the kirby likes to think he's smart by doing final cutter close range, if you have a good read you can magnet cancel to fair, uair, and down air.




Pros:

Can Camp,
Better midrange game.
Kirby Light so he dies faster
kirby has slow kill attacks


Cons:
Of Stage we get beat
Close range we lose
Fthrow Combo he has
Can Float....always a ***** to deal with
kirbycide



Again keep the game long and midrange
also i guess we're doing the stage pick next?
I wouldn't be all that scared of Kirby off-stage, just as long as you're not blindly rushing at him. If he's turned with his back facing you, then you probably won't win, but if he's facing forward you can probably pressure him decently. I don't think we lose up close either tbh... jab/f-tilt all day.

Kirby is all about exploiting his difficulties approaching, and I say this for every matchup against Kirby. If you manage to get the lead, be patient and make him come to you, and punish him when he does. If you lose the lead... that's where that -2 rating comes from.
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
---Kirby's Final Cutter - 13 %
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 63

General MU:
-Kirby wins this MU with, Gimps. Play careful offstage.
-At low percents, a grab will end up giving you around 40-60%. So avoid getting grabbed.
---U-tilt and U-air can also start these strings
-At high percent avoid his F-smash, B-air, D-air, Stone and Air Hammer mostly.
-Never charge a U-smash or D-smash, or you're asking to be stoned
-Watch out for a footstool if you escape a Kirbycide. Use the same swallow rules you would against Kind DDD
-Kirby has trouble approaching us, his only approach is B-air, which a well spaced f-air will beat
-PK Fire is essential to this MU because Kirby is too good close range
-Kirby has no offstage projectiles, chase him w/ PKT and PK Freeze
-Do not let Kirby take you to the air, only try to play ground game against him

Quote:
Originally Posted by ★Viper
☆ I nearly always face Lucas, for some reason a lot of people around me loves using him, lol. Anyways it's an upchill battle to me, with Lucas's set up's to his F-Smash and sometimes his unexpected D-Smash. Sadly Lucas can be gimped hard with Kirby, and might die by his D-Air or B-Air if not careful when coming back, sometimes Stone when he uses his PK Thunder, (or if you face someone that knows how to use Stone really well, a rarity). Watch out for Kirby's strings, most of his strings start up's is when he throws you, sometimes it starts with U-Tilt, or U-Air, as you know, strings can lead to some awful after damage for example 0%-40%+ if your not careful. Most of Kirby's killing blows would be F-Smash, B-Air, D-Air, (when conditions are right), Down-B, (when conditions are right), and Air Hammer. ☆
Punishment:
B-air: Well spaced F-air, possibly Sheild-Grab
D-air: OoS Jab or F-tilt
F-smash: OoS F-smash (This goes with all other Smashes)
Whiffed Grab: F-tilt or Jab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galeon
You dont have to ps Kirby's fsmash to fsmash him back. It's free and easy. Random fsmashes get him killed in the matchup.
Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat/PS1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
CP: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield

Quote:
Originally Posted by ★Viper
☆ Lucas does better on Delfino Plaza than Kirby does. =P ☆

☆ Lucas best counter picks would be Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Battlefield. Do not pick the stages you said and to add Frigate Orpheon. ☆

☆ Inhale to the water current FTW!!! ☆
-----------
Here is the previous Kirby discussion and we ended up giving it a 45:55 and in the new BBR standarad MU rating system, that would be a -1 MU. I'll try and input more when I'm not tired but I thought of at least getting this in here.
This MU is really boringly dumb. Whenever FAE and I play it, I just sit by the edge and wait for him to approach so that I can try and Kirbicide him. If he wanted to, he could juss wait for me to approach, but then the game would time out :/

And everyone should know, Lucas can't be gimped unless he's coming out of Kirby's mouth from a kirbicide, or you're out there with him for whatever reason. If you have to jump off to gimp him, kiss that oppurtunity goodbye.

Zap jumping and Lucas' possible aerial mobility isn't even an issue since Kirby should just stand there and wait for him to approach. All that zooming around doesn't do much if Kirby doesn't move.

Approach us? Roll behind>DTilt or go to the ledge as Kirby.

Stages? You want PS1 maybe since you can run all day and the lip is stupid. Or Lylat, or anywhere that recovering is more of a hassle for Lucas than it already is. Ban BF?

And what I say is in no means a summary of this MU or it's finer points but merely anecdotal situational tips.


Overview
This match-up revolves around both players trying to gain positional advantage. Kirby is a close-range fighter while Lucas has the upper-hand when fighting at a distance. Kirby also has a very strong advantage when he gets Lucas off-stage.

Long Range
Kirby is incapable of fighting effectively at long range whereas Lucas has three possible projectiles to send out at enemies from different ranges. PK Fire is the most commonly used since it zones horizontallly forcing the opponent to defend or to take to the air. PK Thunder and PK Freeze are less frequently used since they carry a greater risk of getting punished due to their long start-up, duration, and ending lag.

At this range, and seen in the beginning of the battle, Lucas will usually start off with a PK Fire since it's safe and will create pressure on Kirby from a distance, degrade his Shield, or possibly induce damage. If Kirby responds to the pressure in the form of an approach it will usually be to walk up and Shield (Perfect Shield) the PK Fire, or to jump over it.

Perfect Shielding is the most efficient way of neutralizing the PK Fire and allows for Kirby to move in close enough where he can punish should Lucas launch another Perfect Shielded PK Fire. It's about at this distancing that Lucas is unable to continue the PK Fire for pressure unless he is able to retreat while doing so which in turn forces him closer to the edge of the stage.

PK Thunder and PK Freeze are typically more easily dealt with since they carry more risk, however they have less of a linear use than PK Fire which allows Lucas to weave in some creative pressure with these attacks. PK Thunder can be arched around to keep Kirby sitting in his Shield, degrading it's use, rather than allowing for an easier chance at Perfect Shielding the attack. It can also be veered behind Lucas allowing for the possibility of a PKT2 attack straight ahead, while simultaneously allowing for the possibility of canceling it by grounding the Thunder into the stage. PK Freeze can be charged and directed as it builds up toward Kirby which also makes it unlikely to be Perfect Shielded and thus draining the Shield more than a PK Fire would. Both these attacks can also deal significant damage should they hit, and they also cover more surface area than PK Fire does which makes them more likely to keep Kirby on the ground with a Shield up.

One more note at this range: Lucas' zoning pressure isn't especially significant at extreme ranges. At ranges beyond PK Fire's reach, the pressure is diminished greatly. While not entirely useless, PK Thunder and PK Freeze are easily telegraphed making them more easily defended, but still much more useful than anything Kirby has at this range.

Mid-Range
This is the range at which the pressure turns from being all on Kirby to where Kirby starts becoming a threat to Lucas. At this range Lucas' projectiles are not safe since they can be defended against and then followed with a punishing attack. Because of this Lucas will have to choose to retreat, approach, or play defensive.

Retreating is a viable option since it puts Lucas back into a superior position but only for as long as Lucas has room behind him to move. On smaller stages this won't usually be an option, but on a stage like Final Destination Lucas will have much more room to maneuver. The drawback to retreating is that it puts Lucas closer to the edge of the stage where his options are more restricted and where it is more likely to be pushed off-stage.

Going on the offensive at this point is a possibility but only if you're confident in being able to handle what Kirby has in return. Remember that moving in for an attack puts you into close range where Kirby can get his hits in too. Also, Lucas' approach options are none too difficult for Kirby to handle. See 'Close Range' for more details.

Playing defensive works well for Lucas at this point. Kirby is either going to be patient and wait for an approach that he can counter or move in close. Keep in mind that most of Kirby's approaches will be with a Shield, especially considering Lucas' slow Grab. Pivot Grabs work well against this Shield Baiting since Kirby is hoping to provoke an attack that he can Shield-Grab. If Lucas keeps his distance just outside Kirby's Grab range he should be able to defeat any Shield baiting.

Since this is such a tense point in the match-up it will likely shift into Close Range or be reset back to Long Range depending on what actions both players take. This is where spacing and reading the opponent is of great importance; it will allow for Kirby to punish or approach and it will allow Lucas to reposition himself or to punish Kirby.


Close Range
Both Lucas and Kirby have some surprisingly quick moves to use when in close range. Lucas' Tilts and Standard Attack (Jab Combo) are all very useful at this range as well as his N-air and F-air. Kirby has all the options that Lucas has at his disposal plus his quick Grab which allows for a very useful mix-up should Lucas choose to put up his Shield. Kirby will tend to go for Grab more than any other option especially if Lucas is at low percents so he can get his Infamous Kirby Combo (F-throw -> U-air). Kirby's Tilt and Aerial of choice will usually be U-tilt and B-air since they are quick and effective, though Jab and D-tilt have their uses (Jab is Kirby's quickest attack and D-tilt can allow for Trip combos).

Strategically speaking Lucas will be looking to get Kirby away from him. N-air out of shield works well for Lucas' goals as well as a quick Jab Combo or some D-tilts. All of these options are quick and have different uses. For instance N-air out of shield can be used to defend against Kirby's tilts and then counter attack while moving to a better stage position. Jab is Lucas' fastest standing attack and can catch Kirby before he Jumps or attacks - the first hit of the Jab can also be used to put pressure on a Kirby who is holding a Shield and expecting a slower attack with more HitLag. D-tilts can be strung together to catch a Kirby who is Spot Dodging or to put some pressure on a Shield that's being held - and don't forget the D-tilt is great for forcing a Trip.

Kirby's tactics will be similar but he's looking to either build damage on Lucas or get him off the stage. Kirby's best leads in close combat include his Grab, U-tilt, and D-tilt. His Grab will be used most often since it's quick and effective and is an easy way to punish out-of-shield. In fact, Kirby will often put up a Shield to counter any attacks Lucas throws his way.

If Kirby gets a grab while Lucas is at low percents (about 20% and less) he's guaranteed a combo [F-throw (8%) -> U-air (10%)] with a minimum of 18% damage (minus any stale moves). Kirby can follow this attack up with a variety of attacks depending on the situation such as with U-tilt, F-tilt, F-smash, or another Grab. All of these follow-ups can be avoided if the U-air is S-DI'd away/up from Kirby (or if Lucas is already slightly damaged the U-air will knock him away far enough that follow-ups cannot be combo'd into).

At mid to high percents (30% to 50%) Kirby might still be going for Grabs because it's still a good tactical option to build damage and counter attacks out-of-shield, but his main goal will be to get Lucas off-stage. His F-tilt has enough oomph to push Lucas off-stage if close enough to the edge, but Kirby's real prize-hitter is his B-air at this point.

Kirby's B-air is a 9% hit when sour-spotted which is enough to send Lucas off-stage, but when sweet-spotted it's a 12% hit which can send Lucas flying. Because of this Kirby will rely on his B-air very often; for spacing, for damage, out-of-shield, etc. It can be used at the closest of Close Range all the way into Mid-Range due to it's great horizontal reach combined with its aerial mobility.

Off-Stage Game
Obviously Lucas will delight in getting Kirby off-stage since everyone benefits from getting their opponent off-stage while keeping firm footing and tactical positioning. However, it's much more advantageous for Kirby to get Lucas off-stage.

While Kirby is off-stage, Lucas might be able to send some PK stuff out after the puffball while floats back to the stage, Lucas might even want to take a risk and do some off-stage fighting with B-air spikes, D-air spikes, or other aerial KO possibilities. This is all fine depending on how well Lucas can pull it off, but the truth of the matter is that Kirby is most likely going to get back to the ledge and that Lucas' best KO options will come from solid KO's.

When Kirby has Lucas off-stage these get a bit more one-sided. Lucas only has one mid-air jump whereas Kirby has five. Because of this, Kirby will be looking to snipe that jump from Lucas - most likely with B-air (due to it's 6-frame hit making it Kirby's fastest aerial attack). If the B-air hits solidly enough it can outright KO when used off-stage, and even if it's stale and/or sour-spots it will still eat Lucas' jump and force him to use riskier forms of recovery.

Lucas' recovery isn't as terribad as Ness' since Kirby can't just fall into the PK Tunder and nullify it as can be done with Ness. The PK Thunder however does have a significant amount of start-up allowing Kirby (who is slow in the air) to move out for the possibility of hitting Lucas before the PKT2 takes effect.

Kirby's D-air has a ton of start-up (hits on frame 18) but it can still be used effectively if Lucas is recovering from below since the D-air can clash with the PKT and continue downward to spike Lucas. Likewise F-air and B-air can be used to destroy the PKT even if they don't ever hit Lucas himself. Kirby's U-air and N-air are much less impressive off-stage when trying to gimp or go for KO's and thus will not be seen much in this instance.

Since Kirby's aerial mobility is slow, it's likely that Lucas will be able to recover before getting gimped by Kirby. The best place to aim is for the ledge unless Kirby is going for a Edgehog against you. Landing on the stage with PKT2 lag can be pretty bad since it sets Lucas up for a strong hit such as Kirby's F-smash or even his Hammer. If possible, get to the ledge using Rope Snake when it's safe to do so.

KO Options
Kirby's well-known for his strong KO options, but the truth of the matter is that for as powerful of attacks that Kirby can boast about none of them are safe to use. F-smash, D-smash, and U-smash all carry a lot of ending lag that can be punished if they miss or even if they're simply dodged or shielded. Kirby's Stone and Hammer are even more easily punished than his Smashes (plus they carry Phantom Lag even if used on the ground). Because of this, Kirby should only be using these sparingly and when there's an obvious opening for the attack. Do not, however, get too assured in never seeing Kirby's strong attacks - a surprise F-smash can end a stock very quickly if you let your guard down, and good reads on Kirby's part can net him some early KOs.

Lucas' KO options seem to be much safer in comparison to Kirby's. Lucas' F-smash and D-smash have great qualities against Kirby since they're fairly quick, strong, and disjointed. They work great against Kirby who is light and relies on vulnerable feet and short arms. Throwing out well-spaced F-smash and D-smash can often times lead to favorable results especially when Stutter Stepped or when Kirby is spacing B-airs or whiffing Grabs.

As unlikely as Lucas' U-smash is to land, it is not completely useless. Consider the fact that Kirby has attacks that, once initiated, have a long duration and he's fully committed to using them until they've ended. D-air has 17 frames of start-up and 54 frames before it can be interrupted (IASA). N-air has 10 frames start-up and 72 frames before (IASA). Aerial Stone has 29 frames start-up and up to 2 seconds of duration with an additional 27 frames before IASA. This means that every time Kirby whiffs a Stone Lucas has a possibility of U-smashing him or even getting a fully-charged U-smash. X_X

As far as 'safe KOs' go, Kirby will try to get most of his KO's off-stage or will have to fall back on refreshing his B-air to KO around the 150% mark. Lucas will be getting most of his KOs from well-spaced Smash Attacks or with U-air or U-throw.

Summary
Lucas' strengths in this battle come from his disjointed hitboxes and his psychic attacks enabling him to fight Kirby effectively at long range. Once up close, Kirby has a slight advantage with his quick kicks and combo potential where he hopes to rack up damage and get Lucas off-stage. Fighting off-stage is anathema to Lucas since he needs to get back onto the stage where he's more capable of dealing damage and less likely to get gimped. This match-up comes down greatly to spacing and reading at both mid-range and close-range.
[/collapse]
 

KoozyK

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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ECU or Greensboro NC,
Okay i guess im going first. before i start id like to point out the kirby boards has less threads than us...i thought it was funny.

1)Do not get grabbed at low percentag.
~ can Fthrow to up tilt from 0-16%
~if you DI the wrong way U-tilt, Reversed U-tilt, F-tilt, Grab, F-air, or Inhale are inevitable
~~~~Smash DI out of this if you dont bstick. if you bstick QSDI. It should be possible

2)If kirby off stage DO NOT CHASE HIM unless you are completly confident in yourself.
~Kiby has a max of 5 jumps. in case you didnt know thats 4 more than you.... just saying.
~down air will spike.
~ back air was already dangerous enough
~Finall Cutter spikes.
~Inhale......
~~~~Look kirby can swallow you up, then spit you out to where its almost impossible to recover. and then he'll just float his puffy butt back on stage if he feels like it
~~~~ inhale is obviously a kamikaze move....at this note dont stand to close to the edge of any stage

3) kirbys close range is kinda ridiculous.
~if you can try to play this game mid range if you feel like being aggressive.
~ we can out camp kirby. Final Cutter isnt a problem, just magnet that crap.
~Bair is a 12% move frest, 9% stale. and it 13 frame move. hitting on frames 6-8
~Fsmash is the killer. That Toe gives 15% fresh 13% stale. hits on frames 12-15. the move is 50 frames all together. So if they miss, punish well.
*note: if the kirby likes to think he's smart by doing final cutter close range, if you have a good read you can magnet cancel to fair, uair, and down air.




Pros:

Can Camp,
Better midrange game.
Kirby Light so he dies faster
kirby has slow kill attacks


Cons:
Of Stage we get beat
Close range we lose
Fthrow Combo he has
Can Float....always a ***** to deal with
kirbycide



Again keep the game long and midrange
also i guess we're doing the stage pick next?
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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I wouldn't be all that scared of Kirby off-stage, just as long as you're not blindly rushing at him. If he's turned with his back facing you, then you probably won't win, but if he's facing forward you can probably pressure him decently. I don't think we lose up close either tbh... jab/f-tilt all day.

Kirby is all about exploiting his difficulties approaching, and I say this for every matchup against Kirby. If you manage to get the lead, be patient and make him come to you, and punish him when he does. If you lose the lead... that's where that -2 rating comes from.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
Joined
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Messages
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[Collapse=Past Kirby MU Discussion]Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
---Kirby's Final Cutter - 13 %
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 63

General MU:
-Kirby wins this MU with, Gimps. Play careful offstage.
-At low percents, a grab will end up giving you around 40-60%. So avoid getting grabbed.
---U-tilt and U-air can also start these strings
-At high percent avoid his F-smash, B-air, D-air, Stone and Air Hammer mostly.
-Never charge a U-smash or D-smash, or you're asking to be stoned
-Watch out for a footstool if you escape a Kirbycide. Use the same swallow rules you would against Kind DDD
-Kirby has trouble approaching us, his only approach is B-air, which a well spaced f-air will beat
-PK Fire is essential to this MU because Kirby is too good close range
-Kirby has no offstage projectiles, chase him w/ PKT and PK Freeze
-Do not let Kirby take you to the air, only try to play ground game against him

Quote:
Originally Posted by ★Viper
☆ I nearly always face Lucas, for some reason a lot of people around me loves using him, lol. Anyways it's an upchill battle to me, with Lucas's set up's to his F-Smash and sometimes his unexpected D-Smash. Sadly Lucas can be gimped hard with Kirby, and might die by his D-Air or B-Air if not careful when coming back, sometimes Stone when he uses his PK Thunder, (or if you face someone that knows how to use Stone really well, a rarity). Watch out for Kirby's strings, most of his strings start up's is when he throws you, sometimes it starts with U-Tilt, or U-Air, as you know, strings can lead to some awful after damage for example 0%-40%+ if your not careful. Most of Kirby's killing blows would be F-Smash, B-Air, D-Air, (when conditions are right), Down-B, (when conditions are right), and Air Hammer. ☆
Punishment:
B-air: Well spaced F-air, possibly Sheild-Grab
D-air: OoS Jab or F-tilt
F-smash: OoS F-smash (This goes with all other Smashes)
Whiffed Grab: F-tilt or Jab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galeon
You dont have to ps Kirby's fsmash to fsmash him back. It's free and easy. Random fsmashes get him killed in the matchup.
Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat/PS1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
CP: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield

Quote:
Originally Posted by ★Viper
☆ Lucas does better on Delfino Plaza than Kirby does. =P ☆

☆ Lucas best counter picks would be Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Battlefield. Do not pick the stages you said and to add Frigate Orpheon. ☆

☆ Inhale to the water current FTW!!! ☆[/collapse]

Here is the previous Kirby discussion and we ended up giving it a 45:55 and in the new BBR standarad MU rating system, that would be a -1 MU. I'll try and input more when I'm not tired but I thought of at least getting this in here.
 

Sage JoWii

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This MU is really boringly dumb. Whenever FAE and I play it, I just sit by the edge and wait for him to approach so that I can try and Kirbicide him. If he wanted to, he could juss wait for me to approach, but then the game would time out :/

And everyone should know, Lucas can't be gimped unless he's coming out of Kirby's mouth from a kirbicide, or you're out there with him for whatever reason. If you have to jump off to gimp him, kiss that oppurtunity goodbye.

Zap jumping and Lucas' possible aerial mobility isn't even an issue since Kirby should just stand there and wait for him to approach. All that zooming around doesn't do much if Kirby doesn't move.

Approach us? Roll behind>DTilt or go to the ledge as Kirby.

Stages? You want PS1 maybe since you can run all day and the lip is stupid. Or Lylat, or anywhere that recovering is more of a hassle for Lucas than it already is. Ban BF?

And what I say is in no means a summary of this MU or it's finer points but merely anecdotal situational tips.
 

Chuee

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This MU is really boringly dumb. Whenever FAE and I play it, I just sit by the edge and wait for him to approach so that I can try and Kirbicide him. If he wanted to, he could juss wait for me to approach, but then the game would time out :/
You try to kirbycide him?
troll
 

Sage JoWii

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@T-block- It's an option, not an answer. I didn't realize sentences where end all be all statements. Lucas' approach isn't a concern for Kirby tbh. Go to the ledge, AD(thru)>UTilt, rollBehind>DTilt, jump off the ledge and go over him, BAir, AD(thru)>Grab, RARInhale; all viable options against Lucas. Hell, if I get a read, the second hit of hammer. With that all said, I center my gameplay around Kirbiciding him so anything to get away until an opportunity presents itself is an option.

@Chuee- Yes, I go for Kirbicides. Kirbicides that are timed, as in 'Pause for a sec, walk off', usually end up with Lucas getting footstool'd out of inhale. You juss have to drift with them and spam jump. That puts you a stock lead ahead and Kirby does juss fine camping. Why wouldn't you make that a focus point in this MU if when the Kirbicide fails, there's nothing Lucas can do to punish consistently or even moderately often. Risk? 1-10 is 3. Reward? 10. If it's a stupid stage, you don't even have to try and you can spit>UAir(stageSpike) which has no risk 'less you're bad.

@MU thread- If this is just going to be a thread of Lucas players flaming opinions, I'm not even going to bother. Kirby wins it, not easily, but it shouldn't be hard either. Kirbies lose when they freak out at Lucas' movements and bait game. A stationary Kirby, facing away, by the edge is a difficult opponent for Lucas. If you want more Kirby opinions then go ahead, but I've played my fair share so I'm simply pulling from memories of previous matches and offering them for a perspective.
 

t!MmY

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Overview
This match-up revolves around both players trying to gain positional advantage. Kirby is a close-range fighter while Lucas has the upper-hand when fighting at a distance. Kirby also has a very strong advantage when he gets Lucas off-stage.

Long Range
Kirby is incapable of fighting effectively at long range whereas Lucas has three possible projectiles to send out at enemies from different ranges. PK Fire is the most commonly used since it zones horizontallly forcing the opponent to defend or to take to the air. PK Thunder and PK Freeze are less frequently used since they carry a greater risk of getting punished due to their long start-up, duration, and ending lag.

At this range, and seen in the beginning of the battle, Lucas will usually start off with a PK Fire since it's safe and will create pressure on Kirby from a distance, degrade his Shield, or possibly induce damage. If Kirby responds to the pressure in the form of an approach it will usually be to walk up and Shield (Perfect Shield) the PK Fire, or to jump over it.

Perfect Shielding is the most efficient way of neutralizing the PK Fire and allows for Kirby to move in close enough where he can punish should Lucas launch another Perfect Shielded PK Fire. It's about at this distancing that Lucas is unable to continue the PK Fire for pressure unless he is able to retreat while doing so which in turn forces him closer to the edge of the stage.

PK Thunder and PK Freeze are typically more easily dealt with since they carry more risk, however they have less of a linear use than PK Fire which allows Lucas to weave in some creative pressure with these attacks. PK Thunder can be arched around to keep Kirby sitting in his Shield, degrading it's use, rather than allowing for an easier chance at Perfect Shielding the attack. It can also be veered behind Lucas allowing for the possibility of a PKT2 attack straight ahead, while simultaneously allowing for the possibility of canceling it by grounding the Thunder into the stage. PK Freeze can be charged and directed as it builds up toward Kirby which also makes it unlikely to be Perfect Shielded and thus draining the Shield more than a PK Fire would. Both these attacks can also deal significant damage should they hit, and they also cover more surface area than PK Fire does which makes them more likely to keep Kirby on the ground with a Shield up.

One more note at this range: Lucas' zoning pressure isn't especially significant at extreme ranges. At ranges beyond PK Fire's reach, the pressure is diminished greatly. While not entirely useless, PK Thunder and PK Freeze are easily telegraphed making them more easily defended, but still much more useful than anything Kirby has at this range.

Mid-Range
This is the range at which the pressure turns from being all on Kirby to where Kirby starts becoming a threat to Lucas. At this range Lucas' projectiles are not safe since they can be defended against and then followed with a punishing attack. Because of this Lucas will have to choose to retreat, approach, or play defensive.

Retreating is a viable option since it puts Lucas back into a superior position but only for as long as Lucas has room behind him to move. On smaller stages this won't usually be an option, but on a stage like Final Destination Lucas will have much more room to maneuver. The drawback to retreating is that it puts Lucas closer to the edge of the stage where his options are more restricted and where it is more likely to be pushed off-stage.

Going on the offensive at this point is a possibility but only if you're confident in being able to handle what Kirby has in return. Remember that moving in for an attack puts you into close range where Kirby can get his hits in too. Also, Lucas' approach options are none too difficult for Kirby to handle. See 'Close Range' for more details.

Playing defensive works well for Lucas at this point. Kirby is either going to be patient and wait for an approach that he can counter or move in close. Keep in mind that most of Kirby's approaches will be with a Shield, especially considering Lucas' slow Grab. Pivot Grabs work well against this Shield Baiting since Kirby is hoping to provoke an attack that he can Shield-Grab. If Lucas keeps his distance just outside Kirby's Grab range he should be able to defeat any Shield baiting.

Since this is such a tense point in the match-up it will likely shift into Close Range or be reset back to Long Range depending on what actions both players take. This is where spacing and reading the opponent is of great importance; it will allow for Kirby to punish or approach and it will allow Lucas to reposition himself or to punish Kirby.


Close Range
Both Lucas and Kirby have some surprisingly quick moves to use when in close range. Lucas' Tilts and Standard Attack (Jab Combo) are all very useful at this range as well as his N-air and F-air. Kirby has all the options that Lucas has at his disposal plus his quick Grab which allows for a very useful mix-up should Lucas choose to put up his Shield. Kirby will tend to go for Grab more than any other option especially if Lucas is at low percents so he can get his Infamous Kirby Combo (F-throw -> U-air). Kirby's Tilt and Aerial of choice will usually be U-tilt and B-air since they are quick and effective, though Jab and D-tilt have their uses (Jab is Kirby's quickest attack and D-tilt can allow for Trip combos).

Strategically speaking Lucas will be looking to get Kirby away from him. N-air out of shield works well for Lucas' goals as well as a quick Jab Combo or some D-tilts. All of these options are quick and have different uses. For instance N-air out of shield can be used to defend against Kirby's tilts and then counter attack while moving to a better stage position. Jab is Lucas' fastest standing attack and can catch Kirby before he Jumps or attacks - the first hit of the Jab can also be used to put pressure on a Kirby who is holding a Shield and expecting a slower attack with more HitLag. D-tilts can be strung together to catch a Kirby who is Spot Dodging or to put some pressure on a Shield that's being held - and don't forget the D-tilt is great for forcing a Trip.

Kirby's tactics will be similar but he's looking to either build damage on Lucas or get him off the stage. Kirby's best leads in close combat include his Grab, U-tilt, and D-tilt. His Grab will be used most often since it's quick and effective and is an easy way to punish out-of-shield. In fact, Kirby will often put up a Shield to counter any attacks Lucas throws his way.

If Kirby gets a grab while Lucas is at low percents (about 20% and less) he's guaranteed a combo [F-throw (8%) -> U-air (10%)] with a minimum of 18% damage (minus any stale moves). Kirby can follow this attack up with a variety of attacks depending on the situation such as with U-tilt, F-tilt, F-smash, or another Grab. All of these follow-ups can be avoided if the U-air is S-DI'd away/up from Kirby (or if Lucas is already slightly damaged the U-air will knock him away far enough that follow-ups cannot be combo'd into).

At mid to high percents (30% to 50%) Kirby might still be going for Grabs because it's still a good tactical option to build damage and counter attacks out-of-shield, but his main goal will be to get Lucas off-stage. His F-tilt has enough oomph to push Lucas off-stage if close enough to the edge, but Kirby's real prize-hitter is his B-air at this point.

Kirby's B-air is a 9% hit when sour-spotted which is enough to send Lucas off-stage, but when sweet-spotted it's a 12% hit which can send Lucas flying. Because of this Kirby will rely on his B-air very often; for spacing, for damage, out-of-shield, etc. It can be used at the closest of Close Range all the way into Mid-Range due to it's great horizontal reach combined with its aerial mobility.

Off-Stage Game
Obviously Lucas will delight in getting Kirby off-stage since everyone benefits from getting their opponent off-stage while keeping firm footing and tactical positioning. However, it's much more advantageous for Kirby to get Lucas off-stage.

While Kirby is off-stage, Lucas might be able to send some PK stuff out after the puffball while floats back to the stage, Lucas might even want to take a risk and do some off-stage fighting with B-air spikes, D-air spikes, or other aerial KO possibilities. This is all fine depending on how well Lucas can pull it off, but the truth of the matter is that Kirby is most likely going to get back to the ledge and that Lucas' best KO options will come from solid KO's.

When Kirby has Lucas off-stage these get a bit more one-sided. Lucas only has one mid-air jump whereas Kirby has five. Because of this, Kirby will be looking to snipe that jump from Lucas - most likely with B-air (due to it's 6-frame hit making it Kirby's fastest aerial attack). If the B-air hits solidly enough it can outright KO when used off-stage, and even if it's stale and/or sour-spots it will still eat Lucas' jump and force him to use riskier forms of recovery.

Lucas' recovery isn't as terribad as Ness' since Kirby can't just fall into the PK Tunder and nullify it as can be done with Ness. The PK Thunder however does have a significant amount of start-up allowing Kirby (who is slow in the air) to move out for the possibility of hitting Lucas before the PKT2 takes effect.

Kirby's D-air has a ton of start-up (hits on frame 18) but it can still be used effectively if Lucas is recovering from below since the D-air can clash with the PKT and continue downward to spike Lucas. Likewise F-air and B-air can be used to destroy the PKT even if they don't ever hit Lucas himself. Kirby's U-air and N-air are much less impressive off-stage when trying to gimp or go for KO's and thus will not be seen much in this instance.

Since Kirby's aerial mobility is slow, it's likely that Lucas will be able to recover before getting gimped by Kirby. The best place to aim is for the ledge unless Kirby is going for a Edgehog against you. Landing on the stage with PKT2 lag can be pretty bad since it sets Lucas up for a strong hit such as Kirby's F-smash or even his Hammer. If possible, get to the ledge using Rope Snake when it's safe to do so.

KO Options
Kirby's well-known for his strong KO options, but the truth of the matter is that for as powerful of attacks that Kirby can boast about none of them are safe to use. F-smash, D-smash, and U-smash all carry a lot of ending lag that can be punished if they miss or even if they're simply dodged or shielded. Kirby's Stone and Hammer are even more easily punished than his Smashes (plus they carry Phantom Lag even if used on the ground). Because of this, Kirby should only be using these sparingly and when there's an obvious opening for the attack. Do not, however, get too assured in never seeing Kirby's strong attacks - a surprise F-smash can end a stock very quickly if you let your guard down, and good reads on Kirby's part can net him some early KOs.

Lucas' KO options seem to be much safer in comparison to Kirby's. Lucas' F-smash and D-smash have great qualities against Kirby since they're fairly quick, strong, and disjointed. They work great against Kirby who is light and relies on vulnerable feet and short arms. Throwing out well-spaced F-smash and D-smash can often times lead to favorable results especially when Stutter Stepped or when Kirby is spacing B-airs or whiffing Grabs.

As unlikely as Lucas' U-smash is to land, it is not completely useless. Consider the fact that Kirby has attacks that, once initiated, have a long duration and he's fully committed to using them until they've ended. D-air has 17 frames of start-up and 54 frames before it can be interrupted (IASA). N-air has 10 frames start-up and 72 frames before (IASA). Aerial Stone has 29 frames start-up and up to 2 seconds of duration with an additional 27 frames before IASA. This means that every time Kirby whiffs a Stone Lucas has a possibility of U-smashing him or even getting a fully-charged U-smash. X_X

As far as 'safe KOs' go, Kirby will try to get most of his KO's off-stage or will have to fall back on refreshing his B-air to KO around the 150% mark. Lucas will be getting most of his KOs from well-spaced Smash Attacks or with U-air or U-throw.

Summary
Lucas' strengths in this battle come from his disjointed hitboxes and his psychic attacks enabling him to fight Kirby effectively at long range. Once up close, Kirby has a slight advantage with his quick kicks and combo potential where he hopes to rack up damage and get Lucas off-stage. Fighting off-stage is anathema to Lucas since he needs to get back onto the stage where he's more capable of dealing damage and less likely to get gimped. This match-up comes down greatly to spacing and reading at both mid-range and close-range.
 

KoozyK

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@MU thread- If this is just going to be a thread of Lucas players flaming opinions, I'm not even going to bother. Kirby wins it, not easily, but it shouldn't be hard either. Kirbies lose when they freak out at Lucas' movements and bait game. A stationary Kirby, facing away, by the edge is a difficult opponent for Lucas. If you want more Kirby opinions then go ahead, but I've played my fair share so I'm simply pulling from memories of previous matches and offering them for a perspective.
im trying to give real imput no one seems to want to hel[ :(
 

T-block

B2B TST
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Hey kuz, you gonna get yourself banned this time? =P

Nice summary Timmy, but I think the edgeguarding part underestimates Lucas' ability to recover by quite a bit.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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Why are you here? ;_;

And I just liked that someone actually put effort into something.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
So what stages should we be striking/banning/counter-picking against Kirby? I'd imagine there would be no harm in counter-picking Brinstar. Perhaps PS2.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
We're talking Kirby here....let's go without the assumption of a pocket MK and keep this focused on the matchup itself.
 

FightAdamantEevee

Smash Lord
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I usually like FD against Kirby, just a personal preference. I never even practice on Brinstar anymore because everyone's banned it on me in the past 6 tourneys unless they had a pocket MK.

I ban RC
 

Sage JoWii

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Kirby has no bad stages. FD is a good option though because Kirby IS kinda slow and if Lucas gets the lead, FD is a good place to run away. Brinstar probably as well but that'll be banned by anyone competent.

Ban RC, Lylat? or YI?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Approach options?

It seems a lot of Kirby's love to float around and wait for the opportunity to d-air, so the best way to deal with that is to just get in close to mess with their spacing, IMO.

Also, punishing Kirby's roll is really difficult for me...
 

Triple R

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Wait... your answer to an approach is rolling behind them? x.x

Isn't Kirby's roll...not good?
Well, it's not really about if his roll is good or bad. It's kinda average. The thing that makes it good though is Kirby's options out of it, basically utilt. It comes out quick enough and makes it seem like Kirby's roll is good, even though it's probably average.

Approach options?

It seems a lot of Kirby's love to float around and wait for the opportunity to d-air, so the best way to deal with that is to just get in close to mess with their spacing, IMO.

Also, punishing Kirby's roll is really difficult for me...
I never look for dairs to approach. I almost always look for openings to grab and bair. That's literally it. Approaching with dair is bad unless they do something laggy or you're reading a spotdodge.


Personally I think this matchup is mad annoying. Lucas' nair and jab are by far the most annoying thing ever lol. This matchup is pretty close to even in my honest opinion. It's probably 60/40 Kirby or maybe 55/45 Kirby. Edgeguarding can be kinda tricky too. Most lucas's know not to get into your bair range and do the funky zap jump or down b boost thing high and go right over you onto stage. Lucas is annoying lol.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Alright, well it seems discussion on this MU has stalled, so I'm gonna want to wrap it up soon and move on to the next export.

Post your numbers, folks! I'll go with -1.
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
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I'm going with a -2. Kirby's just able to avoid most of Lucas' crap, while Kirby just ****s on him with B-airs. There's not really a way in against a whole bunch of it. It's mostly just trying to PK Fire snipe him as he gets you closer and closer to the edge where he can harass you. =/
It's a dumb and campy MU.
 

t!MmY

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It's mostly even overall, but I see this in Kirby's favor more than Lucas'.
-1 Lucas
+1 Kirby
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Alright, I've put the information on this matchup in the OP, and this thread has seen all the activity it's going to, though I think we covered a lot of good points.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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Aight so I am closing this since the discussion is over. Head on over to the MU directory to vote for whom we discuss next!
 
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