Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

I'm sure @ ZoSo knows how hitlag and DI work, it's just that SDI on Fox's uair as Marth depends on much more factors than I mentioned in my videos yet. Throw DI, percent, Fox's amount of dash frames, his jump direction and orientation, whether he does fjua or djua, when exactly he starts his uair and where he drifts to during his jump.

I haven't researched this yet, but I'm sure it'll take quite a while. Fortunately I have about 4 hours time every day this week to work on my video project, so I might get there somewhat soon.

 

[ZoSo]

That would be awesome! I meant to ask. Did you see The Wind Rises? A few people have told me that it eclipsed all of Miyazaki's other work for them. Unfortunately, I missed its run in American theatres.

 

[ZoSo]

That would be awesome! I meant to ask. Did you see The Wind Rises? A few people have told me that it eclipsed all of Miyazaki's other work for them. Unfortunately, I missed its run in American theatres.

 

[Vino]

That would be awesome! I meant to ask. Did you see The Wind Rises? A few people have told me that it eclipsed all of Miyazaki's other work for them. Unfortunately, I missed its run in American theatres.

This wasn't directed towards me, but I saw it in theaters. I wouldn't say it eclipsed his works, but it was very good and much more serious in nature.

 

[Kadano]

So I got to finish the next video yesterday, but when I came home today I found my Internet modem to be broken. D:

A new one is 230€. :S
Posting from my phone now, I won't be able to deliver for quite some time probably.

 

[tm]

So I got to finish the next video yesterday, but when I came home today I found my Internet modem to be broken. D:

A new one is 230€. :S
Posting from my phone now, I won't be able to deliver for quite some time probably.

Sorry to hear that.
Have a paypal? I'm sure some people would be willing to chip in some for your (and the community's) cause.

 

[hectohertz]

i would totally chip in for @ Kadano . anyday.

kadano, if you can only do low resolution stuff, any chance i could commision some gifs?

 

[Kadano]

That's really kind of you two, but the problem was caused solely by my own dumbness / clumsiness, so I'll pay for it by myself. I did apply for the YouTube donation button though; if it doesn't work out, I might do a Paypal comission thing if there's interest.

@ hectohertz : Resolution is not the problem. I'd rather do your requests like I've been doing my videos, if that's fine with you.

@ ZoSo : I started looking into SDI on Fox's uair and it seems single SDI is never sufficient if the Fox has good execution. At least at 0%. :/

 

[Xyzz]

Why in Odin's name do you want to buy a modem for 230 moneys? There should be perfectly serviceable ones for you below 100

 

[Kadano]

Why in Odin's name do you want to buy a modem for 230 moneys? There should be perfectly serviceable ones for you below 100

I have a 3G/LTE contract, which is way faster than DSL where I live. I need one with at least 2 LAN ports and WLAN, and HSPA+. I wasn’t able to find any cheaper ones, so I bought it from my provider today for 230€. If I happen to find one within the next 7 days, I’ll return the expensive one, but I doubt I will.

@ Xyzz It's a Huawei B890, btw. If you know a cheaper / better solution for me, please tell me!

 

[hectohertz]

That's really kind of you two, but the problem was caused solely by my own dumbness / clumsiness, so I'll pay for it by myself. I did apply for the YouTube donation button though; if it doesn't work out, I might do a Paypal comission thing if there's interest.

@ hectohertz : Resolution is not the problem. I'd rather do your requests like I've been doing my videos, if that's fine with you.

@ ZoSo : I started looking into SDI on Fox's uair and it seems single SDI is never sufficient if the Fox has good execution. At least at 0%. :/

no problem man. like i said, i'm more than happy to help with donating, as you have been an invaluable resource to my game. i would definitely sub to you on twitch

my requests:
- can i have a gif of sheik doing a shino stall (where the hitbox comes out) to a ledgedash. this should be the +11 one that is gettable with human execution. if you can do the controller overlay as well that would be gdlk. also, it would be cool to have a vid of this so that i can hear the sounds, but gif is fine.

-the other thing is (these really can just be stills), i want to see EXACTLY where sheik has to be so that she can ledge cancel (from offstage) off the side platforms of BF, Yoshis and DL with an up-b that goes fully horizontal.b. let me know if thats not clear. i'm also interested if you could explain why her ledge cancel is so hard, while i can do falco/foxes without practicing. i think its because she loses momentum once she finishes her up-b, but i'd like more rigorous / kadanous explanation



also: im definitely hype to understand more about how to SDI foxes uthrow-uair. i have the greatests success doing a "dash dance" like method when the up-air conects, something @KevinM taught me.

 

[ZoSo]

That's really kind of you two, but the problem was caused solely by my own dumbness / clumsiness, so I'll pay for it by myself. I did apply for the YouTube donation button though; if it doesn't work out, I might do a Paypal comission thing if there's interest.

@ hectohertz : Resolution is not the problem. I'd rather do your requests like I've been doing my videos, if that's fine with you.

@ ZoSo : I started looking into SDI on Fox's uair and it seems single SDI is never sufficient if the Fox has good execution. At least at 0%. :/

Not terribly surprised honestly. When I played Leffen I noticed it was extremely difficult to sdi his uairs. I wonder if there's any merit to using the c stick or employing a quarter circle method here? Just a guess.

 

[DJLO]

snip

Kadano, you are an inspiration man. have my babies

 

[Tee ay eye]

what reaches lower, marth's fsmash or dtilt?

 

[Kadano]

what reaches lower, marth's fsmash or dtilt?

fsmash. http://smashboards.com/posts/16623413

 

[hectohertz]

@SwiftBass had asked for an image/gif of marths counter when the counter is activated (he wants to see the hitbox for the actual "attack" part of it)

 

[Kadano]

@SwiftBass had asked for an image/gif of marths counter when the counter is activated (he wants to see the hitbox for the actual "attack" part of it)

@SwiftBass http://smashboards.com/posts/16589483

 

[Strong Badam]

How much do you need, Kadano, if you still need stuff?

 

[Kadano]

How much do you need, Kadano, if you still need stuff?

What are you referring to?

 

[Strong Badam]

So I got to finish the next video yesterday, but when I came home today I found my Internet modem to be broken. D:

A new one is 230€. :S
Posting from my phone now, I won't be able to deliver for quite some time probably.

This thing.

 

[Kadano]

This thing.

Oh, no it’s fine, thank you very much. I already bought it and could afford it by myself. I mostly mentioned it so others knew what was going on (and could link me their cheaper / better solution if they knew one).

 

[Strong Badam]

Alrighty. If you're ever in a bind, let me know.

 

[DJLO]

hey @ Kadano could you help answer someone's question on reddit? http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2cx36o/aerial_interrupt/cjjylac

 

[AceDudeyeah]

@pewpewyou recently tweeted about Shield Breaker doing shield damage equal to 50% of max health unless fully charged. Of course it’s a bit more complicated than that:

Max shield health is 60.

Can I get a picture of how large a shield looks like when Sheik, Falco, Fox, Falcon, Jigglypuff, Marth, and Ganon look like when they're shields are at 34 health?

 

[Mahie]

Yes, there must be times when Shield Breaker becomes a great option if :

A. Their shields are depleted.
B. Their only option is to shield, dodge or get hit by the move.
C. None of their above options lead to you getting punished for using Shield Breaker.
Edit : C'. I guess it's alright to be punishable if you reckon it's worth it in risk-reward ratio.

I'd also love to have a visual example as to when exactly you can use it to break a shield.

 

[Littlebear]

@ Kadano I just cannot figure out Marth's ledge tech. It's RIDICULOUSLY easy with Fox for me, so I know I know how to do it, but with Marth I just can't. Going into training mode with the motion-sensors, I can get it maybe 10% of the time. Even going into Dolphin and doing it frame by frame doesn't yield perfect results. Is there some nuance of his up-B that I need to know to ledge tech? Do you have to sweetspot it and curl it or something? I've asked on another thread but everyone just said stuff like "You have to tech within 20 frames and then SDI when you get hit blah blah blah" I know all that stuff, just not how to do it with Marth.

 

[Kadano]

@ Littlebear no offense but please just read the beginning of post #2 in this thread.

 

[Littlebear]

@ Littlebear no offense but please just read the beginning of post #2 in this thread.

I read that as well which is why I'm very confused to why it won't work. When I wallhug I just get spiked by the motion-sensor-bomb.

edit: It's working much better now. Is hugging the wall the only way to ledge tech with him? That seems extremely limiting due to how close you have to be to the ledge horizontally.

 

[net1234]

I read that as well which is why I'm very confused to why it won't work. When I wallhug I just get spiked by the motion-sensor-bomb.

edit: It's working much better now. Is hugging the wall the only way to ledge tech with him? That seems extremely limiting due to how close you have to be to the ledge horizontally.

u can sdi really hard

 

[Kadano]

I read that as well which is why I'm very confused to why it won't work. When I wallhug I just get spiked by the motion-sensor-bomb.

edit: It's working much better now. Is hugging the wall the only way to ledge tech with him? That seems extremely limiting due to how close you have to be to the ledge horizontally.

The paragraph below the .gif explains what you need to do depending on how close you are to the wall horizontally. You always need SDI, ASDI alone is never sufficient (but that’s implied in said paragraph).

I’ll create a video on it soon.

 

[Mahie]

Let's assume that I'm using DB1 and my opponent shields it. What are my options from there?

I guess I can go for something à la Falcon's Gentleman, delaying the rest of the dance, but assuming they shield everything, can I shield stab in a way?

Basically, I want to know about the interactions between DB and a shield.

 

[Bones0]

I read that as well which is why I'm very confused to why it won't work. When I wallhug I just get spiked by the motion-sensor-bomb.

edit: It's working much better now. Is hugging the wall the only way to ledge tech with him? That seems extremely limiting due to how close you have to be to the ledge horizontally.

I'm perfectly competent when it comes to teching, but when I tried the Marth vs. motion sensor training method, I couldn't get the tech either. I don't remember if it's an issue specifically with FD or all of the stages, but there's something flawed about using motion sensors with Marth. Try another item or just get a friend to attack you. If you're curling into the stage and timing L/R reasonably near your peak, it should work at most percents for most attacks.

Let's assume that I'm using DB1 and my opponent shields it. What are my options from there?

I guess I can go for something à la Falcon's Gentleman, delaying the rest of the dance, but assuming they shield everything, can I shield stab in a way?

Basically, I want to know about the interactions between DB and a shield.

The interaction goes like this:
1. You DB my shield.
2. I grab you.

 

[Mahie]

There has to be a way I can at least make grabbing harder for you.

I was wondering about how to shield stab. I usually go DB3U, DB4D, hoping I'll somehow poke through, but maybe some other steps have more funky penetration angles.

 

[tm]

Sometimes you can bait the sheildgrab with DB3D (it pulls back after the hit if you don't continue and their grab will often miss. Not sure what you can actually follow up with though as it's sort of laggy)

 

[hectohertz]

@ Kadano do you have any information on the following topics:

hitbox decay (how hitboxes do less damage over time as they are out)
lightshield stun (how shieldstun scales based on whehter you are lightshielding)

 

[Bones0]

There has to be a way I can at least make grabbing harder for you.

I was wondering about how to shield stab. I usually go DB3U, DB4D, hoping I'll somehow poke through, but maybe some other steps have more funky penetration angles.

I guess my actual point was that seems a little silly to seek out an optimal way to do something that is going to be punishable no matter what. You're so vulnerable to shield grabs, attacks OoS, rolling out, shield DI, and CCing that you can't really rely on a poke to somehow make that beneficial.

Though to be fair, I guess this thread is more about theory than practical use. Beyond doing the downward hit on 3 to bait the shield grab after, the downward hit on 4 (the sword flurry thing) to poke, or mixing up your speed/spacing, I don't think you can really do anything to ensure you get pokes. It's going to depend heavily on how much shield they have, what character they are, if they are light shielding, and how they are angling their shield. I would honestly just look at the hitbox thread and decide for yourself which swings are most likely to poke in each specific encounter.

 

[net1234]

There has to be a way I can at least make grabbing harder for you.

I was wondering about how to shield stab. I usually go DB3U, DB4D, hoping I'll somehow poke through, but maybe some other steps have more funky penetration angles.

Db4D every time works 1/3rd of the time every time. And it pokes through low pplatforms on FoD and makes people feel dumb. Psychological advantage

 

[Mahie]

I guess my actual point was that seems a little silly to seek out an optimal way to do something that is going to be punishable no matter what. You're so vulnerable to shield grabs, attacks OoS, rolling out, shield DI, and CCing that you can't really rely on a poke to somehow make that beneficial.

Though to be fair, I guess this thread is more about theory than practical use. Beyond doing the downward hit on 3 to bait the shield grab after, the downward hit on 4 (the sword flurry thing) to poke, or mixing up your speed/spacing, I don't think you can really do anything to ensure you get pokes. It's going to depend heavily on how much shield they have, what character they are, if they are light shielding, and how they are angling their shield. I would honestly just look at the hitbox thread and decide for yourself which swings are most likely to poke in each specific encounter.

I agree with that post, but I already had all of this in mind and I would have wanted more accurate, backed-with-numbers answers.

The goal is not to poke, sideB can be used to punish techchases / jumps (empty or not), and if you misstime it you could end up hitting a shield.

What next then?

It is a very practical concern.

 

[net1234]

I agree with that post, but I already had all of this in mind and I would have wanted more accurate, backed-with-numbers answers.

The goal is not to poke, sideB can be used to punish techchases / jumps (empty or not), and if you misstime it you could end up hitting a shield.

What next then?

It is a very practical concern.

Men likes to do mix up the third hit with either grab or the 3rd one. Scar said he had trouble with it. Take that with a grain of salt cuz I'm pretty sure its not real

 

[Kadano]

@ Mahie I think CF is the high tier character that’s most likely to be bad against DB, so I tested against him.

1. The best combination on his shield seems to be DB1 → DB2S → DB3S → DB4D.

2. After each of them, he can buffer a roll towards you and get a free grab. However, if your spacing is perfect, he will end up in front of you after DB1, even though visually it first seems like he will end up behind you. He needs to do a turn grab to actually grab you, so there might be some chance he misjudges his position and whiffs.

3. Captain Falcon can short hop delayed knee you after DB2S before you can escape or hit him with DB3S. If he attempts to do so, DB3U will trade with him.

4. If your spacing is perfect and Falcon’s shield is full, there won’t be any shield stabs with the aformentioned DB combination. In other cases, he might need to tilt his shield downwards on DB4D to prevent shieldstabs.

5. If your spacing is perfect, he can’t ever shieldgrab you. (Except if he can do double shield SDI on DB1, but I doubt that’s humanly possible as you would have to move the control stick from neutral to full left / right and back twice with only 1 frame for every movement.)

@everyone else: the other requests would require either too much work or willpower from me, so I won‘t do them for now, sorry. If it’s really important to you, just start using Dolphin and Melee in debug/develop mode and test stuff for yourself.