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King Dedede's Frame Data [Down Throw advantages complete]

KuroganeHammer

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Okay, so I'll cut to the chase; you guys have hardly any of this stuff. No idea why a high tier character doesn't have this stuff already but w/e.

This is a work in progress.

I'm currently testing it all in Frame Advance, for you newcomers here's a short list of term explanations:

Hitbox Active: When the hitboxes are active. Frames before these are start up frames.
Shield Hitlag: When both you and the defender are "frozen" in place. The defender can ISSDI during these frames.
Shieldstun: The amount of frames directly after shield hitlag that the opponent cannot do anything.
Base Damage: Duh.
Minimum Duration: Basically this is Minimum Duration.
First Actionable Frame: Better known as IASA frames. Except IASA frames is a bit of a misnomer so we use this term now.


[collapse=Standard Ground Moves]Jab1

Hitbox Active - 12-13
Shield Hitlag - 7
Shieldstun - 2
Base Damage - 6%
Minimum Duration - 37
FAF - 38

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -23, (Normal Shield Drop) -16

Jab2

Hitboxes Active - 11-12
Shield Hitlag - 6
Shieldstun - 1
Base Damage - 5%
Minimum Duration - 49
FAF - 50

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -15, (Normal Shield Drop) -8


Jab3

Hitbox Active - 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 41
Shield Hitlag - 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
Shieldstun - 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0
Base Damage - 2% (All hits)
Minimum Duration - 105
FAF - 106

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -53, -50, -47, -44, -41, -38, -35, -32, -29, -26, -23, -20, -17, -14, (Normal Shield Drop) -46, -43, -40, -37, -34, -31, -28, -25, -22, -19, -16, -13, -10, -7 (lol)


Dash Attack

Hitboxes Active - 26-35
Shield Hitlag - 11
Shieldstun - 5
Base Damage - 16%, 14% (the weaker hitbox is behind Dedede)
Minimum Duration - 66
FAF - 67
Shield Damage - 3

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -35, (Normal Shield Drop) -28

Ftilt

Hitboxes Active - 12-15, 16-22
Shield Hitlag - 7, 6
Shieldstun - 2, 1
Base Damage - 6%, 4%
Minimum Duration - 42
FAF - 43

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -28, (Normal Shield Drop) -21


Dtilt

Hitboxes Active - 7-9, 10-18
Shield Hitlag - 8, 7
Shieldstun - 3, 2
Base Damage - 10%, 6%
Minimum Duration - 35
FAF - 36

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -26, (Normal Shield Drop) -19


Utilt

Intangibility - 7-8
Hitboxes Active - 7-15
Shield Hitlag - 9
Shieldstun - 4
Base Damage - 12%
Minimum Duration - 39
FAF - 40

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -28, (Normal Shield Drop) -21


Forward Smash

Hitboxes Active - 42-43, 44-46, 47-54
Shield Hitlag - 10, 14, 6
Shieldstun - 4, 8, 1
Base Damage - 13%, 24%, 5%
Minimum Duration - 81
FAF - 82

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -36, (Normal Shield Drop) -29


Up Smash

Hitboxes Active - 20-24
Shield Hitlag - 10
Shieldstun - 5
Base Damage - 14%, 9% (The 9% hit is the handle of the hammer, very unlikely to hit)
Minimum Duration - 67
FAF - 68

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -42, (Normal Shield Drop) -35


Down Smash

Hitboxes Active - 14-23
Shield Hitlag - 10
Shieldstun - 5
Base Damage - 15%
Minimum Duration - 52
FAF - 53

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -34, (Normal Shield Drop) -27 [/collapse]

[collapse=Standard Aerial Moves]Nair

Autocancel Frames - 1-2, 34-40
Hitboxes Active - 7-8, 9-29
Shield Hitlag - 9, 7
Shieldstun - 4, 2
Base Damage - 12%, 7%
Minimum Duration - 39
FAF - 40

Landing Lag: 15

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -28, (Normal Shield Drop) -21


Fair

Autocancel Frames - 1-4, 34-37
Hitboxes Active - 16-18
Shield Hitlag - 10
Shieldstun - 5
Base Damage - 15%
Minimum Duration - 36
FAF - 37

Landing Lag: 30

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -16, (Normal Shield Drop) -9

Bair

Autocancel Frames - 1-4, 25-33
Hitboxes Active - 6-8, 9-25
Shield Hitlag - 10, 8
Shieldstun - 4, 3
Base Damage - 13%, 9%
Minimum Duration - 32
FAF - 33

Landing Lag: 21

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -22, (Normal Shield Drop) -15

Dair

Autocancel Frames - 1-6, 43-48
Hitboxes Active - 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27
Shield Hitlag - 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
Shieldstun - 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1
Base Damage - 2% (first 6 hits), 5%
Minimum Duration - 47
FAF - 48

Landing Lag: 30

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -37, -34, -31, -28, -25, -22, -19, (Normal Shield Drop) -30, -27, -24, -21, -18, -15, -12,

Uair

Autocancel Frames - 1-4, 41-44
Hitboxes Active - 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24-25
Shield Hitlag - 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
Shieldstun - 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1
Base Damage - 2% (first 7 hits), 5%
Minimum Duration - 44
FAF - 45

Landing Lag: 22

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -33, -31, -29, -27, -25, -23, -21, -19, (Normal Shield Drop) -26, -24, -22, -20, -18, -16, -14, -12 [/collapse]

[collapse=Special Moves]Swallow

Hitboxes Active - 17-53?
Shield Hitlag - N/A
Shieldstun - N/A
Minimum Duration - 77
FAF - 78

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) lol, (Normal Shield Drop) lol


Super Dedede Jump

Intangibility - 22-25 <--- I don't even understand the point of a meager 4 frames intangibility
Super Armor Frames - 26-45
Hitboxes Active - 73-87, 90-91, 92-109
Shield Hitlag -
Shieldstun -
Minimum Duration - 147
FAF - 148

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -70, -55, -34, (Normal Shield Drop) -63, -48, -27

Waddle Toss

Hitboxes Active - 18-??
Shield Hitlag -
Shieldstun -
Minimum Duration - 63
FAF - 64

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -39, (Normal Shield Drop) -32


Jet Hammer

Hitboxes Active - 29-31
Shield Hitlag -
Shieldstun -
Minimum Duration - 76
FAF - 77

Advantage on Shield: (Jump/Grab OoS) -44, (Normal Shield Drop) -37 [/collapse]

[collapse=Grabs]Standing Grab

Hitbox Active - 6-7
Minimum Duration - 28
FAF - 29


Running Grab

Hitbox Active - 9-10
Minimum Duration - 11-39
FAF - 40


Pivot Grab

Hitbox Active - 7-8
Minimum Duration - 35
FAF - 36[/collapse]

[collapse=Down Throw]... gets its own section!

Eventually.



Characters that have +0 advantages for the first 5 throws in the Stale Move Negation queue, -1 for any throw after that

[collapse=+0/-1]Meta Knight, Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, ZSS, G&W, Fox, Kirby, Sheik, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Zelda[/collapse]

Characters that have +19 advantages for the first 5 throws in the Stale Move Negation queue, +18 for any throw after that

[collapse=+19/+18]Snake, Wario, Wolf, DK, ROB, Ike, Yoshi, Samus, Captain Falcon[/collapse]

Characters that have +20 advantages for the first 5 throws in the Stale Move Negation queue, +19 for any throw after that

[collapse=+20/+19]Diddy Kong, Lucario, King Dedede, Sonic, Luigi, Ness, Charizard, Ivysaur, Mario, Bowser, Link, Ganondorf[/collapse]

Characters that have +21 advantages for the first 5 throws in the Stale Move Negation queue, +20 for any throw after that

[collapse=+21/+20]Marth, Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Peach, Pit, Lucas[/collapse]

Grab Releases:

Lucas: +11
Ness: +11
Donkey Kong: ??[/collapse]

[collapse=Advantages on hit][/collapse]

[collapse=Jigglypuff][/collapse]

[collapse=Lucario][/collapse]

[collapse=Bowser][/collapse]


[collapse=Complete damage values for all moves for all levels of staleness][/collapse]


Feel free to post any suggestions about layout/whatever.

[collapse=Changelog]
Saturday, 26th November, 2011 - 7:00 pm - Basic frame data complete. Almost all attacks have start up frames, active hitbox frames and FAF frames.
Sunday, 27th November, 2011 - 2:00 am - All basic frame data complete on grounded and aerial moves. Special's are a bit trickier, but these'll get done.
Monday, 28th November, 2011 - 1:25 am - All hitbox frame data, Minimum Duration frame data, FAF frames confirmed to be correct. Fixed a couple of frame disadvantages that were wrong (they're all correct now, but make a note that all of them are from the first frame that hitbox comes out so the frame disadvantages are absolute worst case scenarios (like hitting with the first hit of utilt/dash attack/what have you). Added intangibility frames to utilt and Up B. Found and added super armor frames to Up B. Begun frame advantage on dthrow.
Wednesday, 30th November, 2011 - 1:55 am - Well this was fun. Basically added damage values for Dedede's attacks, and found autocancel frames on all his aerials. This involved a tedious amount of counting for something quite trivial imo (Though Dedede basically autocancels his bair as soon as the hitboxes end, so it seems to me that with autocancelling, even horribly misspaced bairs can potentially be somewhat safe depending on how long the shield stun on the weak hit is). Also his full hop is like, 57 frames and short hop is like, 40. /themoreyouknow. Also finished quite a few high tiers on dthrow's frame advantage, will attempt to finish the rest later. Beginning to notice a huge pattern though, namely that after the 5th throw, the hitstun is always one less than previously. Will continue to test every throw as I've been doing though.
Wednesday, 30th November, 2011 - 6:00 pm - Added more dthrow data. Some surprising stuff in there, but getting sick of testing every throw, when it's following such a predictable pattern. Might do something else tomorrow.
Friday, 1st December, 2011 - 10:20 am - Finished dthrow frame advantages.
Wednesday, 1st February, 2012 - 10:20 am - Primed thread for an update.


To do list:
add hit advantage (NO IDEA if I'll do this. Too much to test since weight is a huge factor on how much hitstun is dealt, so... eh.)
do rolls and spotdodges (basically just a check of Buuman's)
Other throw information <-------- UP THROW TO UP B IS LEGIT I SWEAR
item throw frames <--- Might be helpful for banana's? Unless you like playing with Pokemon Ball's on high...
trip attacks
ledge attacks
down attacks
[/collapse]

Dthrow Standing Infinite Buffering Range:

 

KuroganeHammer

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It's so beautiful. Thank you sir.
No worries mang <3
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054 <- Don't know if you saw that but there's the biggest chunk of it, section 3, a little ways down. But yeah, besides that we are lacking.
Yeah I was linked to that, but some of it it just so horribly wrong.

Like utilt having a hitbox on frame 12, when it's actually frame 7. Almost twice as fast.

Most of the other ones are off by a couple of frames too, but it is an old thread, so no use nitpicking.

Also I just realised I have totally forgotton Dash attack.

My plans for this thread are for:

Start up
Hitbox frames
IASA frames (which I might put the cooldown frames too)
and frame advantages vs shield

So I'm just going to go through it all myself. I don't mind. Frame Advance is fun.

Also an important note about utilt, the frame 7 hit's directly behind Dedede, so the frame 15 hit is the furtherest the moves hitbox goes horizontally in front of you. Assuming you hit a shield on frame 15, this leaves you a frame advantage of about -13 (-20 OoS). Considering the moves horizontal range, and in comparison to his smash attacks, that's quite safe on shield.
 

Lovecraft

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Good good, just wanted to make sure you weren't wasting your time gathering data we had shoved in some cupboard somewhere. Much appreciated, kudos.
 

Xubble

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This is wonderful! Maybe we could get some hitbox bubbles with trajectories soon to go with these? :3
 

KuroganeHammer

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This is wonderful! Maybe we could get some hitbox bubbles with trajectories soon to go with these? :3
That's Toomai's job. :p

When he does the thread, I'll probably link it here or something.

There is a hitbubble pac file floating around somewhere, but I find hitbubble pac files to be unreliable at times.

I can definitely find the base knockback/knockback growth/trajectories/damage and include that though.
 

Xubble

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Basically. But they show the trajectory the opponent is launched at when they come in contact with the specific bubble. And some moves have sweet spots, and the video doesn't clearly show them if I remember (though most moves have obvious sweetspots).
 

KuroganeHammer

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Guys, regarding trajectories and damage and knockback and knockback growth, most of it is here: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitDedede.php

All the frame data on that is rather dubious though since it appears to mostly be from Project Smash Attacks (which doesn't give specifics on certain things and often only counts charge releases (hence the 8 frame forward smash)). I also have no idea why the IASA frames are off apparently by one frame for almost all the attacks.

Mine are right though. *folds arms*
 

KuroganeHammer

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I think I love me too.

How much data do you guys have on dthrow's frame advantage? Should I attempt to get some?
 

KuroganeHammer

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It's tied with like, Sheik and Ness and Peach and... lots of other characters.

But yeah, fast grab, but 6 frames is pretty standard. Then you get weird characters like Snake and Zelda who are 8 and 12 frames respectively.

Edit: Definitely the best grab in the game when you count his range with it. And considering how dumb his throws are. :|
 

KuroganeHammer

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And more data is up. :)

I'm making an assumption on Swallow that the frame the windbox disappears is the frame the command grab disappears too, but will confirm this tomorrow.

Up B was the worst thing ever.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Speaking of Van Gogh, I took a break from frame data and drew a picture of Dedede's mallet instead.

So now the thread has a pretty header.

I'll start gathering more dthrow data tomorrow. <3
 

KuroganeHammer

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Shameless bump to say that I've added damage values to all of Dedede's standard moves, and added autocancel frames (Bair is amazing) and done 8 characters dthrow frame dis/advantages.

Will keep gathering frame data tomorrow assuming I don't open Skyward Sword and play it forever and ever.
 

1PokeMastr

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Infinite: Mario, Dk, Luigi, Samus.

Ledge Infinite: Bowser, Ourself.

Slope: Wolf.


Buffered Reverse Pivot grab: Snake. ( I forgot the rest)

Though, for the IASA, it must be a pretty large IASA frame, because when I do it, I just Mash Minus at a certain time ( I make 5 - 7 ) Inputs and can do the infinite to 999% fine.

I just need to learn to do it without hearing D3.. anyway.. Back to Memorizing the OP.
 

KuroganeHammer

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There's only one IASA frame on any action. IASA is literally just when your first actionable frame is and therefore becomes a misnomer at times since certain moves don't have an IASA frame. You're probably just buffering a grab.

I guess I just suck at buffering. ;______;

Will continue gathering more hard data and look into this buffered pivot dash dance grab thingie Dean wanted me to test.

yay frame advance ~
 

KuroganeHammer

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By the way, it's worth noting that frame 36 is the frame you need to put your grab out for it to come out on frame 37, so it's technically frame 36-46 since Brawl doesn't do inputs on the same frame you input them.

I guess if this confuses people, I can have it changed on the gif.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I am going to use this information and add it to my moveset guide.

Of course credit will be given.

Hmm....honestly guys. I think I have all the components to make a full guide. The one we desperately need.

Except pictures. After that we're golden.

But I decided I'm going to officially start on the guide tonight when I get home from work. I need a new project to stay motivated.
 

KuroganeHammer

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hay dudes and dudettes,

I've updated the thread with shield hitlag and shieldstun. For those who aren't aware of what these are, the shield hitlag are the number of frames your opponent has to input SSDI; during these frames, the thing attacking the shield and the defender are "frozen" in place.

Shieldstun is the amount of frames AFTER shield hitlag that they must stay in their shield before being able to start dropping their shield or jumping out of it.

I'll finish confirming these values are 100% correct tonight. :)

:phone:

For the record, these two values are universal for both perfect shielding and normal shielding.

Low hitlag and high shieldstun are. more desirable than high hitlag and low shieldstun.
 
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