• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
Hey Kadano,

How can one consistently smash turn? I've used the empty pivot angle but I'm wondering if there's an easier way. I don't like using the "flick" method because it's unreliable.

Also, is there any way marth can guarantee covering the mixup of neutral getup and roll vs. opponents on the ledge? He's unique in that he doesn't really have any lasting hitboxes, and it frustrates me when opponents can get past me with cheesy options.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Hey Kadano,

How can one consistently smash turn? I've used the empty pivot angle but I'm wondering if there's an easier way. I don't like using the "flick" method because it's unreliable.
For which situation?
It should be the most consistent with these input angles (arrows down and left):

Also, is there any way marth can guarantee covering the mixup of neutral getup and roll vs. opponents on the ledge? He's unique in that he doesn't really have any lasting hitboxes, and it frustrates me when opponents can get past me with cheesy options.
Place a dtilt where they would stand up and react to the roll with grab. That’s how I do it at least.
 

tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
A few I've been theorycrafting:
Say you're facing away from an opponent. I want to be able to smash turn (now facing him) -> retreating fair.
Or to quickly get to the ledge from the middle of the stage when facing away from edge: WD forward, smashturn back, WD back.
Or to dash away from an opponent -> smashturn (now facing him) -> WD dtilt.

I'd rather use smashturns for all of these actions because as you know, you have to wait 4 frames to jump out of a tilt turn and be facing the correct way, which is quite significant when it comes to microinteractions like these.


Yeah, I've been trying to cover the ldege the same way Kadano. But sometimes I get clipped by getup attack too. I was hoping you had some frame breakdown you'd done in the past haha.
 
Last edited:

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,349
When you want to smash turn into anything involving jump, you can do that by just timing the jump, that's what I do.
 

tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
When you want to smash turn into anything involving jump, you can do that by just timing the jump, that's what I do.
What do you mean? You mean using the tilt turn, and just timing it? That's not optimal, and in the cases I described above, worthless because they're too slow.

Edit: Oh... I assume you mean inputting the jump action exactly 1 frame after the turn to avoid a dash. I was hoping for something more consistent/reliable.
 
Last edited:

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
@ T tonic
When you want to smash turn into anything involving jump, you can do that by just timing the jump, that's what I do.
Yup, I agree that’s the best way. If you do an “empty pivot” smash turn, you spend excess frames in turn when you could already jump, and you won’t even notice it, so it’s unlikely to improve over time. With full strength smash turn input and immediate jump, you’ll notice the momentum you get when you jumped at least 1 frame too late, so you can practice it until you don’t slide. As soon as you got that down, you are consistent at always getting smash turn without dash and with a frame perfect jump.
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
Kadano, I watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo. My question is about passivewalljump tec. You said that you can trigger the waljump tec by pressing X or Y 20 frames before impact or during the 4 frames of tec hitlag. I would like to start practicing this using 20XX using the 20 frame window as that sounds much easier. However, do the order of inputs matter when doing the jump? For example within the 20 frames before the tec, do I press R then X or would it be X then R? Or does the order even matter as long as I am getting both of the inputs in within the 20 frame window.
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
I went and practice with 20XX today and was hitting the walljump tech consistently like 5x in a row for the first time ever. Hooray me!
 

Rachman

be water my friend
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
229
Location
FL
1. What are the best guaranteed Sheik recovery punishes? What are the approximate frame windoww? (I realize it depends on how far she up B's onto the stage but in practice they won't because you can bair in they get too close) Assume FD so no platform mix ups.

2. What are the proper DIs to get out of Sheik's NTSC dthrow at 0? I DI up and away everytime Sheik throws me but I have essentially 0 Sheik XP so I'd like to know the best way to escape or what follow ups she gets at what percent off each general DI.

3. Just to be clear, Down and Away DI (not the technical term but we all know what I mean) makes Fthrow Fsmash never combo at any %s in the ditto right? Is there any DI that makes a Fair follow up hard/impossible while avoiding the Fsmash?

4. Is there an image detailing the differences in how far horizontally/vertically "angle" of dolphin slash reaches and where I should angle my control stick to achieve each "angle"?
 
Last edited:

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
1. What are the best guaranteed Sheik recovery punishes? What are the approximate frame windoww? (I realize it depends on how far she up B's onto the stage but in practice they won't because you can bair in they get too close) Assume FD so no platform mix ups.

2. What are the proper DIs to get out of Sheik's NTSC dthrow at 0? I DI up and away everytime Sheik throws me but I have essentially 0 Sheik XP so I'd like to know the best way to escape or what follow ups she gets at what percent off each general DI.

3. Just to be clear, Down and Away DI (not the technical term but we all know what I mean) makes Fthrow Fsmash never combo at any %s in the ditto right? Is there any DI that makes a Fair follow up hard/impossible while avoiding the Fsmash?

4. Is there an image detailing the differences in how far horizontally/vertically "angle" of dolphin slash reaches and where I should angle my control stick to achieve each "angle"?
1. Grab the ledge, press in to stand up when you see her poof. WD fsmash wherever she lands.

2. Sheik can follow up after any DI up to like mid 100% or something. If you DI slightly behind her, she is forced to combo you instead of regrab. SDI out of the utilt.

3. Yes. Depends on the character you throw.

4. Straight up for most vertical, straight sideways for the most horizontal.
 

tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
Hey Kadano,

A lot of your research on followups off of upthrow such as this one on Sheik has not-guaranteed 1-frame links. Were most of these followups tested with Marth as Player 1? Because of extra frame of followup when Marth is in a higher port than his opponent, wouldn't this technically allow a lot of not-guaranteed followups to become guaranteed, and allow a lot of difficult, frame-perfect followups leniency? If this is the case, I think having a higher port is extremely important for Marth.

Also, in the Sheik followups, how does FH fair stack up to FH upair? Is it ever guaranteed at mid-high percents? 50%+
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Hey Kadano,

A lot of your research on followups off of upthrow such as this one on Sheik has not-guaranteed 1-frame links. Were most of these followups tested with Marth as Player 1? Because of extra frame of followup when Marth is in a higher port than his opponent, wouldn't this technically allow a lot of not-guaranteed followups to become guaranteed, and allow a lot of difficult, frame-perfect followups leniency? If this is the case, I think having a higher port is extremely important for Marth.

Also, in the Sheik followups, how does FH fair stack up to FH upair? Is it ever guaranteed at mid-high percents? 50%+
I’m pretty sure that I did those tests with Marth as P1, yes. I agree that being P4 has big merits against Sheik concerning followups.
I have not tested fair specifically, but from what I remember, it should work at similar percentages as uair if Sheik DIs away.
 

AceDudeyeah

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
967
Location
Floridaa!
When people DI behind me to avoid the 3rd blue hit of my dancing blade by holding in during the first 2 hits, can I increase my chances of keeping them in front of me and thus hitting with the 3rd hit by doing the up-variation of the second green dancing blade?

If so, does smash DI circumvent the up-variation as well?
 
Last edited:

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
When people DI behind me to avoid the 3rd blue hit of my dancing blade by holding in during the first 2 hits, can I increase my chances of keeping them in front of me and thus hitting with the 3rd hit by doing the up-variation of the second green dancing blade?

If so, does smash DI circumvent the up-variation as well?
The hitboxes of the up DB2 send at these angles, 90, 90, 85, 79, attributed to the same hitboxes in this image of normal DB2. So the highest priority one sends at 90, the tip sends at 90, and the hilt at 79. In general, more upwards. The difference is only a few degrees though. I didn't test it rigorously but I doubt the slightly different angles will help you. The up variation also has low KB growth and higher base knockback so it's KB doesn't change as much as other moves based on percent. This doesn't really help though.

Smash DI would certainly get the opponent out all the time.

IMO dancing blade is a bad move that should never* be used past the first hit.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
IMO dancing blade is a bad move that should never* be used past the first hit.
I was digging around once before on dancing blades and came across the fact that DB2H has incredibly high base knockback for the move. Which explains the few times I used the move how much it seemed to pop people up in the air.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Now that I found this thing it puts more merit behind the idea. BKB is a pretty key component to the amount of hitstun compared to percentage, weight, and KBG. DB2H has BKB values of 30,60, 70, and 85.

My idea is to hit with DB2H and stop using dancing blades.

* 30 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 15 frames which makes you have a 13 to 10 frames disadvantage on hitting with DB2H.
* 60 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 25-27 frames hitstun which allows Marth to have anywhere from a 2 frame advantage to a 3 frame disadvantage.
* 85 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 37 frames of histun allowing Marth 9-12 frames advantage.

Given this information going into DB2H is a decent move to hit with. It pops people up into the air which Marth is fine with due to his disjoint. Plus, the move seems to give enough of a frame advantage on 3 of its hitboxes that Marth can exit DB2H ending lag with no disadvantage. The hitstun will increase with percentage. By the time you enter 100% you gain an extra like 8 frames overall.

The only things that prevent this move from being useful are the needs to connect with DB1 in the first place and with the right angle to connect with DB2H. Not to mention that I am not sure if the launch is enough on fast fallers like Sheik, Fox, or Falco to even use properly. I wish I knew what bones 76, 71, and 25 were on Marth along with the offsets. oh, and the fact that the swing is upwards and can avoid low profile targets (SHEIK).
 
Last edited:

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I was digging around once before on dancing blades and came across the fact that DB2H has incredibly high base knockback for the move. Which explains the few times I used the move how much it seemed to pop people up in the air.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

Now that I found this thing it puts more merit behind the idea. BKB is a pretty key component to the amount of hitstun compared to percentage, weight, and KBG. DB2H has BKB values of 30,60, 70, and 85.

My idea is to hit with DB2H and stop using dancing blades.

* 30 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 15 frames which makes you have a 13 to 10 frames disadvantage on hitting with DB2H.
* 60 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 25-27 frames hitstun which allows Marth to have anywhere from a 2 frame advantage to a 3 frame disadvantage.
* 85 BKB value on any character at 0% gives you 37 frames of histun allowing Marth 9-12 frames advantage.

Given this information going into DB2H is a decent move to hit with. It pops people up into the air which Marth is fine with due to his disjoint. Plus, the move seems to give enough of a frame advantage on 3 of its hitboxes that Marth can exit DB2H ending lag with no disadvantage. The hitstun will increase with percentage. By the time you enter 100% you gain an extra like 8 frames overall.

The only things that prevent this move from being useful are the needs to connect with DB1 in the first place and with the right angle to connect with DB2H. Not to mention that I am not sure if the launch is enough on fast fallers like Sheik, Fox, or Falco to even use properly. I wish I knew what bones 76, 71, and 25 were on Marth along with the offsets. oh, and the fact that the swing is upwards and can avoid low profile targets (SHEIK).
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Marth_(SSBM)/Side_special
Bone 76 is sword (tip has positive X offset, usually 4-6)
Bone 71 is elbow
Bone 25 is neck
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
The hitboxes of the up DB2 send at these angles, 90, 90, 85, 79, attributed to the same hitboxes in this image of normal DB2. So the highest priority one sends at 90, the tip sends at 90, and the hilt at 79. In general, more upwards. The difference is only a few degrees though. I didn't test it rigorously but I doubt the slightly different angles will help you. The up variation also has low KB growth and higher base knockback so it's KB doesn't change as much as other moves based on percent. This doesn't really help though.

Smash DI would certainly get the opponent out all the time.

IMO dancing blade is a bad move that should never* be used past the first hit.
That's an extremely close-minded thing to say. People frequently don't SDI the move, so it can net you tons of opportunities. Sometimes they don't even have a chance to SDI out because the first hit whiffs and the later swings are the first contact. Even if the opponent DOES SDI out, you can frequently end the DB on reaction and still get a followup.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
I’m pretty sure that I did those tests with Marth as P1, yes. I agree that being P4 has big merits against Sheik concerning followups.
I have not tested fair specifically, but from what I remember, it should work at similar percentages as uair if Sheik DIs away.
I have another question concerning the Sheik upthrow combo list. Regarding uthrow utilt combos, wouldn't away-DI result in a bigger timing window, since utilt hits earlier in front of Marth than directly above or behind? http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/f/fb/Utilt_with_text.png

I get a ton of mileage out of uthrow combos, even against good players that can jump out as best as Sheik can, and I find it works best when you've trained them to DI away on fthrows. DI away on uthrow at mid percents also lets you connect fair at a good angle to land another guaranteed fair. With the help of a low platform, a Ken combo is well within reach, we just need to know what combo pattern to go for at what percent, like whether to go for tipper fair or not, or whether to do FH double fair or do one and land before doing another.

This means there's a strong mixup to be had with uthrow and fthrow. If they catch on and see that uthrow followups are worse on neutral or toward DI, that opens them up to toward DI on fthrow, which leads to devastating SH double fair combos at low percent or tipper Fsmash at higher.

I think throw combos on Sheik deserve more study, and should be as well-memorized as fox/falco combos. Getting 35-45% off of a throw at 22-30% into good positioning and uthrow fair combo percent already feels great, and I think we can do even better, and maybe even turn the matchup around.
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
1,806
Location
Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL
Do you have any words on why or how controllers shield drop differently? Do their analog sticks and stick boxes just read differently or wear down or become less accurate or something?

I opened up a Wii U black gamecube controller and I can shield drop 100% of the time left and right when on my main controller I can do left 95% and right 20%. I've been doing it for 30 minutes and I literally haven't spot dodged 1 time yet. It's alarming lol. I can do the motion very sloppy and rough and I still get them but on any of my other controllers I'll spot dodge guaranteed.

For background I used to be very, very good at shield dropping just as good as any top player before my old controller broke a year ago and it's never been the same until now.
 
Last edited:

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Do you have any words on why or how controllers shield drop differently? Do their analog sticks and stick boxes just read differently or wear down or become less accurate or something?

I opened up a Wii U black gamecube controller and I can shield drop 100% of the time left and right when on my main controller I can do left 95% and right 20%. I've been doing it for 30 minutes and I literally haven't spot dodged 1 time yet. It's alarming lol. I can do the motion very sloppy and rough and I still get them but on any of my other controllers I'll spot dodge guaranteed.

For background I used to be very, very good at shield dropping just as good as any top player before my old controller broke a year ago and it's never been the same until now.
The control stick x/y coordinates that trigger shield drop usually overlap the SE and SW notches, but if the control stick box is rather tight, the coordinates read will be just too high at the SE and SW notches. Also, some stickboxes are not centered at [0,0] but slightly shifted, so they don’t align perfectly with the notches.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Is there any sort of trick with the control stick to simplify SDI timings? Up until now I just try to input quarter circle motions, but haven't had much success (although honestly I haven't put much time into this). I'm thinking though that there has to be a better way as lots of people seem very good at SDI'ing the first hit of Fox's uthrow.

On another note, pivot dtilt actually doesn't seem to be as difficult as many would think. I've found some really good practice methods that make it much easier to learn. Once I can get a good consistency I'll post a guide on how to learn it.
 
Last edited:

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
1,806
Location
Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL
Some people I know (like hanky panky, peach) input a very fast dash dance to get smash DI. It works well for him and has been decently consistent.

I prefer to time it. If foxes do it in a certain rhythm I can get it 70% of the time. If they do them slower usually I have a much harder time
 
Last edited:

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
165
Location
PNW
I was drawn to play Marth because of his neutral game. I am very effective at baiting out attacks, getting grabs, and starting punishes, but once I get the punish started, I have a hard time continuing combos. Against space animals, once I am out of the regrab percent range, I consistently drop punishes. Against floaties, I struggle with choosing the right grab and making combos at low percents. How did you guys improve your punish game, and what is going to be the best way for me to practice and improve my punishes?
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
Play people who make more mistakes than you do. This way you focus less on trying to win some engagement to start punishes. They will make more mistakes and give you more opportunities to start punishes.

However, remember a punish goes beyond simply hitting them only in hitstun. Denying any action they make is very much part of a much larger punish for their stock. Take your guaranteed punishes when you can. No need doing some escapeable fthrow regrab nonsense with a character if tech chase is more guaranteed. End a stock promptly if a situation can truly be actualized. If Fox gets Uthrown at 60% and Dis toward the stage ledge. Get that tipper Fsmash to send them far off stage.

Otherwise, focus on maintaining the fact that they are in a bad spot.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
20XX helps a lot for that. Especially for grab setups on spacies. Particularly I have a routine where I get the comp at around 36% and then focus on my followups to finish the combo. Lots of other scenarios for punishes can be practiced in 20XX as well, you just have to sit down and get a bit creative.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
Hi Kadano, thanks for everything, this thread rocks.

Can down-throw be used as a pseudo infinite on spacies if Marth has perfect reaction time?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
What are Marth's follow ups from forward throw against Peach depending on DI and percent?
Nothing.
(Assuming the Peach player acts as soon as he leaves hitstun.)

Can down-throw be used as a pseudo infinite on spacies if Marth has perfect reaction time?
Are you asking whether you can always keep tech-chasing from down throw? “Pseudo infinite” is not a concise term.
 

PlamZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
72
Nothing.
(Assuming the Peach player acts as soon as he leaves hitstun.)


Are you asking whether you can always keep tech-chasing from down throw? “Pseudo infinite” is not a concise term.
Yes, sorry!

Is it possible to tech chase infinitely (or at least until you throw them too far)? If yes, are there characters that have a techroll so long that they can't be tech chase in a similar way?
 

DeadPigeon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
83
I’m pretty sure that I did those tests with Marth as P1, yes. I agree that being P4 has big merits against Sheik concerning followups.
I have not tested fair specifically, but from what I remember, it should work at similar percentages as uair if Sheik DIs away.
Can you explain or link to an explanation on how port priority affects timings such as this?
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
Yes, sorry!

Is it possible to tech chase infinitely (or at least until you throw them too far)? If yes, are there characters that have a techroll so long that they can't be tech chase in a similar way?
As usual with most of these things it depends. Fox/Falco can use no tech option to slide off platforms or the stage ledge if they get the ever so right momentum to the ledge to slide off it. In which case, they platform cancel and you lost a tech chase. In this regard, you lose it if you get too close to the ledge and throw them in such a way they can DI. However, Fthrow will not knock them over at 0% or 4% I believe. Dthrow will knockdown on 0%.

So yes, you can keep tech chasing a person for quite awhile. But, the DI can become such that they can DI off into the ledge or platform. Anyway, it would be better to end the tech chasing when you can combo with other moves which are more powerful off Uthrow. Tech chasing and only getting 6% per grab + pummel is a very tedious thing to do. While Uthrow -> Utilt/Fair/Uair is like worth two more tech chases. But, I believe your tech chase ability to cover all options severally lessens by 30% as you throw them too far away.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I finally found the error in Toomai’s WDSK calculation. I used the chance to update the hitbox collection and pretty it up a bit. Download and discussion links are in the original post.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Shield drop specifics

Recently, the rumor of new smash controllers allowing for easier shield drops has spread. My goal is to analyze whether this claim is correct and, in case it is, what exactly has changed from the older controllers.

The claim: “The Wii U controllers in particular make this technique up to twice as easy. They also tend to shield drop more easily on the left side.”
There are many different ways to input a shield drop; the one that was referenced here is tilting the shield full left or right, and then quickly sliding along the octagon gate to a downward diagonal notch. ("Sung / Axe method")

First, we need to establish why these diagonal notches work at all.
For one-frame shield drops, done from a neutral shield that is not in shieldstun, only these control stick coordinates work:

After tilting the shield slightly downward (within the white area) for four frames, the smash input subsides, so the coordinates that would have triggered a spot dodge will now trigger a shield drop as well. This is true only for frames 5 and 6:



The same is true for tilting sidewards and rolling. Tilting forward or backward within the white zone will make the horizontal smash input subside, so the roll “overlay” disappears:



As you can see, the overlay that shows where the octagon gate approximately is has the border between the shield drop zone and the spot dodge zone right at the middle of its downward diagonal (mod45°) notches.
This is important when using the full tilt → slide down method (usually called “Axe shield drop method”, originally discovered by @SUNG475).

Note: It is not necessary to be in shield to disable the spot dodge and roll zones. Just holding the stick without shield does so as well. This is why "shai drops" work (further explanation and comparison here).

When you slide downwards quickly, you are more likely to end up slightly lower than at the midlde of the notch since you’re only stopped by the rim below that. This means that an unmodified “perfect” controller that has its octagon gate overlayed like in the images above, with the octagon being perfectly aligned to the values read by the controller and Melee, does not work consistently with this method. At least not if you press exactly towards the middle of the downwards diagonal notches.

However, no controller is perfect. Usually the front plate’s octagon gate is rotated ever-so-slightly clockwards. This means that downwards input on the south-east notch will be shifted downwards a bit, making you more likely to spot dodge, while the south-west notch is rotated upwards slightly, making you less likely to spot dodge.

Additionally, wear-down on the controller can remove the risk of spot-dodging if the vertical disjointed zone is larger than the horizontal one, effectively causing your potentiometer to show less extention from neutral when your control stick reaches the SE / SW notches.

I took samples of all my controllers at the southeast and southwest notches to find out whether certain colors work better than others. Since I only have ~9 controllers, these results are far from statistical significance.

Another thing to consider is the loose zone of the controller: when your control stick is in neutral position, it can have different ranges of values when not pressed at all. Ideally, you’d only have one single value range for both X and Y, but in real life most controllers have ranges of 2-6 for both X and Y. If you plug in the controller with the control stick centered in the upper part of this loose zone, you get different notch values than with the lower part. So with control sticks that have larger loose zones than about 3 values, you need to memorize the optimal position to press (and release) on the control stick before plugging it in or recalibrating.

The values have been taken from a Gamecube with Magus’ input display mod. The best values are -0.6625, -0.675 and -0.6875. Any lower than this and there is risk of spot-dodging. Any higher and you are likely to get stuck in your shield.

#|Controller notes|Stickbox type|Original color|Value left|Value right
1*|My main controller|3|JP white| -0.6625 |-0.7375
2*|New & unused|3|Smash black| -0.675 |-0.7125
3*|New & unused|3|JP white| -0.675 |-0.7
4*|Used|3|JP white| -0.675 |-0.7
5*|Used|3|Black|-0.7625|-0.75
6*|Used|2|Black| -0.6625 |-0.7
7*|Used|2|Emerald Blue|-0.6125|-0.75
8*|Used a lot|2|Black| -0.675 | -0.675
9*|Used a lot|1|Purple/Clear|-0.6375|-0.7375
10*|Used a lot|Unknown|Black|-0.7875| -0.675
11*|BigBen third party|Unknown|White|-0.95|-0.6125
12*|GarrR submission (before modding)|3|JP White| -0.675 | -0.6875
13*|ShrieK submission (before modding)|3|JP White| -0.675 | -0.6875
14*|free submission controller (before modding)|3|Smash White|-0.7|-0.7
15|LL.DL controller (before modding)|3|Smash White?|-0.7|-0.7
16|Tafokints controller (before modding)|3|Smash White|-0.7125|[-0.7,-0.7125]
17|MrYaah controller(before modding)|3|Smash White|[-0.6875,-0.7|[-0.6875,-0.71]
18|Axe replacement controller (before modding)|3W|Smash Black| -0.675 |-0.7
19|Axe replacement controller (T3B)|3B|Smash Black|-0.71|-0.7
20|Sergio controller (before modding)|3W|JP White|-0.7|-0.7
21|Sergio controller (T3B)|3B|JP White|[-0.6875,-0.7]|-0.7
22|BootyBlast controller (before modding)|3W|JP White|-0.72|-0.73
23|BootyBlast controller (T3B)|3B|JP White|-0.7|-0.71
24|Kounotori #1 controller (before modding)|3W|Clear|-0.7|-0.7
25|Kesa controller (before modding)|3W|JP White|[-0.65,-0.66]|[-0.68,-0.71]
26|XVI controller (before modding)|3W|JP White|[-0.68,-0.7]|[-0.68,-0.7]
27|XVI controller (T3B)|3B|JP White| [-0.67,-0.68] | [-0.67,-0.68]
28|Flippy controller (before modding)|3W|JP White| [-0.66,-0.67] |-0.7
29|Flippy controller (T3B)|3B|JP White| [-0.67,-0.68] |-0.71
30|Kounotori #2 controller (before modding)|3W|Clear| [-0.67,-0.68] |-0.72
31|Kounotori #2 controller|3B|Clear|-0.7|[-0.68,-0.7]
32|Kounotori #3 controller|3W|Clear| [-0.67,-0.68] |[-0.7,-0.72]
33|Kounotori #3 controller|3B|Clear|-0.7|-0.7
34|Kounotori #4 controller|3W|Clear|-0.7|-0.7,-0.71]
35|Kounotori #4 controller|3B|Clear|[-0.71,-0.72]|-0.73
36|Commission 37|3W|Smash White|[-0.67,-0.7]|[-0.7,-0.71]
37|Commission 37|3B|Smash White| [-0.66,-0.67] |[-0.68,-0.7]
38|Commission 38|3W|JP White| -0.67 |[-0.68,-0.7]
39|Commission 38|3B|JP White| -0.67 |[-0.7,-0.71]
40|Commission 39|3W|Smash Black| [-0.66,-0.67] |[-0.68,-0.7]
41|Commission 40|3W|Smash White| -0.67 |-0.71
42|Commission 40|3B|Smash White| -0.67 |-0.7
43|Commission 41|3W|Smash White| [-0.66,-0.67] |-0.73
44|Commission 41|3B|Smash White| -0.67 |-0.72
45|Forte2 (commission 44)|3W|Smash White| -0.67 |-0.71
46|Forte2 (commission 44)|3B|Smash White| [-0.66,-0.67] |-0.71
45|AZ Neon (commission 45)|3W|JP White|-0.7|-0.72
46|AZ Neon (commission 45)|3B|JP White|[-0.68,-0.7]|[-0.68,-0.7]
47|AEON1 (commission 46)|3W|Smash White| -0.68 |-0.72
48|AEON2 (commission 47)|3W|Smash White|-0.7|-0.7
49|Reno (commission 48)|3W|Smash White| [-0.66,-0.67] |-0.7
50|Reno (commission 48)|3B|Smash White| -0.67 |-0.71
51|JarJarBinks (commission 49)|3W|Smash White|[-0.68,-0.7]|-0.7
52|Jeezus (commission 50)|3W|JP White| -0.68 |-0.71
53|Jeezus (commission 50)|3B|JP White| -0.67 |-0.7
54|Windrose (commission 51)|3W|Smash White|[-0.68,-0.7]|[-0.71,-0.72]
55|Windrose (commission 51)|3B|Smash White| [-0.66,-0.68] |[-0.68,-0.71]
56|Low5 (commission 52)|3W|Smash White|-0.71| -0.68
57|Low5 (commission 52)|3B|Smash White|[-0.7,-0.71]|[-0.7,-0.71]
58|loci (commission 53)|3W|Smash Black|[-0.68,-0.71]|[-0.71,-0.72]
59|whatwhatwhatwhat (commission 54)|3W|Smash Black| [-0.66,-0.68] |[-0.72,-0.73]
60|whatwhatwhatwhat (commission 54)|3B|Smash Black| [-0.66,-0.67] |[-0.72,-0.73]



*For controllers 1-14, I haven’t been as thorough and critical with the value reading as with 15 and onward, since I didn’t know some stuff I figured out later back then. So everything from 15 on is more reliable, and includes worst-case values.
At some point I stopped listing the last two decimal places to save space, in case you wonder.

As you can see, one of the best results was produced by an old black controller that doesn’t even have the same stickbox type as the new Smash logo controllers. Thus, I don’t think the initial statement is true. If I was used to play with controller #8 and did shield drops with the Axe method to both the left and the right, switching to a Smash logo controller would likely impact my ability to do them to the right, so it wouldn’t be twice as good, but rather half as good.

On the other hand, it’s very well possible that the new Smash logo controllers have less variance in their left notch values. Of all type 2 controllers I have, only one was that good, so you can’t expect a random type 2 controller to reach that consistency. (By the way, I also tested whether shield drops were really as easy as expected with it, and well, they are.)

In case you have a controller that has sub-par shield drop ability, measure its notch values with Magus’ input display. If one of them is within the good range (-0.6625 to -0.6875), you just need to work on your execution. If it’s outside this range, you can save up the money for a new controller by doing a notch mod (basically, take a file and remove a very small bit of the octagon gate to shift the range at notch point slightly) instead.

Verdict: I only have one sample of smash 4 controllers at hand right now, and that one is not considerably better than others, and even worse than an older black controller (for shield dropping with the “Axe method”, that is).

Follow-up video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUq17FNSucw
Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3hc2d9/melee_mechanics_shield_drop_notches_develop_mode/

Insightful comment by Magus: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme...nics_shield_drop_notches_develop_mode/cu6uiop
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom