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Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

SypherPhoenix

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,563
Location
Fairfax, VA
My post was focused on the number of possible heights, patterns were no real concern. If you did lots of different retakes back then to find patterns, I'm sure your findings are more correct in that regard.
Where did you publish them?
I never published the data because I never got any real results aside from "they're basically unpredictable." I don't even know if I still have it laying around. I was just curious about your methodology because I found there to only be certain distinct heights, not the 150k that you've found. Like I said though, my methods weren't that rigorous; it was done using screenshots.
 

Kaoak

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
60
Hey Kadano, I was wondering what are the optimal follow-ups against Fox and Falco when using the fthrow/uthrow mix-up to throw them offstage. If they DI in on fthrow what moves can you hit at different percents, if they DI out on up throw when can you down air / up b for the kill? Also is there any percents where fthrow dtilt is guaranteed off of any DI provided the fox/falco is offstage?
 

Decipio-Carmen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
88
There doesn't seem to be info on DI'ing out of Fox's uthrow uair in the first post bit I might have missed it. Is there a % threshold for SDI'ing out of Fox's uthrow uair? Also from some frame-by-frame tests I've done on dolphin, it seems that if Fox's legs overlap with Marth when the first hit of the uair connects, SDI won't get Marth away from the second hit even at high percents, but I haven't tested SDI'ing in every direction. Can anyone point me towards info on this subject?
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
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Feb 26, 2009
Messages
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Vienna, Austria
There doesn't seem to be info on DI'ing out of Fox's uthrow uair in the first post bit I might have missed it. Is there a % threshold for SDI'ing out of Fox's uthrow uair? Also from some frame-by-frame tests I've done on dolphin, it seems that if Fox's legs overlap with Marth when the first hit of the uair connects, SDI won't get Marth away from the second hit even at high percents, but I haven't tested SDI'ing in every direction. Can anyone point me towards info on this subject?
Yeah, the tests I did were so disappointing for Marth, I decided not to publish them here because it would help Fox players more than Marth players. Basically if Fox spaces correctly, 1SDI is not enough for Marth to escape the second hit.
 
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Decipio-Carmen

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
88
Yeah, the tests I did were so disappointing for Marth, I decided not to publish them here because it would help Fox players more than Marth players. Basically if Fox spaces correctly, 1SDI is not enough for Marth to escape the second hit.
What about 2 stick DI or Multiple Smash DI?
 

DaLung

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
11
Hi,
at one point (cannot remember which page) Kadano writes about a specific angle Fox (0-12%) can use against Marth's CG (slight behind).

Can someone tell me
1. How to read the value of the angle? Is it up-and-back on the controlstick or down-and-back and does it make a difference? (against Marth's Uthrow) What are the values of up/right/down/left?
2. Where I can find it again? I tried to find it, but couldn't..

Best Regards
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Hi,
at one point (cannot remember which page) Kadano writes about a specific angle Fox (0-12%) can use against Marth's CG (slight behind).

Can someone tell me
1. How to read the value of the angle? Is it up-and-back on the controlstick or down-and-back and does it make a difference? (against Marth's Uthrow) What are the values of up/right/down/left?
2. Where I can find it again? I tried to find it, but couldn't..

Best Regards
1. It's the slightest offset from 0 horizontally that reads inputs. |x| = 0.2875 to about 0.35 with Magus input display.

2. I mentioned it a few times somewhere, but I don't think I ever indexed it yet or put it on the front lines. Haven't done proper documentation for it that would deserve that, and I would only do that within a complete chaingrab breakdown, which would be at least a month of full-time research (can't afford to do that still, so this project is on indefinite hold-off for now).
 
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DaLung

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2014
Messages
11
1. It's the slightest offset from 0 horizontally that reads inputs. |x| = 0.2875 to about 0.35 with Magus input display.

2. I mentioned it a few times somewhere, but I don't think I ever indexed it yet or put it on the front lines. Haven't done proper documentation for it that would deserve that, and I would only do that within a complete chaingrab breakdown, which would be at least a month of full-time research (can't afford to do that still, so this project is on indefinite hold-off for now).
Thx for the immediate response!

2. That's why I couldn't find it right away!

1. But where to hold it practically? How to 'read' the angles (which you also mention in the Jiggs vs Marth part)?

ps. Kann ich Dich auf Skype o.ä. adden, wir sprechen die selbe Sprache ;)
 

Sutekh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
142
Lately I've been working on ledge-teching after an up-b, but I've been having trouble getting it consistently. What I'm curious about is, can you input a tech buffer on the same frame you input an attack (obviously up-b in this case), or is there a window after I up-b that I can't input a tech?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Lately I've been working on ledge-teching after an up-b, but I've been having trouble getting it consistently. What I'm curious about is, can you input a tech buffer on the same frame you input an attack (obviously up-b in this case), or is there a window after I up-b that I can't input a tech?
There is no such limitation, else I would have mentioned it in my video on teching.
 

Dr3amSm4sher

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
54
Is it humanely possible to fast fall after doing a shield drop with the notch? I cannot seem to do it ever
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
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Jun 1, 2013
Messages
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About the outcome of the Marth f/dthrow against Jigglypuff.

I will assume we are centerstage and therefore disregard options 7, 8, and also disregard 4, 6, 1 because it is stricly worse than 3 if 3 leads to a KO.
Also Jigglypuff would never DI at 180° (where 1, 3, 5 hit) because DIing to where only 1, 3 hit is possible. That means in the relevant situations, 5 is worse than 2.
We are left with 2, 3 and Jigglypuff can choose ~150°, 225° (SW) to counter one of them.
So it is a 50-50.
If the Jigglypuff player is unfamiliar, option 3 is probably better because it covers more angles in total.

About general methodology of theorycrafting neutral game / read-based situations:
I am honestly surprised I haven't seen anyone estimate neutral game situations with Nash equilibria yet, since it is in a way the equivalent to what the flow chart is in the punish game. How to apply it is pretty easy.

1. Write down the options of player 1 in the rows, the options of player 2 in the columns. Note that you want to write down an option that you have to commit to before you can react again, so you don't want to list "shine", but rather list "shine WD back", "shinegrab", "shine nair" and so on as separate options. The options you list should at least take as long as your reaction time.

2. Assign values to the individual option matchups. Please don't use percentage, because it leaves the stage position/followup perspectives out. You could work with "centistocks", in this case taking someone's stock guaranteed with no read required afterwards would equivalent to 100. It takes some intuition to esimate the values, but from my experience having some imprecise values isn't as big of a deal, and you can always adjust them.
Assign the values from player 1's perspective.

3. Use some program or site like this.
In the example, enter the following things:
dimension: [row number] [column number]
payoff matrix for player 1: [your table]
type of game: Zerosum
Submit

Somewhere it should say EP (expected payoff), this is what player 1 gets in average if both sides play correctly.
You should look to the row where it says EE (extreme equilibrium): It gives the probability of using that option in the equilibrium, if there are multiple EEs, everything inbetween is an equilibrium. Write the values for both players down

4. The interpretation: Learn, experiment, adjust
Compare the numbers with the probabilities you would use an option in a certain situation. What should be done differently. You can also analyze different situations with slight adjustments by deleting a few options (for example deleting "roll away" to look at situaions where you are at the edge of the stage). You can also find that the results don't feel right and find the cause for that (false sign on a payoff value, left out an important option, estimated a option matchup wrongly).

I will give a pretty generic example, which is just a proof of concept and should be done differently for actual results:

I just used +1 for winning neutral and -1 for losing neutral for simplicity reasons. iirc the EP was +0.15
The player in the rows is standing in front of the player in the columns who is shielding.
If we just pretend this would correctly describe the situation, this would be my example interpretation (so don't take it word for word):

Grab is obviously a strong option for player 1, but it isn't used nearly half of the time optimally.
The overusage of grab in this situation seems to be the reason why player 2's opt to use spot dodge here at least sometimes, which would be a rather poor option if player 1 mixes it up better.
Wait in shield is surprisingly (or not?) a good option for player 2, wait in shield here means waiting for one reaction time length so the time you stay in shield in average should not be that high.
It should be noted that the equilibrium is composed of >5 different options, while players often just use 2 or 3.
Roll in could be better if we give it higher values for centerstage if it works, and if roll awawy is no option.
Specific tests to simulate the same on platforms could also be done.
 

Pauer

The Pauerful
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About general methodology of theorycrafting neutral game / read-based situations:
I am honestly surprised I haven't seen anyone estimate neutral game situations with Nash equilibria yet, since it is in a way the equivalent to what the flow chart is in the punish game. How to apply it is pretty easy.

1. Write down the options of player 1 in the rows, the options of player 2 in the columns. Note that you want to write down an option that you have to commit to before you can react again, so you don't want to list "shine", but rather list "shine WD back", "shinegrab", "shine nair" and so on as separate options. The options you list should at least take as long as your reaction time.

2. Assign values to the individual option matchups. Please don't use percentage, because it leaves the stage position/followup perspectives out. You could work with "centistocks", in this case taking someone's stock guaranteed with no read required afterwards would equivalent to 100. It takes some intuition to esimate the values, but from my experience having some imprecise values isn't as big of a deal, and you can always adjust them.
Assign the values from player 1's perspective.

3. Use some program or site like this.
In the example, enter the following things:
dimension: [row number] [column number]
payoff matrix for player 1: [your table]
type of game: Zerosum
Submit

Somewhere it should say EP (expected payoff), this is what player 1 gets in average if both sides play correctly.
You should look to the row where it says EE (extreme equilibrium): It gives the probability of using that option in the equilibrium, if there are multiple EEs, everything inbetween is an equilibrium. Write the values for both players down

4. The interpretation: Learn, experiment, adjust
Compare the numbers with the probabilities you would use an option in a certain situation. What should be done differently. You can also analyze different situations with slight adjustments by deleting a few options (for example deleting "roll away" to look at situaions where you are at the edge of the stage). You can also find that the results don't feel right and find the cause for that (false sign on a payoff value, left out an important option, estimated a option matchup wrongly).

I will give a pretty generic example, which is just a proof of concept and should be done differently for actual results:

I just used +1 for winning neutral and -1 for losing neutral for simplicity reasons. iirc the EP was +0.15
The player in the rows is standing in front of the player in the columns who is shielding.
If we just pretend this would correctly describe the situation, this would be my example interpretation (so don't take it word for word):

Grab is obviously a strong option for player 1, but it isn't used nearly half of the time optimally.
The overusage of grab in this situation seems to be the reason why player 2's opt to use spot dodge here at least sometimes, which would be a rather poor option if player 1 mixes it up better.
Wait in shield is surprisingly (or not?) a good option for player 2, wait in shield here means waiting for one reaction time length so the time you stay in shield in average should not be that high.
It should be noted that the equilibrium is composed of >5 different options, while players often just use 2 or 3.
Roll in could be better if we give it higher values for centerstage if it works, and if roll awawy is no option.
Specific tests to simulate the same on platforms could also be done.
I think the idea that melee situations can be broken down into a rock-paper-scissor game is shared among all competent players. And from reading a lot of melee-related content, I noticed that many people do in fact understand that you will find an equilibrium distribution on how often to do which option in a specific situation. (though none explicitly named nash-equilibria)

The problem in trying to find a nash-equilibrium is that you only find an optimal solution against an optimal opponent.
Let's imagine that you and your opponent were to be aware of all options and the optimal probability of using every option. Then in play, you and your opponent will try to play according to that distribution. However, even in this case, humans will fall into patterns - just try to quickly write out some random numbers between 0 and 9, it's impossible not to have patterns. This means that even in that case, it is best to play suboptimal and 'optimize' with regards to the human you are playing against rather than an optimal enemy.
Now if you stop assuming your opponent plays optimally, you will find that you need to play suboptimally yourself to get the most payoff against a suboptimal opponent. For example, if you know your opponent always DIs inward at high percent, you can always go for a combo move like weak fair to set up for dair although optimally you should sometimes do strong attacks like bair in case he DIs out.
I believe the further you think this through, the more important it appears to optimize for your opponent's patterns and flaws.
 

Shiftyy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
32
Hey, just posting here to ask if there's anything on Marth's throw followups in the ditto. Is there anything that's guaranteed? Even if it's DI dependent, would be very helpful. The only thing I know of is forward throw into dash attack at certain percents.
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
1,753
Location
Bonn, Germany
I think the idea that melee situations can be broken down into a rock-paper-scissor game is shared among all competent players. And from reading a lot of melee-related content, I noticed that many people do in fact understand that you will find an equilibrium distribution on how often to do which option in a specific situation. (though none explicitly named nash-equilibria)

The problem in trying to find a nash-equilibrium is that you only find an optimal solution against an optimal opponent.
Let's imagine that you and your opponent were to be aware of all options and the optimal probability of using every option. Then in play, you and your opponent will try to play according to that distribution. However, even in this case, humans will fall into patterns - just try to quickly write out some random numbers between 0 and 9, it's impossible not to have patterns. This means that even in that case, it is best to play suboptimal and 'optimize' with regards to the human you are playing against rather than an optimal enemy.
Now if you stop assuming your opponent plays optimally, you will find that you need to play suboptimally yourself to get the most payoff against a suboptimal opponent. For example, if you know your opponent always DIs inward at high percent, you can always go for a combo move like weak fair to set up for dair although optimally you should sometimes do strong attacks like bair in case he DIs out.
I believe the further you think this through, the more important it appears to optimize for your opponent's patterns and flaws.
I see your point, and the point of my post wasn't that you should always play according to NE, but knowing it helps in either case. The idea should be to make the individual decisions based on other mindgame cues, but having the NE in mind, having it as backup option if you feel like the other player is reading you, knowing which options not to use, and being able to categorize the opponent's pattern easier (after all, you can also find out what is best against someone that doesn't use one of the specific options). The last one is probably most important since it is often hard to spot what the opponent is not doing when not comparing with something else. The higher the level gets, the more important it gets, and between players that haven't played each other a lot "exploring" (throwing out different, not necessarily optimal options to collect information) is still the way to go.

About having patterns when trying to throw out moves with probabilities, I think it is possible to have little enough patterns to be negligible, but you need to practice it (like everything). There are obvious biases towards options that have worked, away from options that haven't worked, away from repeating the same option (if you are aware of it), towards the strongest option (using the option that has the highest share in the NE way more often), away from similar options that cover similar options, for some players towards safer and for some players towards more rewarding options, and so on. If one is aware of the patterns, it is possible to work on them.

try to quickly write out some random numbers between 0 and 9
4 1 9 2 2 5 5 1 5 0
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
Hey, just posting here to ask if there's anything on Marth's throw followups in the ditto. Is there anything that's guaranteed? Even if it's DI dependent, would be very helpful. The only thing I know of is forward throw into dash attack at certain percents.
If you read the index in the first post you'd see that uthrow uair works for a large percentage range. Fthrow fsmash and dthrow fsmash work on bad DI. Fthrow dash pivot fsmash works against bad DI too at higher percents.
 

blue cheez

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2007
Messages
44
About the outcome of the Marth f/dthrow against Jigglypuff.
I am honestly surprised I haven't seen anyone estimate neutral game situations with Nash equilibria yet, since it is in a way the equivalent to what the flow chart is in the punish game. How to apply it is pretty easy.
Thanks to #SplitsOnTrees for pointing out this thread to me. In the peach subforum I wrote a write-up on how game theory can be applied to melee. You can find it here. I've specifically looked at RPS situations after peach hits an opponent on shield with various frame advantages, but the write-up is meant to be a general introduction to game theory and how any melee player can use it.

To be honest, Chesstiger2612, I expect that you will be familiar with most (if not all) of the content in the write-up. But if we start talking about "optimal mix-ups" and nash equilibrums, I think it's best that the rest of the community has some clear documentation to understand what the hell we are doing and why it works.

I'm happy to collaborate with you if you're interested in this kind of stuff. There are quite a few cool "advanced topics" that I'd like some feedback on.

That being said, I think there are a number of simpler things I think we will disagree on. I'll admit I probably haven't spent enough time on this thread to fully understand the game theory situation you're analyzing. For example, I think that "average percent" is a more accurate heuristic than a simple boolean (win/loss) assignment when estimating elements of the payoff matrix. (although, you mention that maybe some "percent of total stock" is a good heuristic. I agree with this, but it doesn't seem like you don't use this in your payoff matrix?) I discuss the issue of using an accurate heuristic in the writeup, but in a nutshell, "average percent" becomes sufficient if you either:
1. break each possiblity into further subgames. Thus you will eventually encapsulate abstract positional concepts into actual restriction/proliferation of options. (i.e. getting hit off the stage might only look like a small "average percent," but the subgames will make it clear it leads to a much higher payout since the guy hit off the stage is gonna die). But dealing with subgames is, I believe, too hard to do in most situations without developing an AI.
2. Alternatively payouts per option can be determined experimentally. I think theorycrafters will hate this, but I think it's a good option. If you look at a top player and break down his options as a function of particular situation, you can determine the average payoff of that situation. (ie, you look at armada hitting fox's shield in the middle of FD, and you see how much damage on average occurs if he downsmashes vs grabs). Yes top players may not be playing at nash equilibrum, and yes things can be messy when options simply chain into advantageous stage positioning, but on average I think it functions as a pretty decent starting place.

My plan is to write a more peach-specific write-up/guide on what mix-ups are optimal in what situations (characters/stages/etc). I have a lot of tables of nash equilibrums and I just need to clean things up a bit before posting my results. You can find a link to some of that data here if you're interested.
After that I'm planning doing a more general "neutral game" analysis using heatmaps to establish which characters are "winning" when both characters are simply standing at different positions. (e.g. when fox is very close to marth, marth does not have enough time to physically see him run up and grab in time for a specific reaction to that option, so marth is forced into a RPS situation sheerly by being too close to fox). Then the neutral game can be more precisely defined as each character playing the game of getting to the right position, so that they can play an advantageous subgame.

Anyway let me know what you think.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
Hey, just posting here to ask if there's anything on Marth's throw followups in the ditto. Is there anything that's guaranteed? Even if it's DI dependent, would be very helpful. The only thing I know of is forward throw into dash attack at certain percents.
If you read the index in the first post you'd see that uthrow uair works for a large percentage range. Fthrow fsmash and dthrow fsmash work on bad DI. Fthrow dash pivot fsmash works against bad DI too at higher percents.
Kadano's Marth uthrow on Marth chart only covers uthrow uair which often doesn't net you much afterward and is a difficult link. It seems clear to me that if uair combos at a wide percent range, surely full jump fair combos on away DI. Away DI followups from uthrow are easily attainable because they will likely be DIing away to avoid nasty fthrow combos.

Away DI followups from uthrow would also be useful to explore against Sheik, as surely utilt and fair are easier to land there and lead to strong punishes. Something like the Falcon chart would be very valuable if applied to all characters, though I'm sure that took Kadano A LOT of work.

Fthrow and uthrow mixup is very much a legit mixup but most of us only know what to do on bad DI from fthrows. It's probably about time we learned the counterplay to such a common DI.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
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Kadano's Marth uthrow on Marth chart only covers uthrow uair which often doesn't net you much afterward and is a difficult link.
1. Playing around in debug mode, it looks like fair combos on DIs away and behind on a similar percent range to uair. However, the link is just as hard as with uair, and it doesn't work on no DI or slight DI.
2. Uair nets you SO MUCH afterwards. What are you talking about!? It starts a juggle against which Marth has no legitimate way to get down. The uair will often steal their jump too making the juggle a lot easier.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
1. Playing around in debug mode, it looks like fair combos on DIs away and behind on a similar percent range to uair. However, the link is just as hard as with uair, and it doesn't work on no DI or slight DI.
2. Uair nets you SO MUCH afterwards. What are you talking about!? It starts a juggle against which Marth has no legitimate way to get down. The uair will often steal their jump too making the juggle a lot easier.
1. If you miss the link with fair, you end up in a better position than with uair since you can fast fall and autocancel earlier. The DI is easy to react to and you can still go for uair if they don't DI away. Fair is better though and you will catch them DIing away to escape fthrow combos.

2. On FD, yeah. On platform stages, Marth can simply double jump to safety to the top platform. I don't think comboer Marth can get back down to follow up in time unless it's Yoshi's Story and they tumble-land on the top platform. BTW fair also tends to catch jumps.

With fair, side platforms on non-FD stages actually help you continue a combo, though even if they don't in every particular position, fair leads to a combo or frame trap that prevents them from getting away. Keeping a good Marth above you on platform stages is not so free especially with the advent of shield dropping, it's much better to put them in a dangerous fair juggle that sends them offstage. Sometimes you can even get a Ken combo.
 

xXadevs2000Xx

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
122
In lieu of trying to perfectly time an action to survive, is it possible to buffer roll/spotdodge to prevent slipping off?
No, buffered spotdodge puts up shield for 1 frame, which will simply make you slide off in that odd tumble state after sliding off while holding shield.
 

Shiftyy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
32
Have a question about wavedashing backwards off the ledge. I've not figured out how exactly to WD backwards off the ledge and NOT grab the ledge, without throwing a move to prevent it.

Example: https://youtu.be/s63pPeyWasw?t=2372

My best guess has to do with the length of the wavedash + how close it's performed to the ledge, but any insight on the specifics of that would be great.
 

Life

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I don't have numbers, but I'd assume it's a matter of either A) horizontal velocity taking you too far away to grab edge or B) holding down so you don't grab it.
 

tm

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Have a question about wavedashing backwards off the ledge. I've not figured out how exactly to WD backwards off the ledge and NOT grab the ledge, without throwing a move to prevent it.

Example: https://youtu.be/s63pPeyWasw?t=2372

My best guess has to do with the length of the wavedash + how close it's performed to the ledge, but any insight on the specifics of that would be great.
In the clip you provided, M2K fastfell after wavedashing off (holding down prevents you from grabbing the ledge).
However it is sometimes possible to wavedash off and go far enough away to avoid grabbing the ledge without holding down (for some characters)
 

Shiftyy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
32
In the clip you provided, M2K fastfell after wavedashing off (holding down prevents you from grabbing the ledge).
However it is sometimes possible to wavedash off and go far enough away to avoid grabbing the ledge without holding down (for some characters)
Holy ****, I did not even think of that. Lol thanks
 

strawhats

Smash Master
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Feb 19, 2009
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Just wanted to say m2k played like a boss against armada...could've executed better in certain situations when closing out matches vs armada at Summit 2 but his Marth was definitely playing neutral more honestly/patiently (reminiscent of his 2007 playstyle). Now I wish he would translate that kind of marth play against Hbox's puff instead of going fox in some scenarios and sometimes against axe as well.
 

Darktruite

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
5
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Strasbourg,France
Hi guys . I would like to know if there is a post listing the base knockback of all marth's move ?
It is often easy to find damage but not base knockback and scaling .
 

Shiftyy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
32
Hey guys, I'm looking for an x-axis value for chainthrowing spacies. Does anyone know what the slightest DI is for Fox/Falco that Marth can still humanly react to, terms of knowing whether or not to turn around? I'd like to plug that value into my 20XX and practice chainthrowing, but I do know that the smallest value is pretty much unreactable. Or should I just input values until I find one that's reasonable?
 
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Life

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I don't think that's really a valuable thing to know, since one, not everyone will perceive the distance change quickly, and two, it'll vary based on what TV you're on almost certainly (since the difference will be physically larger on a bigger TV), unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Just play with the numbers until you find one you like.
 
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Tee ay eye

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Do you know any effective ways of punishing when people when you dthrow/fthrow them into the corner and they DI away and misstech/tech in place to get the slide off?
 

Life

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Grieving No Longer
Do you know any effective ways of punishing when people when you dthrow/fthrow them into the corner and they DI away and misstech/tech in place to get the slide off?
Speculating here, because it depends a lot on percent, weight, fall speed, etc., but couldn't you walk forward and dtilt them right after they slide off?
 
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