"Kirby is Trash" - The Thread of Where People don't Understand Kirby.

[Deleted member]

So I come across NUMEROUS (around two dozen) messages hearing from people that without an air speed buff he won’t ever be good. So I’ll post around this thread reminding them 1. He isn’t complete garbage 2. They’re missing out on a lot of issues here.

I’ll start with a tweet from today regarding a comment on Tsu’s tier list (I hardly ever look at them but people don’t understand Kirby if they think only air speed buffs make Kirby good)

 

[Deleted member]

Youtube is even worse than Twitter:

 

[Deleted member]

Giving him an increase in air speed will help his offstage and onstage game as well as combos, but giving him a hefty one (say to 1.00) would just be uncharacteristic. Kirby is supposed to be the light and floaty character here.

If people can’t think of anything but air speed, then they obviously don’t understand the full picture of Kirby.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone with a brain cell would also know that someone who has practice with Kirby has good matchups against top tiers and that he has good results in the metagame. Said statement is not backed up and you're basically sending a hate message.

 

[Deleted member]

Is it weird that I beated the entirety of WoL just with Kirby and no one else?

Because I honestly don't find Kirby so awful after that.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not really weird tbh. He has a low learning curve and Spirits are pretty hard to beat at times (Pauline >

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like reddit users still can’t find anything else worthy to talk about other than air speed for improvements. Even if the developers were to do so, Kirby’s main issues still remain untouched. And no way is Kirby even comparable to his Melee incarnation, as the matchups are way easier, his kit and combining gear is much more effective. Can’t believe people are stopping this low...

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Will everyone please shut up about giving Kirby air speed buffs? Kirby's air speed is fine as is, and anyone who thinks differently can kiss the greener (and more painful) part of my fist. All Kirby really needs is a B-Air sweet spot similar to Zelda's, but with fire instead of electricity, more attack and special move buffs, and that's about it.

 

[Deleted member]

Will everyone please shut up about giving Kirby air speed buffs? Kirby's air speed is fine as is, and anyone who thinks differently can kiss the greener (and more painful) part of my fist. All Kirby really needs is a B-Air sweet spot similar to Zelda's, but with fire instead of electricity, more attack and special move buffs, and that's about it.

A lot of misinformation can be spread like wildfire...Hence a lot of people in social media. Reddit has a July tier list where Kirby's dead last and people think he can't approach nor does he have anything whatsoever...and people think he's actually the worst in the game. And people probably Google the information or go to Smash Wiki (things aren't consistent there) and cite information to respond why Kirby sucks (If they want to add the cherry on top, they'll claim to be a Kirby main).

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

A lot of misinformation can be spread like wildfire...Hence a lot of people in social media. Reddit has a July tier list where Kirby's dead last and people think he can't approach nor does he have anything whatsoever...and people think he's actually the worst in the game. And people probably Google the information or go to Smash Wiki (things aren't consistent there) and cite information to respond why Kirby sucks (If they want to add the cherry on top, they'll claim to be a Kirby main).

So it's true... They (the people who think KiRbY iS bAd) ARE all talk and no action. A true piece of trash.

 

[Deleted member]

It’s not that it’s trash...you can’t just spread misinformation. You’d greatly misinform the character about its actual attributes.

Also while people complain about Kirby’s air speed nobody gives a crap about the Ice Climbers’ and Ganon’s. Both are worse but nobody really cares.

Also I’m really sure Kirby is not the absolute worst character in the game.

Here’s one more gift from Frostbite. His moveset ain’t good but stating that he loses a lot of his kit from Smash 4 is pretty unreasonable. Looking on how so many people rely on tier lists and matchup charts on viability, Bairs and fsmashes are not what Kirby relies on 100%. 50% of his moves usable? Come on, are you forgetting about a now great dash attack, still strong dtilts, good up tilts, and solid forward airs?Please, if he had his Smash 4 kit he’d be awful in Ultimate. The developers are kind enough to even rework dash attack/give him more copy hats. Don’t be ungrateful.

Also the Kirby vs Mario Matchup was pretty bad for our pink puffball in Smash 4 because Mario had a much more prolific combo game and versatility with his moves.

 

[Deleted member]

...Twitch streams also have people who clearly haven't studied Kirby well.

On the contrary, Verm even admitted that he hasn't played too many Kirbies. Thinking about a MagicScrumpy's making Kirby viable, he really doesn't have that many flaws. Just look at how Pichu turned from this joke character in Melee to being a very powerful, agile, and hard-to-reach glass cannon.

 

[Deleted member]

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[shade3134]

He doesn't have enough in his toolset to warrant being in kill percent at 90%. Improve the damage and knockback of his moves and he'll be good. Also, stone wall should shield break.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

people that say Kirby needs an air speed buff aren’t completely wrong. It would make is combo game a bit better but also eliminate the majority of his bad matchups. As a Kirby main myself, I’ve been able to manage by playing grounded. Also, if he got the airspeed buff he wouldn’t be able to stall offstage so I’d rather not get it.

As for buffs...I think his main problem is that once his opponent is between 100 and 140 he struggles to kill. Down tilt > f smash won’t work and his opponent isn’t high enough for up throw. I know he has fair1> f smash but it’s pretty hard to get your opponent in that position. And his opponent can tech out of dair > f tilt. I think they should give his down tilt more hitstun at higher percents so he can follow up with a back air and kill. Other than that, my poyo is fine. I don’t need him to be broken, just not super easy to play against.

You're right on that, but here's another thing about those people who want an air speed buff for Kirby: they call him trash and claim he can't do anything.

 

[Deleted member]

I tend to think of Kirby as an unusual glass cannon: sacrificing power and endurance for comboing.

I really want the forward throw to have short and set knockback and it puts opponents longer in hitstun. It gets irritating when someone like Yoshi easily escapes this even at 0%. Jesuischoq himself believes this is one of Kirby’s worst matchups (-3)...also Yoshi benefits more from rage on lighter characters (which includes fighters such as Jigglypuff and Sheik) since the dinosaur has more raw power and more versatile tools to choose from.

Down throw should also have much lower height and set knockback, in exchange for more damage out put (2% more). As down throw breaks all followups, the only purpose is to send opponents away and rack up damage. That’s it.

Jab needs to come out on frame 1 and have bigger hit boxes, also make it 0.5% more damage. It’s Kirby’s worst move in his kit.

 

[Deleted member]

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[Deleted member]

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[Deleted member]

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[Deleted member]

The people who think Kirby is good don't understand Kirby

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

I’ve been wanting that stone buff since this game released. Dair > stone would shield break and punish people who help shield for too long.

I actually got a few shield breaks with Dair to Stone, and sometimes, they're even with a fully charged Hammer. Most of them because someone was stupid enough to raise their shield last minute. Also...

The people who think Kirby is good don't understand Kirby

I'm pretty sure you've got it wrong. Kirby is actually good in bait and punish situations, and I kind of play him pretty well online. Now the people who think Kirby is BAD don't understand Kirby at ALL. They think that he can't do anything at all, and that he needs an air speed buff. To them I ask, why? Kirby's current air speed is good enough. We don't need another Jigglypuff that can't land a Down Special because his air speed is so fast. It doesn't make any sense at all to increase Kirby's air speed. All we need is more attack and special move buffs and a B-Air sweet spot that has either a fire or ice effect.

 

[Deleted member]

The people who think Kirby is good don't understand Kirby

It really depends on what your definition of “good” is. I think a lot of cultural stigma (Again, seriously, do you have to really let the Melee and Smash 4 mindset carry over to Ultimate?) is what make Kirby look “bad”. In addition, metagame developments from Smash 4 weren’t complete, as copy abilities are a versatile, yet important factor of what defines our puffball as a character. Yet the only copy ability that was thoroughly explored was likely Olimar’s Pikmin. Communication wasn’t great there.

Ultimate has a lot more serious players as far as I can tell. Kirby might not have the most flashy/impressive results, but they’re slowly growing. Labbers are detailing much more notes on his moveset, and with the more fast but forgiving pace of the mechanics here, more matchups will get easier. Fox is still a good MU for us for instance (Bless the crouch). We can manage with Pichu glass-cannon playstyle. Another example of manageable matchups for “low-tier” characters: Piranha Plant can nullify Olimar’s Pikmin via the venomous cloud (making damage-racking significantly more challenging for the astronaut).



What I’m trying to say here is that Kirby should still be taken seriously. His moveset is more versatile, more damaging, and can still catch people off guard (in contrast to 4). He can be a threat. Jesuischoq is doing fantastic in the European scene.

 

[boysilver400]

Lol some dude really said Kirby was mid tier in sm4sh.

Kirby may be low tier, but I think a lot of people just don’t understand why he struggles. People think that his general kit is bad, but in reality he’s just undertuned, like most of the low tiers in this game. I wish he just had better frame data for him general. Faster airspeed would be the icing of the cake, but I don’t expect them to increase it that much.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Lol some dude really said Kirby was mid tier in sm4sh.

Kirby may be low tier, but I think a lot of people just don’t understand why he struggles. People think that his general kit is bad, but in reality he’s just undertuned, like most of the low tiers in this game. I wish he just had better frame data for him general. Faster airspeed would be the icing of the cake, but I don’t expect them to increase it that much.

True. If they increase it way too much, Kirby'll basically be Jigglypuff, unable to land a down special most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

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[Dbombiallo]

Lol some dude really said Kirby was mid tier in sm4sh.

Kirby may be low tier, but I think a lot of people just don’t understand why he struggles. People think that his general kit is bad, but in reality he’s just undertuned, like most of the low tiers in this game. I wish he just had better frame data for him general. Faster airspeed would be the icing of the cake, but I don’t expect them to increase it that much.

How is Kirby kit not bad? Most of strengths are way overshadowed by his weaknesses.

 

[boysilver400]

How is Kirby kit not bad? Most of strengths are way overshadowed by his weaknesses.

This doesn’t really make his base kit(outside of his specials) bad. His weaknesses overshadow his strengths because he’s ridiculously undertuned. So many of his moves have startup lag outside of his normals and Bair. Plus he just has several game problems that should’ve been fixed, like the f-throw issue and stone not hitting shield twice.

I don’t understand why he has any of these issues 7.5 months into the game, but my point is that his base kit refers to his moveset, which isn’t his actual issue. Even his specials, which are definitely the worst part of his moveset have it’s niches. For example, Inhale sucks(lol) but in a lot of cases copy ability makes matchups better. The move inhaling projectiles was meant for him to not do terribly against zoners. It just has so much startup and end lag, regardless of whether you actually swallow a projectile or not and it just makes it feel like it’s not worth it. Plus characters can just ignore the wind box. That’s why it’s arguably the worst command grab in the game, but it didn’t have to be this way. This is what makes a move(or in Kirby’s case, character) undertuned. Has a bad base kit.

 

[Dbombiallo]

This doesn’t really make his base kit(outside of his specials) bad. His weaknesses overshadow his strengths because he’s ridiculously undertuned. So many of his moves have startup lag outside of his normals and Bair. Plus he just has several game problems that should’ve been fixed, like the f-throw issue and stone not hitting shield twice.

I don’t understand why he has any of these issues 7.5 months into the game, but my point is that his base kit refers to his moveset, which isn’t his actual issue. Even his specials, which are definitely the worst part of his moveset have it’s niches. For example, Inhale sucks(lol) but in a lot of cases copy ability makes matchups better. The move inhaling projectiles was meant for him to not do terribly against zoners. It just has so much startup and end lag, regardless of whether you actually swallow a projectile or not and it just makes it feel like it’s not worth it. Plus characters can just ignore the wind box. That’s why it’s arguably the worst command grab in the game, but it didn’t have to be this way. This is what makes a move(or in Kirby’s case, character) undertuned. Has a bad base kit.

Mac was designed bad from the beginning. A fighter who does best on the ground in a game were you launch your opponents in the air was a bad decision.I always thought that they should have given his attacks more hitstun, less endlag, and fix some of his hit/hurtboxes. And the endlag on stone would be justified if would act it does in his games.

 

[KahunaLagoona DX]

Just extend his hitboxes a bit, decrease startup/endlag on certain moves, give Stone/Hammer Flip more Shield breaking power, give Inhale more range/priority and he'd be a better character. I mean, I love him to death and I'm grateful for the changes and buffs he did receive, but really that's all he needs. Just make Kirby a Jack-of-all trades character akin to Mario and you've got a solid easy to pick up beginner character that given the right choices would be just as good as Mario without overshadowing him but having him fight alongside him as a decent tournament pick, much like how Mario and Kirby can share the platformer genre without the need to overshadow/get rid of the other. (Obviously, have Dedede be the slower, heavier, stronger Kirby - and Meta Knight being the faster but slightly weaker more combo oriented Kirby.)

Essentially make Kirby Mario's son.

 

[Sean²]

Wish they'd give Kirby Dedede's inhale reflector. I know it wouldn't make much sense when it comes to being canon to Kirby games, but it would definitely give him a better way to deal with good projectile play. The endlag when it explodes/heals is infuriating.

Along with most of the things others have said.

I love Kirby and he fits perfectly into my playstyle, but trying to take the character seriously makes me like the game less.

 

[Oracle Link]

Hes a really good beginner Character and good in world of Light and Dark sadly i cant really talk about more because im not competitive still im pretty Good with him!

 

[StrangeKitten]

So, they've buffed Kirby a couple times now. I don't think he's amazing, but I do think he's a good mid-tier with a strong combo game and small size as his biggest strengths. He's starting to get some good results, too!

 

[RaysFTW]

Kirby isn't outright bad but he's highly dependent on matchup experience from both the Kirby player and the opponent. You can have great results against someone that doesn't know the Kirby MU well but against someone that knows how to exploit Kirby's weaknesses it can be extremely difficult to win the match. Obviously, this can be said about all characters but the ones lower on the totem pole tend to be impacted by this more.

A slight airspeed buff would still be nice thing to have but I don't think it's generally needed to make him good. As KahunaLagoona DX pointed out, buffing his specials would go a long way—extending his hitboxes for non-special moves would be nice but not extremely necessary, however.

Kirby's hammer could use a buff but at this point it's whatever—I don't care if it stays the same unless the buff doubles it's reach, which isn't going to happen. Imo, when it comes to his special it's his Final Cutter (UpB) and Stone (DownB) that need the most help because those move alone can drastically improve his recovery game. Final Cutter is a joke, it can be gimped by a leaf in the wind and Stone's startup time is entirely too long to make it useful for recovering high, escaping juggles, or punishing from above. Give Final Cutter some super armor or extend the hitbox to give Kirby some form of protection so that recovering low can be a better option because at the moment recovering high is difficult due to Kirby's slow airspeed and recovering low is easily punished due to how linear it is. Stone's startup is 11 frames, I believe, and I really believe it should be closer to 3-5.

 

[NYC_NoWayJoseph]

Kirby is pretty garbo. Only thing that's kinda cool about him is the famous succ n cucc tech. Not so great up B, abysmal air speed, no good way to combo betweeen platforms, and always at a disadvantage. It's not melee kirby but wished he was more like his Smash 64 counterpart.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Kirby is pretty garbo. Only thing that's kinda cool about him is the famous succ n cucc tech. Not so great up B, abysmal air speed, no good way to combo betweeen platforms, and always at a disadvantage. It's not melee kirby but wished he was more like his Smash 64 counterpart.

Same here.

 

[T1MMY]

Just give us Melee Kirby please.