Kirby: Ideal Buffs and Changes V3

TimG57867

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#1
Well it's about that time again! We are officially over 7 months into the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate metagame. As time goes on, I have watched many tournament sets, have continually learned about the game's mechanics as a whole, and helped collaborate with others push Kirby's metagame further and further. Not only that, but we've had several more patches since my last update to this thread. 3.0 which actually gave Kirby quite a slew of interesting changes and 3.1.0 which didn't buff him but buffed a bunch of characters in ways that has given me new perspective. Given all that, I figure it's high time take this request thread up Version 3 as my take on the idea buffs for Kirby has continuously changed. Like before, I'll have the previous versions linked here for other folks' reference:

V1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w0JWASyW1shQCbz8Y-dCPN5DQQTDiwFdbjv7WjiyeFA/edit?usp=sharing
V2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nF3XDTfmBcmZNu95NbXeAptXGpaGslsVBDzwh6GY54s/edit?usp=sharing

With that done, let's have a 3rd go at this!

1. Reduce F-Throw's FAF Enough so Low Platforms Don't Interupt It

A fix that I continue to push and is absolutely necessary. If Kirby is to succeed to his fullest ability in competitive, it's key that his main combo throw is able to fully function on all competitive stages. Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat, and Battlefield still interrupt the animation and prevent him from getting a follwup. As far as I know, the devs have never really changed a throw's animation. Not only that but the new does actually open up new conversions for him that weren't possible in SSB4 and gives him a few tricks when he does go above them as well. The only change I can think of that would fix this without messing with the current followups is reducing the lag enough that Kirby can move before his body completely goes aboves the platform. But the dev team has proven that more changes are feasible than we realize so I am down for any adjustment they can make to solve this issue without hinder F Throw's combo potential.

2. Increase Ground Speed to Around 1.8

Another change I remain staunch on. Whenever you see folks asking for a mobility buff for Kirby, the air speed is always brought up, but quite rarely is the ground speed given the same attention. A recall a long time ago, someone saying that a ground speed buff would do more good overall because Kirby's combo and neutral games are more geared towards to the ground and letting him cover more ground with his full run would improve his running conversions while also letting him rush down better and catch landings which has historically been one of his main weaknesses. This buff is also a lot more realistic than an air speed buff because they've buffed his run speed before in SSB4. In this game, this speed would put him a notch above Mario's which I don't think is unreasonable and seeing how he's meant to be the "grounded puffball" in contrast to Puff, I feel it's appropriate that he has above average ground speed to match.

3. Increase U-Tilt's Hitstun by about 3-4 Frames

Now this is 1 area where my stance has slightly changed. In my last set of buff notes, I stated that U-Tilt should have its FAF cut by 3-4 frames to let Kirby get more consistent combos off it again without having to tweak the knockback. However, patch 3.1.0 demonstrated that the devs can increase the frames of hitstun dealt by attacks as shown with how they increased the frames of hitstun on Ryu and Ken's Down Tilts. Seeing this is possible, I think this would be a more graceful mend for Kirby's Up Tilt than making it so safe on shield. Either fix would get the job of boosting the frame advantage done though.

4. Make U-Throw Kill About 20% Earlier

And we're back to changes that I continue to push. On Discord, we analyzed the code for Kirby's moves and we ended up discovering that Kirby's Up Throw didn't actually get nerfed at all! Rather, it's unfortunately just a victim of being in a new game. Ultimate has generally higher blast zones than SSB4 and rage has been toned down a good bit. This means Kirby's Up Throw isn't able to seal the deal as efficently as it used to which is a problem is it means you often have to grab and Down Throw your foe 1-3 extra times to seal off a stock. This can hurt Kirby quite a bit in the long run and I feel it's important that it gets its power adjusted to match the game it's been transferred into. Killing 20% earlier would allow Kirby to get rid of persistent stocks in a much more efficient fashion.

5. Decrease D-Tilt's Endlag by about 3 Frames

Now this is a completely new change! Now some of you may be wondering: "Kirbys' D-Tilt is already rather spammable, why make it even better?" A good question and there's actually some key reasons for that. A big one is that Kirby's D Tilt actually got a KB change in this game. It sends foes away further sooner and doesn't trip as long. On the flipside, its frame advantage as percent increases actually goes up much quicker. You watch Phan7om's D Tilt guide in the resource directory to learn more about this. What this means is that you don't get to benefit from trips as long but it also makes non trip D Tilt's more useful. However, due to Kirby's current range and mobility, he can only barely fully capitalize on non trip D Tilt's at higher percents. If D Tilt had less lag, D Tilt's even at higher percents would be consistently much more rewarding. Not only that but this would make D Tilt much safer to use at low percents where it's often Kirby's best boxing tool and it would give a shield pressure option that's safe even as it stales. They already buffed the endlag on his F Tilt so they clearly aren't above buffing his ground moves despite them being renowned for being great. And plenty of characters like Wario have D Tilt's with FAF of 17 or lower so it's not unfounded.

6. Make N-Air Come out on Frame 3-5

One thing you're going to notice on this buff list is that there are very requests for aerial startup buffs. In the past 4 years, Kirby's awkwardly slow aerial startup on everything bar his B-Air has become infamous amongst the community. I for one was most certainly a detractor of it all for the longest time. However, in Ultimate I've spent more time labbing Kirby than I ever did in SSB4 and as time as gone on...Kirby's aerial data has made more sense. Making Up Air too fast in tandem with end lag buffs it needs (which I'll touch on later) would make it too good to juggle with in tandem with Kirby's multiple jumps. F-Air being too fast would make stage carries and zero deaths far too easy and so on. The aerials, at least startup wise, have frame data that seems nonsensical but actually has some justification. Over time, I now I feel that the one aerial that really needs a big speed boost is Kirby's N-Air. This is because this aerial, if made fast, has the most potential to aid Kirby's disavdantage state (breaking juggles and combos and being better out of shield) while also not making his advantage state too polarizing. Between the game switch and 3.1, they finally got its endlag to where it should be. Now they just need to mend its startup.

7. Slightly Reduce D-Air's Startup and Make Landing Hitbox More Plus on Hit

At this point Kirby's D-Air is a meme. It was never a particularly reliable move back in SSB4 as it needed rage to gain the advantage needed to link into a Down Smash and SDI made it very inconsistent. But going into this game it's been indirectly hindered further. Since moves with set knockback are now unaffected by rage, the landing hitbox's frame advantage is no longer increased with rage with now leads to its frame advantage being set and inconsistent across the cast. And aside from getting its damage on the multihits buffed, D-Air maintains all the ways that make it an infamous noob trab for Kirby's. The move is well overdue for several enhancents. Namely, it finally have that 18 frame startup toned down a bit. The move should remain slow to make it discouraging to randomly throw out in neutral, but also should be made faster in order to make comboing into it more practical which is where the move is better anyway. A startup buff of 2 frames or better would be greatly appreciated. Particularly as it would finally allow Kirby to combo into it out of F Throw without giving opponents a single frame to buffer an option to avoid it. Along with that, they need to take measures to make its landing hitbox more universally rewarding on hit across the board. It's telling that, as demonstrated by Phan7om's latest N-Air showcase, the weakest hit of N-Air does D-Air's job better in a lot of situations. D-Air still has its purpose but I feel it would be so much rewarding for the risk it has if the landing hit was improved. Decreasing landing lag, improving hitstun, increasing damage, etc. are all avenues they can take with improving it.

8. Buff Inhale's Grab Box and Significantly Reduce Lag for Eating Projectiles

I was greatly pleased to a suggested change from the previous list actually happened. That is, the buff to the laughably bad Copy RNG. It's a lot more bearable now but I do feel, upon finally seeing how the Copy loss works, they could have stood to improve it further. Hopefully they hit at it again down the line as they clearly want Kirby's to use Copy Ability more (which has historically been an extremely neglected and underexplored aspect of his meta until recently as we finally started labbing it seriously). However, I want to spend this spot focusing on the 2 major aspects of Inhale which still haven't been touched on yet which are the grab box and end lag for eating projectiles. Inhale is Kirby's defining move which a lot of his kit is balanced around and which makes it important to made as good as it can be. The Copy Abilities can make even the most irritating of matchups more enjoyable but Kirby doesn't start the game with them and I feel he needs the ability to more consistently obtain them. And ironically Inhale itself can help with that. While the suction reaches far the actual grab box is very small. Making it bigger would allow Kirby to more consistently land it off reads and setups. Meanwhile, reducing the lag you suffer for eating projectiles small enough to be auto-swallowed would make it much easier to get in on zoners and Copy their zoning tools. Inhale got a lot of buffs during SSB4's history but the move still isn't where it needs to be if the devs want it to be the center of Kirby's gameplan.

9. Reduce Final Cutter's Startup and Endlag and Restore the Blade Beam's Distance

This is a quirky buff that the more I think about the more I feel is key to help Kirby deal with a lot of the weaknesses that come with his innate design. Beyond Final Cutter, Kirby lacks a good ranged anti air that can contest a lot of the massive disjointed attacks from the likes of :ultike:and :ultrob: . He also lacks the vertical and aerial mobility and range needed to successfully and consistently catch foes like :ultyoshi: jumping all around him. And his slow and weak Up Air and bad jump overall hinder his ability to punish landings. And beyond Final Cutter's Blade Beam, Kirby has no ranged option to hit or pressure foes from a distance with getting a Copy first. I never fails to amuse when I see all these concepts of new movesets for Kirby that include a smorgus borg of projectiles and disjointed weapons when Final Cutter already has exactly what Kirby needs. Its landing hitbox and rising hits among other things got a lot of buffs to make the move more functional and it's just inches away from being a reliable neutral option overall. It just needs to have 3 things done:

  1. Reduce its startup to somewhere in a Frame 15-18 ball park so that you can more reliable anti air opponents with it and use it maintain combos or advantage state
  2. Reduce the landing lag from 31 frames to somewhere around 25.
  3. Restore the Blade Beam's distance which is still reduced from Brawl.
This frame data would make it much more usable without ruining casual play and the devs have demonstrated the ability to change projectile distances. And they've already restored Down Throw to the damage it did in Brawl so why not restore Final Cutter to its old glory too? The move was clearly made to be flawed as a recovery compared to :ultmetaknight:and :ultkingdedede:'s options because it has more applications on stage so it's time to let those applications be consistent.

10. Reduce Up Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 6 Frames

Most folks just want Up Air to come out super fast (think Frame 5 or something), particularly to make Up Tilt Up Air better. But really the shakiness oft he combo at earlier precents in this game has more to do with Up Tilt not flowing as well into it which is mended by my proposed hitstun buff. Not only that, but I feel a lot of Kirby's aerials are hindered more by their endlag than startup with Up Air being the biggest offender. If it had like 6 less frames of endlag with out be able to link into itself and other aerials in mid air more freely and help racked up percent without needing to become obnoxiously fast. And the buff N-Air got to its mid air lag along with its earlier buff in the game transition along with Up Air getting a tiny FAF improvement in the day 1 patch shows they are starting feel this as well. If N-Air could get its FAF reduced twice I don't see why Up Air can't too.

11. Make Kirby's Jab Good

Jab might not bet the first thing folks think of for Kirby buffs but I am gonna be dead honest with all: I and now many other folks am now in firm belief that Kirby's Jab is his worst move now. PERIOD. The move's range was nerfed from SSB4 thanks to the new animation, the hits don't do enough stun for Jab 1 and 2 to combo into other attacks, the rapid jab does NO damage, and the endlag for its incredibly punishing with no gentlmen version to allieviate this. Jab is so undertuned that D Tilt and F Tilt outclass it in almost all situations. This is Kirby's fastest button and it's amongst his ground moves no less! It has to be mended. I believe making his Jab frame 2 in league a lot of other stubby characters' speedy jabs and improving its hitbox size and rapid damage would go a long way.

12. Increase Super Armor on Stone Slightly and Let it Hit Shields Twice Again

Every since the Stone super armor buff, I've felt it no longer needs to be made outright faster and I still feel this way. That's not to say Stone can't be improved further in some other aspects however. Nice as the superarmor is, I think it's just a few frames short of where it should start. If the frames of armor was extended from 19 all the way to 14-15, I think it would help a lot more in landing from rough juggles or catching danagerous but flowed recoveries. And given how unsafe the move overall is, I think it deserves to have its shield break ability restored. Especially as :ultyoshi:and:ultbowser:'s have gone untouched. A few other quality of life buffs like restoring the heavy armor percent back to 30% like it was in Brawl to compensate for the 1v1 multiplier and making the cancel time a bit better wouldn't hurt either.

13. Reduce B-Air's Mid-Air FAF by About 3-6 Frames

Now this is an odd change? What the purpose of this you may ask? Well one thing that helps :ultdk: or :ultmario:'s neutral games is their ability to get out multiple B-Airs close to the ground and this is thanks to their incredibly low endlag. This is a luxury Kirby sadly doesn't share because his B-Air has a rough FAF of 41. Now it's clear the don't want to be the only move he uses like in Brawl but i think they have room to improve it and make it safer to throw out. With a FAF decrease of around 3-6, it would not only be able to AC in a short hop but Kirby would be able to jump up before he's forced to land and throw throw out another aerial. It would make his B-Air a much more fearsome neutral tool.

14. Increase Air Speed to Between .90 and .95

And at last we have the air speed. Over time I've come to make better terms with how Kirby's moveset (particularly F-Air) just wasn't designed with good air mobility in mind. And that's honestly fine. Kirby's kit has the innate tools that, if made consistent enough, would allow him to not need it anyway. At the same time though, I do feel that his air speed could be made just a bit better to improve his combos and disadvantage state without turning him into an entirely new beast. And thanks to his legitimately great air acceleration, it's not like the improvement needs to be massive anyway.


And I think that about does it for my latest batch of changes. As usual I don't actually expect all of these to happen, ideal as it would be. But the whole point of me making this thread is to try give further insight into what truly ails Kirby and why, so that folks can walk away from reading this and have a better of idea suggestions they can bring up to improve Kirby that are both helpful and practical. Hopefully as time goes, a lot of these can be nicked away further and further in some manner.
 
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Joined
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#2
I completely agree with 2, 7, 8, 9, and 10.
Air Movement speed needs a significant buff for Kirby to get on par with the cast.

Down B used to b really solid in brawl due to its quick get in and out times. It was a solid, pun intended, way to punish jugglers or charging up smashes and had great mix up potential. It needs to start faster.

Nair is ok, greater hit range or greater spin speed would be nice. I have less issue with startup and more issue with him getting to his spinning animation / spin speed once he is spinning.
 
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Swordmaster102

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#3
I like all that you’ve mentioned. It’s probably too far to remove a whole attack though, but I’ve been a fan of the idea of just scrapping his hammer (side b) for a long time. It’s useless outside of a shield break (which will never happen hardly with Kirby), predictable, and people who have the most basic fundamentals of smash can avoid it. Hammer should be replaced with either some other special that can actually be used with a purpose (maybe a range attack. I like the idea of giving him the star rod).
 
Joined
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#4
In my opinion for Kirby to be viable he needs

1. Better air speed / jump height

2. An actual kill throw. looking at you Up throw.

3. Reduced lag on swallowing projectiles. When I first heard that Kirby could heal from eating projectiles I thought it would make him more difficult to camp, it turns out if you are dumb enough to even try swallowing a projectile you get run up F smashed from across the stage.

4. Reduce chance of losing copy ability every time you are touched. Seriously this is just annoying, it makes me wonder if Kirby was even tested before being added to ultimate.

Those are the main things, other buffs would be nice (frame data, ground speed, damage buffs, etc.) But I feel like those 4 changes would make Kirby a real character and an actual threat.

As it stands Kirby is a contender for worst in the game and it's pretty sad honestly.
 

*JuriHan*

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#5
Air speed, air speed, air speed... he's too slow!

+ damage on tilts would help too.
 

grizby2

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#6
I agree with all of these.

I remember seeing him place low in early tier lists and thought "he cant be THAT bad right?"

man OH MAN. it is HARD to kill anything with the kirbs now!
hes light AND hits for diddly-squat now... plus hes slow! WHY?! :urg:
I also hate how his inhale can propel an opponents attacks towards you ever faster. I feel like the "catch" ranged should be increased. its his signature move man!

hammer is pretty dang useless, and the reduced shield damage rubs me the wrong way. like.. sakurai.. what even?
 
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#7
Smashes are still very strong and hammer has its ups and downs. against heavies i've managed many shield breaks with it and its a great mind game tool. Speed is def an issue and

INHALE RANGE wtf like give us super armor or increased inhale range. it use to be a great defensive tool now its basically just for getting the copy or occasional ledge gimp
 

Splice

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#8
1. Decrease Forward Throw's height just enough to avoid low platforms
Because of Forward Throws height, we get mixups on some platforms like Lylat where we can get an Usmash on the tilted platforms after we do our Fthrow Fair combo. At low %'s you can Fthrow Ftilt then drop through plat on some platforms and I prefer that to Fair sometimes too coz it's a good angle to end up at. I think we can work on alternative sequences to get followups off the Fthrow because I'm often finding a lot of followups just from reading the DI away with sliding utilt & other cool things. I understand the nuisance though, but I do think you'll get bored of Fthrow Fair one day.

2. Increase air speed to at least .95
This is a good idea because at the moment Kirby gets railed by things like Nikita and it looks like a cruel joke.
But I'm worried it would draw Kirby to get nerfed later, because with a few reads (all at an advantage for Kirby) we have pretty long aerial strings already.
We could probably really mess the game up with too much air speed.

3. Improve Final Cutter all around
Maybe it's just because I'm used to playing the other smash games, but this is quite a high utility B move for recovering because of its rising hitbox, but also it has a FANTASTIC sweetspot if you get it at max ledgesnap range, and at the right timing you can even come down to ledge with it before an opponent can react properly. But it loses to counter pretty hard and you can't really do much about that. Extra height or whatever won't change something like that. This move isn't weak, but it's not OP either. Great combo extender for like hilt spike kill on a high platform after waiting an out an airdodge.

4. Either Cut Up-Air's Startup and FAF or Make it Kill
Yeah buddy spot on. I'd prefer to have a kill move because if Uair was just faster it would have a lot of overlap with Nair because of what they cover and where they kinda hit. You can't string off Uair in this game. Melee Uair is a kill move and its Kirbys only good move in that game, and great fun to use.

5. Reduce F-Air's Startup
I wouldn't mind faster startup but I think it's a really good frame-layout of how it times the three hits of Fair, so as long as only the initial delay is changed it'd be ok. But I also think the move is completely workable how it is and a bit broken. If you fastfall and follow the opponent with your jumps and fastfalls correctly you can 0-death an Ike I'm pretty sure as long as they are at 0% and you start with Fthrow Fair (he can't really afford to airdodge since he needs the height for SideB), and if doesn't work out super reliable it's at least pretty likely you'll follow it correctly. My example isn't just about Ike though; this is already a strong move that can cheese out many characters with the right approach. Also an incredibly incredibly safe kill move for any character to have. It kills pretty reliably at stock cap percents, which is still good and buffed quite a bit at the edge.

6. Improve D-Air's startup and Landing Lag and Improve the Spike
Yeah it would be nice to have Dair's start-up and landing lag improved. I don't want the spike improved because it's good to be forced to get double dair setups or force them out further with a fair/bair first, since we have 5 jumps anyway my friend. Do you really want free kills at 40%? You can get good looking kills at 40% instead, and you should have to; because our character has 5 jumps and doesn't even have to take much risk to go for their INCREDIBLY ACTIVE spike.

7. Improve the Copy Ability RNG
This should have been point #1 and the thread title and the name of the whole character forum.

8. Make N-Air Faster
Yeah 5 or 6f would be a nice change, 3 is getting a bit silly, we're not Luigi.


9. Make Down B Quicker and Improve Shield Damage
Reducing it to 19f would make everyone hate playing against our character, because 10 frames is a lot.
I think it should stay as slow as it is (risky to even use) but it should have really high shield damage or even break shield.
ON a similar note, I also think SideB needs to almost break shield as well.


10. Make D-Throw and/or B-Throw kill better on the ledge
I think Dthrow could have some damage added to it to be a more useful throw, I don't really find it ever gives the best angle so it would be nice if it had enough damage on it to be worth using for the guaranteed percent sometimes.
But I do agree that Kirbys ledge game should be threatening, and imo needs a better killthrow in Bthrow to roundout kirbys current options near the ledge. Especially because at those %'s, you won't set-up for the greatest edgeguards off any of the throws (character dependant!!!)


Dash attack is my man.
 
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#9
Uair i think is fine as it is. It's great for aerial juggling and i'm happy with Bair being our main kill tool. Bair can be transitioned into from Uair very easily so i'd like Uair to stay as is.

========

Uthrow needs more killing power.

========

Air speed at least horizontally would be good. Jigglypuff has low fall speed but high horizontal movement. We could get a bit more love in that bucket at least.

========

I disagree with your comment about DownSpecial. DownSpecial shield damage is fine. Two hits will break shield, isn't that enough? The problem is the minegame potential from getting in and out of brick is gone. You really can only use it for three things:

Gimping recoveries,
Falling from high up to a safe place near the edge of the stage,
Falling on a guaranteed hit like someone charging Usmash

I use to use DownSpecial a lot to mindgame and condition opponents to stop Usmashing.

========

Hammer in the air needs to go back to Brawl Hammer.
Hammer on the ground is FKing fantastic. I've gotten so many kills and shield breaks from this.

========

What about our Neutral B, we should get the option to spit out projectiles we suck up instead of auto-swallowing them.
Like DDD auto-spits these out and its great.
Eat lag is so long we are penalized for using the move. It's ridiculous from a design perspective to make a move have negative return on investment for its primary use.

If neutral special worked more effectively it would really buff Kirby's game against projectile heavy matchups.
 
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Jgod

Smash Cadet
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Oct 4, 2014
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46
#10
Losing copy off some bum hit needs to go.
Stone needs higher KBG. This would be rather significant.
Ftilt should be 2 or 3% more damage.
D-tilt with 2 or 3 frames less lag.
Imo I'd like faster start-up on FC
D-air to have foot invincibility.

Stone isn't rewarding enough. If it was ending stocks 20% earlier I would be happy.
Meh Kirby's air game is passable. He is 'fast' on the ground, but his specials reward is meh. FC works for what it is, Stone just straight up should give more reward, If anything a stone buff is going to Kirby more of that Niche he's waiting for off-stage that make other character's stand-out. Argument would be him being more polarizing to certain types of recoveries but that's exactly the point when I suggest a KBG buff to stone. Generally, the characters he is going to land stone are, are going to be those that are oppressive to him on the ground. These characters often have easy to follow or linear recoveries.

For the Sheiks, Pikachu's, and Yoshi's it isn't going to be as substantial, but then in the former cases a stable copy, stronger f-tilt and faster-dtilt are going to be more realistic options.
 
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Ez Quinn

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#11
I like all that you’ve mentioned. It’s probably too far to remove a whole attack though, but I’ve been a fan of the idea of just scrapping his hammer (side b) for a long time. It’s useless outside of a shield break (which will never happen hardly with Kirby), predictable, and people who have the most basic fundamentals of smash can avoid it. Hammer should be replaced with either some other special that can actually be used with a purpose (maybe a range attack. I like the idea of giving him the star rod).
I actually enjoy the hammer lol
 

HyperL

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Jun 13, 2015
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#14
I agree with 1, 4, 7, 8 and 10. The rest I feel are things Kirby should have to deal with.

Instead, I would reduce the lag on all his tilts by 2-5 frames and make the auto-enhale animation cancelable.

You gotta remember that Sakurai has to make sure moves aren't broken in casual play. Any buff to stone's startup, kill power or shield damage just makes it more of a casual destroyer.
 

BuffKirby

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 18, 2019
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#16
Copy should never be knocked out of kirby unless he is KO'd. Period.

Why put the time and effort into making over 75+ Kirby hats when the move is nearly unusable because of how easy it is to knock the ability out of you.
The developers want Kirby to resemble more of his abilities in Kirby franchise rather than actually focus on his fighting styles. They prefer looks than fighting styles (“He’s balanced already!”).
 
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#17
The developers want Kirby to resemble more of his abilities in Kirby franchise rather than actually focus on his fighting styles. They prefer looks than fighting styles (“He’s balanced already!”).
Pretty sure the devs think Kirby's copy ability makes him OP, which is sad and pathetic. Kirby is on Little Mac's heels for worst fighter.
 

BuffKirby

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#18
I think 64 > Brawl > SSB4 > Melee > SSBU

I genuinely believe while SSBU has so much more positive qualities than Melee, though I think popularity-wise he's going to perform even worse than the Melee incarnation (I think even Little Mac has more support. Just look at Ganon, Zelda, Jigglypuff!).

Hammer Flip = Trash, replace with Star Rod (Where you can charge up and has unlimited range)

Stone = I like it the way it is honestly

Final Cutter = Like it the way it is, just needs more damage and knockback

Inhale = More range and quicker startup.

I'm not sure why they significantly buffed PICHU over Kirby. Either the devs think Kirby is OP or they have 0 competitive knowledge. I'd say both.
Wasn’t there a throw from Kirby in Brawl that could kill opponents at mid-high percents? I feel like this should be reimplemented.
 
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MercuryPenny

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#19
I'm not sure why they significantly buffed PICHU over Kirby.
reimagining pichu as the glassiest cannon in the game was something anyone could come up with, it's the easiest idea to come up with to make him not a joke. kirby needs the same sort of reimagining of his archetype imo.

even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
 

boysilver400

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#20
even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
wtf? This is all wrong.

First of all, kirby still has plenty of low percent combos(How easy they are to do varies) There have been plenty of videos on his combos.


The latter vid is outdated but most of the combos still apply today

And do you seriously expect to believe that after all of those buffs you mentioned(ESPECIALLY the air speed buff) he wouldn't be a better character??? That's bs: Top players like ESAM and Zero have said that he would be infinitely better with faster air speed alone. He would have low percent ground combos, faster air speed to catch up to people and be a better edge guarder at mid-high percents, and with a kill throw(A better up throw, as you mentioned) his kill power(which is honestly fine. Don't know why people say it's bad; he's not Sheik or Squirtle) would be better.

So no, he's not a dysfunctional character, he doesn't even need that many buffs, hell, even without faster air speed, having faster airials would also make him better.

Kirby isn't dysfunctional like the likes of Little Mac. Just looking at Komota at frosbite, even if he didn't go far shows that he could easily be better with the right buffs, hell, you could even watch the few times Captain L used Kirby.

/rant. Sorry if I sounded rude, but I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle at this point. Like I seriously had to deal with someone who thought :4kirby: had the better dash attack, and....no.

Edit: Also this post is kinda sloppy now that I think about it. I was honestly in blind fury when typing this lol
 
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TimG57867

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#21
reimagining pichu as the glassiest cannon in the game was something anyone could come up with, it's the easiest idea to come up with to make him not a joke. kirby needs the same sort of reimagining of his archetype imo.

even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
You basically listed off all the things Kirby would need (along with a better N-Air and Up-Air among other potential fixes) to become a bonafide high tier character. LOL

An Up Tilt with less endlag would basically fix his entire low percent combo issues atm when he can't get a grab and give him sweet shield pressure.

F Throw getting its endlag reduced with solve the BF issue and make its followups even better.

F-Air being faster would improve his best kill setup, edgeguarding, and make a sweet OOS option.

No Copy Ability Loss on its own would solidify Kirby as a low mid tier at worst. So many threatening characters get a run for their money when he as their power including deadly threats like :ultolimar: and :ultgreninja:

Better air speed would amp his edgeguarding, spacing, combos, and help him recover and avoid juggles better.

And improved hitboxes on moves like Up Smash would make them nasty.

And that's all BEFORE the changes you could make to his N-Air, D-Air, Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone.

And it also happens that most of this stuff is things the devs never really did in SSB4 so it isn't suprising :4kirby: faltered. All the patches did was giving him back the barest essentials he lost from Brawl and didn't even restore all of them. But this is a new game now and the devs are trying new stuff (Super Armor on Stone. Wow). So the sky's the limit for what can happen this time. I'll develop and push Kirby regardless but it's silly to think Kirby couldn't be a terror with the right fixes.

Btw, I updated this thread Version 2.
 
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#22
They need to lower the knockback dealt by Kirby's f-throw so people don't land on the platforms on battlefield after being thrown. Kirby has half of the combo options that he does on battlefield and other platforms.

Making his airspeed faster and improving his aerial frame data would really improve his aerial combo game , edgeguarding, OOS options, and recovery.
 

BuffKirby

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#23
You basically listed off all the things Kirby would need (along with a better N-Air and Up-Air among other potential fixes) to become a bonafide high tier character. LOL

An Up Tilt with less endlag would basically fix his entire low percent combo issues atm when he can't get a grab and give him sweet shield pressure.

F Throw getting its endlag reduced with solve the BF issue and make its followups even better.

F-Air being faster would improve his best kill setup, edgeguarding, and make a sweet OOS option.

No Copy Ability Loss on its own would solidify Kirby as a low mid tier at worst. So many threatening characters get a run for their money when he as their power including deadly threats like :ultolimar: and :ultgreninja:

Better air speed would amp his edgeguarding, spacing, combos, and help him recover and avoid juggles better.

And improved hitboxes on moves like Up Smash would make them nasty.

And that's all BEFORE the changes you could make to his N-Air, D-Air, Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone.

And it also happens that most of this stuff is things the devs never really did in SSB4 so it isn't suprising :4kirby: faltered. All the patches did was giving him back the barest essentials he lost from Brawl and didn't even restore all of them. But this is a new game now and the devs are trying new stuff (Super Armor on Stone. Wow). So the sky's the limit for what can happen this time. I'll develop and push Kirby regardless but it's silly to think Kirby couldn't be a terror with the right fixes.

Btw, I updated this thread Version 2.

Or just replace hammer flip with star rod. Kind of like Samus’ charge shots. (This isn’t going to happen, but would be interesting and more beneficial)
Maybe give Kirby a speed boost (Pikachu speed, in general he is a very fast character). Maybe give him a 0.97 in air speed.
Maybe make Stone startup much more faster (Not like 40 frames, reduce it to 24 or something).
 
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#24
Or just replace hammer flip with star rod. Kind of like Samus’ charge shots. (This isn’t going to happen, but would be interesting and more beneficial)
Maybe give Kirby a speed boost (Pikachu speed, in general he is a very fast character). Maybe give him a 0.97 in air speed.
Maybe make Stone startup much more faster (Not like 40 frames, reduce it to 24 or something).
Maybe not Star Rod specifically, but at least some disjointed/projectile attack. Kirby's lightweight brawler playstyle isn't super beneficial unless he has a disjoint or a faster airspeed.
 

MercuryPenny

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#25
yeah i didn't really think very hard about how much those buffs would really do lol. definitely wouldn't say they'd make him high tier though, dead center of mid at best imo
 

TimG57867

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#28
yeah i didn't really think very hard about how much those buffs would really do lol. definitely wouldn't say they'd make him high tier though, dead center of mid at best imo
More like at minimum. The simplistic appearance of Kirby's kit completely contrasts and betrays just how lethal it could be with the right values. Completely discounting Inhale, the right spec tuneups would catapult Kirby's advantage state to being one of the most potent in the game. He has so many moves that lead to into good conversions as is but the awkward frame data on a lot of them hold them back. Just fixing F Throw and buffing Up Tilt would already make both the potency and ease of his combos shoot up at a wide variety of percents while also opening new kill confirms. He has a bunch of neat mid percent combos being found as is but struggles to consistently put on a lot of damage from 0/super low percent unless he can get a grab with good stage positioning. Making F Throw and Up Tilt quicker on the endlag would completely patch up these issues and make his neutral wins so much more meaningful.

F-Air is unequivocally Kirby's best move right now and would be top tier move in the game as a whole if not for that pesky Frame 10 startup. Coming out on Frame 6 would greatly improve his approach options, out of shield options, combos, edgeguards, and make his best kill confirms even easier to land. And a meaningful air speed increase would amplify the benefits of these changes.

But the thing that would really knock it home is the accursed Copy RNG mechanic being removed. Kirby's Copy Abilities massively improve over 75% of his matchups and have so much utility from giving him great zone options to new kill confirms to strong edgeguarding tools and so much more. But you don't see Kirbies abuse it to the fullest simply because it could be lost at any moment. Get rid of that and you've finally turned Inhale into the key X factor needed to push a character from "decent" to great. At best I expect the devs to change how abilities can be lost or greatly improve the drop rate down the line. But if they by some crazy chance were to get rid of that dreadful mechanic it would on its own vastly improve his matchup spread as his copy abilities often give him many of the things he sorely lacks in his base kit as it's currently implemented.

You shouldn't underestimate Kirby's innate tools. With Prodigy getting 13th at Genesis and helping to make a good high tier case for :ultmario: and Komota managing to get 65th at Frostbite with Kirby in his current underpowered state, I see no reason Kirby couldn't perform similar if his moveset got the right changes. At the cost of some aerial acrobatics, better durability, spammable Smashes, FLUDD. and off the top cheese, you'd have a character with multiple jumps, a very strong ground game, extremely adaptable combos, and a special command grab that would give him a leg up in many matchups in ways a lot of his stubby cohorts could only dream of.

I'm especially certain my proposed fixes would do the job.
 
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BuffKirby

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#29
More like at minimum. The simplistic appearance of Kirby's kit completely contrasts and betrays just how lethal it could be with the right values. Completely discounting Inhale, the right spec tuneups would catapult Kirby's advantage state to being one of the most potent in the game. He has so many moves that lead to into good conversions as is but the awkward frame data on a lot of them hold them back. Just fixing F Throw and buffing Up Tilt would already make both the potency and ease of his combos shoot up at a wide variety of percents while also opening new kill confirms. He has a bunch of neat mid percent combos being found as is but struggles to consistently put on a lot of damage from 0/super low percent unless he can get a grab with good stage positioning. Making F Throw and Up Tilt quicker on the endlag would completely patch up these issues and make his neutral wins so much more meaningful.

F-Air is unequivocally Kirby's best move right now and would be top tier move in the game as a whole if not for that pesky Frame 10 startup. Coming out on Frame 6 would greatly improve his approach options, out of shield options, combos, edgeguards, and make his best kill confirms even easier to land. And a meaningful air speed increase would amplify the benefits of these changes.

But the thing that would really knock it home is the accursed Copy RNG mechanic being removed. Kirby's Copy Abilities massively improve over 75% of his matchups and have so much utility from giving him great zone options to new kill confirms to strong edgeguarding tools and so much more. But you don't see Kirbies abuse it to the fullest simply because it could be lost at any moment. Get rid of that and you've finally turned Inhale into the key X factor needed to push a character from "decent" to great. At best I expect the devs to change how abilities can be lost or greatly improve the drop rate down the line. But if they by some crazy chance were to get rid of that dreadful mechanic it would on its own vastly improve his matchup spread as his copy abilities often give him many of the things he sorely lacks in his base kit as it's currently implemented.

You shouldn't underestimate Kirby's innate tools. With Prodigy getting 13th at Genesis and helping to make a good high tier case for :ultmario: and Komota managing to get 65th at Frostbite with Kirby in his current underpowered state, I see no reason Kirby couldn't perform similar if his moveset got the right changes. At the cost of some aerial acrobatics, better durability, spammable Smashes, FLUDD. and off the top cheese, you'd have a character with multiple jumps, a very strong ground game, extremely adaptable combos, and a special command grab that would give him a leg up in many matchups in ways a lot of his stubby cohorts could only dream of.

I'm especially certain my proposed fixes would do the job.
That's true all of these qualities would make Kirby much better, but how would we get these buffs if the developers aren't aware of these?
There's three problems (Sorry for raining on the parade)

1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"

2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.

3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).

My bad if my rant goes off the mark.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#30
1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"
Entirely possible. Remember that Sakurai has stated before that he avoids representing/focusing on Kirby too much so it doesn't look like he's biased towards his own series. Kirby was the 2nd best in Smash 64 and has been a low tier since then, I'd reckon the devs know he's seen as bad at this point but are worried about buffing him to avoid accusations of bias.
2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.
Also likely. It could simply be that the devs think Kirby's inhale and recovery make him OP and that having a low damage output, piss poor airspeed and unreliable KO options balance that out. Sakurai even said that the pool the win/losses from online play and that overall the win/lose ratio for every fighter is about the same (with an error margin of about 10% IIRC). To them it could seem like every fighter is almost perfectly balanced and not in need of buffs.
3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).
Highly unlikely IMO. I don't think the devs are so heartless that they would intentionally nerf a fighter in response to people asking for buffs (although Kirby was heavily nerfed from Smash 4). That would simply be counterintuative; people would ask for even more buffs. I've seen Isaac and Shadow fans argue that Sakurai and the devs were deliberately trolling them by revealing those two as AT's last and their argument makes no sense.

Although I agree with you that the devs may have been (obviously nothing can be confirmed) biased for some fighters when buffing them.
 

TimG57867

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#31
That's true all of these qualities would make Kirby much better, but how would we get these buffs if the developers aren't aware of these?
There's three problems (Sorry for raining on the parade)

1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"

2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.

3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).

My bad if my rant goes off the mark.
It’s far too early to be concerned with issues like this. Not many characters got drastic buffs in 2.0 and historically the devs don’t always fix things immediately. In SSB4 they didn’t fix F Throw until July 2015 which was more than 9 months after release of the 3DS version. It can take time before they finally get around to something even when the issue is widely known. Just look at SSB4 Mewtwo.

Regarding Sakurai bias I think people blow it WAY out of proportion. The only time it was blatantly in effect was Melee. Since then Kirby hasn’t gotten the shaft anymore than lots of other unlucky characters. Not only that but Sakurai doesn’t even help with balancing anymore so he’s not a great scapegoat anymore. Plus Kirby got lots of direct buffs going into the game which technically we’ll exceed the nerfs in quantity. And even with the nerfs it’s clear the devs intended for them to balance Kirby out rather than outright make him worse. This happens with many characters and issues like this are likely to be touched on over time as their data becomes more substantial.

And concern number 3 is obviously invalid as Kirby was one of the few characters to get meaningful buffs in 2.0. The buffs his F Tilt got alone blow his early SSB4 buffs out of the water so any fear of the devs out to make Kirby bad are totally unfounded. Not only that but his Stone buff was completely unlike anything he ever got in SSB4 so there’s precedent for further experimental changes. It’s clear the devs aren’t going to do exactly what they did last time. They’re taking a new approach and we still don’t have a clear picture of it.

All in all those these are rather silly things to be worked up over at this time. If things stay exactly like this a year from now, then sure something is definitely wrong. But this early on and especially a month ahead of another patch, it’s really not worth fretting over this stuff. Just bring up these issues in various places whenever possible and just focus on improving as is. Things like this are out of our control and can take time.
 
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A-money2121

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#32
I always thought that giving down-b a meteor hitbox during the move's first few frames would be pretty nice - kinda like Bowser's down air, for reference. It would, I think, improve it's edge guarding capabilities, and make it a little bit more threatening over all. Nonetheless, I really agree with all these proposed changes. I would mainly prioritize in giving him more air speed, reduced lag on u-air so that it could string with other aerials, making hammer useful, and of all things, buffing his inhale. I really don't understand how inhale and copy, being Kirby's main gimmick and ability, is so hard to utilize effectively. And if I'm even LUCKY enough to copy an enemy's ability, I lose it two hits later. Some of these copy abilities can be pivotal in a match-up - but considering the disadvantageous inhale move, and the common likelihood of loosing a copied ability, it has rendered itself useless. I honestly have no idea why Sakurai's balance team was satisfied with this. Above all, I'm totally down for an increase in inhale's grab box, less start-up, and reducing the probability of loosing a copied ability - as well as the aforementioned changes addressed above.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#33
I feel that if anything, air speed is among the biggest offenders. Why is Kirby still plagued with such an awful air speed value, while Meta Knight is blessed with an air speed value that's more decent?

I get that Kirby doesn't move all that fast while flying in his games, and yet, look at Yoshi. In Yoshi's games, he actually moves slow while flutter jumping, but is blessed with the best air speed (surpassing even Jigglypuff, whom I feel should've been #1) of any fighter right now.

While TimG57867 TimG57867 suggested to raise Kirby's air speed to 0.95, that's barely better than King K. Rool's predicament, and may not be enough for someone whose up special hardly does anything to help with his horizontal movement. Maybe increase Kirby's air speed to around 1.1? Debatable for some, but could be a positive step in helping Kirby become more viable.

On the other hand, a better aerial approach could lead to new issues, especially when you look at Peach; if Peach is given better air speed, that could result in unwanted scenarios if you don't do any mobility and/or moveset adjustments for all the other fighters.
 

TimG57867

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#34
I feel that if anything, air speed is among the biggest offenders. Why is Kirby still plagued with such an awful air speed value, while Meta Knight is blessed with an air speed value that's more decent?

I get that Kirby doesn't move all that fast while flying in his games, and yet, look at Yoshi. In Yoshi's games, he actually moves slow while flutter jumping, but is blessed with the best air speed (surpassing even Jigglypuff, whom I feel should've been #1) of any fighter right now.

While TimG57867 TimG57867 suggested to raise Kirby's air speed to 0.95, that's barely better than King K. Rool's predicament, and may not be enough for someone whose up special hardly does anything to help with his horizontal movement. Maybe increase Kirby's air speed to around 1.1? Debatable for some, but could be a positive step in helping Kirby become more viable.

On the other hand, a better aerial approach could lead to new issues, especially when you look at Peach; if Peach is given better air speed, that could result in unwanted scenarios if you don't do any mobility and/or moveset adjustments for all the other fighters.
The thing you need to keep in mind is air acceleration. K Rool’s air acceleration is like bottom 15 so he can’t make much of his air speed. Kirby’s air acceleration on the other hand is Top 20 and tied at 15th. This means any increase to his air speed will have a far more magnified affect, especially since he’s floaty and can stay in the air longer. This is why I suggested .95. It’s a substantial increase from .84 but not so much that it will likely cause unfavorable ramifications that would require rebalancing of Moves like F-Air.

To put it in perspective, .958 is about the value Ness had in SSB4 and he was renowned for his air agility. While the air speed value wasn’t super high, Ness’s incredible air acceleration let him get a ton out of it. An air speed buff will help Kirby but it’s key not to make it TOO good.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#35
The thing you need to keep in mind is air acceleration. K Rool’s air acceleration is like bottom 15 so he can’t make much of his air speed. Kirby’s air acceleration on the other hand is Top 20 and tied at 15th. This means any increase to his air speed will have a far more magnified affect, especially since he’s floaty and can stay in the air longer. This is why I suggested .95. It’s a substantial increase from .84 but not so much that it will likely cause unfavorable ramifications that would require rebalancing of Moves like F-Air.

To put it in perspective, .958 is about the value Ness had in SSB4 and he was renowned for his air agility. While the air speed value wasn’t super high, Ness’s incredible air acceleration let him get a ton out of it. An air speed buff will help Kirby but it’s key not to make it TOO good.
Still, you have to ask why Meta Knight's air speed is better. He already has more diverse recovery options than Kirby, but I guess being a faster faller (especially when combined with his high gravity value) could explain his faster air speed.

And then there's Jigglypuff, whose air acceleration is ranked among the best, has very good air speed, AND it's the slowest faller of the bunch.
 

TimG57867

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#36
Still, you have to ask why Meta Knight's air speed is better. He already has more diverse recovery options than Kirby, but I guess being a faster faller (especially when combined with his high gravity value) could explain his faster air speed.

And then there's Jigglypuff, whose air acceleration is ranked among the best, has very good air speed, AND it's the slowest faller of the bunch.
You do have to look at the other traits too. Yeah Meta Knight has way more air speed but as you said this is dialed back by his gravity and fall speed along with his mediocre air acceleration.

As for Puff, they clearly designed her around those specs. Her aerials generally have less reach than Kirby outside of her B-Air, her F-Air is a single hit attack, and above all they made sure she has no grab game and garbage ground game.

I actually sometimes wonder what it would be like if, assuming they've decided they would never increase air speed, they instead boosted Kirby’s run speed again. He now has a solid initial dash in this game and Ultimate’s mechanics would let him shine more than ever with more run speed seeing how good his ground moves are and I imagine a run speed buff is much less likely to break Kirby. Hence why I included it.

In any case, they’ll probably never make Kirby’s air speed outright GOOD and with the right fixes they don’t truly have to. I do believe they have room to improve it without breaking Kirby though and it would make spacing and recovery a lot easier for him. It’s a delicate balance to walk though.
 
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BuffKirby

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#37
So, watching some locals/regionals play, I'd say magnify dash attack to kill at around 120% (at the center of Final Destination), Make up throw kill at 130% (again, center of final destination), and probably make the damage output to tilts increased by 0.8%. A lot of times Kirby "almost" finishes the opponent, but opponents have enough time to turn around the stock and likely the game. I'd say make Kirby more destructive on damage output, but don't do much to his knockback. I think his combo playstyle, while not outstanding, is managable for me for now. Kirby has feats of breaking planets in Megaton Punch.

Range is also a pretty big issue. Make the hit boxes on all of his attacks bigger.

Also, Make Kirby heavier. Since he dies pretty early, increase his weight to match Falco/Rosalina’s (82). Ok, he’s not gonna be very susceptible to combos anyways, he’s floaty, but he just needs to survive a bit longer. I’m tired of him to see him die at pretty low percents. It really saddens my heart.

Also anybody who says Increased air speed will make Kirby top tier needs to smack themselves in the head. LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD...
 
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Yangguizi

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#38
A lot of these posts, including the opening one, layout changes that would definitely make Kirby better but mostly in ways that any character could benefit from. I think an interesting alternative direction to take would be to think about what the SMALLEST change you could make to Kirby to make him more competitively balanced.

If you buff a slew of his moves of course he would be better. Assuming we leave the characters movement and weight stats alone what does he really need? The concept of a character who is light and has poor movement speed along with multiple jumps is unique in the game. It also has inherent issues but my question is without changing that fundamental concept what is the least you would do to make him work as a character.
 

BuffKirby

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#39
Kirby obviously is still lacking on his issues from Smash 4, so small changes that don’t address his significant flaws aren’t going to fundamentally improve his character as much.

Adding more raw power and making more solid comboing abilities would also work. Brawl Kirby had deceptively strong moves and had solid comboing abilities. Here’s my list of changes to benefit Kirby without changing his speed/weight (though I think his weight should be raised as he dies unreasonably early to certain attacks).

1. Up throw can KO anyone in the cast at 115% or under. Most times Kirby would “almost” KO his opponent like this, but this gives characters like Samus time to make a comeback with the help of rage, which would be pretty disappointing.

2. Forward throw SHOULD NOT GO ABOVE PLATFORMS! Basically Kirby is even less effective on stages such as Battlefield, and his comboing setups have been worsened there.

3. Inhale should have faster startup than Dedede’s, and also having the ability to spit out projectiles. Dedede also enjoys being able to spit out projectiles (basically a reflector), while Kirby suffers through an animation where he has to swallow and get punished (for trying to heal a measly 1%)

4. Dash attack destroys anybody at 120%. Like point 1, his opponents often live long enough to make a comeback (with the help of rage), disappointing Kirbies who often don’t live long enough to use it.

This is how I’d improve his power.
 

TimG57867

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
495
#40
A lot of these posts, including the opening one, layout changes that would definitely make Kirby better but mostly in ways that any character could benefit from. I think an interesting alternative direction to take would be to think about what the SMALLEST change you could make to Kirby to make him more competitively balanced.

If you buff a slew of his moves of course he would be better. Assuming we leave the characters movement and weight stats alone what does he really need? The concept of a character who is light and has poor movement speed along with multiple jumps is unique in the game. It also has inherent issues but my question is without changing that fundamental concept what is the least you would do to make him work as a character.
The thing is my suggested changes don’t really change is concept as a character at all.

The only thing that comes close to that is the ground speed buff and that’s for the sake of emphasizing how Kirby in his main games excels on the ground. We he still wouldn’t be a speed demon even with that speed anyway. It’s just a notch above Mario and they’ve buffed his run speed before. The proposed air speed buff isn’t meant to make him a strong aerial fighter. It’s more QoL and even with that buff his air speed is still very low ranking. If anything I feel it would distinguish Kirby even more to have him stand as a multijump character who shines most on the ground rather than floating and a ground speed buff would make that more pronounced while being a big help all the while.

Regarding smallest change, there isn’t really any small change you can give Kirby to gracefully boost his viability to a great degree. Like most underpowered characters, his kit is fundamentally strong. It’s just undertuned in many little many little areas that add up. Kirby’s problems aren’t exceptional outside of things like Inhale so naturally the fixes won’t be either.

That said this thread of mine is quite outdated. I have been conversing with others and new patches have come and given me new perspective. Thus I have a new take on helpful fixes but haven’t gotten around to updating to V3 yet. I can assure though it’ll be more streamlined.
 
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