Kirby: a Top Tier perspective

[t!MmY]

This article is an examination of Kirby from the 'Top Tier perspective'; that is to say, analyzing Kirby's move-set, comparing it relative to the characters generally considered Top Tier, and then giving my opinion on how and where Kirby could be buffed to help push him into Top Tier without resulting in a Broken Tier character or (worse yet) a 'Brain-dead' character.

I know there are a lot of people out there that are interested in hearing my thoughts on this in light of the recently published frame data from www.kuroganehammer.com. I would like to say that even though I have years of competitive Kirby experience, that these views are still my own views and not everyone may agree with them. In fact, I welcome disagreements. I see disagreements as a chance to see things from another's point of view and a chance to learn.

(Also, if any Nintendo / Sora / Bandai Namco employees read through these threads to glean from the community how best to balance Kirby, then this is as good a place as any to help them out).

With that out of the way, let us get started:

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Kirby's Characteristics Value

There are specific characteristics that all characters share, but the value of these characteristics vary among the cast. For the most part I'll be talking about characteristics that play a vital role in competitive play, as a matter of course, such as Weight, Run Speed, etc. Other traits will be put aside.

Since these characteristics affect in-game consequences (such as whether or not you are KO'd by a given attack) they hold value to the competitive gamer. As such, each character could be seen as having an intrinsic total value based on these characteristics.

While it would make sense that if a character were lacking in one or more characteristics he or she might have a strong value in another characteristic. For instance a character with a low Weight might have higher speed. This is not necessarily the case with Kirby.

Kirby is not just ranked low relative to these five characters, he is ranked low relative to the entire cast. Of the 53 characters in version 1.1.2: Kirby ranks 50th in Weight, 39th in Run Speed, 41st in Walk Speed, 52nd in Air Speed, 52nd in Fall Speed, and 52nd in Fast Fall Speed. (Air Acceleration chart was not available, but for reference: Ness has an Air Acceleration of 0.09 and Dedede has an Air Acceleration of 0.04).

Many Kirby players clamor for an increase in Air Speed, and while I may not be entirely opposed to such a change, I feel that it may push past the character concept. Kirby floats, but he doesn't soar. Instead, an improved ground acceleration may be preferable which could help him burst forward to help with his approach. Another option would be to improve his Dodge (Roll) speed/distance which would let him dance around his opponent better while looking for openings.

Moveset Analysis & Comparison
Speaking from experience, Kirby generally has a poor Risk vs Reward payout in his moveset. His 'good' moves are small in number: Strong Up (U-tilt), Strong Down (D-tilt), and Grab, as well as some arguably decent moves found with Back Air (B-air), and Standard Attack (Jab). His Down Air (D-air) also has a good Reward, but at a disproportionate Risk ratio since it takes 17 frames of start-up and leaves Kirby wide open if it misses.

To bring Kirby more in line with the 'Top Tiers' he needs a rebalancing of his Risk vs Reward. Preferably a higher Reward payout for successfully getting in close and going toe-to-toe with other Top Tiers. The 'Risk' factor will only be modified lightly and only for those moves that truly have a notably poor Risk factor.

Let's take a look at these moves one by one.

Strong Up (U-tilt)
Modify the Damage and/or the Knockback so that this move could threaten to combo into KO's at higher percents. For instance: U-tilt into B-air unless the opponent Air Dodges. This should also help reduce the number of juggles Kirby gets on some characters (like Fox) but makes it easier to combo from U-tilt into other attacks. Combos off of U-tilt should be 'bread-and-butter' easy.

Strong Down (D-tilt)
Reduce the Knockback (Base Knockback) of D-tilt so that if and when an opponent trips, Kirby can combo into a guaranteed Smash Attack. If that's too much to ask for, then modify Dash Attack so that a D-tilt trip into Dash Attack is worthwhile, even if it's something simple as beefing up the Dash Attack to KO at 130% to 150%.

Grabs & Throws
Change the angle of Up Throw to send opponents forward, so that it can KO off the side similar to how Back Throw KOs, except in the opposite direction.

Forward Air (F-air)
Make this hit on Frame 6 and give it an Auto Cancel (no additional landing lag) after a Short Hop with a Fast Fall (see Diddy Kong's Forward Air as an example). This will help Kirby with approaching, and the ability to keep up with fast opponents. One more thing: the 1st hit of the F-air should all have a vertical launch, not just the tip of his toes.

Down Air (D-air)
I would consider making this hit a little more quickly, perhaps reduce it from frame 18 to frame 12 instead.

Standard Air (N-air)
Reduce the start-up so N-air hits on frame 6. Change the duration of this attack back to how it was in Melee (able to act on frame 50).

Up Smash (U-Smash)
Be more lenient on where this attack has to land to get the full-strength hit. There should only be two 'strengths' of this hit: the front swing (full power) and the dropping back swing (weak hit). No additional 'weaker front swing' and 'weaker back swing' of this.

Down Special (Stone)
This should at least have Armor frames while starting up.

Up Special (Final Cutter)
Personally I would be fine if this was changed to let Kirby grab the ledge while facing away from the stage.

Forward Special (Hammer)
Turning around on the ground while charging the Hammer could be faster. I would also consider giving Kirby an aerial momentum shift like he had in Brawl when using the Hammer in the air.

Standard Special (Inhale/Copy)
Allow Kirby to Copy/Shoot immediately so that it's one fluid action. He sits vulnerable for far too long otherwise.

Conclusion
I believe these changes, while they may seem minor, can have profound effects. In fact, even the most minor of changes can make a big difference and these changes I outlined above are more than just cosmetic. I reworked Kirby in Brawl using Project Smash Attack (PSA) and have many hours of experience in this field under my belt. These changes could make Kirby Top Tier in Smash 4, and they would also require much playtesting to make sure nothing unexpected resulted from it.

If Kirby needs further buffs from what I listed above they could always be implemented later. For now, these seem to be the most important ones.

 

[TimG57867]

Great job! Only thing I'd add is cutting Up and Down Smash's startup and significantly reducing Final Cutter's startup to frame 4-8. Twenty Three frames of startup is just...lol. A range increase on the projectile would be much appreciated too. This would greatly improve his stage presence if you ask me.

EDIT: I also think Up Throw would kill better if it was angled more vertically, did 11-12%, and had little more base knockback. This way it'd be stronger, harder to DI, and would be able to kill from anywhere on the stage.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

What about a better kill throw? If we had that.....God things would be noticeably easier.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think kirby would be top tier if his nair fair and uair weren't all 10 frames. Nair should be 4 fair 7 and uair 6. Dair ahould have less start up also same with usmash.

 

[t!MmY]

Great job! Only thing I'd add is cutting Up and Down Smash's startup and significantly reducing Final Cutter's startup to frame 4-8. Twenty Three frames of startup is just...lol. A range increase on the projectile would be much appreciated too. This would greatly improve his stage presence if you ask me.

EDIT: I also think Up Throw would kill better if it was angled more vertically, did 11-12%, and had little more base knockback. This way it'd be stronger, harder to DI, and would be able to kill from anywhere on the stage.

You know, those are all things I considered. I feel like all 3 of Kirby's Smash Attacks could be faster, but the biggest problem is getting weak hits which drastically skew their Risk/Reward factor. It's hard enough to land a Smash Attack with Kirby, but when you do and it doesn't get you a KO it's just disappointing. So I feel the primary way of fixing his Smash Attacks is to get rid of those sour-spots and properly reward players for getting those hard reads.

I really thought about saying how Final Cutter should hit on frame 5, but held off because with something as obviously long as frame 23 it's almost as if it's intentional, and if it is intentional then I just have to figure out the reason why before trying to 'fix' it. Right now my only theory is that it has such a long start-up because it's intended for use off-stage to get back on-stage and the start-up gives Kirby more time to move horizontally to the ledge. If this is the case, I can say that I'd rather sacrifice the horizontal movement. A frame 23 start-up should have some sort of impressive use, and Final Cutter definitely doesn't fit that bill.

Making Kirby's Up Throw a vertical KO option would help him out a whole lot. However, we saw that Kirby had this KO option available to him at the E3 Invitational Tournament and yet it was patched out by the time the game launched. Why was this Throw nerfed so hard, especially when it seems like it may have been a very core part of Kirby's game? If it was because the development team felt it was over-powered, then they may be hesitant to buff it back up to it's former strength. That is why I felt like the best course of action would simply make F-throw a strong KO option horizontally to match Kirby's B-throw.

Nair should be 4 fair 7 and uair 6.

How did you come up with those numbers? From looking at Kirby extensively, it seems that the current timing on his attacks all correspond with specific leads or follow-ups on those frames. For instance: the timing of N-air corresponds with hitting the opponent with the sweet-spot 1-frame before touching the ground if you Fast Fall it at the apex of a Short Hop; and, F-air corresponds with completing the third and final kick at the exact apex of a Full Jump allowing for an immediate Fast Fall and subsequent Auto Cancel upon landing.

Frames 4, 7, and 6 are good ballpark numbers, but I was just wondering if they held significant relation to anything in particular. Also, what could these changes affect if they were to be implemented? For instance, I know through my research in Brawl modding that if you sped up the start-up of Kirby's U-air to frame 6 that he would no longer combo F-throw into F-air, which was a major component of his game. Changing minor things, even slightly, can have bigger effects elsewhere. This is whey I was hesitant to change things too much, and even with the changes I proposed I still gave a disclaimer that they would need thorough testing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I figured making his uair that speed would give him uair strings and improve his juggle game. A faster fair not sure what that would do just a faster move. A faster nair sould be a combo breaker and a good OoS options.

Those numbers don't really have any special meaning i just think it brings him closer to other characters.

 

[Bribery]

IMO Uthrow would be better with a more vertical angle instead of horizontal. I think Kirby's Uthrow in the demo was nerfed because it had way too much KB in addition to a more vertical angle. It KO'd ZSS on Battlefield's lower platform below 100% which is stronger than Charizard's current Uthrow.

If they simply changed Kirby's current Uthrow angle from 78 degrees to 90 degrees, it would be slightly weaker than Lucas' Uthrow. Lucas' Uthrow KOs Mario at around 145% on FD with no rage so it wouldn't be too overpowered on Kirby. It's a really simple change to make that would benefit Kirby tremendously.

Kirby and Lucas Uthrow data for comparison:
Kirby's Uthrow: 10% dmg, 75 BKB, 63 KBG, 78 degree angle
Lucas' Uthrow: 10% dmg, 78 BKB, 69 KBG, 90 degree angle

 

[RedNova]

Personally I think we need an Up air buff.

Right now, there are two types of upairs, combo and finishers

-Combo:
Fast, autocancelable after a SHFF and low knocbkack. Mario, Metaknight, ZSS all have that.

-Finisher:
Not as fast as the above, but still quick and with great KO potential. Fox, Shiek, DK, there's a lot more.

Kirby is a Mix between the two and thats not good. Upair lasts way too long to be a good juggle and doesn't even kill at higher percents.

Maybe if they buffed it to be like Mario's or ZSS's, or even better, like it was in Melee, Kirby would be a high contender

 

[TimG57867]

Personally I think we need an Up air buff.

Right now, there are two types of upairs, combo and finishers

-Combo:
Fast, autocancelable after a SHFF and low knocbkack. Mario, Metaknight, ZSS all have that.

-Finisher:
Not as fast as the above, but still quick and with great KO potential. Fox, Shiek, DK, there's a lot more.

Kirby is a Mix between the two and thats not good. Upair lasts way too long to be a good juggle and doesn't even kill at higher percents.

Maybe if they buffed it to be like Mario's or ZSS's, or even better, like it was in Melee, Kirby would be a high contender

I agree with this. Kirby's jump, range, and air speed are too poor to get the insane Up Air chains that or get. I feel that if it did 12-13% with more knockback, it'd make netting stocks much easier for Kirby.

 

[|RK|]

My personal three changes would be:

Faster startup + lower endlag on Nair. When the move works, it really works. But it's often too slow to use it super well.

Faster startup + lower endlag on Final Cutter. If it could actually be used as a short-ranged projectile/combo ender, it would make Kirby's approach better.

Stronger Uthrow/Bthrow. Doesn't matter which - just something to make ending stocks easier.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I would really like a faster fair, uair, and nair so I agree on those changes. Honestly if we do get the frame data buff I feel like that would help Kirby tremendously because then he can challenge more people in the air. Nair, if buffed by lowering the startup, turns into a move that doesn't require too much prep, but still one that has incredible commitment unless done close to the ground. Being able to space out people using fair should've been a thing from the start, in fact it's actually still pretty good to do now without any buffs to it. A faster uair would be so much nicer and could help setup airdodge baits. 10 frame startup is incredibly long and it often requires you to throw it out before the opponent is in range for it.

Pls make uthrow kill earlier too... Having to wait until 180 percent to kill someone with no rage uthrow is so frustrating.

 

[t!MmY]

Upair lasts way too long to be a good juggle and doesn't even kill at higher percents. Maybe if they buffed it to be like Mario's or ZSS's, or even better, like it was in Melee, Kirby would be a high contender

I too feel like Kirby's Up Air is lacking. Seeing as it was changed from a strong attack after Melee shows that Kirby's Up Air is designed to juggle, as seen with Mario/Zero Suit Samus/Falcon. Taking a look at those characters:

It appears to be lacking in one aspect or the other for either combos or KOs. If it was made to combo, it would need a faster start-up and FAF, possibly balanced off with a lower damage or knockback. If Kirby's Up Air is suppose to KO, it would need a stronger hit from an increase in Damage, BKB/KBG, and/or a more vertical angle to the trajectory.

As much as I enjoyed hitting people with Kirby's U-air in Melee, I'm more partial to the 'juggle' incarnation it currently has. My main issues with it right now is that it is slow to start, has poor range, isn't easy to combo into, and doesn't really lead into anything when you hit with it when it would be useful (mid to high percents). Right now it's only especially good as a launcher at low percents, but considering how poor of a lead it is, it's not safe enough to use for that. (In other words, U-tilt is a better option).

I agree with this. Kirby's jump, range, and air speed are too poor to get the insane Up Air chains that or get. I feel that if it did 12-13% with more knockback, it'd make netting stocks much easier for Kirby.

Yes, it is important to take mobility into account as well as the attack being scrutinized. Kirby could have the same U-air as Mario or Zero Suit and he'd still not be able to use it as well as those characters can due to their air mobility and vertical jumping speed. He would need some sort of advantage to offset his low-tier speed in order to keep in line with these characters' capabilities.

I would really like a faster fair, uair, and nair so I agree on those changes. Honestly if we do get the frame data buff I feel like that would help Kirby tremendously because then he can challenge more people in the air.

I have a feeling that Kirby's character concept is a more ground-based one. Making him better in the air may help in general, but at that point we're just playing Jigglypuff with an altered appearance. The real question is, if he's suppose to be a ground-based character (Tilts, Grabs, Jabs) then why is his ground-based game so mediocre? If he's suppose to be an up-close fighter, why do his approach options and zone-breaking all falter?

Kirby is a really good character with just a couple key issues holding him back. As it is now, he feels overshadowed by other characters that can do what he does but better or with more perks.

Edit:
Just out of curiosity I looked at Ganondorf's U-air data:
13%
Active: 6 -16
BKB/KBG: 35/100
FAF: 34
Lag: 20
Auto Cancel: 25>

Those are some nice specs, at least for a strong U-air as opposed to a combo U-air. Pretty sure the hitboxes are notably larger than Kirby's as well.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wait how is his ground game mediocre? I mean yea his speed in terms of mobility and dealing with projectile characters is ANNOYINGL......but when he gets in, he does what he needs to o quite well right?

 

[WootSnorlax]

t!MmY I feel like the usual zonebreaker moves for Kirby are mostly his aerials. I personally love using sh fair as an approach and also using his multiple jumps as a mixup, but it sucks that dair is the only move that can reliably get any followups. Getting a grab is good at low percents, but at mid percents none of our throws will guarantee a follow up. Having only utilt being the one move that can set up for any sort of follow up, we really don't have any other way of approaching than from the air. That's why I feel like getting a buff for some of our aerials can mean a lot for us. Being able to use nair a lot easier and follow up from it would be so great. If we can combo with at least uair, I'd say we would already be way different from Jiggs.

I've always thought Kirby is one of those characters that has a hard time closing in on people, but when he does he can do some explosive damage. The problem is though, that while getting that explosive damage may be true for fast fallers, characters that are even just a bit floaty get out of Kirby's guaranteed combo range way earlier. Having a uair that never combos into anything just sucks for us, and on top of that it doesn't even kill. Falcon, Mario, and ZSS have a strong uair that can combo and at later percents can kill. It's sad that those characters have more groundspeed, more airspeed, and more range than us. Due to those traits these characters also all have guaranteed combos from a grab that ends up doing more damage than ours.

 

[Asdioh]

Those are some nice specs, at least for a strong U-air as opposed to a combo U-air. Pretty sure the hitboxes are notably larger than Kirby's as well.

You can say that... Ganondorf has possibly the best Upair in the game. It has a huge range, including disjoint. It's balanced by the fact that it's attached to Ganondorf, who is obviously extremely slow.

Wait how is his ground game mediocre? I mean yea his speed in terms of mobility and dealing with projectile characters is ANNOYINGL......but when he gets in, he does what he needs to o quite well right?

WootSnorlax has it right:

I've always thought Kirby is one of those characters that has a hard time closing in on people, but when he does he can do some explosive damage. The problem is though, that while getting that explosive damage may be true for fast fallers, characters that are even just a bit floaty get out of Kirby's guaranteed combo range way earlier.

Kirby's CQC combos are disproportionately strong on fast fallers, but on everyone else, they can jump out of his combos pretty quickly. Kirby has fairly low damage per hit on his combo moves, because they're designed to combo, but it's only really effective on fastfallers. On others, you can get a couple uptilts (for about 8-10% damage) and then maybe an Upair (another 9%) and then they can jump away, land safely because Kirby's slow, and then you're back to neutral and have to work hard to get in again.

Also, in regards to his ground game being mediocre: it both is, and isn't. By themselves, all his ground moves are good. Pretty good grab range/frame data, fast jab and tilts, fast and strong smashes. But Uptilt is his only true combo move out of these, most of the time. Dtilt works (when it trips, which is RNG) but at later percents, characters fall too far, even while tripping, to get a decent followup. Ftilt is a pretty good move, but will never net you anything more than 7-8 damage, then you're back to neutral again. Jab can lead to grab mixups, but that's about it.


If we're gonna talk about buffs, and we're not buffing things like weight/fallspeed/airspeed etc, then the first thing we should look at is how functional all his moves are. Kirby has it pretty well in this aspect, almost all of his moves are perfectly functional, with hitboxes matching animations and linking correctly etc!

Grab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Uptilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Upsmash, Bair, Fair, Nair, getup/ledge attacks, Inhale, and Stone are all perfectly functional.

Jab is mostly functional, but it's one of the easier ones in the game to DI out of, and then it can be punished because it has among the highest endlag. It's already been buffed once, but it should be made more consistent, like Fox's recently was. A 1 frame lower startup (3 -> 2) would also make sense, both for visual and balance purposes. Visually, Kirby's hand travels among the lowest distances and has one of the shortest reaches for any Jab in the game, so it would make sense for it to be the fastest, excluding Mac and ZSS' frame 1 Jabs. For balance, it simply makes sense for Kirby (an almost exclusively CQC fighter with low mobility and range to get in) to have a top tier speed Jab.

Upair is also mostly functional. You can land with it onto the ground, and that leads into combos at a pretty wide range of percentages. It can also combo in the air. The problem is that at certain percentages in the air, the move is basically unsafe, because the knockback is too low, or the endlag is too high. If the endlag was lower (I'd be happy with a couple frames cut off startup too, but it's usable the way it is) then it could combo better and be safer. It'll never be as good as ZSS/Mario/Falcon etc. because Kirby doesn't have insane mobility like those characters do. I've seen people say "ZSS has one of the best Dthrows in the game" but it's really pretty average, it's her crazy fast/high jumps that make its followups so possible. If ZSS has Kirby's Fthrow, people would call it one of the best Fthrows in the game, y'know what I mean?

Dair is a great move. Literally all it needs is lower landing lag, so it can reliably combo into smashes at kill percents. Dair->Dsmash works on some characters sometimes, and other characters ... sometimes not. Fastfallers seem the safest, and they will powershield it every time, giving them a free punish. Frame 18 startup is slow, but it's there to keep the move balanced, and I have no complaints about that. Even if the landing lag were lowered, the move would still have plenty of counterplay, in the forms of: rolling/moving away, attacking Kirby before the move comes out, or attacking Kirby while the move is out (because there's no disjoint.)

Dash Attack is probably the biggest offender in Kirby's moveset. The move is so bad that we usually forget to even talk about it! In a nutshell, it's high risk, low reward. It has multiple problems, so let's address them. First, it comes out on frame 12. The only Dash Attacks slower than that are: Dedede, Ike, Link, Lucina, Marth, Villager, and Shulk. What do these all have in common? All of them, excluding Villager and possibly Marcina, are powerful KO moves. All of them, excluding Villager, are from sword/hammer wielders. Villager's is special, since it's a projectile that can fall of ledges. Marcina's Dash Attack just kinda sucks, and could use buffs as well. Anyway, secondly is that the move frequently doesn't connect properly. It's one of the less consistent multihits in the game, so people may fall out of it and punish. Third, and this relates to the first, is that the move serves no purpose. We already know it's not a KO move, like the slower ones listed above. It's also not a combo move. It is impossible to combo out of Dash Attack. Many of the faster Dash Attacks in this game lead to combos, with Captain Falcon's probably being the most notorious. You can combo into Dash Attack, but any combo you could continue with Dash Attack, you could have chosen a more ideal move. So to recap: it's slow but doesn't KO, it doesn't combo, it's inconsistent, and it only does 9%. It needs a buff to startup, combo power, or KO power, as well as consistency, for this move to not be garbage. I think a 12 frame startup is fine, as long as the move can kill or combo. I don't actually know what would be better for Kirby. It would be nice to have another combo starter, especially if it lead into combos even until higher percents. However, Kirby has a hard time ending stocks, and if Dash Attack was reasonably powerful, that could be a nice option.

I didn't list Hammer Flip with the functional moves, but technically, it does function just fine. It just really sucks for 1v1s. I don't know what to do to make it balanced for 1v1s+FFAs+Teams, while also keeping it the same move it currently is, and sticking true to the Kirby games. Like I just randomly thought "what if it could reflect projectiles like Ness' bat, that'd be neat!" but that's not a thing that happens in the games! Most sensible buff I can think of is movespeed. Would the move be OP if Kirby could move full speed while charging? I doubt it. Would the move be better if swinging it in the air (the double swing) didn't completely kill Kirby's momentum? Heck yes.

Final Cutter has all sorts of problems! It sucks as a recovery, sucks as a projectile, is too slow to use as an out of shield option, and is even punishable on hit, because people can tech the downward spike and punish your endlag. Final Cutter is also unreasonably strong as an offstage spike, albeit situational. It might be the strongest spike in the game at 0%, due to how the combo is supposed to work. I don't know how Nintendo would go about fixing this, while keeping move's function the same. I guess first of all, it needs faster startup. I've seen people suggest as fast as 6 frames, which is just too fast. It was amazing for Upper Cutter, but that move has different uses. Final Cutter is currently frame 23, but I think something like frame 16 would be a lot more reasonable. Even that low is probably much lower than Nintendo would be willing to do; they only seem to change things by a few frames at a time, at most. Final Cutter has high landing lag, but that would be fair if the startup was buffed. The projectile is also shorter than it has been in any other Smash game, and I wouldn't mind the range being increased, though it doesn't matter that much. A faster startup makes the incredibly strong spike become more obvious of a problem. Currently, falling with Final Cutter has two hitboxes: the first one is the spike, at the apex of the move. The second hit just hits the opponent away at a horizontal, slightly upward angle. My suggestion would be to make the entire downward arc of the move simulate this second hit. This would be a big change: Final Cutter would no longer be a 3-hit combo, but instead a 2-hit, since the second hit would send opponents away, diagonally up in front of Kirby. This would solve two problems: it would make the move safe to use onstage, since opponents could no longer tech and punish it. It would also remove the gimmicky, ultra strong spike hitbox. It'd be sad to see the potential for this spike to go, but Kirby still has Dair and Inhale for offstage shenanigans. Since Final Cutter would become a 2-hit combo instead of 3, I say the falling hitbox should do 7 damage, to make the combo do the same 12% damage it used to do. The only problem I see with this change is that Final Cutter is a "spike" in the Kirby games, so I can't see Nintendo changing it. So we're stuck with our move that sucks most of the time, and is amazing on rare occasions where the opponents screw up and let themselves get spiked.



tl;dr: Final Cutter needs a buff/rework since the move is quite dysfunctional, but it will probably never happen.
Dash Attack is also dysfunctional, but I have more faith that Nintendo might fix this move, because the changes it needs are more akin to things they've changed in the past, such as Kirby's Fthrow, and various other moves that became better for combos or better at linking.
Jab, Dair, and Upair are mostly functional, but could use a little love.

Other than that, Kirby could use some buffs to make him competitive with the top tier, but there are countless ways to do this, so I think the important part is to point out what parts of his moveset don't really work, and fix those first. ...not that we're the ones patching the game... ;_;



Also, Samus' Upair, Fair, Upsmash, and Jab need fixes to link better. I don't care if Samus' Jab isn't "supposed" to link, that's terrible and needs to be fixed immediately. There's also a blindspot at the start of her Fsmash that needs fixing.
Greninja's Upair should link more reliably like it did in the original 3ds version, as long as it doesn't remove the sweet spiking combo ability. Also, his Substitute needs a buff, and there's a blindspot at the base of his Fsmash and Dsmash.
Zelda's Jab is frame 11, what is this nonsense? Please fix. Also fix her multihit smashes, and make Phantom less awful.
Ganondorf's Jab is frame 8, that's also a bit too slow. Also, he, and all the other low-mobility characters in the entire game should have a little bit more movespeed. There's simply too much disparity between the fast characters and the slow characters, and mobility is insanely important in Smash.
Also.... /endless rant about various characters that need fixes

 

[t!MmY]

Having only utilt being the one move that can set up for any sort of follow up, we really don't have any other way of approaching than from the air.

If we're talking about any sort of follow-up, then technically D-tilt also has guaranteed follow-ups with a trip. But then, of course, we have to rely on RNG to get our follow-ups. Well, at least we have U-tilt and Pivot U-tilt as well. :3

If we can combo with at least uair, I'd say we would already be way different from Jiggs.

I'm thinking Kirby's jump height and aerial mobility play into this (compare Jump Monado Kirby to see the difference). Because of this, in order for Kirby to combo off of U-air it would have to have buffed up framerate (see Meta Knight's Up Air for an example). However, if Meta Knight is suppose to do Meta Knight stuff, and Kirby is not suppose to do Meta Knight stuff, then this could be why U-air is much slower and hence lackluster.

If that's the case, then maybe it would be better for U-air to return to Melee U-air status (KO power). If U-tilt was also tweaked so as to allow for combos at higher percents this could give Kirby a reliable way of safe/leading into a KO (Melee-style U-air or B-air).

It's sad that those characters have more groundspeed, more airspeed, and more range than us. Due to those traits these characters also all have guaranteed combos from a grab that ends up doing more damage than ours.

This is why so many people conclude that Kirby's ground/air speed is what's holding him back from being as strong of a character as other close-quarter fighters. I'm okay with him being slow, but what does he get in return? I feel like Kirby players are better off, competitively speaking, playing Sheik, Zero Suit, Mario, Falcon, etc.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I really think Kirby is still a solid character even with his flaws though. I'm still pretty concerned that if we get any major buffs that it might tip him into being an overpowered character that many will complain about.

 

[RedNova]

The entire post

That's exactly what I feel while playing Kirby. But beacause It's my fave I will continue to play with him, I just need to adapt to his tools. Of course, I could use some f this buffs.

I'm thinking Kirby's jump height and aerial mobility play into this (compare Jump Monado Kirby to see the difference). Because of this, in order for Kirby to combo off of U-air it would have to have buffed up framerate (see Meta Knight's Up Air for an example). However, if Meta Knight is suppose to do Meta Knight stuff, and Kirby is not suppose to do Meta Knight stuff, then this could be why U-air is much slower and hence lackluster.

If that's the case, then maybe it would be better for U-air to return to Melee U-air status (KO power). If U-tilt was also tweaked so as to allow for combos at higher percents this could give Kirby a reliable way of safe/leading into a KO (Melee-style U-air or B-air).

That would solve almost all of the problems I have right now. I wouldn't mind having difficulty in getting in, if I know I have a guaranteed setup and a Kill move that can be easy to hit.

 

[TimG57867]

I think Kirby can be a strong contender without any mobility buffs. I mean proves you don't need to be super mobile to be a threat. You just need to have very effective moves. Whenever I list my ideas for fixing Kirby's neutral, I always make them with Luigi in mind. What does Luigi have the makes him strong that Kirby doesn't? In my eyes, 3 things: a good zoning tool, great frame data all around, and reliable kill moves. Final Cutter can be a perfectly good zoning tool as it's transcendent and covers the ground. The range and startup on it however are pitiful. If it simply had its startup cut down to at least half of what it currently is or less (Frame 5-14ish?) and was given less endlag, it'd be a great stage control option that would be on par with Luigi's fireballs. It'd also make for the much needed anti-air Kirby so desperately needs as well a good option for punishing rolls. For frame data, we've been over that plenty. The tilts are great but the aerials and smashes are too lacking given Kirby's mobility, range, and weight. Improving the endlag and startup on those would greatly improve Kirby's punish and approach game. Combine all that with a strong Up Throw and you have a Kirby that's more than capable of holding his own against any character.

I know it may seem too good in some respects, but we need to remember that Kirby's not only one the least mobile characters, but also the LIGHTEST characters. He can't afford to spend lots of time, taking damage while finding ways to get the kill because he dies quickly and the new rage mechanic makes that danger all the more apparent. I think with a design that takes a few cues from Luigi, Kirby could justify himself as a slow, yet easy to control glass cannon in contrast to who's mobile but tricky to use to his full potential. That's how I always envisioned him optimally being anyways.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think Kirby can be a strong contender without any mobility buffs. I mean proves you don't need to be super mobile to be a threat. You just need to have very effective moves. Whenever I list my ideas for fixing Kirby's neutral, I always make them with Luigi in mind. What does Luigi have the makes him strong that Kirby doesn't? In my eyes, 3 things: a good zoning tool, great frame data all around, and reliable kill moves. Final Cutter can be a perfectly good zoning tool as it's transcendent and covers the ground. The range and startup on it however are pitiful. If it simply had its startup cut down to at least half of what it currently is or less (Frame 5-14ish?) and was given less endlag, it'd be a great stage control option that would be on par with Luigi's fireballs. It'd also make for the much needed anti-air Kirby so desperately needs as well a good option for punishing rolls. For frame data, we've been over that plenty. The tilts are great but the aerials and smashes are too lacking given Kirby's mobility, range, and weight. Improving the endlag and startup on those would greatly improve Kirby's punish and approach game. Combine all that with a strong Up Throw and you have a Kirby that's more than capable of holding his own against any character.

I know it may seem too good in some respects, but we need to remember that Kirby's not only one the least mobile characters, but also the LIGHTEST characters. He can't afford to spend lots of time, taking damage while finding ways to get the kill because he dies quickly and the new rage mechanic makes that danger all the more apparent. I think with a design that takes a few cues from Luigi, Kirby could justify himself as a slow, yet easy to control glass cannon in contrast to who's mobile but tricky to use to his full potential. That's how I always envisioned him optimally being anyways.

Definitely agree with most of these points; also, just for another comparison, is also a character with poor mobility all around, but Ness possess some of the dumbest tools in the game overall while possessing overall great utility in many of his attacks, including a strong projectile.

The thing I noticed most about compared to both these characters is that he doesn't have much reliable/threatening kill options, or to put it bluntly, nothing that's to be feared at higher percents. Both his u-smash and f-smash are too slow to land reliably, and d-smash has very poor range overall. The best option I see for him at the moment is a b-throw kill off the ledge, but it's only at really high percentages, not to mention it's very dependent on where you are.

As much as I want Final Cutter to be buffed, the biggest problem I see with that is that FFAs are taken into account in terms of balancing, and considering how much the thing was abused in Brawl, I can't really see that happening.

I think a stronger b-throw, along with an u-smash and f-smash buff (frame start-up cut to 11 or something for both) would really help in terms of killing power, tho, and buffs to his aerials (d-air, f-air, and u-air) would make approaching much easier for him.

 

[TimG57867]

Definitely agree with most of these points; also, just for another comparison, is also a character with poor mobility all around, but Ness possess some of the dumbest tools in the game overall while possessing overall great utility in many of his attacks, including a strong projectile.

The thing I noticed most about compared to both these characters is that he doesn't have much reliable/threatening kill options, or to put it bluntly, nothing that's to be feared at higher percents. Both his u-smash and f-smash are too slow to land reliably, and d-smash has very poor range overall. The best option I see for him at the moment is a b-throw kill off the ledge, but it's only at really high percentages, not to mention it's very dependent on where you are.

As much as I want Final Cutter to be buffed, the biggest problem I see with that is that FFAs are taken into account in terms of balancing, and considering how much the thing was abused in Brawl, I can't really see that happening.

I think a stronger b-throw, along with an u-smash and f-smash buff (frame start-up cut to 11 or something for both) would really help in terms of killing power, tho, and buffs to his aerials (d-air, f-air, and u-air) would make approaching much easier for him.

Lately I have been taking free for alls into account when it comes to Kirby's balancing, but even then I think Final Cutter is too dysfunctional in general. While 3 frames of startup might be a bit too good, 23 frames of startup is just too poor. It makes recovering harder than it should be for Kirby and the endlag doesn't help. I think a good fix would be to cut the startup to Frame 12-15 and get rid of the obnoxious endlag along with restoring the projectile's range. And since it can't have its startup cut too low, instead buff N-Air to come out on frame 3 while cutting its endlag so that Kirby can have an out of shield and combo breaking option. That would make it fair in both formats in my opinion. You'd have an anti air that wouldn't be too easy to react to at close range without it being able to be spammed like hell and without the endlag, you'd be able to protect yourself even if your opponenet teched the spike and could use to approach.

I get that having my dream startup of 3 frames is too good, but right now the move is too bad in all formats. SOMETHING has to be done for it.

 

[Asdioh]

Also remember that you don't want any one move to be so good that it overshadows all others!

Example: Prepatch Diddy Upair

Example: Brawl Kirby's Bair. If I remember correctly, that move was so much better than his other aerials that you should just spam it all the time!

Kirby's Nair is already good, and I use it a lot. If it was buffed so that the startup was cut to one third of its current, and the endlag was also cut, it'd be his go-to aerial for almost every circumstance.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea Nair is good, I just want it to have uses offstage.

 

[TimG57867]

Also remember that you don't want any one move to be so good that it overshadows all others!

Example: Prepatch Diddy Upair

Example: Brawl Kirby's Bair. If I remember correctly, that move was so much better than his other aerials that you should just spam it all the time!

Kirby's Nair is already good, and I use it a lot. If it was buffed so that the startup was cut to one third of its current, and the endlag was also cut, it'd be his go-to aerial for almost every circumstance.

I guess you're right when you say that'd be too good if it came out on Frame 3 and had its end lag cut. But then again, having that end lag while coming out on Frame 10 leaves something to be desired. In fact now that I think about, the only reason I wanted less end lag on it is because of how long it lasts if you try to use it off stage or miss. But if it simply had the startup decreased, that would also cut the duration while making it more effective at the same time. Therefore, cut the startup to 3-4 and leave the end lag as it is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think kirby is lacking his best traight is I'm hard to hit if I'm crouching. He has a lot of moves that's similar to othher characters just too slow in comparison. Also would like hus up b to auto snap to the ledge.

 

[Phan7om]

I have a lot to say about Kirby's design in general, I actually dont know where to begin.

Ill start by addressing common suggestions for design. IF I had the ability to balance/redesign Kirby for a future patch, I would aim for him to be around #10 on the tier list (if no other character was changed currently). I do feel though, every character should be buffed/nerfed to be as close to #10 as possible. That way characters are still fun and have the options to deal with a number of situations and games go by rather quickly, but not invulnerable to weaknesses and dont have 1D strats. There are a few conditions about the changes though:

1. They should still play like themselves as a character
2. No strategy is overly central to their game plan, this could mean 1 move or a set of moves. (Asdioh pointed this out earlier with Diddy Uair, Kirby Bair in Brawl)
3. Intuitive to play as, and has an interesting and deep neutral and punish game at top level​

Applying this to the cast would result in a large amount of changes, though there are characters that I believe more or less fit into these conditions (Ex. Peach, Greninja, Ryu, etc), not saying these characters are around #10, this is purely design. Some may need a few balance changes. Edit: Side note, I find it interesting that these 3 characters are considered "hard to play" in 4, when these characters would be like average/easy in any other smash game, that says something about most characters design tbh.

So how does this relate to Kirby? For starters, when I consider his balance changes I keep these conditions in mind. Trying to make Kirby more like Ness/Luigi in terms of design, to me, is the opposite direction we should be going. It happened in PM around the times of late 3.02 also; some people wanted to make the reasonable unreasonable, instead of trying to make the unreasonable reasonable. If we were to buff Kirby without changing mobility, I would buff him in a way where hes not dair-utilt-uair-fthrow the character like he is now. To put it simpler, a lower level player shouldn't be able to quickly tell you the best options for the character if he does not use the character. (Ex. ask someone [who doesnt use these characters] how to play Greninja, then ask them how to play Ness, see the difference.)
~
So with that out of the way, I will start to list a few of the many changes I want for him (and if the going gets tough I might list more or all changes). These are core changes many feel in some way need changes. Many probably have different opinions and will not agree with a lot of the stuff im bout to list. Also keep in mind everything above the "~" is genuinely what I believe even if you think my following changes dont follow that, im bad you know xD. Truth is Kirby, without copy abilities, cant really get too complex without making him bad or adding too many unnecessary tech barriers.

Specials
Hammer
-Uncharged BKB/KBG increased to 80/100 (from 60/70), Aerial 70/90 (from 60/70)
-Aerial startup decreased to frame 18 (from 28)
-Aerial hammer 2nd swing angle decreased to 35 (from 55)
This makes uncharged hammer a viable kill move considering its risk-reward factor. Its makes it about as strong as Villager's uncharged Fsmash... if you take into account the angles of the moves. Aerial version is also sped up with more power to increase kill power when facing forwards, makes air interaction more deep.

Copy
-Loss %s altered to 0%; 100% for critical/black spark
-Has a certain number of hitstun so its unpunishable
Kirby wont lose its copy ability, but to keep it as it does in the games (where he does lose it) he will lose it when he is hit by a strong attack (and likely about to be killed). Also the hitstun increases to certain characters cannot punish (like Peach can still float punish).

Final Cutter
-Startup decreased to frame 15 (from 23)
-Falling part of cutter always spikes (instead of sending horizontally)
-Landing hitbox reduced to only 70% of the blade
Startup isnt as fast as some might want it but is good to function as it works. Now that the falling part of the cutter always spikes, and the landing hitbox isnt there to pop them up, spiking them with the cutter is more viable. The landing hitbox isnt completely removed because that would allow mindless spiking when not spaced, so rewards spacing of the move. Also note that certain things like final cutter grabbing the ledge from behind or snapping to the ledge aren't added to fit within my above conditions.

Stone
-Light Armor (strength of Snake's cypher armor in Brawl) starting on frame 20 (it hits on frame 29)
-KBG increased to 100 (from 70)
Armor was added, but not for long as it only lasts for 9 frames. This was mainly as an aesthetic buff because of what the move looks like and isnt anything like a combo breaker. Also the KBG was increased so that hitting with it kills earlier and makes Kirby's bad version of the 50/50 more viable, which still makes punishes interesting and deep.

Aerials (Note: Kirby has a 39 frame short hop)
Fair
-Startup decreased to frame 6 (from 10), 1-5 frame autocancel startup instead of 1-9 (obvious reasons)
-Auto-cancels on frame 37 (from 41)
-IASA decreased to 44 (from 48)
-landing lag decreased to 9 frames
The 2 dashes following the first are naturally what would happen if startup was decreased, everything is shifted up by 4 frames. Makes Kirby's neutral better and more intuitive. Landing lag was decreased as well; I do think every character needs a landing lag reduction on their aerials.

Bair
-IASA decreased to 38 (from 41)
-landing lag decreased to 11 frames
Bair is good and with the landing lag reduction it would only be -2 on shield if done correctly increasing his pressure game and makes him bait out stuff easier. IASA is decreased to help with wall of pains and combos a bit, and also gives Kirby the abillity to jump out of it during a short hop for more mixups.

Uair
-Startup decreased to frame 6 (from 10), 1-5 frame autocancel startup instead of 1-9
-Frame 6-9 of Uair BKB/KBG increased to 20/130 (from 20/100), frames 10-11 remain as they do now (gives uair a sweetspot)
-Sweetspot does 11% (from 9%)
-Uair IASA decreased to 36 (from 40)
-landing lag decreased to 9 frames
Biggest change out of his aerials. Startup and IASA changed to make it more of a combo move at lower %s. Also KBG is increased during the first 3 frames to be able to kill at higher %s, making him more threatening in the air. Last 2 frames left the same to allow Reverse Uair to still do its thing.

Nair
-Startup decreased to frame 5 (from 10, already has a 1-4 autocancel startup)
-Autocancels frame 38
-IASA decreased to 50 (from 73), Duration decreased to 74 (from 80)
-landing lag decreased to 8 frames
Startup decreased to frame 5, becomes his fastest aerial but isnt as fast as other Nairs making it not as good of a combo breaker as Kirby has multiple jumps and can already semi-safely combo break that way. Autocancels from shorthop. Quicker IASA so it has use offstage.

Dair
-Autocancels frame 40 (from 48)
-Can HUP cancel off of platforms and out of buffered tumble hitstun (global change to autocancel startup moves)
Dair is already pretty good, some consider it the best Dair in the game, so changes arent that significant. It has a sooner autocancel window because of what the move looks like, and to help with pressure. Global QOL change to make A landing better, and platform movement trickier.

Normals
-Jab 1 can jab reset
-Ftilt IASA decreased to 24 (from 28)
-Very tip of Dtilt has a 75% trip rate
-Utilt BKB/KBG changed to 65/30;weak 65/28 (from 40/116;weak 40/110)
-Dash attack angle decreased to 45 (from 65)
Utilt is probably what most people wouldnt agree with. From those changes, it knocks them further away at low %s and does not change much at higher %s. Cant mindlessly mash against fastfallers at low %s, but gives him a very useful kill setup. Dash attack knocks them more horizontal to make it more useful for edgeguards.

Smashes
-Dsmash angle decreased to 29 (from 69)
-Frames 15-16 of Usmash BKB/KBG increased to 32/96 (from 20/96)
-Charging Fsmash increased shield damage growth
The new angle makes Dsmash useful. The mid frames of Upsmash are buffed to make Kirby more threatening underneath Battlefields platforms since he could kill earlier off of a read or landing. Fsmash against shields become better because of the shield damage growth, which means the more you charge it the more shield damage it does. Makes shields against Kirby slightly worse and increases pressure.

Throws
-Uthrow KBG increased to 100 (from 63)
-Uthrow angle increased to 85 (from 78)
-Fthrow angle decreased to 69 (from 75)
-Dthrow angle increased to 80 (from 63)
-Dthrow KBG decreased to 90 (from 180)
Uthrow KBG and angle increased to act as a kill throw, but isnt Toxic, but is strong enough to prevent shields at high %s. Fthrow angle is changed so that follow ups arent as guaranteed/free at low%s with DI, but still work at high %s with certain copy abilities. Dthrow becomes the low % combo starter, sending at a similar KB as Link's Dthrow.

Mobility
-Run Speed increased to 1.6 (from 1.5)
-Air speed increased to 1.0 (from .8)
Makes him slightly more mobile, but not as mobile as most people want to think. Run speed is buffed up to Mario's, which tbh is virtually the same as Kirby's until half of Battlefield's distance. Air speed is buffed up to Rosa's.

 

[Asdioh]

Neat. I like most of the changes! I think Fair and Nair are overbuffed. Nair is already pretty safe on shield, it doesn't need lower landing lag in addition to its much better startup time. Same with Fair, a faster startup would make it much better in neutral, but the landing lag is already pretty reasonable, especially for a multihit move that leads into followups. I'm confused about the Dair change, is it to prevent jablocks when you get knocked off places such as Battlefield's platforms?

Hammer changes are good I guess, the move is always gonna be high risk, so at least making it a little easier to land, and an actual high reward, would be nice. Armor on Stone would be nice, and frame 20 isn't even very early so that move's still pretty unsafe and "fair." I don't know about it needing more KBG though, it's already very powerful. The Inhale change is a unique idea. If Kirby is forced to have the "losing power" in the game no matter what, I'd definitely prefer your way, or have it require a set amount of damage, so if Kirby took x% with the power, he'd lose it.

Final Cutter is interesting. Frame 15 startup: Good. It's essentially unreactable, but still not anywhere near the top tier of speed for attacks. You seem to be encouraging Final Cutter meteors though, which is the opposite of what I would've changed.

The landing hitbox isnt completely removed because that would allow mindless spiking when not spaced, so rewards spacing of the move.

But with faster startup, and no horizontal hitbox, that would make Final Cutter far more reliable to hit, and it would always send them down. More importantly, grabbing the ledge removes the landing hitbox entirely, which, when the non-meteor hitbox is removed, makes meteors far easier to perform. And Final Cutter is the strongest meteor at 0% in the game, or very close to it. The closest example I can think of is how Zero Suit Samus (occasionally) gets low percent combos, such as a Nair or Bthrow, into her CRAZY strong Flipkick meteor, and that's annoyingly good. I know it might be DI dependent or whatever, but I don't want him to have a low percent kill that you'll see very frequently, you know? I would want it to require multiple reads.

Also note that certain things like final cutter grabbing the ledge from behind or snapping to the ledge aren't added to fit within my above conditions.

Agreed. I was never in favor of Final Cutter snapping the ledge, and I would only agree with backwards Cutter grabbing the ledge if the spike hitbox was removed, or if it wasn't so crazy strong.


Jab change is fine, Ftilt buff seems overkill as it's already very good, Uptilt change it sounds like I would be in favor of, because I don't like having such a volatile tool be matchup dependent. I think I've stated that I'm not a big fan of how overpowering Kirby's Uptilt/crouch are in some matchups, and near useless in others. The Dtilt change is kind of random, but I guess it rewards good spacing? I still hate RNG for something as important as Kirby's amazing trip combos, but I'll take it I guess. I'd prefer if Dash Attack lead into combos, rather than set up for an edgeguard. I think Jab is already good for that.

I think Dsmash and Fsmash are perfectly fine as is. Upsmash is also fine, the only thing I would change is to make the Upsmash sweetspot 14-16 instead of just 14, and then 15-16 being the second weakest. I'd just make 14-16 the strong hit, and 17-19 the weak hit. It's already 5 frames slower than Mario's, and with that buff it would still have 1 less sweetspot frame. Its tradeoff is that it's stronger... barely.

Upthrow: good, fine.
Fthrow: this one's hard to picture without seeing it in action, but maybe! I would like it to lead into guaranteed combos at low percents, and reads at higher percents, but this is much harder to do than with stuff like Sheik's throws, because of Kirby's slow speed.
Dthrow: Eh. I'm ok with this throwing being the "straight damage" throw. In fact, keep its damage at its current 10%, maybe make it 10.5 so it occasionally does 11%, and nerf Upthrow's damage down to 8-9%. Increase the knockback so Upthrow is a KO throw at high percents, but make a clear differentiation between the two, so you know which one does the damage, and which one does the knockback. And Bthrow is fine as-is. Although it's kind of janky having to remember which characters and percentages Bthrow combos work on.

And I guess you edited in mobility... Mario's runspeed is exactly what I would go for, and for airspeed, I'd be happy with at least Brawl's level. 1.0 might be a big change but hey, that'd require testing! Which we can't do, since this is all hypothetical!

It's still fun to talk about though!




Btw, I'm talking about how annoyingly good Final Cutter would be if it had fast startup and always meteored... and that's exactly what Cloud's UpB looks like it does. It has blatantly faster startup, and seems to meteor the whole way down. I'm gonna be a little upset if it's significantly better than Kirby/Ike's UpBs at doing that.

 

[TimG57867]

I have a lot to say about Kirby's design in general, I actually dont know where to begin.

Ill start by addressing common suggestions for design. IF I had the ability to balance/redesign Kirby for a future patch, I would aim for him to be around #10 on the tier list (if no other character was changed currently). I do feel though, every character should be buffed/nerfed to be as close to #10 as possible. That way characters are still fun and have the options to deal with a number of situations and games go by rather quickly, but not invulnerable to weaknesses and dont have 1D strats. There are a few conditions about the changes though:

1. They should still play like themselves as a character
2. No strategy is overly central to their game plan, this could mean 1 move or a set of moves. (Asdioh pointed this out earlier with Diddy Uair, Kirby Bair in Brawl)
3. Intuitive to play as, and has an interesting and deep neutral and punish game at top level​

Applying this to the cast would result in a large amount of changes, though there are characters that I believe more or less fit into these conditions (Ex. Peach, Greninja, Ryu, etc), not saying these characters are around #10, this is purely design. Some may need a few balance changes. Edit: Side note, I find it interesting that these 3 characters are considered "hard to play" in 4, when these characters would be like average/easy in any other smash game, that says something about most characters design tbh.

So how does this relate to Kirby? For starters, when I consider his balance changes I keep these conditions in mind. Trying to make Kirby more like Ness/Luigi in terms of design, to me, is the opposite direction we should be going. It happened in PM around the times of late 3.02 also; some people wanted to make the reasonable unreasonable, instead of trying to make the unreasonable reasonable. If we were to buff Kirby without changing mobility, I would buff him in a way where hes not dair-utilt-uair-fthrow the character like he is now. To put it simpler, a lower level player shouldn't be able to quickly tell you the best options for the character if he does not use the character. (Ex. ask someone [who doesnt use these characters] how to play Greninja, then ask them how to play Ness, see the difference.)
~
So with that out of the way, I will start to list a few of the many changes I want for him (and if the going gets tough I might list more or all changes). These are core changes many feel in some way need changes. Many probably have different opinions and will not agree with a lot of the stuff im bout to list. Also keep in mind everything above the "~" is genuinely what I believe even if you think my following changes dont follow that, im bad you know xD. Truth is Kirby, without copy abilities, cant really get too complex without making him bad or adding too many unnecessary tech barriers.

Specials
Hammer
-Uncharged BKB/KBG increased to 80/100 (from 60/70), Aerial 70/90 (from 60/70)
-Aerial startup decreased to frame 18 (from 28)
-Aerial hammer 2nd swing angle decreased to 35 (from 55)
This makes uncharged hammer a viable kill move considering its risk-reward factor. Its makes it about as strong as Villager's uncharged Fsmash... if you take into account the angles of the moves. Aerial version is also sped up with more power to increase kill power when facing forwards, makes air interaction more deep.

Copy
-Loss %s altered to 0%; 100% for critical/black spark
-Has a certain number of hitstun so its unpunishable
Kirby wont lose its copy ability, but to keep it as it does in the games (where he does lose it) he will lose it when he is hit by a strong attack (and likely about to be killed). Also the hitstun increases to certain characters cannot punish (like Peach can still float punish).

Final Cutter
-Startup decreased to frame 15 (from 23)
-Falling part of cutter always spikes (instead of sending horizontally)
-Landing hitbox reduced to only 70% of the blade
Startup isnt as fast as some might want it but is good to function as it works. Now that the falling part of the cutter always spikes, and the landing hitbox isnt there to pop them up, spiking them with the cutter is more viable. The landing hitbox isnt completely removed because that would allow mindless spiking when not spaced, so rewards spacing of the move. Also note that certain things like final cutter grabbing the ledge from behind or snapping to the ledge aren't added to fit within my above conditions.

Stone
-Light Armor (strength of Snake's cypher armor in Brawl) starting on frame 20 (it hits on frame 29)
-KBG increased to 100 (from 70)
Armor was added, but not for long as it only lasts for 9 frames. This was mainly as an aesthetic buff because of what the move looks like and isnt anything like a combo breaker. Also the KBG was increased so that hitting with it kills earlier and makes Kirby's bad version of the 50/50 more viable, which still makes punishes interesting and deep.

Aerials (Note: Kirby has a 39 frame short hop)
Fair
-Startup decreased to frame 6 (from 10), 1-5 frame autocancel startup instead of 1-9 (obvious reasons)
-Auto-cancels on frame 37 (from 41)
-IASA decreased to 44 (from 48)
-landing lag decreased to 9 frames
The 2 dashes following the first are naturally what would happen if startup was decreased, everything is shifted up by 4 frames. Makes Kirby's neutral better and more intuitive. Landing lag was decreased as well; I do think every character needs a landing lag reduction on their aerials.

Bair
-IASA decreased to 38 (from 41)
-landing lag decreased to 11 frames
Bair is good and with the landing lag reduction it would only be -2 on shield if done correctly increasing his pressure game and makes him bait out stuff easier. IASA is decreased to help with wall of pains and combos a bit, and also gives Kirby the abillity to jump out of it during a short hop for more mixups.

Uair
-Startup decreased to frame 6 (from 10), 1-5 frame autocancel startup instead of 1-9
-Frame 6-9 of Uair BKB/KBG increased to 20/130 (from 20/100), frames 10-11 remain as they do now (gives uair a sweetspot)
-Sweetspot does 11% (from 9%)
-Uair IASA decreased to 36 (from 40)
-landing lag decreased to 9 frames
Biggest change out of his aerials. Startup and IASA changed to make it more of a combo move at lower %s. Also KBG is increased during the first 3 frames to be able to kill at higher %s, making him more threatening in the air. Last 2 frames left the same to allow Reverse Uair to still do its thing.

Nair
-Startup decreased to frame 5 (from 10, already has a 1-4 autocancel startup)
-Autocancels frame 38
-IASA decreased to 50 (from 73), Duration decreased to 74 (from 80)
-landing lag decreased to 8 frames
Startup decreased to frame 5, becomes his fastest aerial but isnt as fast as other Nairs making it not as good of a combo breaker as Kirby has multiple jumps and can already semi-safely combo break that way. Autocancels from shorthop. Quicker IASA so it has use offstage.

Dair
-Autocancels frame 40 (from 48)
-Can HUP cancel off of platforms and out of buffered tumble hitstun (global change to autocancel startup moves)
Dair is already pretty good, some consider it the best Dair in the game, so changes arent that significant. It has a sooner autocancel window because of what the move looks like, and to help with pressure. Global QOL change to make A landing better, and platform movement trickier.

Normals
-Jab 1 can jab reset
-Ftilt IASA decreased to 24 (from 28)
-Very tip of Dtilt has a 75% trip rate
-Utilt BKB/KBG changed to 65/30;weak 65/28 (from 40/116;weak 40/110)
-Dash attack angle decreased to 45 (from 65)
Utilt is probably what most people wouldnt agree with. From those changes, it knocks them further away at low %s and does not change much at higher %s. Cant mindlessly mash against fastfallers at low %s, but gives him a very useful kill setup. Dash attack knocks them more horizontal to make it more useful for edgeguards.

Smashes
-Dsmash angle decreased to 29 (from 69)
-Frames 15-16 of Usmash BKB/KBG increased to 32/96 (from 20/96)
-Charging Fsmash increased shield damage growth
The new angle makes Dsmash useful. The mid frames of Upsmash are buffed to make Kirby more threatening underneath Battlefields platforms since he could kill earlier off of a read or landing. Fsmash against shields become better because of the shield damage growth, which means the more you charge it the more shield damage it does. Makes shields against Kirby slightly worse and increases pressure.

Throws
-Uthrow KBG increased to 100 (from 63)
-Uthrow angle increased to 85 (from 78)
-Fthrow angle decreased to 69 (from 75)
-Dthrow angle increased to 80 (from 63)
-Dthrow KBG decreased to 90 (from 180)
Uthrow KBG and angle increased to act as a kill throw, but isnt Toxic, but is strong enough to prevent shields at high %s. Fthrow angle is changed so that follow ups arent as guaranteed/free at low%s with DI, but still work at high %s with certain copy abilities. Dthrow becomes the low % combo starter, sending at a similar KB as Link's Dthrow.

Mobility
-Run Speed increased to 1.6 (from 1.5)
-Air speed increased to 1.0 (from .8)
Makes him slightly more mobile, but not as mobile as most people want to think. Run speed is buffed up to Mario's, which tbh is virtually the same as Kirby's until half of Battlefield's distance. Air speed is buffed up to Rosa's.

Ehh. When I say that I want Kirby to be more like or , I am mostly referring to the idea of having a character that has poor mobility bet devastatingly effective moves to compensate. I don't mean that I want him to FUNCTION like they do. Believe me, the last thing I want is for Kirby to become one dimensional/brain dead character like pre-patch Luigi was. I just want Kirby's moves to become effective enough so that he can implement is bait and punish gameplan well without being held back by both poor mobility AND ineffective moves. These are great ideas, but I don't think a character needs to consciously designed in order to have tons of hidden depth. I think it's alright to have straightforward characters, just so long as their moveset overall is effective enough allow room for personal optimization in gameplan without having to constantly resort to the same moves in the same general order. And this would naturally come with having more effective moves. Also a few nitpicks:

• As Asdioh said, less startup AND endlag on N-Air and F-Air would be a bit much. I think it'd be more useful to leave the current end lag and make them Frame 3 and Frame 5-6 respectively.
• Gotta disagree on D-Air. That startup would be fair if Kirby had good mobility. But since he has the 4th lowest air speed and is tied at 33-39 for run speed, I think Frame 18 is a bit too much. Frame 12 seems more reasonable.
• Up Smash and Down Smash really need less startup. On such slow character there's no reason for them to be that slow. The end lag is fine though.
• Given Kirby's mobility, I think he might be better off if his Up Air was redesigned to kill rather than combo. (Basically a reverse of what they did to 's Up Air. ) I think Kirby's range, jump, and air speed are too poor to get a lot of mileage out of combo based Up Air.
• I personally think Final Cutter should be retooled to aid in zoning. It's really the neutral establishing tool Kirby so desperately needs. I think less focus should be put on spiking and more should be directed to allowing it to hit in a window that your foe can't easily react (I initially thought Frame 3 but realized that's overpowered. Frame 13-15 seems more like it) and aid in controlling space. (It really needs to have its old range restored. The blade projectile doesn't get enough credit in its theoretical use. I even made a thread about it.) I think ideally, it should be designed to have a fairly ranged projectile for spacing and forcing approach at a distance and should always hit your foe away on stage close up or spike them off it.
• Those speed adjustments are ideal, but I am not holding my breath on mobility patches so I think we should focus on optimizing Kirby around his current mobility until they prove otherwise.

Most of everything else seems alright though.

 

[t!MmY]

I was hoping more people would have responded to Asdioh's post above because he brings up some good points and interesting thoughts.

Final Cutter has all sorts of problems! It sucks as a recovery, sucks as a projectile, is too slow to use as an out of shield option, and is even punishable on hit, because people can tech the downward spike and punish your endlag.

There could be arguments from many different points of how to buff Final Cutter: fast start-up, fast cool-down, better zoning, etc. I think as long as it did something it would at least be decent. Personally I'm in favor of a fast start-up to give Kirby a nice riposte-style option against incoming attacks plus a decent Out-of-Shield option. I'm not entirely opposed to the reverse either: a faster ending and longer reaching Cutter Shot to help with spacing and zoning. The reason I favor the former instead of the latter is because I see Kirby as a character that has to get into the fray to do his damage. But as I said earlier, as long as Final Cutter did something useful it's better than nothing.

Final Cutter is also unreasonably strong as an offstage spike, albeit situational.

I feel like unreasonably strong attacks are all too common in this iteration of Smash: Luigi Misfires, PK Thunder/Rocket, G&W #9, Peach Bob-omb, Wario Waft, Ganon Suicides, input Shorhukens, etc. Kirby's Final Cutter spike may be unreasonably strong, but as far as unreasonable attacks go in the game it's pretty mild.

Being a strong spike at 0% isn't much when you consider how much damage Kirby usually has to tack onto an opponent to get them off-stage to begin with. If they're getting dunked at low percents it's probably because they're playing recklessly or mindlessly to begin with and would be the type to run into Kirbycides as well.

Currently, falling with Final Cutter has two hitboxes: the first one is the spike, at the apex of the move. The second hit just hits the opponent away at a horizontal, slightly upward angle. My suggestion would be to make the entire downward arc of the move simulate this second hit.

I found this part of your post the most interesting. When I first hit with the nerfed Final Cutter's downward hitbox I was grieved - I loved to jump out and finish someone's last stock with a nice Final Cutter finish - but I just accepted it and moved on. I sort of like the idea of making the entirety of the downward swing a non-meteor as long as I could jump out and get the KO horizontally off-stage or at least get a strong stage-spike off of it. Most importantly it fixes the oddity of hitting the opponent into the ground just to have them Tech/Ukemi and be in a strong position to punish Kirby.

 

[TimG57867]

I was hoping more people would have responded to Asdioh's post above because he brings up some good points and interesting thoughts.


There could be arguments from many different points of how to buff Final Cutter: fast start-up, fast cool-down, better zoning, etc. I think as long as it did something it would at least be decent. Personally I'm in favor of a fast start-up to give Kirby a nice riposte-style option against incoming attacks plus a decent Out-of-Shield option. I'm not entirely opposed to the reverse either: a faster ending and longer reaching Cutter Shot to help with spacing and zoning. The reason I favor the former instead of the latter is because I see Kirby as a character that has to get into the fray to do his damage. But as I said earlier, as long as Final Cutter did something useful it's better than nothing.


I feel like unreasonably strong attacks are all too common in this iteration of Smash: Luigi Misfires, PK Thunder/Rocket, G&W #9, Peach Bob-omb, Wario Waft, Ganon Suicides, input Shorhukens, etc. Kirby's Final Cutter spike may be unreasonably strong, but as far as unreasonable attacks go in the game it's pretty mild.

Being a strong spike at 0% isn't much when you consider how much damage Kirby usually has to tack onto an opponent to get them off-stage to begin with. If they're getting dunked at low percents it's probably because they're playing recklessly or mindlessly to begin with and would be the type to run into Kirbycides as well.


I found this part of your post the most interesting. When I first hit with the nerfed Final Cutter's downward hitbox I was grieved - I loved to jump out and finish someone's last stock with a nice Final Cutter finish - but I just accepted it and moved on. I sort of like the idea of making the entirety of the downward swing a non-meteor as long as I could jump out and get the KO horizontally off-stage or at least get a strong stage-spike off of it. Most importantly it fixes the oddity of hitting the opponent into the ground just to have them Tech/Ukemi and be in a strong position to punish Kirby.

Glad to see Final Cutter getting more attention in regards to what needs to be fixed about Kirby. Threads about buffing Kirby prior to September focused more on the rest of Kirby's kit even though this was the move that arguably had to the most potential to fix Kirby's neutral. I mean think about it. Aside from frame data, Kirby's move design and mobility is a lot like Luigi's. What let's Luigi be successful is the fact that he can establish himself in neutral with Fireballs. I hear people in general discussions say that Kirby would be worlds better with a projectile but he already has one. It just got (unfairly) nerfed. And when you think about it, next to B-Air, it was the most useful neutral establishing tool Kirby had in Brawl. (I mean it actually beat out Meta Knight's Mach Tornado!)

As far as how Final Cutter should be fixed, I am not sure which way would be most appropriate. I'd love startup between 3-8 frames, but realized that might be a bit OP because unlike most offensive Up Specials, Kirby doesn't go into free fall at the peak. He crashes down, with blade protecting him. While this makes it bad for recovery, it makes it (theoretically) safe zoning tool. With startup on par with other OOS Up B's like 's, it'd be absurdly safe it came out too fast. Perhaps it'd be best to make it a balanced move. Cut the startup and end reasonably while improving the projectile range. Giving it 12-15 frame startup would allow it when you need hit too. Cutting end lag by 5 frames would aid in approach and make it less punishable. And greater range would make it safer to play around heavy and disjointed characters while also keeping Kirby from being walled by thugs like and prevent him from being camped by speedy characters like . And if they could figure out a way for the 3rd hit to always send the foe flying instead of spiking them into the stage and allowing them to tech, that'd be cool.

 

[t!MmY]

As far as how Final Cutter should be fixed, I am not sure which way would be most appropriate. I'd love startup between 3-8 frames, but realized that might be a bit OP because unlike most offensive Up Specials, Kirby doesn't go into free fall at the peak.

Being forced into 'free fall' or being forced into descending until you touch the ground isn't a very big difference; it's how punishable the move is on whiff/block that makes the difference. Final Cutter would still be easy to punish even with a 1-frame start-up since it has an FAF of 34 after landing.

If Final Cutter is suppose to be a zoning tool, then you'd want to compare it to other zoning tools. Since you brought up Luigi, a quick look at his frame data shows that his Fireball is active frames 17 to 45 and has an FAF of 44. Not taking Final Cutter's 23 frame start-up into consideration, it's fairly similar (assuming the height at which Kirby starts the Final Cutter is also the same height he stops at on the way back down). But once you have to start adding in those 23 frames, it becomes a very weak option in the neutral game, especially when you also take into consideration the stunted range of the current Cutter Shot.

As a Kirby enthusiast, I will say that I would prefer to see it closer to the game from which it originates, Kirby Super Star. It has a quick start, multi-hit, and very short cutter shot. It would be awesome if it also had the cool multi-hit initial attack as well.

I feel like if the only change to Final Cutter was to cut the start-up in half, shave 5 frames off the ending, and increase the range of the shot, that it would just make it a spammy and poor projectile option. I'd rather Kirby not have any zoning options, honestly. Rather, I'd like him to have stronger close-quarter options.

 

[TimG57867]

Being forced into 'free fall' or being forced into descending until you touch the ground isn't a very big difference; it's how punishable the move is on whiff/block that makes the difference. Final Cutter would still be easy to punish even with a 1-frame start-up since it has an FAF of 34 after landing.

If Final Cutter is suppose to be a zoning tool, then you'd want to compare it to other zoning tools. Since you brought up Luigi, a quick look at his frame data shows that his Fireball is active frames 17 to 45 and has an FAF of 44. Not taking Final Cutter's 23 frame start-up into consideration, it's fairly similar (assuming the height at which Kirby starts the Final Cutter is also the same height he stops at on the way back down). But once you have to start adding in those 23 frames, it becomes a very weak option in the neutral game, especially when you also take into consideration the stunted range of the current Cutter Shot.

As a Kirby enthusiast, I will say that I would prefer to see it closer to the game from which it originates, Kirby Super Star. It has a quick start, multi-hit, and very short cutter shot. It would be awesome if it also had the cool multi-hit initial attack as well.

I feel like if the only change to Final Cutter was to cut the start-up in half, shave 5 frames off the ending, and increase the range of the shot, that it would just make it a spammy and poor projectile option. I'd rather Kirby not have any zoning options, honestly. Rather, I'd like him to have stronger close-quarter options.

Good points. Though when I said, if was executed too fast it be OP, I guess I should said in general. I thought the end lag was implied since I wanted that cut too. But I agree that Kirby isn't really the type of character that should be "zoning". It's just that a decently ranged Final Cutter was something he already had in Brawl and I've yet to figure out why they would nerf such a thing. (I have a hunch that it's Wave Cutter but I seriously hope I'm wrong because that just wouldn't make any sense). I guess you could say that seeing them give him back his Gonzo Combo just flaired my hopes that they would further restore his kit from Brawl (better autcocancel aerials, stronger Up Throw, decently ranged Final Cutter). But at least at any rate, we can agree that the move just needs to really be sped because that 23 frame startup combined with that end lag is atrocious.

 

[TJTheRager]

Honestly, I believe that Kirby is already low key top tier. I say "low key" because not many professionals put him on display, but he does have DISGUSTING combos, follow ups, air mobility, epic edge gua
rding tools, mixups, great recovery.... Many will say "oh well he's so light!" I disagree considering he's essentially the heaviest "light" character in the game! Mewtwo, Jiggly, and G&W are HELLA light... (I think Sakurai has Kirby's weight exactly on the light/medium line). People don't take advantage of his duck at ALL: (ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5NspoXGOC8 )

Long story short, if one can actually take advantage of Kirby's skill set and avoid unnecessary damage (which applies to every character, yes...but Smash 4 is defense based, so it's not that difficult compared to other Smash titles), then the Kirby user will be completely fine.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy picking Kirby, but I don't really get surprised or hype when I'm victorious. Kinda like how when you pick Luigi...the winner using Luigi and the loser will both kinda shrug about it--that's the feeling I get with Kirby. I just have 0 satisfaction...especially using my 38293829 hit dair that spikes on each hitbox (poor heavy weight characters that end up below me), or d tilt (that seems to trip 90% of the time) into an f-smash.

And then he gets buffed recently. Lol?

 

[t!MmY]

Kinda like how when you pick Luigi...the winner using Luigi and the loser will both kinda shrug about it--that's the feeling I get with Kirby. I just have 0 satisfaction...

I was going to write a serious response to you, but upon reviewing what you wrote again I'm under the impression that you're just trolling.

 

[TJTheRager]

I was going to write a serious response to you, but upon reviewing what you wrote again I'm under the impression that you're just trolling.

No no, please do. Perhaps you can change my perception. It's just that Kirby has plenty of tools to deal with numerous situations--this is why I think if you put the time in, then Kirby is definitely *secretly* up there. He already a really good character.
Definitely let me know your thoughts and please keep every character in mind. (Including the heavies).

 

[t!MmY]

Definitely let me know your thoughts and please keep every character in mind. (Including the heavies).

Kirby is a character with lots of ups and downs. When you take a good Kirby player and put him up against a player who isn't very good, Kirby can look god-like. Kirby has many strong options and tools including combos, set-ups, and strong KOs, but that doesn't automatically make him Top Tier (or even 'secretly up there').

Take the same Kirby player, put him up against someone who knows the match-up and has a strong understanding of the game and Kirby stops looking like a monstrous combo machine. The core mechanics of this game, when understood and applied, can put a damper on Kirby's offense and sometimes shut it down completely. Directional Influence (DI) and Smash Directional Influence (SDI) alone can make a big enough difference where one player will be combo-food and another will take only moderate damage. When players apply concepts like spacing and zoning against Kirby then another major flaw of Kirby's play becomes exploited.

The strengths that you list for Kirby, such as his crouch, are useful but not game-breaking. They're not even over-powered. I would even hesitate to say that they're unusually stronger than any other character's general strengths. To go to such lengths as to just shrug when winning with Kirby, as if he has 'FREE WIN' tattooed on his face, just sounded like hyperbole or trolling to me.

To touch upon the 'heavy character' topic: I'm guessing it's mostly in regards to when you mention Kirby's Down Air and how it can gimp big, slow characters coming up from below. First, they're off-stage, they're in a bad position. If they get gimped, that's what happens (don't get knocked off-stage). Second, Kirby's D-air hits on frame 18; that should be plenty enough time to respond (not to mention Kirby's Air Speed is slow, which should make his impending approach even easier to see coming and avoid). If you get hit by it, it's your own fault (or the Kirby player was good enough to get you into that bad position and skilled enough to capitalize on it regardless of his molasses-like speed and wind-up clock D-air). Third, Kirby's D-air isn't even all that strong: relative to all the spikes/dunks/meteors that you can get hit with in the entirety of Smash 4, I think that Kirby's is pretty dang weak. It's so weak that the usual method for using D-air to gimp is to combo into a Footstool. This leads me to think that Kirby's D-air isn't much better than a generic Footstool attack that every character has.

Meanwhile the heavy characters don't even have to gimp Kirby, they can flat-out KO him with various attacks under 100%. This isn't really taking into account massive hits like Dedede F-smash, but I suppose you can take in account Ryu's Shoryuken which can start KO'ing Kirby in the 60's or Cloud's Finishing Touch which KOs Kirby in the 40's... or is it the 30's? And for how light he is, Kirby isn't especially floaty where he escapes from combos as easily as characters like Jigglypuff, Luigi, etc. He gets combo'd by Top Tiers just fine, like Sheik's F-tilt/D-throw to U-air or Zero Suit's U-air to Boost Kick.

I don't want to go on, so I hope I touched on enough to help you see a bigger picture and not think that those of us playing Kirby competitively don't know his strengths/limits. We do a lot of research & development with this character, so most of what you see here is probably fairly accurate.

 

[|RK|]

One minor correction - I believe Cloud's finishing touch KOs Kirby at 56% without rage. Not certain about Shoryuken, but I was sure it was 70-80 ish?

 

[t!MmY]

One minor correction - I believe Cloud's finishing touch KOs Kirby at 56% without rage. Not certain about Shoryuken, but I was sure it was 70-80 ish?

Shoryuken KO's Kirby at 68% (source), which is pretty ridiculous especially when you add in any damage he gets before comboing into the SRK. I'm still not entirely familiar with Cloud, but when he has a Limit Break he usually has some Rage going as well, which makes me wary at any point past 40%.

 

[|RK|]

Shoryuken KO's Kirby at 68% (source), which is pretty ridiculous especially when you add in any damage he gets before comboing into the SRK. I'm still not entirely familiar with Cloud, but when he has a Limit Break he usually has some Rage going as well, which makes me wary at any point past 40%.

Fair. I usually let Cloud charge limit at the start, so I don't worry about it too early.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think one of the biggest problems that Kirby has is how slow his air speed is. In Brawl, his air speed was better than Meta Knight's air speed, but that's no longer the case here.

Sadly, even with three pieces of Glider equipment, Kirby's air speed (maxing out at 1.08 with three Gliders) can never compete with Mario's 1.15 air speed value.