Kirby a Zamus counter?

[The Great Leon]

So this past weekend I drove down to Orange and we packed up the wii for the Chapman III Melee/Brawl tournament. Straight to the point: my second match is against a Kirby. Apparently this guy Dodger mained Kirby in Melee. Kirby was a joke back then, he has to be a joke now, right? Wrong. I got wrecked hardcore.

Now many of you who have played Brawl have probably noticed that character size is much more prominent than in Melee. Lots of people are small and hard to hit. Kirby comes up to, like, Zamus' waist, so you'll have to adapt to the fact that you have a small target. Not only that, but Kirby's crouch brings him so low to the ground that all of your attacks are going to miss.

List of moves that hit a crouching Kirby: D Tilt, D Smash, Forward B. That's pretty much it.

Important moves that miss a crouching Kirby: Dash Attack (a personal favorite,) and your Grab.

Now I'm sure that X move will hit if Y circumstance is met, but with my limited knowledge of the game, and my particular playstyle, it was bad news bears. A friend of mine who was watching the match said that if Kirby tried to D Tilt, his hitbox would get extended upwards and I could hit him. I do not believe this to be the case. I should've used D Tilt as my only move, but I didn't. That could've helped to an extent. D Smash comes out kind of slow. Forward B is easy to see coming (its slow and what else would we do at that range?) and Kirby can just shield it. Not being able to grab at all is a lot worse than it sounds, and it sounds bad.

Either Kirby has **** quick aerials, or I'm pushing buttons slower than I need to be, OR Zamus has horrible priority (probably the first two), but I was getting beat out in the air too. There was nothing I could do, having gone into the match expecting it to be a joke, having never practiced against a Kirby, and having to change my playstyle all of a sudden before the game is even out (lol). Sure I'm not the best player, I would hardly call myself good, but Kirby > Zamus. We went home later and I suck hardy with Kirby, but anyone who played Zamus was immediatley counterpicked, and no one I played would stop griping about how annoying it is. I'm looking into ways to punish Kirby, but be aware when the matchup comes up. Only D Tilt, or pick another character. -__-

 

[ShardZ]

List of moves that hit a crouching Kirby: D Tilt, D Smash, Forward B. That's pretty much it.

Important moves that miss a crouching Kirby: Dash Attack (a personal favorite,) and your Grab.

d.tilt is quick and leads into followups/combos, d.smash leads into her grab into further pwnage or f.B (and it's not THAT hard to land, just be careful on where you place it), f.B is excellent for killing. dash attack isn't that great of a move anyway imo. grab whiffing kinda sucks, but he can't shield and crouch at the same time.

so basically I'm wondering.. what's the problem? ZSS outranged kirby all over the place, so why are you rushing in with dash attacks rather than letting him come to you? I'm willing to bet she can frustrate kirby as much as he frustrates her. I'm not too sure about air to air though - properly placed uairs seem very effective in general, and d.B's built-in kick has exceptional priority. I have to admit this is mostly theory fighting though, as I haven't played vs kirby much and I don't know of any decent vids of the matchup (if there's any at all ;.

oh, also.. wouldn't f.smash hit a crouching kirby? I realize it's not an incredible move, but at the same time it shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

This is the same problem I ran into with pikachu (except he has projectiles) ... try Samus ... she *****

I found stun gunning and play smart are hugely important. Your spacing must be perfect learn your enemy's laggy moves and over b the heck out of them.

 

[ShardZ]

hm, same deal with pikachu? the thing that bugged me the most vs him was the stun gun whiffing over his head when he's STANDING. -_- I'm kinda concerned about pikachu in general actually, he seems really really freaking strong.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

yea I started a thread about him and people seemed to think I was kinda weird but yea ... that rat is good this time ... you can take him in the air but only just barely (mainly because he kills you on the ground).

 

[ph00tbag]

So use Dtilt and Plasma Whip a bit more. Dtilt will set up for combos, and Plasma Whip will give you spacing/kill moves.

Even better: if he crouches predictably, next time just time a Dsmash to get the grabs off.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

diminishing returns makes spamming plasma whip a bad idea and with kirby and the rat ... they are just too small to hit except at the end and the plasma whip is kinda too laggy to use and miss with against them

Predicting them is good and yea - grab combos are good way too go ... have to train myself to get use to that ****ed laggy grab she has.

 

[ph00tbag]

diminishing returns makes spamming plasma whip a bad idea and with kirby and the rat ... they are just too small to hit except at the end and the plasma whip is kinda too laggy to use and miss with against them

Predicting them is good and yea - grab combos are good way too go ... have to train myself to get use to that ****ed laggy grab she has.

Plasma Whip isn't Zamus' only kill move. Besides, against most other characters, you'll still find yourself using it for spacing, or covering a retreat, because it's useful there, too. You want a high priority move to deal with the fact that Zamus has trouble getting past a lot of characters. Furthermore, it's not really a move you work into combos, so if you can connect with a dtilt or a grab, then you're probably going to be using a slew of different moves that will connect before you bring out Plasma Whip again.

It's also still good for edgeguarding.

 

[The Great Leon]

Ugh, I just wrote so much. **** wiinternet. no copy/paste is stupid. heres a dumbed down version of what i already wrote.

Basically, Kirby will be crouching all the time. If you go to attack he can tap R to bring up a shield/whatever. You have 3 methods of attack, and all 3 are very predictable. If you're close he'll know you will D Tilt/D Smash. If you're far away, he'll be watching for a Forward B. Being predictable = being punished. Even if you play a super campy game with Neutral B he can still evade you. I forget the rest, but Kirby won't jump or stop crouching because it will beat you. I'm just letting you know do you can be prepared. Sorry. Maybe shield cancel a dash and jump cancel a d tilt. all i know is that you have to move slowly (running is bad) and you're stupidly predictable. Brawl kind of relies on grabbing for the whole A > B > C > D > A... concept. Crouching, however, really only leaves you with A. (( Good discussion though, I'm sure its possible to easily beat a Kirby, I just wasn't ready for the task. My bad.

 

[ShardZ]

all i know is that you have to move slowly (running is bad)

interesting you made that comment actually, I remember Ankoku saying he felt like walking >>> dashing in this game in general (and foxtrot really isn't all that, especially with the chance to trip) and I think he was onto something there, especially for a char like ZSS.
Again though, it might be worth trying to play keepaway to frustrate the kirby player. Hopefully that'd open up some good opportunities to land a d.smash.. and I've noticed that every time someone eats d.smash -> grab it makes them even angrier. ^_^

Just throwing out ideas though. If I get the chance to play a decent kirby I'll tell them all about the crouching shenanigans so I can experience just how annoying it is for myself.

 

[ph00tbag]

Ugh, I just wrote so much. **** wiinternet. no copy/paste is stupid. heres a dumbed down version of what i already wrote.

Basically, Kirby will be crouching all the time. If you go to attack he can tap R to bring up a shield/whatever. You have 3 methods of attack, and all 3 are very predictable. If you're close he'll know you will D Tilt/D Smash. If you're far away, he'll be watching for a Forward B. Being predictable = being punished. Even if you play a super campy game with Neutral B he can still evade you. I forget the rest, but Kirby won't jump or stop crouching because it will beat you. I'm just letting you know do you can be prepared. Sorry. Maybe shield cancel a dash and jump cancel a d tilt. all i know is that you have to move slowly (running is bad) and you're stupidly predictable. Brawl kind of relies on grabbing for the whole A > B > C > D > A... concept. Crouching, however, really only leaves you with A. (( Good discussion though, I'm sure its possible to easily beat a Kirby, I just wasn't ready for the task. My bad.

If all the kirby does is crouch, he's being predictable, so just find out his pattern and abuse it.

Remember to space Plasma Wire. Diminishing returns don't apply if you whiff or hit a shield. At the very least, the threat of a big hit with a lot of damage will make him think twice about ducking.

 

[The Great Leon]

Maybe walking will be a big part of the game. Speaking of keepaway, it was the ****tiest campfest you've ever seen. I didn't know what to do so I camped him like there was no tomorrow. I couldn't adapt, and I deserved to lose.

Even if Kirby is being predictable, there is little you can do to punish him. I know he's just going to crouch. The only approaches you have are close (predictable) melee attacks, and Forward B. I tried relying on Forward B, but it got shielded a lot. :/ It is a scary move though.

 

[Naybewon]

ZSS has some of the lowest priority in the entire game. I've been playing her since my friend got his copy of Brawl (I practically live at his house now :D!! hehe) and if ZSS attacks at the same time ANYONE else does, she's going to lose.

Also, Metaknight and other small, fast characters are VERY hard for ZSS to hit, not to mention kill. She has mostly a long-range offensive with only a few good short-range combos (like dash>neutral A)

 

[Lord Viper]

Oh ****, you went against Dodger? He's one of the well know Kirby main's right now.

 

[BANSHI]

i've played some kirbys with zss over wifi and i didnt have much of a problem, maybe you just need more practice

the only people i would say i have more trouble against is characters who can reflect, but i just use neutral B more cautiously

 

[SuperSmashSisters]

I'm not looking forward to that

 

[The Great Leon]

I played Dodger again this weekend (not a tourney match, but...) and I won. I knew to watch out for him crouching and it was not nearly as big of a deal as I made it out to be. Just keep that in mind when you play a Kirby so you won't get wrecked for having a limited knowledge of the game ^-^

 

[.kR0]

Small characters are a pain to play against, no matter who you use.
Just space right and it shouldn't be too much of a problem against a Kirby.

Olimar is seriously a hard match-up though. Much harder than Kirby at least.