Social King K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: This...Is Our Finest Hour!

[Raxxel]

Someone needs to explain to me why they feel there's any reason to play Bowser (and possibly Ridley) over KKR.

Let's go down the list:
-super armor on several moves where he needs it most (like a juggle-breaking Nair)
-two projectiles that are good for either plowing through other projectiles or setting up traps
-the most damaging uthrow in the game
-a dthrow that buries opponents for a free followup
-three moves that spike, one of which has super armor
-a recovery that allows him to go INSANELY deep with a hitbox on top that makes it difficult to challenge
-a counter

Yes, he has a weakness in his belly plate being breakable, but the whole kit is just filled with so many great and interesting mechanics that I can't see how he won't be the best heavy in the game by FAR.

What does any other heavy have that can even begin to rival the king?

Honestly, comes down to playstyle, mood, and fondness of the character. I'm going to main both the Rids and Rool, and honestly who I play at any given time will just depend on the way I want to play and how I'm feeling. If I feel like doing more aerial, floaty combo stuff, as well as just wanting to play a darker, more serious character, I'll play Ridley. If I wanna play more grounded and defensive, as well as use a more light-hearted, goofy character, I'll play K. Rool.

 

[C-G]

Someone needs to explain to me why they feel there's any reason to play Bowser (and possibly Ridley) over KKR.

Let's go down the list:
-super armor on several moves where he needs it most (like a juggle-breaking Nair)
-two projectiles that are good for either plowing through other projectiles or setting up traps
-the most damaging uthrow in the game
-a dthrow that buries opponents for a free followup
-three moves that spike, one of which has super armor
-a recovery that allows him to go INSANELY deep with a hitbox on top that makes it difficult to challenge
-a counter

Yes, he has a weakness in his belly plate being breakable, but the whole kit is just filled with so many great and interesting mechanics that I can't see how he won't be the best heavy in the game by FAR.

What does any other heavy have that can even begin to rival the king?

DK and his grabs/boxing game is superior. I'd probably pick him for matches involving close range maulers like Mario and the Spacies.

As to 'why Bowser', I think Bowser's defense game is better. He still has a lot of armor, his attacks cover his body more completely, his OOS option is fantastic, and he has more low commitment options.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Someone needs to explain to me why they feel there's any reason to play Bowser (and possibly Ridley) over KKR.

What I NEED to know is why anyone would play as ANYONE other than K.Rool to begin with? The greatest, sexiest Nintendo character ever created!? In fact the character roster should JUST be 74 versions of K.Rool each wearing a different kostume.

 

[MERPIS]

DK and his grabs/boxing game is superior. I'd probably pick him for matches involving close range maulers like Mario and the Spacies.

As to 'why Bowser', I think Bowser's defense game is better. He still has a lot of armor, his attacks cover his body more completely, his OOS option is fantastic, and he has more low commitment options.

lol

 

[meleebrawler]

Someone needs to explain to me why they feel there's any reason to play Bowser (and possibly Ridley) over KKR.

Let's go down the list:
-super armor on several moves where he needs it most (like a juggle-breaking Nair)
-two projectiles that are good for either plowing through other projectiles or setting up traps
-the most damaging uthrow in the game
-a dthrow that buries opponents for a free followup
-three moves that spike, one of which has super armor
-a recovery that allows him to go INSANELY deep with a hitbox on top that makes it difficult to challenge
-a counter

Yes, he has a weakness in his belly plate being breakable, but the whole kit is just filled with so many great and interesting mechanics that I can't see how he won't be the best heavy in the game by FAR.

What does any other heavy have that can even begin to rival the king?

For Bowser:

-Faster.
-Tough Guy that doesn't shield break stun him.
-Better kill throws, full stop (K. Rool's burying throw will likely require a read since the bury is very short and people familiar WILL mash it).
-Better out-of-shield game with Whirling Fortress and a utilt that hits all around.
-Better frame data, especially on endlag. He can comfortably play footsies now that his jumpsquat is standard and landing lag is lowered. K. Rool will likely have to depend on his projectiles to make his footsies safe.

For Ridley, again he's just plain faster and has better frame data, to an even greater extent. A single read can get him full stage control, where he can use his potent edgeguarding via aerials supported by an extra jump, or his plasma breath. He is the Marth of heavies: doesn't have much that's really special or flashy, but his fundamentals are good enough to help him win anyway. Some people have speculated that his tail attacks can neutralize projectiles and his down b ignores shields when sweetspotted.

They both look to have a better air-to-air game thanks to having that one aerial with good frame data and coverage.

 

[MERPIS]

For Bowser:

-Faster.
-Tough Guy that doesn't shield break stun him.
-Better kill throws, full stop (K. Rool's burying throw will likely require a read since the bury is very short and people familiar WILL mash it).
-Better out-of-shield game with Whirling Fortress and a utilt that hits all around.
-Better frame data, especially on endlag. He can comfortably play footsies now that his jumpsquat is standard and landing lag is lowered. K. Rool will likely have to depend on his projectiles to make his footsies safe.

For Ridley, again he's just plain faster and has better frame data, to an even greater extent. A single read can get him full stage control, where he can use his potent edgeguarding via aerials supported by an extra jump, or his plasma breath. He is the Marth of heavies: doesn't have much that's really special or flashy, but his fundamentals are good enough to help him win anyway. Some people have speculated that his tail attacks can neutralize projectiles and his down b ignores shields when sweetspotted.

They both look to have a better air-to-air game thanks to having that one aerial with good frame data and coverage.

but which two are garbage tier and which one is utter god

 

[C-G]

but which two are garbage tier and which one is utter god

But no one brought up Pikachu......

 

[S_B]

I'd theorycraft further but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

The true test of a heavyweight is how well they deal with speedsters like Sheik, ZSS and Pika, and I feel like KKR still has the edge because he has the most tools to avoid getting carried to the ledge and edgeguarded.

But again, we'll have to wait and see because there's no point in speculating about a game with unoptimized characters.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

K. Rool is looking a high tier character very happy about that.

And I caught it the blunderbust is amiable from the suction capture I saw glimps of him point his gun behind him after sucking something in his gun then fires

 

[SmashKeks]

K. Rool is looking a high tier character very happy about that.

And I caught it the blunderbust is amiable from the suction capture I saw glimps of him point his gun behind him after sucking something in his gun then fires

To confirm our theory crafdting, and to our utter delight, the blunderbuss is as versatile as can be. It can fire a lone cannonball, it and vacuum instead, or it can fire a cannonball and then vacuum. I guess the only way it could be more utilized is if it could vacuum and then immediately fire a cannonball. I'm not a smart enough guy to speculate all the ways KKR Blunderbuss could and will be used, but I'm sure the mere versatility means it will have a lot of uses.

 

[MERPIS]

But no one brought up Pikachu......

obviously
pikachu is complete trash useless tier casual character some one get this YUGIOH out of my fighting game
K rool is a true character, he's a real chad, the beast ravages his opponents you can't stop him. REAL chad.

 

[S_B]

obviously
pikachu is complete trash useless tier casual character some one get this YUGIOH out of my fighting game
K rool is a true character, he's a real chad, the beast ravages his opponents you can't stop him. REAL chad.

Chadachu disagrees.

Tough guy may actually make Bowser a bit better against Pika than KRool, but I still feel like KKR will have better answers.

 

[MERPIS]

Chadachu disagrees.

Tough guy may actually make Bowser a bit better against Pika than KRool, but I still feel like KKR will have better answers.

because bowser is a fraud

 

[meleebrawler]

Chadachu disagrees.

Tough guy may actually make Bowser a bit better against Pika than KRool, but I still feel like KKR will have better answers.

How good will he be at not getting into the situations where he needs armour to escape, is the question.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Chadachu disagrees.

Tough guy may actually make Bowser a bit better against Pika than KRool, but I still feel like KKR will have better answers.

There aren't very many attacks that deal less than 19 units of knockback at 0% damage though, especially if their BKB values are set to 20 and above. I mean, even the sourspot for Zelda's f-air will make Bowser flinch, and its BKB is well below 20.

Anyway, Bowser may have the Tough Guy mechanic, but it's only really good against very weak attacks, unless he picks up a Super Mushroom and/or a Metal Box.

 

[C-G]

There aren't very many attacks that deal less than 19 units of knockback at 0% damage though, especially if their BKB values are set to 20 and above. I mean, even the sourspot for Zelda's f-air will make Bowser flinch, and its BKB is well below 20.

Are these numbers based on Wii U or Ultimate? They confirmed they increased the potency of Tough Guy in this version, so your numbers may be off now

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Are these numbers based on Wii U or Ultimate? They confirmed they increased the potency of Tough Guy in this version, so your numbers may be off now

Wait, Smash Ultimate increased the knockback-based heavy armor threshold? That does sound interesting, since in Smash 3DS / Wii U, any attack that dealt more than 19 units of knockback would make Bowser flinch.

 

[Questionmark222]

What worries me isn't 's potential viability, it's the fact that his amiibo is on Amazon.ca's best-sellers list and that it's out of stock (https://twitter.com/BringBackKRool/status/1063864058363838465) ... I should've preordered… I hope Nintendo will restock him as well as …

 

[Putuk]

Hey, I don't wanna dash anyones hopes or anything, but do you guys really think K. Rool will be high tier?
Heavyweights have traditionally been middling to low. I'm expecting more that he'll be mid tier. Sure, he has some really nice stuff on paper, but in praxis people will figure out how to work around that.

Not that that intimidates me as someone who mained Dedede in Smash 4.

 

[C-G]

Hey, I don't wanna dash anyones hopes or anything, but do you guys really think K. Rool will be high tier?
Heavyweights have traditionally been middling to low. I'm expecting more that he'll be mid tier. Sure, he has some really nice stuff on paper, but in praxis people will figure out how to work around that.

Not that that intimidates me as someone who mained Dedede in Smash 4.

Other than big hitboxes, KKR has literally none of the drawbacks in traditional heavies. He's got a fantastic disadvantage state, is fast, has a combo game, has good projectiles, and still has all the devastating power of being a heavy. There's a reason all the pros are putting him in the 'This character is a major threat' tier.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hey, I don't wanna dash anyones hopes or anything, but do you guys really think K. Rool will be high tier?
Heavyweights have traditionally been middling to low. I'm expecting more that he'll be mid tier. Sure, he has some really nice stuff on paper, but in praxis people will figure out how to work around that.

Not that that intimidates me as someone who mained Dedede in Smash 4.

He lives long, can recover very well, has a great neutral game, zoning game and disadvantage state, good range and movement options, and of course is one of the strongest characters in the game. I say he’s gonna do well. He will not fare too well against extremely fast characters as Diddy, Sheik,Young Link and Pikachu, but will do well against the likes of Marth, Bayonetta, Ike, Snake, and the likes.

 

[MERPIS]

He lives long, can recover very well, has a great neutral game, zoning game and disadvantage state, good range and movement options, and of course is one of the strongest characters in the game. I say he’s gonna do well. He will not fare too well against extremely fast characters as Diddy, Sheik,Young Link and Pikachu, but will do well against the likes of Marth, Bayonetta, Ike, Snake, and the likes.

If he has a good matchup against bayonetta I will actually quit this game entirely and rethink my life up until that point

 

[Diddy Kong]

If he has a good matchup against bayonetta I will actually quit this game entirely and rethink my life up until that point

On paper it’s quite possible he’s good vs her. He matches her speed, got more range, has the projectiles to deal with her, can escape her combos with N Air most likely and can kill her much earlier than Bayonetta can kill K.Rool.

But as said, the potential Top Tiers at this moment; Young Link, Pikachu, Diddy and Sheik will destroy him.

Characters I’d say he works well against: Marth, Ike, Rosalina, Snake, Pokémon Trainer (except Squirtle maybe), Bayonetta, Mario, Ryu, DK.

 

[meleebrawler]

Other than big hitboxes, KKR has literally none of the drawbacks in traditional heavies. He's got a fantastic disadvantage state, is fast, has a combo game, has good projectiles, and still has all the devastating power of being a heavy. There's a reason all the pros are putting him in the 'This character is a major threat' tier.

"Fantastic" disadvantage? It's better than average for a superheavy, but everyone knows how to play around counters and using the nair too much will get him in an even worse situation. Besides all that he's still fat and doesn't have a great airspeed or mobility specials. Every heavy has a better combo game than they've ever had with improved landing lag and jumpsquats. And while his recovery has good distance with decent protection from above and speed, it's inflexible: the pack can't be stopped or cancelled once activated and leaves him helpless, so he pretty much has to grab the ledge using it or he'll be punished for sure. And it's not like this is Smash 4 where he can just air dodge till he gets low enough.

 

[MERPIS]

On paper it’s quite possible he’s good vs her. He matches her speed, got more range, has the projectiles to deal with her, can escape her combos with N Air most likely and can kill her much earlier than Bayonetta can kill K.Rool.

But as said, the potential Top Tiers at this moment; Young Link, Pikachu, Diddy and Sheik will destroy him.

Characters I’d say he works well against: Marth, Ike, Rosalina, Snake, Pokémon Trainer (except Squirtle maybe), Bayonetta, Mario, Ryu, DK.

How he doing against Oli and Mewtwo?

 

[S_B]

because bowser is a fraud

All fat reptiles are in this together.

It's us against the speedy little ******** who usually dominate the competitive scene.

"Fantastic" disadvantage? It's better than average for a superheavy, but everyone knows how to play around counters and using the nair too much will get him in an even worse situation. Besides all that he's still fat and doesn't have a great airspeed or mobility specials. Every heavy has a better combo game than they've ever had with improved landing lag and jumpsquats. And while his recovery has good distance with decent protection from above and speed, it's inflexible: the pack can't be stopped or cancelled once activated and leaves him helpless, so he pretty much has to grab the ledge using it or he'll be punished for sure. And it's not like this is Smash 4 where he can just air dodge till he gets low enough.

Part of the challenge of playing him will be using SA carefully to get things done. For example, when Bayo is ladder comboing you to the top of the screen and you're likely to die anyway, it's a pretty good time to take a belly crack to SA her attack.

I believe witch twist still has decent priority, which means that a hitbox backed by SA is one of the few things that can beat it reliably.

In my wildest dreams, Bowser's speedier klaw would allow him to klaw Bayo after she carries him to the top of the screen, at which point he rises up with her, literally carrying her into the blastzone but of his own volition so he doesn't get KOed.

Overall, I just hope superheavies aren't invalidated by the speedsters. If even ONE can go even against the likes of YL, Sheik, Pika, etc., it'll be a victory that heavies have never before had in smash history.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Hey, I don't wanna dash anyones hopes or anything, but do you guys really think K. Rool will be high tier?
Heavyweights have traditionally been middling to low. I'm expecting more that he'll be mid tier. Sure, he has some really nice stuff on paper, but in praxis people will figure out how to work around that.

Not that that intimidates me as someone who mained Dedede in Smash 4.

I'm kind of concerned that the lack of the Tough Guy mechanic could be a problem for King K. Rool if something as weak as Mega Man's pellets can easily make him flinch; he can't just super armor everything if the armor is going to break.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

Oh well. I'm just happy that King K Rool is moving and grooving in 2018 in one of Nintendo's biggest titles.

 

[SmashKeks]

Oh well. I'm just happy that King K Rool is moving and grooving in 2018 in one of Nintendo's biggest titles.

I'm still eagerly awaiting any news of a new K. Rool appearance outside of Smash. A New DK game, a DLC character for Mario Kart/Tennis/Party, as the figure head of his new spinoff series K. Rool's strip poker, anything!

 

[Diddy Kong]

How he doing against Oli and Mewtwo?

He'll probably get bodied against both, especially Olimar if he's REALLY this scary. Olimar will just camp him out probably. Big target for the Pikmin to hit, so K.Rool will receive big damage quickly. Mewtwo also will hit K.Rool hard and heavy, and projectiles won't do Mewtwo much. Mewtwo also seems to live much longer this time, and Shadow Ball is still scary, N Air will combo K.Rool into anything, Mewtwo hits just about as hard as K.Rool... yeah, I see K.Rool losing both. But Mewtwo and Olimar might be Top Tier anyway.

 

[meleebrawler]

He'll probably get bodied against both, especially Olimar if he's REALLY this scary. Olimar will just camp him out probably. Big target for the Pikmin to hit, so K.Rool will receive big damage quickly. Mewtwo also will hit K.Rool hard and heavy, and projectiles won't do Mewtwo much. Mewtwo also seems to live much longer this time, and Shadow Ball is still scary, N Air will combo K.Rool into anything, Mewtwo hits just about as hard as K.Rool... yeah, I see K.Rool losing both. But Mewtwo and Olimar might be Top Tier anyway.

Couldn't K. Rool just nair the Pikmin off him? Most are flinchless and thus won't damage his armour. Then once you've killed them that way and he's forced to pluck more you have an opportunity to throw your crown and approach. You could also hop and fire a kannonball to create a "shield" blocking a single thrown Pikmin at that altitude.

All fat reptiles are in this together.

It's us against the speedy little ******** who usually dominate the competitive scene.



Part of the challenge of playing him will be using SA carefully to get things done. For example, when Bayo is ladder comboing you to the top of the screen and you're likely to die anyway, it's a pretty good time to take a belly crack to SA her attack.

I believe witch twist still has decent priority, which means that a hitbox backed by SA is one of the few things that can beat it reliably.

In my wildest dreams, Bowser's speedier klaw would allow him to klaw Bayo after she carries him to the top of the screen, at which point he rises up with her, literally carrying her into the blastzone but of his own volition so he doesn't get KOed.

Overall, I just hope superheavies aren't invalidated by the speedsters. If even ONE can go even against the likes of YL, Sheik, Pika, etc., it'll be a victory that heavies have never before had in smash history.

The main thing closing the gap between the heavies and speedsters is that the former are no longer as deficient in their combo capabilities with more standardized movement and landing lag, letting really capitalize on their higher damage output.

 

[MERPIS]

All fat reptiles are in this together.

It's us against the speedy little ******** who usually dominate the competitive scene.



Part of the challenge of playing him will be using SA carefully to get things done. For example, when Bayo is ladder comboing you to the top of the screen and you're likely to die anyway, it's a pretty good time to take a belly crack to SA her attack.

I believe witch twist still has decent priority, which means that a hitbox backed by SA is one of the few things that can beat it reliably.

In my wildest dreams, Bowser's speedier klaw would allow him to klaw Bayo after she carries him to the top of the screen, at which point he rises up with her, literally carrying her into the blastzone but of his own volition so he doesn't get KOed.

Overall, I just hope superheavies aren't invalidated by the speedsters. If even ONE can go even against the likes of YL, Sheik, Pika, etc., it'll be a victory that heavies have never before had in smash history.

Thing is, netta's kill power now is legit arse against pretty much anything, one game I saw had DK live until over 200% both stocks, so k rool shouldn't be dying that early, and all it takes is one dthrow or bair and she's dead at like, 65%
Also I doubt sheik is gonna merc him that badly at worst it'll be like -0.5

 

[Fell God]

If his projectiles can do at least a serviceable job at slowing approaches, I think he'll be good enough to contend with most characters.

 

[C-G]

"Fantastic" disadvantage? It's better than average for a superheavy, but everyone knows how to play around counters and using the nair too much will get him in an even worse situation. Besides all that he's still fat and doesn't have a great airspeed or mobility specials. Every heavy has a better combo game than they've ever had with improved landing lag and jumpsquats. And while his recovery has good distance with decent protection from above and speed, it's inflexible: the pack can't be stopped or cancelled once activated and leaves him helpless, so he pretty much has to grab the ledge using it or he'll be punished for sure. And it's not like this is Smash 4 where he can just air dodge till he gets low enough.

Using Nair Too Much is kind of a non-factor regarding disadvantage state. So long as he tanks a single hit, he's able to make it back to the ground. It's not like you burn all three hits of armor on descent.

Also don't forget he has the option to air stall via UpAir.

 

[S_B]

Thing is, netta's kill power now is legit arse against pretty much anything, one game I saw had DK live until over 200% both stocks, so k rool shouldn't be dying that early, and all it takes is one dthrow or bair and she's dead at like, 65%
Also I doubt sheik is gonna merc him that badly at worst it'll be like -0.5

I hope to god you're right.

Another generation of competitive SSB dominated by speedy characters would be a tragedy.

 

[MERPIS]

I hope to god you're right.

Another generation of competitive SSB dominated by speedy characters would be a tragedy.

Don't think you're out of the woods just yet Mewtwo got a huge weight buff he might be heavier than Mario now
You got another speed boy to worry about
Outside of Mewtwo though, netta actually got gutted so she might be out of the picture slightly. And its not that speedy characters aren't gonna dominate they'll ALWAYS be good, you can't make them bad, certain ones like Sonic and Diddy and Sheik will always be amazing due to the game's mechanics, its combo oriented and they're all like that, the only exception was brawl but that was the metta where literally the only fast top tier was Meta Knight and Diddy, I don't count marth or Pikachu, one isn't all that fast and one isn't top tier. Anyways Meta Knight in brawl was top tier primarily not due to his combos but due to his literal everything else. And diddy has stage control up the wazoo. Speed bois weren't good because the mechanics as a whole murdered them. Literally get rid of hitstun and all of a sudden every fast character except for maybe Mewtwo and Cloud and Diddy would drop dead. Speedy characters are good because the game supports them. We're lucky this game has a little more variety in the top tiers with Oli, K rool, Netta sadly, Lucario(?), and ike.

 

[S_B]

Don't think you're out of the woods just yet Mewtwo got a huge weight buff he might be heavier than Mario now
You got another speed boy to worry about

M2 still isn't a "speed boy" by the same definition, though. Sure, he's faster, but he's not an oppressive wall of hitboxes like some of the others.

The speedy ones that are going to suck the most to deal with are Young Link, Pikachu, Sheik, and possibly some others (C.Falcon looks quite fast this time around as well). These are the characters that will make it hard to find any room to breathe as a heavyweight, but the better frame data for heavies in general may at least even the playing field to the point where it balances out.

 

[MERPIS]

M2 still isn't a "speed boy" by the same definition, though. Sure, he's faster, but he's not an oppressive wall of hitboxes like some of the others.

The speedy ones that are going to suck the most to deal with are Young Link, Pikachu, Sheik, and possibly some others (C.Falcon looks quite fast this time around as well). These are the characters that will make it hard to find any room to breathe as a heavyweight, but the better frame data for heavies in general may at least even the playing field to the point where it balances out.

(cough)

Outside of Mewtwo though, netta actually got gutted so she might be out of the picture slightly. And its not that speedy characters aren't gonna dominate they'll ALWAYS be good, you can't make them bad, certain ones like Sonic and Diddy and Sheik will always be amazing due to the game's mechanics, its combo oriented and they're all like that, the only exception was brawl but that was the metta where literally the only fast top tier was Meta Knight and Diddy, I don't count marth or Pikachu, one isn't all that fast and one isn't top tier. Anyways Meta Knight in brawl was top tier primarily not due to his combos but due to his literal everything else. And diddy has stage control up the wazoo. Speed bois weren't good because the mechanics as a whole murdered them. Literally get rid of hitstun and all of a sudden every fast character except for maybe Mewtwo and Cloud and Diddy would drop dead. Speedy characters are good because the game supports them. We're lucky this game has a little more variety in the top tiers with Oli, K rool, Netta sadly, Lucario(?), and ike

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

8 player King K . Rool battle.
Giant Smash.

Giant Mushrooms only.
And party balls.

 

[S_B]

(cough)

Right, but there's a huge difference between being tougher matchups and losing matchups.

So long as there's no character in this game which every heavy goes 30-70 against, I'll be happy.

Even better would be if every speedster has at least one heavy that goes even with them, then a heavy mainer has a solid arsenal to choose from.