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KayJay's Lab

KayJay

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
530
Location
Austria
NNID
KayJay84
3DS FC
1848-1677-7521
How safe is Jab1?

Tested with the sourspot of Jab1. This list is for high competitive play in mind, you will exactly know at what percentage Jab1 won't be punished on hit and you will also know when you are allowed to go into Jab2 without getting counter attacked.


Character | Jab1 > shielding the opponent's fastest move | Jab1 > Jab2 clashing with the opponent's fastest move
Mario | 42%~ | 51%~
Luigi | 37%~ | 51%~
Peach | 40%~ | 48%~
Bowser | 00%~ | 08%~
Yoshi | 34%~ | 43%~
Rosalina | 00%~ | - (no clashing with Luma)
Bowser Jr | 25%~ | 35%~
Wario | 16%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab) | 34%~ (D-Tilt, both get hit) 00%~ (Jab)
Donkey Kong | 18%~ | 18%~
Diddy Kong | 32%~ | 41%~
Game & Watch | 21%~ | 29%~
Little Mac | 47%~ | 71%~ (no clashing)
Link | 00%~ | 07%~
Zelda | 14%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab) | 37%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab loses)
Sheik | 39%~ | 44%~
Ganondorf | 00%~ | 00%~
Toon Link | 06%~ | 15% - 23% (either clashes or both get hit)
Samus | 35%~ | 35%~
Zero Suit Samus | 46%~ | 46%~
Pit | 15%~ | 24%~
Palutena | 00%~ | 00%~
Marth | 15%~ | 15%~ (vs. Jab, but Marth can Up B until 40%)
Ike | 26%~ | 35%~
Robin | 24%~ | 33%~
Duck Hunt | 23%~ | 32% - 39% (either clashes or both get hit)
Kirby | 29%~ | 37%~
King Dedede | 08%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab) | 17%~ (D-Tilt loses) 00%~ (Jab loses)
Metaknight | 30%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab) | 48%~ (D-Tilt) 06%~ (Jab)
Fox | 38%~ | 46%~
Falco | 38%~ | 47%~
Pikachu | 38%~ | 54% - 61% (no clashing, both get hit)
Charizard | 27%~ | 36%~ (either clashes or his Jab loses but Charizard can Up B until ~75%)
Lucario | 07%~ | 07%~ (vs. Jab, but Lucario can Down B counter until ~33%)
Jigglypuff | 13%~ | 20% - 27% (either clashes or both get hit)
Greninja | 32%~ | 41%~
Rob | 35%~ | 44%~
Ness | 32%~ | 41% - 49% (either clashes or both get hit)
Captain Falcon | 34%~ | 34%~
Villager | 33%~ | 42% - 50% (either clashes or both get hit)
Olimar | 22%~ | 30% - 37% (either clashes or both get hit)
Wii Fit Trainer | 24%~ | 24%~
Shulk | 16%~ | 25%~
Dr. Mario | 42%~ | 51%~
Dark Pit | 15%~ | 24%~
Lucina | 15%~ | 15%~ (vs. Jab, but Lucina can Up B until ~40%)
Pacman | 24%~ | 33%~
Megaman | 19%~ (D-Tilt) 00%~ (Jab) | 30%~ (both get hit or D-Tilt loses) 07% - 15% (Jab either clashes or both get hit)
Sonic | 32%~ | 41% - 49% (either clashes or both get hit)
Mewtwo | 05%~ | 21%~ (Jab loses)
Roy | 15%~ | 24%~ (vs. Jab, but Roy can Up B until ~40%)
Ryu | 34%~ | 43%~ (vs. Jab, but Ryu can Up B until ~51% and Down B until ~69%)
Cloud | 25%~ | 34%~
Corrin | 16%~ | 24%~
Bayonetta | 00%~ | 00%~ (vs. Jab, but Bayonetta can Down B until ~30%)
If there is no move described, it's the enemy's Jab

Samus's 39%-46% True-Combo, reliable percent range for every character


Character | Reliable percent range via Dash Attack | Reliable percent range via D-Throw
Mario | 03% - 30% | 10% - 38%
Luigi | 04% - 20% | 11% - 29%
Peach | 02% - 04% | 06% - 16%
Bowser | 03% - 29% | 08% - 38%
Yoshi | 04% - 24% | 08% - 32%
Rosalina | 02% - 12% | 05% - 20%
Bowser Jr | 03% - 36% | 12% - 47%
Wario | 07% - 33% | 11% - 46%
Donkey Kong | 04% - 38% | 06% - 49%
Diddy Kong | 09% - 31% | 12% - 42%
Game & Watch | 05% - 13% | 09% - 19%
Little Mac | 06% - 27% | 10% - 39%
Link | 07% - 30% | 10% - 38%
Zelda | 02% - 17% | 07% - 27%
Sheik | 07% - 25% | 11% - 33%
Ganondorf | 04% - 32% | 06% - 45%
Toon Link | 07% - 15% | 13% - 24%
Samus | 05% - 21% | 09% - 24%
Zero Suit Samus | 05% - 28% | 14% - 42%
Pit | 07% - 26% | 11% - 32%
Palutena | 03% - 21% | 10% - 30%
Marth | 02% - 27% | 06% - 33%
Ike | 04% - 35% | 09% - 44%
Robin | 03% - 22% | 07% - 34%
Duck Hunt | 06% - 29% | 10% - 38%
Kirby | 02% - 10% | 08% - 21%
King Dedede | 06% - 49% | 12% - 62%
Metaknight | 04% - 27% | 09% - 36%
Fox | 06% - 28% | 10% - 37%
Falco | 05% - 29% | 09% - 38%
Pikachu | 04% - 22% | 08% - 31%
Charizard | 05% - 26% | 12% - 37%
Lucario | 07% - 25% | 13% - 36%
Jigglypuff | (only w/ sourspot) 00% - 03% | 01% - 02%
Greninja | 06% - 26% | 11% - 35%
Rob | 04% - 32% | 08% - 38%
Ness | 07% - 19% | 11% - 28%
Captain Falcon | 06% - 39% | 10% - 47%
Villager | 03% - 18% | 07% -26%
Olimar | 01% - 18% | 07% - 26%
Wii Fit Trainer | 07% - 19% | 11% - 27%
Shulk | 04% - 27% | 08% - 32%
Dr. Mario | 03% - 30% | 10% - 38%
Dark Pit | 07% - 26% | 11% - 32%
Lucina | 02% - 27% | 06% - 33%
Pacman | 03% - 21% | 07% - 28%
Megaman | 07% - 37% | 12% - 47%
Sonic | 06% - 22% | 13% - 32%
Mewtwo | 05% - 21% | 07% - 34%
Roy | 03% - 33% | 07% - 40%
Ryu | 02% - 25% | 06% - 37%
Tested against non-DI, DI backwards, DI upwards, DI diagonally upwards (away), Airdodge

Samus's Perfect Pivots
Since v1.1.1, perfect pivot U-Tilt is safe on shield.

Crouch canceling Down B

Samus's Tether Ledge Grab CS Trap

Samus's D-Tilt - catching landings

Most players will expect you to camp / start charging your CS after you launched them. Surprise them by rushing into their face with a Shielddash into D-Tilt.

Samus's Foxtrot-Dance
Good for baiting and finding an opening for her Dash Attack combostarter or for K.O. fishing.

Samus's Extended Dashdance

Good for baiting and finding an opening for her Dash Attack combostarter or for K.O. fishing.

Example: Z-Air > Extended dashdance > perfect pivot CS
It's highly possible that your opponent shields/spotdodges after getting hit by Z-Air, they will most likely drop their shield and take the bait when they see you retreating so the pp CS will hit them in their shielddrop frames.

Samus's running reversed JC U-Smash


Samus's D-Throw to Super Missile Frametrap

Lagless Ledge Get-up
Tutorial:

Samus's Tether Ledge Trump
How to do: Input dash and when you reach the edge RAR Short Hop Z-Air very fast, or flick the Control-Stick to the other side then input Short Hop -> Z-Air.

Samus's Frame Perfect Short Hop U-Air
Method for simplified Frame Perfect SH Aerials by Remzi:
(SH double U-Air doesn't work anymore since 1.1.5 but the other benefits still work.)


Frame Perfect Short Hop U-Air fully connecting against a standing opponent, list of characters:
Character
Bowser
Rosalina
Bowser Jr
Wario
Donkey Kong
Link
Ganondorf
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Palutena
Ike
King Dedede
Falco
Rob
Captain Falcon
Shulk
Dark Pit
Mewtwo
Cloud
Bayonetta
Note: It can also fully connect on Luigi, Zelda, Duck Hunt, Charizard, Pac-Man, Sonic and Ryu but it will miss more often.

Falling U-Air into U-Smash connecting & inescapable at kill %

Inescapable for these characters:

Character
Rosalina (without Luma)
Bowser Jr. (charge U-Smash for about a half second)
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Ganondorf
Palutena
Rob
Mewtwo

Throw Follow ups tested against airdodge & DI Away:

Character | D-Throw > F-Air | U-Throw > U-Air / F-Air
Mario | Yes | Yes
Luigi | Yes | No
Peach | Yes | No
Bowser | Yes | No
Yoshi | Yes | No
Rosalina | Yes | No
Bowser Jr | Yes | Yes
Wario | Yes | Yes
Donkey Kong | Yes | Yes
Diddy Kong | No | Yes
Game & Watch | Yes (only at very low %) | Yes
Little Mac | Yes | Yes
Link | Yes | Yes
Zelda | Yes (only at very low %) | Yes
Sheik | No | Yes
Ganondorf | Yes | Yes
Toon Link | Yes | No
Samus | Yes | No
Zero Suit Samus | No | Yes
Pit | Yes (only at around ~35 %) | Yes
Palutena | No | Yes
Marth | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Ike | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Robin | No | Yes
Duck Hunt | Yes | Yes
Kirby | Yes | Yes
King Dedede | Yes | Yes
Metaknight | No | Yes
Fox | No | Yes
Falco | Yes (only at very low %) | Yes
Pikachu | Yes (only at very low %) | Yes
Charizard | No | No
Lucario | No | Yes
Jigglypuff | Yes | Yes
Greninja | No | Yes
Rob | Yes | Yes
Ness | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Captain Falcon | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Villager | Yes (very tight) | No
Olimar | Yes | Yes
Wii Fit Trainer | Yes (only at around ~35 %) | No
Shulk | Yes | Yes
Dr. Mario | Yes | Yes
Dark Pit | Yes (only at around ~35%) | Yes
Lucina | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Pacman | Yes (only at very low %) | No
Megaman | Yes | Yes
Sonic | No | Yes
Mewtwo | No | Yes
Lucas | Yes (very tight) | Yes
Roy | Yes | Yes
Ryu | No | Yes
Cloud | Yes | Yes
Corrin | Yes (only at around ~35%) | Yes
Bayonetta | No | Yes
U-Throw followups (U-Throw > U-Air -> Up B) are only true at around 0%-30% depending on character, 25%-30% dmg are guaranteed.

Samus's U-Throw > F-Air strings

One Airdodge-read is all it takes, everything else is a true combo. They can't shield, dodge or attack after they got hit by the small Charge Shot.

The KayJay-Combo

Thanks to v1.1.5 our faster fall speed and the lower Dash Attack knockback with the early (7%) hit, makes it easy to create a 50/50. You can punish an airdodge after DA > u-air > u-air instead of going for the guaranteed up B. This does 48%-54% dmg and it's a good mix-up since everyone trys to avoid our up B finisher by spamming airdodge.

Easy frame-perfect Instant Ledge Wall Jump (ILWJ) method
No Bidou required, works with C-stick set to tilts:
Attack button must be hold while hanging on the ledge, flick the C-Stick away from the ledge and immediately hold the left Stick towards the ledge.
 
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Metallinatus

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 20, 2015
Messages
1,077
Location
Blanka's Lair, Brazil
Tested against non-DI, DI backwards, DI upwards, DI diagonally upwards (away), Airdodge
Very sweet! Just that last part I don't know if I got it right....
Do you mean, tested with the opponent spamming the Airdodge button but failing to Airdodge? Because, you know, if he can Airdodge so it is no long a true combo....
 

KayJay

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
530
Location
Austria
NNID
KayJay84
3DS FC
1848-1677-7521
Airdodge comes out too late when your input is frameperfect, so even if the combo counter doesn't show it as a true combo (at 0%) it is undodgeable.
 

DungeonMaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
1,055
Location
Ottawa
NNID
Dalaeck
@ KayJay KayJay What you're saying is that the training mode combo counter is just a pile of dung and in reality up-air true combos into CS at any low percent, not merely the well known narrow ranges it displays.
I'm a little bit surprised by this - but not completely since it is a pile of crap in many well known ways - and it would be really nice if we had some secondary testing.
If confirmed it opens up a VERY wide window for CS combos out of all the starters and would be BIG news!

Airdodges come out between 2-4 frames and the CS in 16. Up-air terminates on frame 21, and FAF is 40, so that means you would need minimum 19 frames of cooldown + 16 frames startup = 35 frames to get the CS out (frame perfect jump).
The base knockback is 40 and the growth knockback is 160. I'll ask the guys in the mechanics thread or maybe someone like @ Xygonn Xygonn would know if there's a calculator for the frame advantage generated by those numbers.

I'm still baffled as to why they would include such a damn buggy "training mode" in general in an otherwise highly polished game.
 
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MegaRiff

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
Messages
120
Location
California
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MegaRiff
So I had this page open while on FG and came across a Ryu. So I checked the list and come to find he's not on there!

Awesome list though. Many thanks.
 

KayJay

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
530
Location
Austria
NNID
KayJay84
3DS FC
1848-1677-7521
Added Ryu.
Only Lucas is missing, I didn't buy Lucas so someone else has to test on him.


@ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster Yes. The combo-counter underestimates the hitstun of U-Air at low%, I was also surprised because normaly the combo-counter fails in the opposite situation (spike-combos).
 
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DungeonMaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
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Location
Ottawa
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Dalaeck
I did some initial testing last night vs airdodge and I'm not 100% convinced by your numbers. A lot of 0% were escapable, and failed quite consistently even with a frame perfect J -> CS. It would be good to have other people test this to get a 3rd opinion, the skype group in particular.
Testing in training mode it was definitely landing lower than combo counter indicated below the ranges described in the combo thread - definitely confirmed - the airdodge began but was interrupted in its first few frames. Did this in slow motion many times and even took some full motion vid that I afterwards slowed down.
It means the combo width is definitely larger than indicated by the combo counter (by a fair fraction, like an additional 10-20% in some cases) , though we should have other people test to see if they can replicate your really low end ranges.
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
768
Location
Seattle Area
NNID
xygonn
@ KayJay KayJay What you're saying is that the training mode combo counter is just a pile of dung and in reality up-air true combos into CS at any low percent, not merely the well known narrow ranges it displays.
I'm a little bit surprised by this - but not completely since it is a pile of crap in many well known ways - and it would be really nice if we had some secondary testing.
If confirmed it opens up a VERY wide window for CS combos out of all the starters and would be BIG news!

Airdodges come out between 2-4 frames and the CS in 16. Up-air terminates on frame 21, and FAF is 40, so that means you would need minimum 19 frames of cooldown + 16 frames startup = 35 frames to get the CS out (frame perfect jump).
The base knockback is 40 and the growth knockback is 160. I'll ask the guys in the mechanics thread or maybe someone like @ Xygonn Xygonn would know if there's a calculator for the frame advantage generated by those numbers.

I'm still baffled as to why they would include such a damn buggy "training mode" in general in an otherwise highly polished game.
I haven't seen a confirmed hitstun multiplier or KB formula.

The wiki says the hitstun multiplier is 0.35 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Hitstun

I guess if we assume the brawl formula for KB and use the frame data we have I could see if this is accurate. Maybe a little tweeking...

I'm going to assume 10 damage from DA, 11 damage from Uair. So for a 100 weight character with standard gravity, that gives us 29 frames for a 0% dash attack. Let me check vs. some actual weight and gravity against this list.

I'm still only getting 29 for Mario, so there must be a different KB formula than brawl or the multiplier on the wiki is wrong, or something.
 
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KayJay

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
530
Location
Austria
NNID
KayJay84
3DS FC
1848-1677-7521
I did some initial testing last night vs airdodge and I'm not 100% convinced by your numbers. A lot of 0% were escapable, and failed quite consistently even with a frame perfect J -> CS. It would be good to have other people test this to get a 3rd opinion, the skype group in particular.
Testing in training mode it was definitely landing lower than combo counter indicated below the ranges described in the combo thread - definitely confirmed - the airdodge began but was interrupted in its first few frames. Did this in slow motion many times and even took some full motion vid that I afterwards slowed down.
It means the combo width is definitely larger than indicated by the combo counter (by a fair fraction, like an additional 10-20% in some cases) , though we should have other people test to see if they can replicate your really low end ranges.
The minimum % range was tested mostly against DI and Non-DI, Airdodge was included in the testing to define the maximum % range.
I will revisit every character to optimise the reliable minimum % range.
Started with Mario, he can't escape via airdodge at 3% (Dash Attack starter) and 10% (D-Throw starter). (auto-fire controller for airdodge testing so it's 100% accurate)

Edit: completed Mario - Ryu
 
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DungeonMaster

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 22, 2014
Messages
1,055
Location
Ottawa
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Dalaeck
Hey that's crazy good news! It basically means that visually anytime you can clip the target with up-air roughly level with Samus you can get a CS beyond basically zero + some change.
I didn't even know there were autofire controllers for the Wii U until you mentioned it.

Would you mind labbing some additional things with your turbofire air-dodge?
Could you please test the dash -> up-air -> d-air which NEVER registers as a combo?
Also as part of my re-working the combo thread into use-able chains can you test a theory of mine?

Can you complete the following combo chain?
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt (any % where character is visually impact stunned and not spiked - no bounce)
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
D-air -> Upsmash
D-air -> FJ -> D-air -> J -> CS (New currently unlisted combo tree - registers in counter but you may need a few more % - frame cancel the d-air)

I expect first 3 steps no-fail.

If that one fails on final step test this one:
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
Up-Tilt -> FJ CS (should all work up to here)
make the target jump and intercept it in mid-air at the height of your jump with
FJ D-air -> J CS

(If you're still interested and CS fails, try more forgiving up-B variants)

I have been landing some pretty sexy looking aerial spikes into X recently even against pathological air-dodgers, I'm wondering if the combo counter is actually wrong in our favour "in the air", Like there is some coding mistake somewhere.

Also you should make distinction for 6% sourspot on dash - I can align peach quite reliably at higher % than what you have listed (like up to ~14%).
 
Last edited:

KayJay

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
530
Location
Austria
NNID
KayJay84
3DS FC
1848-1677-7521
Hey that's crazy good news! It basically means that visually anytime you can clip the target with up-air roughly level with Samus you can get a CS beyond basically zero + some change.
I didn't even know there were autofire controllers for the Wii U until you mentioned it.
It's a Hori Classic Controller Pro for Wii which also works on the Wii U.

Would you mind labbing some additional things with your turbofire air-dodge?
Could you please test the dash -> up-air -> d-air which NEVER registers as a combo?
Also as part of my re-working the combo thread into use-able chains can you test a theory of mine?

Can you complete the following combo chain?
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt (any % where character is visually impact stunned and not spiked - no bounce)
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
D-air -> Upsmash
D-air -> FJ -> D-air -> J -> CS (New currently unlisted combo tree - registers in counter but you may need a few more % - frame cancel the d-air)

I expect first 3 steps no-fail.

If that one fails on final step test this one:
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
Up-Tilt -> FJ CS (should all work up to here)
make the target jump and intercept it in mid-air at the height of your jump with
FJ D-air -> J CS

(If you're still interested and CS fails, try more forgiving up-B variants)

I have been landing some pretty sexy looking aerial spikes into X recently even against pathological air-dodgers, I'm wondering if the combo counter is actually wrong in our favour "in the air", Like there is some coding mistake somewhere.
After I've finished my list.

Also you should make distinction for 6% sourspot on dash - I can align peach quite reliably at higher % than what you have listed (like up to ~14%).
Peach can float-cancel before she can jump out of hitstun, she escapes with her levitation because of that. (I even think nobody from the Peach board knows about that float-cancel yet)
 
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JAZZ_

The Armored Artist
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Jan 16, 2015
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childofgalifrey
Peach can float-cancel before she can jump out of hitstun, she escapes with her levitation because of that. (I even think nobody from the Peach board knows about that float-cancel yet)
so shhhhhhhhhhh :)
 

Xygonn

Smash Ace
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Seattle Area
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xygonn
I suspect the multiplier is the same as brawl at 0.4. Mario has a 2 frame vulnerable air dodge. With 21% damage (0% before Dash attack) I get 33 frames (plus 2 for air dodge=35) to get to the next frame I need mario to be at 24%
Hey that's crazy good news! It basically means that visually anytime you can clip the target with up-air roughly level with Samus you can get a CS beyond basically zero + some change.
I didn't even know there were autofire controllers for the Wii U until you mentioned it.

Would you mind labbing some additional things with your turbofire air-dodge?
Could you please test the dash -> up-air -> d-air which NEVER registers as a combo?
Also as part of my re-working the combo thread into use-able chains can you test a theory of mine?

Can you complete the following combo chain?
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt (any % where character is visually impact stunned and not spiked - no bounce)
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
D-air -> Upsmash
D-air -> FJ -> D-air -> J -> CS (New currently unlisted combo tree - registers in counter but you may need a few more % - frame cancel the d-air)

I expect first 3 steps no-fail.

If that one fails on final step test this one:
Up-Tilt -> D-tilt
Up-Tilt -> Up-Tilt
Up-Tilt -> FJ CS (should all work up to here)
make the target jump and intercept it in mid-air at the height of your jump with
FJ D-air -> J CS

(If you're still interested and CS fails, try more forgiving up-B variants)

I have been landing some pretty sexy looking aerial spikes into X recently even against pathological air-dodgers, I'm wondering if the combo counter is actually wrong in our favour "in the air", Like there is some coding mistake somewhere.

Also you should make distinction for 6% sourspot on dash - I can align peach quite reliably at higher % than what you have listed (like up to ~14%).
Turbo GC controllers are easy to come by.
 

DungeonMaster

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I am for the record, a moron. I own a hori wii fighting stick with turbo functionality that I've never used and it's only this discussion that prompted me to check if it does.
Please check regardless, I will do some additional testing myself now that I can use my big toe to airdodge at 20 inputs/s. :p
 

DungeonMaster

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So I did some extensive testing with turbo mode air-dodges last evening.
If you don't follow the combo thread about two months ago I listed my thoughts on the combos vs. air-dodge: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-samus-combo-and-string-list.391853/page-5#post-19572769
Everything I said in that post, from purely empirical observation fighting humans, is precisely accurate using automated turbo mode air-dodge.
The funny, and I say "funny" in the loosest possible sense - should be read as gross programming incompetence, the funny thing is the combo counter can be SO WRONG at high percents as to allow the opponent to air-dodge and then have d-air connect and STILL register it as a true combo. That's going in the video. That really needs to be shamed.
Also up-tilt -> CS and d-air CS (standing on-the ground versions) are considerably more reliable than the counter indicates. It hits the air-dodge activation frames at lower percents.
 

Zaprong

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
91
You guys shouldn't really rely on the combo counter since it registers mario's side b to side b to infinite side b as a true combo lol

Edit: Can't you follow this combo with a Zair as at least a string?

If they airdodge the Zair they would theorically be in a really bad position offstage so I'm curious
 
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KayJay

Smash Ace
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Austria
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Absolutely completed every Min. % & Max. % Range, only Lucas, Miis and Shulks Monados are missing.

I recommend setting Jump to either Z or R for frame perfect FJ U-Air's via C-Stick which is required for some % Hits I achieved. (Min. % Range against Roy for example)
 
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DungeonMaster

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Big thanks KayJay, I'll test for Lucas since you don't have him sometime next week.
I have also been testing with the d-air variants, the reason these never land is because there is 1 frame and only 1 frame on the up-air follow up where you can possibly land the d-air. The d-air sourspots seem guaranteed, the spike, not so much.
It's really, really tight, it really begs the question why in the hell they designed it so tight. It's a bit ridiculous.
 

E.Lopez

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Jan 30, 2015
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(near) Dallas, Texas
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roykoopa64
Hey guys, so I'm still struggling with certain aspects of Smash play, and this combo is one thing I don't quite understand how to pull off.

So I'm in training mode against ROB, I've set the damage meter to 30%, I'm using the dash attack starter, and for the life of me I can't get the CS to true combo (according to the training mode combo window) after the u-air finishes up. It seems like I'm getting my jump into CS the earliest moment possible after the u-air is done, but it doesn't register.

I'm watching and re-watching KayJay's video in the OP, particularly against ROB at 1:34, and I'm trying to adjust my timing to match his, but I'm not doing something right.

I was struggling with this even before, when I posted about it in DungeonMaster's combo thread. Are there any additional details someone could provide regarding the timing of the moves? You would think from the watching the video I could figure it out, sorry!

I thought what I had to do was, after the dash attack, wait at the last possible moment to hit with a FJ u-air at the highest point of ROB's hurtbox so he's not too high above Samus when I use CS. But in KayJay's video the timing doesn't seem to be that stringent.

I wish I had a capture card so I could show you guys what I'm doing and maybe find out what I'm doing wrong.

EDIT: I was only trying 30% because that's what KayJay showed off in the video against ROB, but I now see in the OP the range for ROB with dash attack starter is 4 - 32%, so I might try going for something more in the middle.
 
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DungeonMaster

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@ E.Lopez E.Lopez yeah the point of this thread is that the combo counter will NOT register it as a true combo over much of the range. You hit them in the airdodge startup frames.
Near the end of the range, you should however be able to do it. From 20-30% damage it should register in the combo counter on ROB (see combo thread).
What you want to do is to clip the target with Samus so that the bulk of their model is below the up-air spin axis. They you jump into them and hit "B" letting go of the stick to get the CS.
There's a "feel" to it. The way to practice up-air -> CS is to start with up-tilt -> up-air -> CS, because the up-tilt sends them into just the right position. Start with the up-tilt right up close, right in their face.
Dash as a starter has to be positioned just right to get the counter to register it. If it gives you any succor I fail at getting the dash combo to register half the times I try it in training mode...
 

E.Lopez

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@ DungeonMaster DungeonMaster , awesome man, thanks. Yeah, I went back and started practicing up-air -> CS by using up-tilt -> up-air -> CS on ROB, and I can pull it off more consistently with that particular combo, for sure (true combo register).

Yeah, now I better understand what differentiates this thread now in terms of combo counter not registering. I was just fixated on KayJay's OP video where it does register at 1:34, but I couldn't do it myself.

Hmm, well, at least now I know it is rather difficult using the dash starter to get the counter to register it. I take it d-throw as starter is also a bit difficult since you have to do a short dash approach prior to the u-air?
 

KayJay

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Updated OP with a new list that may interest many Samus players.
It takes a look at our Jab, the percentage-range of when we actually get rid of the frame disadvantage.
The list still isn't complete but it will be updated soon.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Nice list, this reminds me I have to start jabing Wario.... I haven't yet double checked your CS combo numbers, getting back into work has slowed my lab time to zero... later this week unlikely as well.
 
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KayJay

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Jab1 percent-chart completed, only Lucas is missing.
 
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KayJay

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Updated OP:

Samus's D-Tilt - catching landings


Most players will expect you to camp / start charging your CS after you launched them. Surprise them by rushing into their face with a Shielddash into D-Tilt.

Samus's Foxtrot-Dance

Good for baiting and finding an opening for her Dash Attack combostarter.
 
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Jonny Westside

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All this info is Kreygasm. What do we have on footstools? I've been toying around with SH Nair into stuff but I don't wanna create a big thing about it if it's already been written up and posted.
 

zblaqk

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All this info is Kreygasm. What do we have on footstools? I've been toying around with SH Nair into stuff but I don't wanna create a big thing about it if it's already been written up and posted.
Not really much tbh. I was actually looking into it myself.
 
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Jonny Westside

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Not really much tbh. I was actually looking into it myself.
Oh alright. I have base % on all characters written down that I haven't posted. I wanted to see if anyone's done it already so I can compare notes.
 

Xygonn

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Oh alright. I have base % on all characters written down that I haven't posted. I wanted to see if anyone's done it already so I can compare notes.
Yeah, if you have something good on footstools I think everyone is interested. It's hard for samus to get down from the footstool to do anything that's guaranteed.
 

Jonny Westside

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Yeah, if you have something good on footstools I think everyone is interested. It's hard for samus to get down from the footstool to do anything that's guaranteed.
For sure, what I have isn't guaranteed, but I'll release it after genesis since I think it's at least worth sharing.
 

KayJay

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Updated OP with a very good AT:

Samus's Tether Ledge Trump
We are ZSS now?
 
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White_Pointer

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I have something I wouldn't mind you labbing if you have the time.

Completely by accident in one game, I dropped a bomb while facing away from the edge. My opponent did a ledge get up and the bomb seemed to push him towards me where I was able to get a free forward smash for a kill.

It got me wondering whether Samus' bomb works in a similar way to ROB's gyro in that it pushes the opponent in the direction Samus was facing when she dropped it (even if it's only a small amount). It's entirely possible that my opponent was just DIing poorly and was holding the direction onto the stage as he did his ledge get up, but that's why I'd like it tested. It could be an interesting way to mix up your edge guarding if it's true.
 
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Afro Smash

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I have something I wouldn't mind you labbing if you have the time.

Completely by accident in one game, I dropped a bomb while facing away from the edge. My opponent did a ledge get up and the bomb seemed to push him towards me where I was able to get a free forward smash for a kill.

It got me wondering whether Samus' bomb works in a similar way to ROB's gyro in that it pushes the opponent in the direction Samus was facing when she dropped it (even if it's only a small amount). It's entirely possible that my opponent was just DIing poorly and was holding the direction onto the stage as he did his ledge get up, but that's why I'd like it tested. It could be an interesting way to mix up your edge guarding if it's true.
Bombs just send them in the direction opposite the side of them you laid it on, so if it explodes to the right of them they'll be sent left and vice versa. Works the same with Up Air and Screw Attack
 

Jonny Westside

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I've been doing this edgeguard trick vs Fox/Falco a lot and I'm not sure if it's common knowledge. Could be useful for people struggling with the MU

 

KayJay

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Updated OP:

Samus's Frame Perfect Short Hop double U-Air
 
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MegaRiff

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Updated OP:

Samus's Frame Perfect Short Hop double U-Air
Great find. I changed my button layout just for this. Unfortunatey, against a good player, this ain't as easy to pull off. Played against one last night. He would grab me before my second up air would come out, or would block my dtilt after the second up air hit, since it's not a true combo. BUT! There were times when it saved my ass. This ought to improve my gameplay for sure.
 

KayJay

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Added to the OP:

Frame Perfect Short Hop U-Air fully connecting against a standing opponent, List of characters:

Character
Bowser
Rosalina
Bowser Jr
Wario
Donkey Kong
Link
Ganondorf
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Palutena
Ike
King Dedede
Falco
Rob
Captain Falcon
Shulk
Dark Pit
Mewtwo
Cloud
Bayonetta
Note: It can also fully connect on standing Luigi, Zelda, Duck Hunt, Charizard, Pac-Man, Sonic and Ryu but it will miss more often.
 
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