King Dedede's future design: suggestion to the PMDT

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
#1
Hello all,

I've made this thread because I've got some great ideas that I feel can expand ddds gameplay, and id like to hear more of the community's opinion on what ddds future is, as well as the development teams opinion and insights on the current iteration of the character (if any of them decide to participate). below is a list of design goals that I feel are very applicable to this discussion:

Risk vs reward
Normalization (to some degree)
Stimulation of creative gameplay
Dynamic MUs and MU spreads

I encourage people to think about DDD in terms of these, or other design goals put forth that are destined to direct the future of the game, as I feel like there hasn't been a ton of creative discussion centered around 3.5 DDD or his future.

Moving on, I have a list of modifications to DDD that I believe would only benefit the game's mu spread as a whole, increase thoughtful and creative gameplay, and appeal to players as being fun. They are as follows:

1. I feel that a slight recovery Nerf is in order. I'm going to put this out there in saying that I feel DDD has arguably the best recovery in the game, maybe tied with Kirby. With 3 jumps, undeniably amazing coverage on return (between waddle tosses and his aerials), and one of the highest reaching up bs in the game (not to mention its mixup potential with landing, sweet spotting, and reverse ledge grabbing), it's clear that his ability to survive is basically unparalleled considering he's. the 3rd heaviest in the game with the 9th(?) fastest falling speed. Honestly, I think it should stay that way, but up b could stand to be shortened by maybe half of his character length. It would just take some of the fat off. Honestly, no other character has the recovery options he does, and at the moment, it might be just a bit over done, and even without jumps, his recovery has more options than almost every other character.

2. slightly decreased traction (traction on waddle toss remains unchanged), and more noticeable moonwalk. The moonwalk will just give him an additional, basic, fundamental movement option for positioning and mix ups. Its nothing game breaking, but its enough to enhance the creativity of a nuanced play style. Decreased traction results in two equally important things. The first is, again, a minor improvement to his movement options. With a frame 6 jump squat already, and high start up normals (effectively 11 for jab and 12 for ftilt), I believe this tweak can help even out some lopsided MUs, without polarizing his already good ones. The second thing the decreased traction does is reduce his effective OOS grab range. Though minor, this small change can be important for nuanced spacing in MUs against chars like marth, Roy, and ike, ones he's considered to have a good advantage in. Overall he's very polarized into the extremese with certain attribute (terrible mobility and huge grab range). This just slightly normalizes these attributes.

3. A slightly decreased grab range OOS creates a thoughtful dynamic with this next change: decreasing the start up on both the armor and attack portion of grounded up b. This has been talked about in other places, but I think its something that should be taken seriously. Make grounded armor come out on frame 5 from 7, giving him an overall frame 6 OOS option for weak attacks. The attack can be decreased to 12 frames from 14. This simply encourages your opponent to mix up their pressure on your shield without being too strong. Plenty of characters have lower commitment moves that have near instantaneous invincibility or attacks (bowser, dk, zard, samus, gw, snake, and more). This also promotes DDD players to make use of platform canceling the up b, a rather challenging feat that rewards player skill, and overall is not an overbearing attribute on the opponent.

4. Increased range and damage for a grounded side b and increased odds of throwing a gordo (maybe 1 in 12). Additionally, less angles and no tilt throw. This can discourage an opponent from camping, but at the same time it doesn't really allow ddd to gain favorable space due to the move's 63 frame end lag. this also means that DDD can't throw waddle dees as close, meaning he is still encouraged to go airborne to throw waddles, as well as exploit the increased mobility options listed in point 2. This would improve some of his lopsided must, like pit, lucas, tink, and ivysaur.

Overall, I believe these changes will contribute to DDD players demonstrating an increased creativity during gameplay. More tools will be considered for their adjusted risk/reward dynamic, and there are fair tradeoffs that contribute to a slightly smoother MU spread. The Lucas, pit, ivysaur, and tink MUs are a few that i believe are currently bad but could get slightly better from the increased mobility and side b changes. MUs where DDD heavily excels, like Roy, marth,ike, and cf would get less polarized as well since they can edge guard a bit easier. At the same time, ddds character is preserved, and his unique, somewhat polarized play style is still left in tact for him to occupy his niche.

I am curious to see what others think in this regard. I believe I've proposed a very fair list of modifications that will only enhance creative gameplay, while meeting design goals of risk-reward management, with a slight direction toward normalization.
 
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G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
#3
That was a very constructive post. Glad you came with ideas to contribute. As I stated, they weren't supposed to take bad MUs and flip them around. Its about making them less polarized, and expanding options during play so that you can develop a more creative style.I believe DDD should have a relatively polarized mu spread, but if you can take some of those more extreme MUs and make them a bit more fun for both sides, even if you're only taking a -2 and making it a -1, then why not? The design already is also what's important, and that's kinda what I wanted to center this thread on. It's not a match up thread really
 
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L Pag

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
125
Location
Long Island
3DS FC
2191-7643-9888
#5
Even though Ripple wasn't very constructive with his post, he's kind of right. The only point I can really agree on in this post is shortening Dedede's up b a bit, as it's pretty good as it is right now. But at the same time, it's not that hard to edge guard due to it's inability to sweetspot the ledge and lack of priority. Decreasing traction wouldn't help too much either. Dedede may not have the best wavedash, but the main problem there is that he has a huge jump squat, making it slow. And on top of that, a moonwalk wouldn't help Dedede at all. In PM, moonwalks are really only good as a grounded approach mixup, grabbing the ledge, and getting off stage backwards (and even then, PM offers better options for the last 2), and since Dedede isn't exactly gonna be dash dancing out of a characters range and mixing up approach on the ground, he's not exactly gonna need a moonwalk. As for his OOS options, they need to be adjusted a bit imo, but that's definitely not the way to go about it. His grab range is fine, considering he has no other option coverage OOS and a lot of what Dedede can do is from his grab. Trying to make Up B an OOS option is just silly, as it has little knockback and too much landing lag for it to be safe, even if it's given more armor/comes out sooner, and adjusting the knockback and landing lag to make it safe would indirectly buff Dedede where he doesn't need it.

As for Side B, again, it needs to be changed, but that's not the way to go about it. Gordos really only cause a problem for Dedede right now, as they can mess up your recover and move at an angle different than waddles, making them unreliable as a projectile due to their poor accuracy. The only way to really fix gordos is to make them move at the same angle and speed as waddles, and make it so you can waddle dash using a gordo (which is honestly a bad idea, unless it's given a nerf specifically with Gordos. I've always thought being able to waddle dash once, but then the Gordo will disappear after the waddle dash would be okay, since it would prevent a giant ball of death giving Dedede movement and still having a hitbox, but will also make off screen waddle dashing a lot less risky.). As for the speed in which you throw waddles, I do think it should be reduced, but only by a few frames. Rethrowing a waddle is significantly faster, and since you can only rethrow at a distance equivalent to a soft/tilt toss, then it's clear that the move is designed to be slow for long range, but fast for short range, providing you have a waddle near you. Personally, I don't feel this is the best design, but something like this is hard to fix (maybe make it so tilt throws just come out as fast as a rethrow?).

Giving Dedede less angles on these would be a huge nerf to Dedede as well, as that would limit his movement with waddle dashing, anti-air options, it would pretty much render rising zee tosses useless, and it would only make Dedede worse as a character.

Also, Dedede doesn't really beat Marth or Roy by a lot. Marth still has a lot of tools against Dedede, and Roy, arguably the worse MU here, can still combo Dedede really hard as well as kill him very early. I also don't really think Dedede loses against Lucas much, as Lucas really only has snowballs and shield pressure there (and Dedede can nair or shield the snowballs pretty effectively).

Pretty much all of these changes would change Dedede too much, nerf him (and not in any way that would make him more balanced), or wouldn't help his MU spread at all.
 

CuteDogIRL

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
14
#6
I don't see a problem with the up b. His up b is easy to edgeguard leaving lot's of room for early kills (just not in the same way a shine spike or something like that would kill). You really don't have as many options as you make it seem (sweet spotting isn't possible for example).

But on the other hand it helps him a lot with gimping (my favorite part) because you can go out really far hit someone with a fair and still come back or you can not go out as far and simply use the freedom you get to do a ton of aerial attacks without having to grab the ledge in between using your jumps and still come back with the up b.

I just don't see why you would nerf one of his biggest strengths when it's not even op. I always saw the really far reaching recovery as one of the things that make him special. Taking it away is like nerfing the hitstun of falcos shine because normal moves dont have that much hitstun.

Also I don't know what would be the best way to go about it but oos options would be nice. Also the things I said in the other thread about changes in the next patch. But apart from removing/changing gordo's I don't think he needs big changes.
 

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
#7
Just for curiosity sake, do you play League of Legends @ G13_Flux G13_Flux ?
I do not play league.

Even though Ripple wasn't very constructive with his post, he's kind of right. The only point I can really agree on in this post is shortening Dedede's up b a bit, as it's pretty good as it is right now. But at the same time, it's not that hard to edge guard due to it's inability to sweetspot the ledge and lack of priority. Decreasing traction wouldn't help too much either. Dedede may not have the best wavedash, but the main problem there is that he has a huge jump squat, making it slow. And on top of that, a moonwalk wouldn't help Dedede at all. In PM, moonwalks are really only good as a grounded approach mixup, grabbing the ledge, and getting off stage backwards (and even then, PM offers better options for the last 2), and since Dedede isn't exactly gonna be dash dancing out of a characters range and mixing up approach on the ground, he's not exactly gonna need a moonwalk. As for his OOS options, they need to be adjusted a bit imo, but that's definitely not the way to go about it. His grab range is fine, considering he has no other option coverage OOS and a lot of what Dedede can do is from his grab. Trying to make Up B an OOS option is just silly, as it has little knockback and too much landing lag for it to be safe, even if it's given more armor/comes out sooner, and adjusting the knockback and landing lag to make it safe would indirectly buff Dedede where he doesn't need it.

As for Side B, again, it needs to be changed, but that's not the way to go about it. Gordos really only cause a problem for Dedede right now, as they can mess up your recover and move at an angle different than waddles, making them unreliable as a projectile due to their poor accuracy. The only way to really fix gordos is to make them move at the same angle and speed as waddles, and make it so you can waddle dash using a gordo (which is honestly a bad idea, unless it's given a nerf specifically with Gordos. I've always thought being able to waddle dash once, but then the Gordo will disappear after the waddle dash would be okay, since it would prevent a giant ball of death giving Dedede movement and still having a hitbox, but will also make off screen waddle dashing a lot less risky.). As for the speed in which you throw waddles, I do think it should be reduced, but only by a few frames. Rethrowing a waddle is significantly faster, and since you can only rethrow at a distance equivalent to a soft/tilt toss, then it's clear that the move is designed to be slow for long range, but fast for short range, providing you have a waddle near you. Personally, I don't feel this is the best design, but something like this is hard to fix (maybe make it so tilt throws just come out as fast as a rethrow?).

Giving Dedede less angles on these would be a huge nerf to Dedede as well, as that would limit his movement with waddle dashing, anti-air options, it would pretty much render rising zee tosses useless, and it would only make Dedede worse as a character.

Also, Dedede doesn't really beat Marth or Roy by a lot. Marth still has a lot of tools against Dedede, and Roy, arguably the worse MU here, can still combo Dedede really hard as well as kill him very early. I also don't really think Dedede loses against Lucas much, as Lucas really only has snowballs and shield pressure there (and Dedede can nair or shield the snowballs pretty effectively).

Pretty much all of these changes would change Dedede too much, nerf him (and not in any way that would make him more balanced), or wouldn't help his MU spread at all.
Ripple isn't entirely wrong. I'm not going to say that my purposed change list will fix his problematic MUs, because it's still going to leave them relatively the same. The differences im going for are very marginal, and like I said they will only marginally change certain aspects of those MUs. Those smaller scale changes however, are geared for more than just MU spreads. Even if you and ripple are 100 percent right, I still think those changes should be implemented. There were several other points on my list that id like people to consider, which explain and give validity to why I think they're good changes.

Risk vs reward assessment
Normalization
Simulation of creative game play

The movement options I've proposed, while slight are buffs that I really do feel will make a difference. Even small adjustments can take a character that's almost perfectly designed, and give them just the right amount of balance. Even with these changes, he's still going to be basically the slowest character in the game besides link. Now I think it should stay this way, but if you give him just a couple improvements on the way he moves around the stage, it will allow players to get more creative, as well as make slight impacts in certain MUs that will improve the player interaction dynamic (not necessarily fix the match up; it doesn't need to do that to warrant change, imo). it's not fixing the fact that DDD has bad mobility, its just bringing options to the character that bring him more in slightly more in line with the rest of the cast in terms of creativity with movement. Moonwalks still have uses in pm, and even the slight positioning it could allow him will benefit his overall feel as a character. He's got a great bair, and encouraging him to use something like a moonwalk in conjunction with it would be good for gameplay. Having a lower traction would also result in longer wave lands, improving his air to ground transition, which is very bad at the moment (long lag aerials, and high empty landing lag).

What you mentioned about his jump squat is very true however. It is rather long and only him and bowser have that characteristic. Both this, and the empty landing lag are things that I agree should be considered as well for normalization purposes, and overall comfortability. Whatever (if anything) is done, I do think that movement is something that's going to be key to helping his less than favorable MUs.

The grounded up b OOS buff is a classic risk vs reward adjustment, and I don't believe it's silly at all. Rather, I think it's quite practical. This takes an option that is very risky to use, and givse it some rewarding characteristics. A quick escape, possibility to edge cancel off a platform (if your technical precision is good), and at the same, there is still the possibility for counter play on your opponents part. The creates a better OOS dynamic than his current version. It give you more incentive to use grounded up b, for its speed and range, but it's also more risky. It can get you out of situations where a grab wouldn't do it, but you have to risk getting punished more easily. Look at other moves like bowsers, dks, and zards up bs. They all have invincibility either instantly, or within a couple frames. Bowsers and dks aren't evenpunished terribly easily. THis change to DDD would only allow to be more creative by using more options. Iirc, its a change @ Ripple Ripple called for at one point.

While my iteration of grounded side b probably isn't the best one, I still think something should be done to actually give you an incentive to use it. Why would you really use a grounded toss right now? It's too much risk, and theres not enough reward for it. An aerial toss is usually better. If there was a dynamic between choosing which one to use in a given situation, with appropriate risk and reward, this would only expand gameplay and make it more interesting and creative.

Like I said, there's a huge consideration for creativity within the game that drives me to suggest them. MU results aren't everything here. More of it is really MU dynamics, or player to player interaction, which is of big concern to the pmdt.
 

ForgottenLabRat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
240
Location
Lafayette CO
#8
I want waddle dees to have a hit box if you hit relative to the damage taken, so DDD can smash a daddle dee to make it go flying.This would be interesting because in midair, DDD can through a WD, jump then hit it making for some interesting recovery options. I think this would allow for more depth the character(not that there already isn't) but most is always betters. This wouldn't be too hard to balance as the angles would remain unchanged meaning they are being launched at a strange 30 degreeish angle, so it won't be super practical would allow for some hella style.
 
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jack.f

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
6
#9
maybe an uptilt like ice climber's and what if waddle's stopped next to you when you land like lasers. It wouldn't be broken cause you have to jump 2 times with his poor jump squat, so like a little more than 12 frames depending on your fast fall for a waddle dash. Or give the dees and doos slightly better AI, like actually walking at an opponent and attacking them.
 

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
#10
well what do you guys think of the changes? honestly, im a fan of the up smash buff. the dair nerf is almost fair, but i really dont think the neutral b nerf had any justification. the move already takes like 70 frames and is by far the longest command grab. its not like it even has quick start up or tremendous disjoint either. however, i dont believe either nerf will affect his overall effectiveness too much.

I still want to see the up b buff ive mentioned. Id like to see it actually get some good use. The only other I think is fair to change at this point is that he needs his jumpsquat lowered to 5 and his empty landing lag lowered to 4 or 5 (preferably 4, like 97% of the rest of the cast). At this point, i cant understand why the PMDT is keeping bowser and DDD with a 6 frame jumpsquat and landing lag. it just doesnt make sense, and theyre huge outliers. Outliers arent neccesarily bad, but they need to be less of the outliers in that regards. you could argue that theyre heavies, but why doesnt DK share the same properties? its just odd

overall I still think hes a great character, but id like to see the PMDT make the last couple meaningful tweaks this character needs (not changes, just tweaks).
 
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