Kirby Matchup Discussion

[Guilhe]

[LINK] to the Main Matchup Thread

I’ve chose the Kirby vs. Ike matchup as our next discussion topic in reason that it was already discussed exhaustively at “The NEW new Kirby Matchup Thread” and the metagame doesn’t seem to have changed much since then. This discussion should be a breeze, especially for Mr. Doom. For I was the only Ike mainer present at the Kirby Boards Matchup Discussion, I recommend you all to check it out ([LINK] from post 1279 to 1368). Throughout the discussion, a consensus between the Kirby Community’s debaters and me wasn’t reached. But some conclusions were formed. Summarizing the discussion, it has come down to this:

The Kirby players believe their OoS prowess would be enough to guarantee advantage over Ike on stage, while their capacity to gimp would further its overall advantage even more.

For myself, while I do agree that Ike’s recovery is quite fragile before Kirby, I believe that the disjointed nature of Ike’s attacks (while taking in consideration both characters mobility as well) makes him less susceptible to Kirby’s OoS responses and allows him to zone Kirby. Thus making this matchup advantageous to Ike for as long as he is on stage.

What do you guys think?

 

[Mr. Doom]

I copied and pasted from the link I gave in the war room thread, because I am a lazy person. I did add a minor detail about Kirby's d-air, so there.

I will give my little analysis on the Ike-Kirby matchup.

In the analysis, I will refer to Ike as you, yourself, your, etc.

Ground Combat

The overall ground combat for Kirby consists of grab combos (called the Gonzo Combo) starting at low percentages. Kirby would usually wait for the perfect opportunity to grab you. Next Kirby will proceed with a d-throw to an u-air. Then he'll attempt another grab and d-throw to u-air, or maybe an f-air. You, the discerning player, should see the u-air coming, so you should sdi up and away from the Kirby, so that the pink marshmallow won't get a second grab. Failure to do so will result in at least 40% damage.

Another move that a Kirby uses is u-tilt. That combos into itself, until you are high enough in altitude for Kirby to jump and b-air you once or maybe twice. From then on, Kirby's game is shielding your attacks and punishing out of shield with b-air, u-tilt, or grab.

To counter this, space the Kirby with retreating f-airs or n-airs. If you suspect that the Kirby will try to grab you out of shield, fake attacking aerially by just jumping, then grab. Or, you can just run up to them and grab them as well. Regular/Pivot grabbing an approaching Kirby works wonders since Kirby's a defensive player. He's really good at punishing out of shield, so if he's not approaching with an attack, chances are he's going to shield.

Aerial Combat

Most people prop Kirby up for his b-air, but a well aimed f-air will shut down Kirby's aerial game. If you happen to see Kirby trying to approach with b-air, shut him down with your f-air. Kirby's d-air is not too much of a problem on stage, but you should worry about it when he comes down on top of you when the both of you are off-stage. Each drill will spike you, so recover as high as you possibly can. If you suspect Kirby will still try to d-air you from the top, prepare to sdi every hit up and toward the stage. If you so happen to be above Kirby, expect u-airs; they combo into each other. A fast-fall-air-dodge usually suffices, and the Kirby will try to follow up with a d-air. You should be wary that Kirby produces one hit-bubble on each side of him if he lands while doing his d-air.

Water Combat

Battling in the water is overall better for you, but you must watch for Kirby's d-air. Then it becomes a huge tech-chase, once one of you get the first water spike. You will have a major problem to deal with if Kirby manages to get you in the water while he is above. Kirby will more than likely stone you if he sees an opportunity to do so. If you feel threatened, use your upb attack, or get out of the water.

Kill Moves

Kirby's kill moves are f-smash, u-smash, side-b, and the rarely used stone. You should be able to survive most of these attacks until you are at about 120%. DI and SDI play an important role to living to high percentages. Kirby will usually try to set up his f-smash with a d-air, so be wary of that. B-air can kill as well, but only if your DI is horrible and your damage is high. Stone is a harder move to set up, which is why Kirby rarely uses that move. You should always expect the unexpected, though, like a stone out of aether, for example.

Kirby's side-b can kill at 100%. The grounded side-b is not used as often as the aerial side-b, for the grounded one comes out slower and it hits only once instead of twice. Kirby can usually set up an aerial side-b with a footstool. Up smash is generally a fresh move, since Kirby more often uses f-smash over that move.

Countering Kirby

As aforementioned, space Kirby with f-air or n-air. If you choose to use f-air, it'd be best to retreat with them because Kirby's f-smash can still hit you, though sour. One rather dumb thing Kirby can do to shut down your ground game is duck. You will only be able to hit him with aerials, tilts, or f-smash. Kirby would know this and would instantly shield those attacks, so footstool him to provoke him to chase you aerially. Fast-fall air dodge, and you have him under you.

KOing Kirby

Your best bet for KOing Kirby is off the top. Jab to u-tilt usually takes Kirby by surprise; since his momentum canceling isn't all that great, he'll fall off the top of the screen. Take advantage of KOing Kirby with the u-air or u-tilt when he's at about 100%. Of course, you can use b-air or f-tilt to take him out as well.

Videos of Ike vs Kirby

Mr. Doom is the Ike. Holms is the Kirby. We went through all the neutrals and then the available counter-picks.

Games 1 and 2: Final Destination and Battlefield
Games 3 and 4: Smashville and Pokemon Stadium
Games 5 and 6: Yoshi's Island and Delfino Plaza
Games 7 and 8: Norfair and Halberd
Games 9 and 10: Lylat Cruise and Brinstar
Games 11 and 12: Frigate Orpheon and Castle Siege
Games 13 and 14: Jungle Japes and Pokemon Stadium 2
Games 15 and 16: Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat

I shall leave the stage discussion up to anyone else who feels they have a tidbit to pass. Furthermore, if I missed anything, anyone can comment on that.

Mr. Doom used Baton Pass!

Spoiler

Phew... I swear, if I get that "tl;dr" stuff again, then I'm gonna have another cow. I'll put A1 steak sauce on it, too, and a little bit of that K.C. Masterpiece BBQ sauce. Yum.

 

[Guilhe]

Doesn't the second hit of jab hit Kirby while he's ducking?

 

[Mr. Doom]

Oh, it does. I just tested it out.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Ike is one of a few characters, (without WTH grab range), Kirby can jab successfully out of D-Air without getting punished for it. However you might able to jab first but I haven't played an Ike main that jabs right after I perform a feint D-Air so test it out if any of you is able to. ☆

☆ Ike is forced to play defensively while Kirby play offensive most of the time because of grabs and strings etc. U-Tilt, D-Throw, and F-Thow string is mostly effective on characters with weight on them which means proceed with caution or be prepared to get caught in a string. ☆

 

[Renegade TX2000]

ike vs kirby is like 55/45 kirby's adv, but can be argued about being 5/5

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Are you coming to MI anytime soon Renegade? I ask because I want to fight an Ike main that's not my friend and see the difference, there's not many good Ike mains I know in person. =/ ☆

 

[Guilhe]

Oh, it does. I just tested it out.

If Kirby cannot avoid the grab or the pivot grab by ducking Mr. Doom, then I believe our ground game still strong. Also, just saw your first two videos. And I suggest you cancel your jab to grab more, especially on such a shield loving opponent.

☆ Ike is forced to play defensively while Kirby play offensive most of the time because of grabs and strings etc. U-Tilt, D-Throw, and F-Thow string is mostly effective on characters with weight on them which means proceed with caution or be prepared to get caught in a string. ☆

I may not remember correctly but Kirby’s strings don’t last long. Also, as a well spaced Fair or Nair from Ike will shut down all of Kirby’s approaches, this match should be played at a much slower pace, with Ike trying to not get shieldgrabbed and Kirby trying to do just that.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol @ Gonzo combo. If I hear that term one more time I'll explode. It's a 2 hit combo, all it requires is moderate normal DI to not get regrabbed. I might attempt a regrab once to see if my opponent is aware of this, but otherwise, I will usually just Fthrow -> Uair once a stock and then rely on Dthrows.

I do not know this matchup specifically, but afaik, very little can actually be done about a Kirby approaching with a running shield. It is very safe and requires very little commitment, unlike approaching with his overhyped Bair.

I cannot see this matchup being even considering what Kirby can do to Ike offstage. Also, the Kirby in those videos posted tends to spam Fsmash far too much as a punisher. And the Ike got hit by them... a lot. I don't know if that is because Ike is susceptible to them or because the Kirby was very good at predicting them, but every one of those Fsmashes could have been a tilt (any tilt), saving Fsmash for a reliable kill move. Fsmash cannot follow up into anything. Utilt and Dtilt almost always can.

If Ike is really that susceptible to Fsmash punishes, getting a kill on Ike should be easier than almost any other character in the game.

Definitely not more than 60:40 though, considering how early Ike can kill, and he does have reliable kill setups. Probably 55:45 is a safer bet.

 

[Palpi]

Kirby won't approach in the air then. Kirby has a good grab and dash grab and can punish stuff on shields. I think 60-40 is right maybe 55-45. I used to think it was closer to even because on paper you can just say space fairs and nairs like ghuile said, but it is much harder in the actual match.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow, I really think you guys don't know what you're talking about in this matchup.

Kirby has huge range (shieldgrab, F-tilt, B-air, and F-smash) and outspeeds Ike in most situations...learn to powershield his F-air, there is really not much Ike can do against Kirby that won't get punished, and for the most part F-tilt is really gay for Ike to deal with due to the massive range and good speed of that attack. Basically there is no part of the stage where Ike does better. Kirby's ground game, airgame, juggles, and edgeguards are all superior. He easily outpokes Ike, juggles him, and gimps him. I can't see why you guys would even suggest this matchup is close.

First match of Holms vs Doom:

Holms spammed grabs blindly and jumped around too much instead of focusing on poking. That is NOT how Kirby should play the matchup at all. Stay on the ground and focus on outpoking him. This is much easier to do than it looks because Ike is slow, and Kirby actually has really good range and besides, F-tilt outspaces Ike's Jab, so there is very little Ike can do to punish it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A2, take your stupidity out of here already. If the last time we discussed Kirby on the Kirby boards it basically came to a coinflip if it was 6-4 or 55-45 Kirby's A (numbers brought up by THEM I might add), it's not nearly as hard as you seem to think it should be.

You are wrong. You are always wrong. You know nothing of Ike at all, and yet act as if you know more then people who actually use him in tournament and have actually played the MU. Shut up already and stay the heck off of the Ike boards. Every time you post here, or anywhere about Ike really, I'm marking your messages as trolling. As that's all it is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Kirby boards don't know what they're talking about. I'm explaining a strategy that was not properly demonstrated in the videos provided.

You're pretty much wrong about Ike too, since you think he's somehow not garbage that players will eventually figure out and shut down through practice. Ike does well for the time being because EVERYONE EXCEPT A FEW PLAYERS SUCK. 99% of players don't know proper juggling, deliberate powershielding non projectile moves, safe edgeguarding, and proper ways to establish walls. The average competitive player for Brawl is infinitely less competent than the average competitive player for several other games. Ike is a character who has little depth and establishes his own optimal walls with little actual skill compared to other characters, and Ike is even luckier that he has a lot of incredibly smart players who continue to use him as a result of his popularity before Brawl's release.

Now instead of being an insanely biased fanboy over your own character, learn to actually accept your weaknesses, and revel for the time being that virtually nobody is actually good at this game. Learn to actually recognize viable tools and strategies, not just what Ike can do when his opponent makes a lot of spacing and timing mistakes. Ike isn't the only garbage character who randomly gets high placings. Even some Link and Ganon mains have placed extremely well in tournament. Does not change the fact that these characters are ALL competitively unviable garbage.

I'm not doing this because I hate Ike (since rather, I myself happen to like the character a lot). I'm doing this because people like you don't know what they are talking about, and need to learn what high level play is.

 

[Berserker.]

Week 21: Discussion vs [Ike] Rating: 60:40 Post 1279 to [Post 1327.

Uhh we agreed that it was 60:40, not 55:45

Thus making this matchup advantageous to Ike for as long as he is on stage.

Are you implying it's Ike's favor or something? Well this doesn't matter once Kirby starts juggling Ike (Fast-u-tilt to aerial attacks)

 

[Ussi]

Uhh we agreed that it was 60:40, not 55:45



Are you implying it's Ike's favor or something? Well this doesn't matter once Kirby starts juggling Ike (Fast-u-tilt to aerial attacks)

I think he met, Ike has the advantage when he's on the stage, but once he's in the air/Offstage it swings towards Kirby.

i'm for 45/55. A lot of silly things kirby can do can be avoided (like the swallow ****, you can even counter swallow o.O) But Ike is limited to how well he can avoid it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The match isn't advantageous for Ike onstage. Kirby has a better poke game that Ike really can't punish very effectively, and Kirby suffers a lot less from generic juggle traps and does better juggling. Add Kirby's more than adequate options for edgeguarding Ike and the fact that Ike pretty much is not going to be doing much to Kirby offstage (assuming Kirby doesn't Up-B like an idiot), this is a solidly disadvantageous matchup for Ike. Ike can try to do walls with aerials which only work until the opponent just deliberately powershields on reaction, or heck, Kirby can attempt to "camp" with Final Cutter if he spaces outside of Ike's F-air range and observes an attempt to wall.

The videos provided however are awful representation of the matchup, and Kirby does not have to rely on his grab game like this discussion suggests.

 

[Berserker.]

Kirby can gimp Ike's recovery easily with b-airs

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Lol, I didn't imply that you HAD to stick to your grab game, I merely meant, what are they going to do about approaching with your shield? Virtually nothing.

Lol @ Final Cutter suggestion. I will totally try this for lulz if I ever see an Ike walling me.

Ike/Marth's counter works on Kirby/DDD's inhale hitbox?

 

[Ussi]

Lol @ Final Cutter suggestion. I will totally try this for lulz if I ever see an Ike walling me.

Ike/Marth's counter works on Kirby/DDD's inhale hitbox?

Ike can reach Kirby in time in Kirby's lag from final cutter. (granted it takes just a hint of prediction)

Yes counter works on wind boxes. Forget if it works on water boxes.

 

[Berserker.]

Kirby's grabs can be used to easily rack up damage against Ike and his b-air can easily gimp Ike's recovery.

I don't see the MU going to 55:45 Kirby. It's probably 60:40 Kirby or worse

 

[thanortinzak]

I think it's in kirby's advantage.
kirby has Bair WoP, better than Ike's walling options
kirby pokes better
kirby comboes better
kirby has quick KO moves, while Ike's are predictable
kirby is faster

only advantage ike has is superior aerial range/weight/KO ability
and ike's KO ability comes at the cost of being slow

60:40 Kirby favor.

 

[Berserker.]

Hmm.. Can Kirby duck Ike's F-tilt?

 

[Lord Viper]

Hmm.. Can Kirby duck Ike's F-tilt?

☆ Strangely Kirby can't, but he can crouch under his first jab however. ☆

 

[Berserker.]

Oh, anyway:

Kirby has the obvious advantage (60:40)

Advantages of each character:

Kirby's advantages:
Kirby can easily juggle Ike and Kirby can gimp Ike's recovery by utilizing b-airs. Kirby's grabs can be used to rack up damage. Ike's options to kill are to predictable while Kirby's options to kill are quicker. Our d-air works pretty well on Ike since it has slightly strong meteor smash property and at the same time it has guaranteed foot stools.

Ike's advantages:
Kirby should avoid inhaling Ike because Ike can "counter" it. Ike is a heavyweight so he's hard to kill, BUT this disadvantage is fixed by Kirby's ability to combo and rack up damage. Another problem is that Ike mains can take advantage of the lag of Ike's attacks to punish Kirby's failed approaches.

Conclusion:
Kirby must be careful of Ike's killing power but he can fix that thanks to his juggling ability. Kirby's grabs can deal with Ike very well. Ike's recovery is very fragile and to make it worse for Ike, Kirby can easily off-stage Ike with b-airs.