Kirby: Ideal Buffs and Changes V2

TimG57867

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#1
Ok so it's been about 3 months since the game came out and a bit less than that since I first made this thread. First made this thread because I wanted to focus on developing the meta in Discord while having a place to make my wishes known more productively at the same time. In those months, I've learned a lot more about the game, I've helped and conversed a lot with others to push Kirby's meta, and I feel my insight on the character has improved even greater than it was in SSB4. Between this, and the out of left field buffs Kirby got for the first noteworthy balance update, I thus now I have a new outlook on the character and feel a lot of the changes I requested are outdated or not focused enough. That said, I don't want to just throw all that to the wind as it's nice to see how my outlook as changed so I'll leave the old request list here for reference:

V1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w0JWASyW1shQCbz8Y-dCPN5DQQTDiwFdbjv7WjiyeFA/edit?usp=sharing

With that out of the way, time to have a 2nd go at this!

1. Reduce F Throw's FAF (First Actionable Frame) by 5-7

This is a major area where my take on the issue has changed. I used to think the problem with F-Throw was the animation being so high that you would end up on low platforms with your opponent getting off free. However, after messing with it in Frame Counter mode, the real problem wasn't the animation, but the FAF or First Actable Frame. Thanks to a helpful user, we found that it takes 58 frames before Kirby can actually initiate an action out of F Throw. And it's in the last couple frames that Kirby keeps going up just high enough to land without his opponent. As good Smasher knows, a move's animation does not always equate to its lag (take :ultroy:'s Fire Blade for example or :4ganondorf:'s Up Smash). If the FAF was low enough, we'd be able interrupt F Throw's animation and proceed to combo our opponents before we hit a platform if we desired. This buff is better because F Throw's height truly is better for combos. This change would let us keep the animation while also letting us get normal combos beneath low platforms while possible making new ones possible. It kills 3 birds in one stone.

2. Increase Air Speed to .95

Now this is something my perspective hasn't changed on. Make no mistake. With how good Kirby's actual aerials are compared to Jigglypuff's devs really can't afford to give him great air speed. However, with a Bottom 5 air speed value, I am adamant that there's plenty of room to improve to the point where Kirby can get better combos, recover more easily, mixup his landing, edgeguard better, and space his short hop aerials in neutral better. With this relatively low but unique air speed value, Kirby would STILL want to stay on the ground most of the time because unless you got incredible air speed or good range,
approaching from the ground is generally better. This buff would just make Kirby's life easier in just about every other area.

3. Increase Ground Speed to at least 1.8

Now this is one I didn't include in my last request list. The ground speed buff Kirby got in SSB4 was easily one of his best buffs but I always felt it didn't go QUITE far enough and this opinion hasn't changed. I always felt that the sweetspot for Kirby's speed would be running just above the Mario tier of speed. Kirby's clearly meant to play on the ground with his good ground tools. With this game making dash techniques more key than ever, a run speed buff like this would truly help him approach and abuse the dash cancel mechanics better while improving his combos and opening new kill setup opportunities. And just like with the air speed, this is a unique speed value and not even a tremendous one relatively anymore at that.

4. Reduce Up Tilt's FAF by 3-4 frames.

Another new one! But in labbing Kirby's frame advantages more, I now realize just why Up Tilt isn't as good at low percent anymore. You simply don't get enough frame advantage before the foe can jump or air dodge. Not even an Up Tilt B-Air at 0 is true. Assuming they don't want to increase its stun or something, the best thing they can do is cut its endlag by 3-4 more frames. What's cool about this is that not only would vastly improve Kirby's low percent combo game but also give him even better shield pressure options. Up Tilt really doesn't need to have its crazy low BKB again but it should at least give enough frame advantage for consistent low percent combos.

5. Improve Final Cutter's startup and endlag.

Yeah this didn't change. Final Cutter has improved a lot in this game. It has a better rising hitbox, connects better, has a better landing hitbox, can't be teched anymore, projectile lasts a bit longer, and is less laggy. It's the most usable it's been since Brawl but it's just short of being a good move. If its startup was cut Frame 14-15 with a startup movement increase to compensate, got another 5-7 frames of endlag shaved off its 31 FAF, and possibly had its projectile travel just a bit further, it would truly become a good move that would allow Kirby to anti air effectively and control more space while being a better combo tool. It's just usable as is. It just needs a bit more.

6. MASSIVELY Improve Inhale

As one of the main supporters of this move, even I must say it leaves too much to be desired right now. Its grab box ain't that big, its frame data is mediocre, and it seems Copy Ability loss RNG is more inconsistent than ever. And the projectile swallow buff has been almost useless because of the auto swallow's FAF (51 frames! Double of :ultwario:'s for perspective! Inhale is Kirby's defining move and should not be so mediocre. What do they need to do?
  • Improve the startup and endlag just a bit more. Frame 10-12 startup with just a bit less less would be great.
  • Increase the actual grab box's size. It's just too small
  • Make auto swallow much less lag (more in line with Wario) so that it can actually be used to counter projectile spam
  • Above all else, fix the Copy RNG. Either the drop rate needs to be massively reduced, or its mechanic should be changed from a random drop to a damage % threshold. It simply needs to be able to be applied into gameplay more easily.

7. Make D-Air faster and Reduce Landing Lag

This along with F Throw and Up Tilt, is probably hindering Kirby's combo game more than anything. D-Air got the smallest landing lag buff of Kirby's aerials but it clearly needed more. Thanks to knockback changes, its landing hitbox has set advantage across the cast and many characters don't give enough frames to give Kirby consistent followups. (D-Airing a :ultlucina: for instance is basically useless). The startup also continues to a problem. D-Air's spike isn't the strongest but honestly, after mulling it over, that's a super easy compromise for a more rewarding move to land. For D-Air, decrease its startup by 3-4 frames so that it's easier to land but still not free, and more importantly, reduce its landing lag by at least 4 frames. This insures it is at least +6 on the entire cast which is enough a grab and Up Tilt. Also consider improving the landing hit angle a bit. With these changes D-Air would be more rewarding to hit and easier to utilize as right now you basically need autocancels and buffered Turnaround Up Tilts to get the most of it.

8. Buff Stone in every way EXCEPT its Startup

Pre-Patch 2.0 I would have been adamant that Stone would need to come out faster to make it more usable. But Stone now finally getting super armor on startup means a startup increase is totally unnecessary now. At this point, it would be better to improve everything ELSE about it. Improve the heavy armor from 25% to a 30% threshold to make up for the singles multiplier which is exactly what it was in Brawl. Add just a few more frames of superarmor to startup (I think starting at Frame 15 would be sweet. Frame 19 is a bit late. ) Restore its shield break potential as with all the characters that can maul shields in this game, I don't think Stone still being able to wreck a shield is unreasonable. And a little more BKB and/or KBG wouldn't hurt along with improving the cancel time.

9. Buff Up Throw's Power

Months ago I asked for considerable Back Throw and Down Throw improvements but now my stances on them have changed. I'd possible make Back Throw have a bit more KBG with a bit less FAF and increase Down Throw's damage to like 14-15%. But beyond that they don't need massive changes. It's really Up Throw that needs a considerable buff. With rage weaker and ceilings higher, Kirby's Up Throw isn't quite up to snuff anymore. It's not launch SSB4 bad but it could be better. Looking at :ultolimar:, I don't think making it kill about 20-25% sooner would be a massive issue.

10. Decrease Hammer's Charge Time and Make Uncharge Hammer Faster

In my time on Discord we've found surprising utility for Hammer but it could still use love. Namely, it would be great if the number frames needed to get the full charge was reduced. And what would be even greater for fully Uncharged Hammer's swing to made faster. This would improve its offstage stage utility a lot when it comes to both edgeguarding and recovering, just like how it was in Brawl.


11. Improve Up Air's Startup and Endlag and give it a bit more KBG

Up Air is key combo tool but its startup and especially endlag really hurt it along with its low killpower. Decreasing startup by at least 2 frames would improve its combo ability, reducing its mid air FAF by at least 10 frames would make comboing off it a lot easier, and a careful adjustment to either its knockback values would allow it to still combo well at low and mid percent and be a kill move at high percent.

12. Make Forward Air Quicker

This move is great but the startup really holds Kirby back. Simply making it Frame 6 would pretty much solve all its problems along with possibly reducing the mid air lag.

13. Make Neutral Air Quicker and Less Laggy

This move is also really helpful but again it's just too slow and laggy in the air. If it was at least Frame 6 and had another 10-15 frames removed from its endlag, N-Air's utility would skyrocket.

14. Make Up Smash a Frame or Two Faster

Up Smash's frame 12 startup is vastly better than its Frame 14 startup in SSB4 but it's still just a smidge too slow for somone of Kirby's range. Making it quicker by 1 or 2 frames would be lovely for it.

15. Make Down Smash a Bit Stronger

Down Smash is solid but at times it does feel a tad weak. It shouldn't be as strong as F Smash but a bit more knockback would make it a stronger finisher especially as it's Kirby's quickest Smash.


And that about does it Version 2 of my requested changes. I am grateful that with the past few months my insight on the character and the game as whole has improved a lot. I am optimistic about what can be discovered for Kirby yet as is, but I won't lie that he still feels lacking compared to many characters. I don't expect all of this, much less at the same time, but I feel many of these are exactly the kinds of changes Kirby could get to not only make him a better character but also fully retain his playstyle. Look forward to getting more feedback and further revising this as Ultimate develops further!
 
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#2
I completely agree with 2, 7, 8, 9, and 10.
Air Movement speed needs a significant buff for Kirby to get on par with the cast.

Down B used to b really solid in brawl due to its quick get in and out times. It was a solid, pun intended, way to punish jugglers or charging up smashes and had great mix up potential. It needs to start faster.

Nair is ok, greater hit range or greater spin speed would be nice. I have less issue with startup and more issue with him getting to his spinning animation / spin speed once he is spinning.
 
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Swordmaster102

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#3
I like all that you’ve mentioned. It’s probably too far to remove a whole attack though, but I’ve been a fan of the idea of just scrapping his hammer (side b) for a long time. It’s useless outside of a shield break (which will never happen hardly with Kirby), predictable, and people who have the most basic fundamentals of smash can avoid it. Hammer should be replaced with either some other special that can actually be used with a purpose (maybe a range attack. I like the idea of giving him the star rod).
 
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#4
In my opinion for Kirby to be viable he needs

1. Better air speed / jump height

2. An actual kill throw. looking at you Up throw.

3. Reduced lag on swallowing projectiles. When I first heard that Kirby could heal from eating projectiles I thought it would make him more difficult to camp, it turns out if you are dumb enough to even try swallowing a projectile you get run up F smashed from across the stage.

4. Reduce chance of losing copy ability every time you are touched. Seriously this is just annoying, it makes me wonder if Kirby was even tested before being added to ultimate.

Those are the main things, other buffs would be nice (frame data, ground speed, damage buffs, etc.) But I feel like those 4 changes would make Kirby a real character and an actual threat.

As it stands Kirby is a contender for worst in the game and it's pretty sad honestly.
 

*JuriHan*

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#5
Air speed, air speed, air speed... he's too slow!

+ damage on tilts would help too.
 

grizby2

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#6
I agree with all of these.

I remember seeing him place low in early tier lists and thought "he cant be THAT bad right?"

man OH MAN. it is HARD to kill anything with the kirbs now!
hes light AND hits for diddly-squat now... plus hes slow! WHY?! :urg:
I also hate how his inhale can propel an opponents attacks towards you ever faster. I feel like the "catch" ranged should be increased. its his signature move man!

hammer is pretty dang useless, and the reduced shield damage rubs me the wrong way. like.. sakurai.. what even?
 
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#7
Smashes are still very strong and hammer has its ups and downs. against heavies i've managed many shield breaks with it and its a great mind game tool. Speed is def an issue and

INHALE RANGE wtf like give us super armor or increased inhale range. it use to be a great defensive tool now its basically just for getting the copy or occasional ledge gimp
 

Splice

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#8
1. Decrease Forward Throw's height just enough to avoid low platforms
Because of Forward Throws height, we get mixups on some platforms like Lylat where we can get an Usmash on the tilted platforms after we do our Fthrow Fair combo. At low %'s you can Fthrow Ftilt then drop through plat on some platforms and I prefer that to Fair sometimes too coz it's a good angle to end up at. I think we can work on alternative sequences to get followups off the Fthrow because I'm often finding a lot of followups just from reading the DI away with sliding utilt & other cool things. I understand the nuisance though, but I do think you'll get bored of Fthrow Fair one day.

2. Increase air speed to at least .95
This is a good idea because at the moment Kirby gets railed by things like Nikita and it looks like a cruel joke.
But I'm worried it would draw Kirby to get nerfed later, because with a few reads (all at an advantage for Kirby) we have pretty long aerial strings already.
We could probably really mess the game up with too much air speed.

3. Improve Final Cutter all around
Maybe it's just because I'm used to playing the other smash games, but this is quite a high utility B move for recovering because of its rising hitbox, but also it has a FANTASTIC sweetspot if you get it at max ledgesnap range, and at the right timing you can even come down to ledge with it before an opponent can react properly. But it loses to counter pretty hard and you can't really do much about that. Extra height or whatever won't change something like that. This move isn't weak, but it's not OP either. Great combo extender for like hilt spike kill on a high platform after waiting an out an airdodge.

4. Either Cut Up-Air's Startup and FAF or Make it Kill
Yeah buddy spot on. I'd prefer to have a kill move because if Uair was just faster it would have a lot of overlap with Nair because of what they cover and where they kinda hit. You can't string off Uair in this game. Melee Uair is a kill move and its Kirbys only good move in that game, and great fun to use.

5. Reduce F-Air's Startup
I wouldn't mind faster startup but I think it's a really good frame-layout of how it times the three hits of Fair, so as long as only the initial delay is changed it'd be ok. But I also think the move is completely workable how it is and a bit broken. If you fastfall and follow the opponent with your jumps and fastfalls correctly you can 0-death an Ike I'm pretty sure as long as they are at 0% and you start with Fthrow Fair (he can't really afford to airdodge since he needs the height for SideB), and if doesn't work out super reliable it's at least pretty likely you'll follow it correctly. My example isn't just about Ike though; this is already a strong move that can cheese out many characters with the right approach. Also an incredibly incredibly safe kill move for any character to have. It kills pretty reliably at stock cap percents, which is still good and buffed quite a bit at the edge.

6. Improve D-Air's startup and Landing Lag and Improve the Spike
Yeah it would be nice to have Dair's start-up and landing lag improved. I don't want the spike improved because it's good to be forced to get double dair setups or force them out further with a fair/bair first, since we have 5 jumps anyway my friend. Do you really want free kills at 40%? You can get good looking kills at 40% instead, and you should have to; because our character has 5 jumps and doesn't even have to take much risk to go for their INCREDIBLY ACTIVE spike.

7. Improve the Copy Ability RNG
This should have been point #1 and the thread title and the name of the whole character forum.

8. Make N-Air Faster
Yeah 5 or 6f would be a nice change, 3 is getting a bit silly, we're not Luigi.


9. Make Down B Quicker and Improve Shield Damage
Reducing it to 19f would make everyone hate playing against our character, because 10 frames is a lot.
I think it should stay as slow as it is (risky to even use) but it should have really high shield damage or even break shield.
ON a similar note, I also think SideB needs to almost break shield as well.


10. Make D-Throw and/or B-Throw kill better on the ledge
I think Dthrow could have some damage added to it to be a more useful throw, I don't really find it ever gives the best angle so it would be nice if it had enough damage on it to be worth using for the guaranteed percent sometimes.
But I do agree that Kirbys ledge game should be threatening, and imo needs a better killthrow in Bthrow to roundout kirbys current options near the ledge. Especially because at those %'s, you won't set-up for the greatest edgeguards off any of the throws (character dependant!!!)


Dash attack is my man.
 
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#9
Uair i think is fine as it is. It's great for aerial juggling and i'm happy with Bair being our main kill tool. Bair can be transitioned into from Uair very easily so i'd like Uair to stay as is.

========

Uthrow needs more killing power.

========

Air speed at least horizontally would be good. Jigglypuff has low fall speed but high horizontal movement. We could get a bit more love in that bucket at least.

========

I disagree with your comment about DownSpecial. DownSpecial shield damage is fine. Two hits will break shield, isn't that enough? The problem is the minegame potential from getting in and out of brick is gone. You really can only use it for three things:

Gimping recoveries,
Falling from high up to a safe place near the edge of the stage,
Falling on a guaranteed hit like someone charging Usmash

I use to use DownSpecial a lot to mindgame and condition opponents to stop Usmashing.

========

Hammer in the air needs to go back to Brawl Hammer.
Hammer on the ground is FKing fantastic. I've gotten so many kills and shield breaks from this.

========

What about our Neutral B, we should get the option to spit out projectiles we suck up instead of auto-swallowing them.
Like DDD auto-spits these out and its great.
Eat lag is so long we are penalized for using the move. It's ridiculous from a design perspective to make a move have negative return on investment for its primary use.

If neutral special worked more effectively it would really buff Kirby's game against projectile heavy matchups.
 
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Jgod

Smash Cadet
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Oct 4, 2014
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#10
Losing copy off some bum hit needs to go.
Stone needs higher KBG. This would be rather significant.
Ftilt should be 2 or 3% more damage.
D-tilt with 2 or 3 frames less lag.
Imo I'd like faster start-up on FC
D-air to have foot invincibility.

Stone isn't rewarding enough. If it was ending stocks 20% earlier I would be happy.
Meh Kirby's air game is passable. He is 'fast' on the ground, but his specials reward is meh. FC works for what it is, Stone just straight up should give more reward, If anything a stone buff is going to Kirby more of that Niche he's waiting for off-stage that make other character's stand-out. Argument would be him being more polarizing to certain types of recoveries but that's exactly the point when I suggest a KBG buff to stone. Generally, the characters he is going to land stone are, are going to be those that are oppressive to him on the ground. These characters often have easy to follow or linear recoveries.

For the Sheiks, Pikachu's, and Yoshi's it isn't going to be as substantial, but then in the former cases a stable copy, stronger f-tilt and faster-dtilt are going to be more realistic options.
 
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Ez Quinn

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#11
I like all that you’ve mentioned. It’s probably too far to remove a whole attack though, but I’ve been a fan of the idea of just scrapping his hammer (side b) for a long time. It’s useless outside of a shield break (which will never happen hardly with Kirby), predictable, and people who have the most basic fundamentals of smash can avoid it. Hammer should be replaced with either some other special that can actually be used with a purpose (maybe a range attack. I like the idea of giving him the star rod).
I actually enjoy the hammer lol
 

HyperL

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#14
I agree with 1, 4, 7, 8 and 10. The rest I feel are things Kirby should have to deal with.

Instead, I would reduce the lag on all his tilts by 2-5 frames and make the auto-enhale animation cancelable.

You gotta remember that Sakurai has to make sure moves aren't broken in casual play. Any buff to stone's startup, kill power or shield damage just makes it more of a casual destroyer.
 

BuffKirby

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#16
Copy should never be knocked out of kirby unless he is KO'd. Period.

Why put the time and effort into making over 75+ Kirby hats when the move is nearly unusable because of how easy it is to knock the ability out of you.
The developers want Kirby to resemble more of his abilities in Kirby franchise rather than actually focus on his fighting styles. They prefer looks than fighting styles (“He’s balanced already!”).
 
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#17
The developers want Kirby to resemble more of his abilities in Kirby franchise rather than actually focus on his fighting styles. They prefer looks than fighting styles (“He’s balanced already!”).
Pretty sure the devs think Kirby's copy ability makes him OP, which is sad and pathetic. Kirby is on Little Mac's heels for worst fighter.
 

BuffKirby

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#18
I think 64 > Brawl > SSB4 > Melee > SSBU

I genuinely believe while SSBU has so much more positive qualities than Melee, though I think popularity-wise he's going to perform even worse than the Melee incarnation (I think even Little Mac has more support. Just look at Ganon, Zelda, Jigglypuff!).

Hammer Flip = Trash, replace with Star Rod (Where you can charge up and has unlimited range)

Stone = I like it the way it is honestly

Final Cutter = Like it the way it is, just needs more damage and knockback

Inhale = More range and quicker startup.

I'm not sure why they significantly buffed PICHU over Kirby. Either the devs think Kirby is OP or they have 0 competitive knowledge. I'd say both.
Wasn’t there a throw from Kirby in Brawl that could kill opponents at mid-high percents? I feel like this should be reimplemented.
 
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MercuryPenny

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#19
I'm not sure why they significantly buffed PICHU over Kirby.
reimagining pichu as the glassiest cannon in the game was something anyone could come up with, it's the easiest idea to come up with to make him not a joke. kirby needs the same sort of reimagining of his archetype imo.

even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
 
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#20
even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
wtf? This is all wrong.

First of all, kirby still has plenty of low percent combos(How easy they are to do varies) There have been plenty of videos on his combos.


The latter vid is outdated but most of the combos still apply today

And do you seriously expect to believe that after all of those buffs you mentioned(ESPECIALLY the air speed buff) he wouldn't be a better character??? That's bs: Top players like ESAM and Zero have said that he would be infinitely better with faster air speed alone. He would have low percent ground combos, faster air speed to catch up to people and be a better edge guarder at mid-high percents, and with a kill throw(A better up throw, as you mentioned) his kill power(which is honestly fine. Don't know why people say it's bad; he's not Sheik or Squirtle) would be better.

So no, he's not a dysfunctional character, he doesn't even need that many buffs, hell, even without faster air speed, having faster airials would also make him better.

Kirby isn't dysfunctional like the likes of Little Mac. Just looking at Komota at frosbite, even if he didn't go far shows that he could easily be better with the right buffs, hell, you could even watch the few times Captain L used Kirby.

/rant. Sorry if I sounded rude, but I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle at this point. Like I seriously had to deal with someone who thought :4kirby: had the better dash attack, and....no.

Edit: Also this post is kinda sloppy now that I think about it. I was honestly in blind fury when typing this lol
 
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TimG57867

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#21
reimagining pichu as the glassiest cannon in the game was something anyone could come up with, it's the easiest idea to come up with to make him not a joke. kirby needs the same sort of reimagining of his archetype imo.

even if you gave kirby tons of buffs - better up tilt, better f-throw, better up-throw, better fair, no rng copy ability loss, slightly better air speed, better hitboxes (within reason) - he'd still be terrible. they took away his combo game (the thing that defined his entire gameplan in smash 4, and still didn't get him very far) and gave him nothing in return. he's a dysfunctional character.
You basically listed off all the things Kirby would need (along with a better N-Air and Up-Air among other potential fixes) to become a bonafide high tier character. LOL

An Up Tilt with less endlag would basically fix his entire low percent combo issues atm when he can't get a grab and give him sweet shield pressure.

F Throw getting its endlag reduced with solve the BF issue and make its followups even better.

F-Air being faster would improve his best kill setup, edgeguarding, and make a sweet OOS option.

No Copy Ability Loss on its own would solidify Kirby as a low mid tier at worst. So many threatening characters get a run for their money when he as their power including deadly threats like :ultolimar: and :ultgreninja:

Better air speed would amp his edgeguarding, spacing, combos, and help him recover and avoid juggles better.

And improved hitboxes on moves like Up Smash would make them nasty.

And that's all BEFORE the changes you could make to his N-Air, D-Air, Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone.

And it also happens that most of this stuff is things the devs never really did in SSB4 so it isn't suprising :4kirby: faltered. All the patches did was giving him back the barest essentials he lost from Brawl and didn't even restore all of them. But this is a new game now and the devs are trying new stuff (Super Armor on Stone. Wow). So the sky's the limit for what can happen this time. I'll develop and push Kirby regardless but it's silly to think Kirby couldn't be a terror with the right fixes.

Btw, I updated this thread Version 2.
 
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#22
They need to lower the knockback dealt by Kirby's f-throw so people don't land on the platforms on battlefield after being thrown. Kirby has half of the combo options that he does on battlefield and other platforms.

Making his airspeed faster and improving his aerial frame data would really improve his aerial combo game , edgeguarding, OOS options, and recovery.
 

BuffKirby

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#23
You basically listed off all the things Kirby would need (along with a better N-Air and Up-Air among other potential fixes) to become a bonafide high tier character. LOL

An Up Tilt with less endlag would basically fix his entire low percent combo issues atm when he can't get a grab and give him sweet shield pressure.

F Throw getting its endlag reduced with solve the BF issue and make its followups even better.

F-Air being faster would improve his best kill setup, edgeguarding, and make a sweet OOS option.

No Copy Ability Loss on its own would solidify Kirby as a low mid tier at worst. So many threatening characters get a run for their money when he as their power including deadly threats like :ultolimar: and :ultgreninja:

Better air speed would amp his edgeguarding, spacing, combos, and help him recover and avoid juggles better.

And improved hitboxes on moves like Up Smash would make them nasty.

And that's all BEFORE the changes you could make to his N-Air, D-Air, Final Cutter, Hammer, and Stone.

And it also happens that most of this stuff is things the devs never really did in SSB4 so it isn't suprising :4kirby: faltered. All the patches did was giving him back the barest essentials he lost from Brawl and didn't even restore all of them. But this is a new game now and the devs are trying new stuff (Super Armor on Stone. Wow). So the sky's the limit for what can happen this time. I'll develop and push Kirby regardless but it's silly to think Kirby couldn't be a terror with the right fixes.

Btw, I updated this thread Version 2.

Or just replace hammer flip with star rod. Kind of like Samus’ charge shots. (This isn’t going to happen, but would be interesting and more beneficial)
Maybe give Kirby a speed boost (Pikachu speed, in general he is a very fast character). Maybe give him a 0.97 in air speed.
Maybe make Stone startup much more faster (Not like 40 frames, reduce it to 24 or something).
 
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#24
Or just replace hammer flip with star rod. Kind of like Samus’ charge shots. (This isn’t going to happen, but would be interesting and more beneficial)
Maybe give Kirby a speed boost (Pikachu speed, in general he is a very fast character). Maybe give him a 0.97 in air speed.
Maybe make Stone startup much more faster (Not like 40 frames, reduce it to 24 or something).
Maybe not Star Rod specifically, but at least some disjointed/projectile attack. Kirby's lightweight brawler playstyle isn't super beneficial unless he has a disjoint or a faster airspeed.
 

MercuryPenny

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#25
yeah i didn't really think very hard about how much those buffs would really do lol. definitely wouldn't say they'd make him high tier though, dead center of mid at best imo
 

TimG57867

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#28
yeah i didn't really think very hard about how much those buffs would really do lol. definitely wouldn't say they'd make him high tier though, dead center of mid at best imo
More like at minimum. The simplistic appearance of Kirby's kit completely contrasts and betrays just how lethal it could be with the right values. Completely discounting Inhale, the right spec tuneups would catapult Kirby's advantage state to being one of the most potent in the game. He has so many moves that lead to into good conversions as is but the awkward frame data on a lot of them hold them back. Just fixing F Throw and buffing Up Tilt would already make both the potency and ease of his combos shoot up at a wide variety of percents while also opening new kill confirms. He has a bunch of neat mid percent combos being found as is but struggles to consistently put on a lot of damage from 0/super low percent unless he can get a grab with good stage positioning. Making F Throw and Up Tilt quicker on the endlag would completely patch up these issues and make his neutral wins so much more meaningful.

F-Air is unequivocally Kirby's best move right now and would be top tier move in the game as a whole if not for that pesky Frame 10 startup. Coming out on Frame 6 would greatly improve his approach options, out of shield options, combos, edgeguards, and make his best kill confirms even easier to land. And a meaningful air speed increase would amplify the benefits of these changes.

But the thing that would really knock it home is the accursed Copy RNG mechanic being removed. Kirby's Copy Abilities massively improve over 75% of his matchups and have so much utility from giving him great zone options to new kill confirms to strong edgeguarding tools and so much more. But you don't see Kirbies abuse it to the fullest simply because it could be lost at any moment. Get rid of that and you've finally turned Inhale into the key X factor needed to push a character from "decent" to great. At best I expect the devs to change how abilities can be lost or greatly improve the drop rate down the line. But if they by some crazy chance were to get rid of that dreadful mechanic it would on its own vastly improve his matchup spread as his copy abilities often give him many of the things he sorely lacks in his base kit as it's currently implemented.

You shouldn't underestimate Kirby's innate tools. With Prodigy getting 13th at Genesis and helping to make a good high tier case for :ultmario: and Komota managing to get 65th at Frostbite with Kirby in his current underpowered state, I see no reason Kirby couldn't perform similar if his moveset got the right changes. At the cost of some aerial acrobatics, better durability, spammable Smashes, FLUDD. and off the top cheese, you'd have a character with multiple jumps, a very strong ground game, extremely adaptable combos, and a special command grab that would give him a leg up in many matchups in ways a lot of his stubby cohorts could only dream of.

I'm especially certain my proposed fixes would do the job.
 
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BuffKirby

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#29
More like at minimum. The simplistic appearance of Kirby's kit completely contrasts and betrays just how lethal it could be with the right values. Completely discounting Inhale, the right spec tuneups would catapult Kirby's advantage state to being one of the most potent in the game. He has so many moves that lead to into good conversions as is but the awkward frame data on a lot of them hold them back. Just fixing F Throw and buffing Up Tilt would already make both the potency and ease of his combos shoot up at a wide variety of percents while also opening new kill confirms. He has a bunch of neat mid percent combos being found as is but struggles to consistently put on a lot of damage from 0/super low percent unless he can get a grab with good stage positioning. Making F Throw and Up Tilt quicker on the endlag would completely patch up these issues and make his neutral wins so much more meaningful.

F-Air is unequivocally Kirby's best move right now and would be top tier move in the game as a whole if not for that pesky Frame 10 startup. Coming out on Frame 6 would greatly improve his approach options, out of shield options, combos, edgeguards, and make his best kill confirms even easier to land. And a meaningful air speed increase would amplify the benefits of these changes.

But the thing that would really knock it home is the accursed Copy RNG mechanic being removed. Kirby's Copy Abilities massively improve over 75% of his matchups and have so much utility from giving him great zone options to new kill confirms to strong edgeguarding tools and so much more. But you don't see Kirbies abuse it to the fullest simply because it could be lost at any moment. Get rid of that and you've finally turned Inhale into the key X factor needed to push a character from "decent" to great. At best I expect the devs to change how abilities can be lost or greatly improve the drop rate down the line. But if they by some crazy chance were to get rid of that dreadful mechanic it would on its own vastly improve his matchup spread as his copy abilities often give him many of the things he sorely lacks in his base kit as it's currently implemented.

You shouldn't underestimate Kirby's innate tools. With Prodigy getting 13th at Genesis and helping to make a good high tier case for :ultmario: and Komota managing to get 65th at Frostbite with Kirby in his current underpowered state, I see no reason Kirby couldn't perform similar if his moveset got the right changes. At the cost of some aerial acrobatics, better durability, spammable Smashes, FLUDD. and off the top cheese, you'd have a character with multiple jumps, a very strong ground game, extremely adaptable combos, and a special command grab that would give him a leg up in many matchups in ways a lot of his stubby cohorts could only dream of.

I'm especially certain my proposed fixes would do the job.
That's true all of these qualities would make Kirby much better, but how would we get these buffs if the developers aren't aware of these?
There's three problems (Sorry for raining on the parade)

1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"

2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.

3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).

My bad if my rant goes off the mark.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#30
1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"
Entirely possible. Remember that Sakurai has stated before that he avoids representing/focusing on Kirby too much so it doesn't look like he's biased towards his own series. Kirby was the 2nd best in Smash 64 and has been a low tier since then, I'd reckon the devs know he's seen as bad at this point but are worried about buffing him to avoid accusations of bias.
2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.
Also likely. It could simply be that the devs think Kirby's inhale and recovery make him OP and that having a low damage output, piss poor airspeed and unreliable KO options balance that out. Sakurai even said that the pool the win/losses from online play and that overall the win/lose ratio for every fighter is about the same (with an error margin of about 10% IIRC). To them it could seem like every fighter is almost perfectly balanced and not in need of buffs.
3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).
Highly unlikely IMO. I don't think the devs are so heartless that they would intentionally nerf a fighter in response to people asking for buffs (although Kirby was heavily nerfed from Smash 4). That would simply be counterintuative; people would ask for even more buffs. I've seen Isaac and Shadow fans argue that Sakurai and the devs were deliberately trolling them by revealing those two as AT's last and their argument makes no sense.

Although I agree with you that the devs may have been (obviously nothing can be confirmed) biased for some fighters when buffing them.
 

TimG57867

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#31
That's true all of these qualities would make Kirby much better, but how would we get these buffs if the developers aren't aware of these?
There's three problems (Sorry for raining on the parade)

1. Developers worry a "Sakurai Bias!" revolt would come from anti-Kirby people.
This is probably the reason I'm thinking of (but least likely). I mean, Sakurai already released Kirby, D3, and Meta Knight. He even made Kirby the star of World of Light. Though nothing wrong's going to happen if the buffs you pointed out were going to be implemented, other wet blankets might want to be like "Nerf Kirby pls! Sakurai bias!"

2. Developers aren't aware of this.
The reason that I believe is the most logical. They think that Kirby is OP, reflecting on Kirby canon and implementing less impressive qualities (slow air speed, weak finishers, slow startups, and, uh... specials...) to compensate Kirby's "feats". "But that would make him balanced, look at the game feats!" Either they haven't been paying much attention or they don't know how Kirby really works.

3. Developers are aware of this, and they don't give a crap about it/they have a bias towards other characters.
Where they're tired of fans (probably because of Waluigi) and they just want to do stuff on their own. After all, everybody's different. Developers may buff characters (say Ganondorf, Pichu, Pikachu, Wario) more significantly than other people. They don't like the puffball for some reason, and in response to fans desiring listed buffs, they'll do the exact opposite and nerf him (or, buff minor things that are way off the actual issue).

My bad if my rant goes off the mark.
It’s far too early to be concerned with issues like this. Not many characters got drastic buffs in 2.0 and historically the devs don’t always fix things immediately. In SSB4 they didn’t fix F Throw until July 2015 which was more than 9 months after release of the 3DS version. It can take time before they finally get around to something even when the issue is widely known. Just look at SSB4 Mewtwo.

Regarding Sakurai bias I think people blow it WAY out of proportion. The only time it was blatantly in effect was Melee. Since then Kirby hasn’t gotten the shaft anymore than lots of other unlucky characters. Not only that but Sakurai doesn’t even help with balancing anymore so he’s not a great scapegoat anymore. Plus Kirby got lots of direct buffs going into the game which technically we’ll exceed the nerfs in quantity. And even with the nerfs it’s clear the devs intended for them to balance Kirby out rather than outright make him worse. This happens with many characters and issues like this are likely to be touched on over time as their data becomes more substantial.

And concern number 3 is obviously invalid as Kirby was one of the few characters to get meaningful buffs in 2.0. The buffs his F Tilt got alone blow his early SSB4 buffs out of the water so any fear of the devs out to make Kirby bad are totally unfounded. Not only that but his Stone buff was completely unlike anything he ever got in SSB4 so there’s precedent for further experimental changes. It’s clear the devs aren’t going to do exactly what they did last time. They’re taking a new approach and we still don’t have a clear picture of it.

All in all those these are rather silly things to be worked up over at this time. If things stay exactly like this a year from now, then sure something is definitely wrong. But this early on and especially a month ahead of another patch, it’s really not worth fretting over this stuff. Just bring up these issues in various places whenever possible and just focus on improving as is. Things like this are out of our control and can take time.
 
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A-money2121

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#32
I always thought that giving down-b a meteor hitbox during the move's first few frames would be pretty nice - kinda like Bowser's down air, for reference. It would, I think, improve it's edge guarding capabilities, and make it a little bit more threatening over all. Nonetheless, I really agree with all these proposed changes. I would mainly prioritize in giving him more air speed, reduced lag on u-air so that it could string with other aerials, making hammer useful, and of all things, buffing his inhale. I really don't understand how inhale and copy, being Kirby's main gimmick and ability, is so hard to utilize effectively. And if I'm even LUCKY enough to copy an enemy's ability, I lose it two hits later. Some of these copy abilities can be pivotal in a match-up - but considering the disadvantageous inhale move, and the common likelihood of loosing a copied ability, it has rendered itself useless. I honestly have no idea why Sakurai's balance team was satisfied with this. Above all, I'm totally down for an increase in inhale's grab box, less start-up, and reducing the probability of loosing a copied ability - as well as the aforementioned changes addressed above.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#33
I feel that if anything, air speed is among the biggest offenders. Why is Kirby still plagued with such an awful air speed value, while Meta Knight is blessed with an air speed value that's more decent?

I get that Kirby doesn't move all that fast while flying in his games, and yet, look at Yoshi. In Yoshi's games, he actually moves slow while flutter jumping, but is blessed with the best air speed (surpassing even Jigglypuff, whom I feel should've been #1) of any fighter right now.

While TimG57867 TimG57867 suggested to raise Kirby's air speed to 0.95, that's barely better than King K. Rool's predicament, and may not be enough for someone whose up special hardly does anything to help with his horizontal movement. Maybe increase Kirby's air speed to around 1.1? Debatable for some, but could be a positive step in helping Kirby become more viable.

On the other hand, a better aerial approach could lead to new issues, especially when you look at Peach; if Peach is given better air speed, that could result in unwanted scenarios if you don't do any mobility and/or moveset adjustments for all the other fighters.
 

TimG57867

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#34
I feel that if anything, air speed is among the biggest offenders. Why is Kirby still plagued with such an awful air speed value, while Meta Knight is blessed with an air speed value that's more decent?

I get that Kirby doesn't move all that fast while flying in his games, and yet, look at Yoshi. In Yoshi's games, he actually moves slow while flutter jumping, but is blessed with the best air speed (surpassing even Jigglypuff, whom I feel should've been #1) of any fighter right now.

While TimG57867 TimG57867 suggested to raise Kirby's air speed to 0.95, that's barely better than King K. Rool's predicament, and may not be enough for someone whose up special hardly does anything to help with his horizontal movement. Maybe increase Kirby's air speed to around 1.1? Debatable for some, but could be a positive step in helping Kirby become more viable.

On the other hand, a better aerial approach could lead to new issues, especially when you look at Peach; if Peach is given better air speed, that could result in unwanted scenarios if you don't do any mobility and/or moveset adjustments for all the other fighters.
The thing you need to keep in mind is air acceleration. K Rool’s air acceleration is like bottom 15 so he can’t make much of his air speed. Kirby’s air acceleration on the other hand is Top 20 and tied at 15th. This means any increase to his air speed will have a far more magnified affect, especially since he’s floaty and can stay in the air longer. This is why I suggested .95. It’s a substantial increase from .84 but not so much that it will likely cause unfavorable ramifications that would require rebalancing of Moves like F-Air.

To put it in perspective, .958 is about the value Ness had in SSB4 and he was renowned for his air agility. While the air speed value wasn’t super high, Ness’s incredible air acceleration let him get a ton out of it. An air speed buff will help Kirby but it’s key not to make it TOO good.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#35
The thing you need to keep in mind is air acceleration. K Rool’s air acceleration is like bottom 15 so he can’t make much of his air speed. Kirby’s air acceleration on the other hand is Top 20 and tied at 15th. This means any increase to his air speed will have a far more magnified affect, especially since he’s floaty and can stay in the air longer. This is why I suggested .95. It’s a substantial increase from .84 but not so much that it will likely cause unfavorable ramifications that would require rebalancing of Moves like F-Air.

To put it in perspective, .958 is about the value Ness had in SSB4 and he was renowned for his air agility. While the air speed value wasn’t super high, Ness’s incredible air acceleration let him get a ton out of it. An air speed buff will help Kirby but it’s key not to make it TOO good.
Still, you have to ask why Meta Knight's air speed is better. He already has more diverse recovery options than Kirby, but I guess being a faster faller (especially when combined with his high gravity value) could explain his faster air speed.

And then there's Jigglypuff, whose air acceleration is ranked among the best, has very good air speed, AND it's the slowest faller of the bunch.
 

TimG57867

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#36
Still, you have to ask why Meta Knight's air speed is better. He already has more diverse recovery options than Kirby, but I guess being a faster faller (especially when combined with his high gravity value) could explain his faster air speed.

And then there's Jigglypuff, whose air acceleration is ranked among the best, has very good air speed, AND it's the slowest faller of the bunch.
You do have to look at the other traits too. Yeah Meta Knight has way more air speed but as you said this is dialed back by his gravity and fall speed along with his mediocre air acceleration.

As for Puff, they clearly designed her around those specs. Her aerials generally have less reach than Kirby outside of her B-Air, her F-Air is a single hit attack, and above all they made sure she has no grab game and garbage ground game.

I actually sometimes wonder what it would be like if, assuming they've decided they would never increase air speed, they instead boosted Kirby’s run speed again. He now has a solid initial dash in this game and Ultimate’s mechanics would let him shine more than ever with more run speed seeing how good his ground moves are and I imagine a run speed buff is much less likely to break Kirby. Hence why I included it.

In any case, they’ll probably never make Kirby’s air speed outright GOOD and with the right fixes they don’t truly have to. I do believe they have room to improve it without breaking Kirby though and it would make spacing and recovery a lot easier for him. It’s a delicate balance to walk though.
 
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BuffKirby

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#37
So, watching some locals/regionals play, I'd say magnify dash attack to kill at around 140% (at the center of Final Destination), Make up throw kill at 130% (again, center of final destination), and probably make the damage output to tilts increased by 0.8%. A lot of times Kirby "almost" finishes the opponent, but opponents have enough time to turn around the stock and likely the game. I'd say make Kirby more destructive on damage output, but don't do much to his knockback. I think his combo playstyle, while not outstanding, is managable for me for now. Kirby has feats of breaking planets in Megaton Punch.

So why not give the pink puffball more muscle: damage output!
*pumps hand in the air*
 
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