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King Dedede Matchup Export #5 - Olimar

KuroganeHammer

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King Dedede Matchup Export #5 - Olimar​



Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0 Says: -2

Things we can discuss:​

1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Olimar?
2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Olimar?
3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Olimar's recovery? How does Olimar fare offstage versus Olimar?
4. Can Olimar gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Olimar?
5. Is Olimar easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
6. Can Dedede shield pressure Olimar, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Olimar also shield pressure Dedede?
7. Can Dedede punish Olimar's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?

Character/moveset specifics:

How should Dedede optimally deal with:
Pikmin Throw
Pivot grab
stupid aerials :salt:
Are there any other moves that Dedede should be aware of?

Stages
UNITY RULESET STAGES ONLY PLEASE
Should be obvious already, but I'm just making it clear.

Which starter stages should Dedede strike?
Which counterpicks should Dedede take Olimar?
Which counterpicks should Dedede ban versus Olimar?
Where is Olimar likely to take us?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Before we begin though, there are some ground rules that need to be covered, and these will apply to all MU rediscussion threads.

1) Avoid large amounts of bias please. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Dedede's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

2) Keep the scaling for matchups consistant. We will be using the -4 to +4 scale to summarize the matchup. Here is a rundown of the scale:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Keep in mind, the first number in the ratio will always refer to King Dedede. Please do your best to pick one number, rather than something in between two integers. There are NO other possible matchup ratios besides -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.

3) Please be reasonable! If the majority of people say Dedede vs. Meta Knight is -3, then try not to say the matchup is 0 unless you are able to back this up with hard evidence.

Finally, it is a difficult task, but please try to contribute as much as possible!
 

Bobwithlobsters

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for olimar, I think the smaller the stage the better. But at the same time platforms are a big deal too. I just feel like fighting olimar you are constantly trying to chase him down cause his keep away game is just so amazing. For starters I would think probably battlefield or smashville.

What does everyone else think on stages? Which is more important, size or platforms?

:phone:
 

allshort17

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I personally don't like platforms. I feel like he can camp under them and it limits our approach. Espeacially for stages with long platforms in the middle like YI, Harberd, and half of Frigate I tend to stay away from them. I say to take Olimar to RC (if legal), FD, and SV more than anywhere.

I've recently learning that all of Olimar's good moves are low to the ground. Meaning, you can short hop over grabs, Fsamsh, and Dsmash. It's a pretty good bait to run at him then short hop or jump a little above him (save one jump), then look like you are trying to land then use that last jump. If it works, then you can get a free bair and inhale or land to get a grab, ftilt, or dtilt. The exception is his Usmash. However, because he realizes you are jumping over his attack he's more likely to Usmash to counter it. When you read it, you can powershield and get a grab. So, it's almost a like 50-50 shot at approaching correctly.

I also realized not to worry about Pikmin toss too much. Just jump over Purples or shield them (not too close to him though because he will grab you.) Whites are also a problem, so if you have the time just nair them off because they do a lot of damage. Don't worry about the damage you're taking because you can make up that damage by punishing his landing and recovery to heck and back. If you are in a stock lead, then I see any damage you get before you die as free damage so again, don't worry about the damage you are taking.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Basics vs Olimar:

- Ignore your percent. It's just going to cause you stress. You will be down in percent for the entire match anyway if this MU is going the way it should be.

- You can't be passive at all. "Rush Down" D3 is the name of the game.

- Olimar's tech rolls are really bad. But unless you're sure you can follow up, Back Throw him.

- Always aim to get Olimar off the stage.

- When you do, aim to hit him with the sour spot of Bair. It gimps him better by sending him at a more horizontal angle.

- Nair gets Pikmin off you. Don't do it when you're in a position to get punished.

- Kill Purples if you ever get the chance without putting yourself at danger.

- F-Tilt and D-Tilt will stop grabs if you know they're coming due to Oli's lack of Grab Armor.

- CP him to smaller stages so he can't run as much.
 

Bobwithlobsters

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Yeah I've been leaving away from platforms but wanted your guys' opinions. I will disagree with taking him to rainbow though. It feels like a good counter pick but it gives olimar so much room to run away and he is much more mobile than ddd. I am thinking final destination might be a good idea. originally I always thought it was way to big but without platforms you can corner him well if you keep pressuring him.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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Lolz, I totally missed this thread before! I just found it for the first time, thanks to Xenforo uncovering a bunch of old stuff. :p These should probably be revived. They were pretty helpful.

I've played against Dabuz once or twice, and my friend, DarkPkmn/Decoy, mains Oli and we've played a lot against each other, so I think I know a couple of things about this MU, but I'm still mostly confused on how we're supposed to win. I agree with a -2 for this.
1. How does Dedede's ground game fare versus Olimar?
I personally think Olimar beats us on the ground. Between grab (especially pivot grab), fsmash, and usmash, Oli controls the RPS game pretty well. As TC said, our ftilt and dtilt can break his grab IF we predict it, but, well, we have to predict it. :ohwell:

2. How does Dedede's air game fare versus Olimar?
Conversely, I'm pretty sure we solidly beat Olimar in the air. Our attacks out-prioritize his, I believe (my friend told me that Pikmin have almost no priority, although I don't know how true this is). In addition, due to his weight and his recovery, he loses out on pretty much all air trades. If he wants to get to the ground safely, he often has to give away free damage via Whistle, and I'm pretty sure we can still punish Whistle pretty hard (frame-traps, possibly?).

3. Can Dedede gimp or disrupt Olimar's recovery? How does Olimar fare offstage versus Olimar?
This one's quite obvious. :p Olimar's tether-dependent recovery makes him very gimpable. One successful read from us can equal a gimping aerial or an edgehog. If we hit him out far enough at the start, then it's just an easy ledgehog. If anything, we can get free damage through frame-traps or hitting him during Whistle. I also feel that Olimar has a somewhat hard time getting off the ledge against DDD because we can punish his landings with a grab or a tilt.

Olimar is just in a very bad place when he's offstage against DDD.

4. Can Olimar gimp Dedede? How does Dedede fare offstage versus Olimar?
Olimar can make recovering annoying with his Pikmin throws and smashes, and I personally am a little afraid of his dair meteor, but in the end, we should always be able to recover against him. Olimar kinda sucks trying to do anything offstage, and he doesn't have Falco lasers. In addition, I feel that Oli can't really do much about our ledge options. Ledgehop allows us to cover ourselves with dair and when landing, we can throw out Inhale mix-ups, which work pretty well.

5. Is Olimar easy to grab and/or chaingrab? Can we chaingrab him?
I wouldn't say he's easy to grab (and he's impossible to CG) but we have some pretty good grab 'set-ups' on him. For one, we can grab his landing pretty well. Oftentimes, he's gonna whistle to avoid suffering KB which could send him offstage without his DJ, so we can just grab that. Our tilts send him into the air, and so does our b/fthrow. His techroll is also pretty bad, so we can land another grab from a dthrow TC.

6. Can Dedede shield pressure Olimar, and with what attacks can he do so with? Can Olimar also shield pressure Dedede?
DDD's ftilt is decent pressure in this MU. I feel like Inhale is also pretty good pressure. Olimar can definitely pressure DDD with Pikmin throws and smashes, especially fsmash, and if we try to shield those attacks too closely, he can just grab us anyway. :facepalm:

7. Can Dedede punish Olimar's attacks easily on shield? And vice versa?
If Olimar mis-spaces his attacks, or we PS them, I think we can always punish them with a shieldgrab. However, on the other side, I could almost swear Olimar's usmash OoS is one of the dumbest things in the universe. I mean, if you're at kill %'s, think TWICE about doing something stupid on his shield, because between shieldgrab > u/bthrow and usmash OoS, Olimar can definitely make us regret our unsafe shield pressure.

How should Dedede optimally deal with:
Pikmin Throw
Shield them at a distance, especially the purples. If they latch onto you, you can take them off with nair. I wouldn't worry about this move too much, though. DDD has the bulk to withstand a bit of residual damage, as long as he keeps it to a minimum by continuously going in.

Pivot grab
This move is annoying as HECK! I think our ftilt out-spaces this move, but I'm not sure. I think we should just counter this by reading it and jumping over it. Eventually, Olimar will run out of space. That's my 5 cents.
stupid aerials :salt:
It's mostly the nair! :mad: This move sets up into SO MUCH garbage for Olimar, it's ridiculous. I'm fairly certain that nair > usmash > uair > DJ uair (depending on Pikmin) is a true combo at low %'s. At death %'s, this move hit-confirms into his usmash for the KO. We have to be extremely careful about this move, because it, alone, can be responsible for a huge portion of our stock disappearing before we can even realize what happened. :scared: All his other aerials can be out-prioritized, I believe, or punished on shield. I tbink we can punish Oli's nair on our shield, but I'm actually not sure at all. That move is just stupid. :glare:

Are there any other moves that Dedede should be aware of?
Lolz, how can you froget about his smashes? They're such BS! :c Usmash kills, has a ton of priority for no reaason, and it punishes so many things OoS. Fsmash, along with pivot grab and Pikmin Toss, makes up Olimar's main meat in the neutral game, IMO. Both of these moves really help Olimar's keep-out game. One kills, is pretty fast, and has decent use as an anti-air tool, and one has just sooooo much range. :smash:

This is obviously all IMO from playing against my friends Olimar a LOT. :)
 

Bobwithlobsters

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On the topic of olimar's up smash having lots of priority, I believe as long as you hit the pikman with am attack you will remove the hit box from it. So you can do things like falling nair through his up smash or falling dair as well. This doesn't help with usmash oos which is the real problem though...
 

DewDaDash

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I feel the MU is -1. After playing kairo, logic, and richbrown, I was learning a lot of options in the MU. The MU is tough but doable, just gotta rush down and put the opponent in unfavorable positions.
 

Bobwithlobsters

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I feel the MU is -1. After playing kairo, logic, and richbrown, I was learning a lot of options in the MU. The MU is tough but doable, just gotta rush down and put the opponent in unfavorable positions.
could you go in to more detail on rush down? I understand how to keep the pressure up once you pop him up with your basic options in fair, bair, grab, and maybe ftilt and inhale for mix ups but getting to that position by breaking through olimar's wall is where I struggle. How do you recommend breaking through that wall?
 
D

Deleted member 189823

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Isn't Inhale (mixed up with B-Reverses) an excellent and fundamental tool in this MU?
 

DewDaDash

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How do I explain it? hmm... Well the basic metagame is they just throw pikmin at you obviously since we're a large pos. I guess if you have white pikmin on you, you have to uptilt that obviously, maybe as they see you distracted they approach you in which case you might have time to ps and react. The majority of the game though your going to have to approach them. Putting pressure usually is grabbing them, sometimes or most of the time through powershielding their purple pikmin as they will throw that out quite a bit. If they are in the middle of the stage usually just tech chase, if they are near edge f-throw them off stage and bair edgeguard. As they whistle, intentionally delay your b-air by a little bit more than normal so that their whistle screws up for easy edgeguard.
 

DewDaDash

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I'd post more but tbh I kind of forgot ^^". Its been since apex since ive played Olis and apex is like a blur. I'm sure I remember it from instinct and my approaches could naturally react, but to explain the MU through memory is a bit tougher, sry =(. I'll try to get some matches saved in the future if you guys care for those.

But Techchase kind of explains the basics well.
 

bubbaking

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How do I explain it? hmm... Well the basic metagame is they just throw pikmin at you obviously since we're a large pos. I guess if you have white pikmin on you, you have to uptilt that obviously, maybe as they see you distracted they approach you in which case you might have time to ps and react. The majority of the game though your going to have to approach them. Putting pressure usually is grabbing them, sometimes or most of the time through powershielding their purple pikmin as they will throw that out quite a bit. If they are in the middle of the stage usually just tech chase, if they are near edge f-throw them off stage and bair edgeguard. As they whistle, intentionally delay your b-air by a little bit more than normal so that their whistle screws up for easy edgeguard.
What's "pos"? :confused: If we have white Pikmin on us, wouldn't it be better to quickly SHFF nair them to get them off rather than to stale utilt? :ohwell: Also, you didn't explain how our options make this MU a -1. Yes, we can hurt him badly off of a grab, but you never pointed out ways for us to easily land that grab. Also, I remember T_C saying that the tech-chase on Oli is good but risky because one bad read can go south reeaaal fast! :smash: Not disagreeing with you about edgeguarding Oli, but delaying your bair is a mix-up. Oli can also delay his Whistle. :p However, I do think that edgeguarding Olimar is actually quite easy. Between bairs and quick ledgehogs, Olimar is always hard-pressed to recover. Also, dumb question I know, but Inhale and grabs work on Whistle, right?

But Techchase kind of explains the basics well.
IIRC, T_C also thinks the MU is a solid -2... <__<
 

DewDaDash

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lol by pos I meant that were a large piece of **** ^^" I suggested uptilt as I think that's the quickest way to get pikmin off right? Does shff nair get them off in the same amount of time? Also I'm thinking by doing that ur putting ur self in the air which is a bad position, u usually want stage control. What's making it hard to land the grab? Don't you just run after them and grab? I mean you will have to take damage in this mu quite a bit ur relying on the fact that u live 2x as long as his stocks
 

bubbaking

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Utilt may come out the fastest, but I feel that SHFF nair is actually the safest option, since it ends faster (and also starts up fairly quickly). Doing that doesn't really compromise DDD's position because of how fast he FFs and how low nair's landing lag is. The two moves seem to be comparable in utility for removing Pikmin, but the fact that utilt is a valuable kill move draws the line for me. I'd rather not stale it.

What makes grabbing Olimar hard, IMO, is the RPS game that Olimar puts you through, which is somewhat fueled by the fact that all of his 'burst moves', including his OWN grab, out-range your grab. Sure, you can just "run after" Oli, but sooner or later, you're gonna run into the wall and you have to figure out how you're going to get through or over it. Also, even though we live longer, this MU isn't like Diddy (who can't kill) or Falco (who can only really kill with bair, which requires him to jump, and usmash, which is laggy). Olimar's kill moves are fast and some of them are throws, resulting from a grab that out-ranges DDD's. That's part of the -2 for me.
 

DewDaDash

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Hmm well I always kind of considered mk and ics -2 and everyone else below that. Unless u want to say that mk and ics is -3 and oil is -2 then maybe I can agree. I just felt like oil is a winnable mu at high level play and that's why I gave it that score. Oil is a harder mu than falco, maybe about the same as diddy in difficulty
 

bubbaking

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MK is definitely -3. I feel the ICs are -2 but during the official BBR MU discussion, a -3 was settled upon (again). Diddy's probably easier than both Falco and Olimar, IMO. You should watch matches of Vex and 4GOD for that. There is probably a different 'style' of DDD out there for each of those MUs that has an easier time dealing with it. If I had to say which DDDs were best at certain bad MUs for us, it would be:
  • Diddy: 4GOD, Vex
  • Falco: 4GOD
  • Olimar: Coney
  • ICs: 4GOD, Coney
  • MK: No one
 
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