Justice for King K. Rool - and for all newcomers to be

Would you like to see King K. Rool’s nerf reversed

  • Yes

  • No

  • Yes. But only because of the precedent.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Geotryx

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#1
Boys and girls. I had a flashback to Smash 4 1.0.4 today and I want no more. King K. Rool needs to be restored to his former 1.2.1 glory so that we can set the precedent that a character with a perfectly balanced win rate will not be nerfed because of casual complaining. I love the croc but this is about Dedede and Greninja and Little Mac (smash 4) too. No more of these changes based on complaining that ruin locals for so many players. Anyways if I didn’t try I wouldn’t be honest to myself.

Thoughts please!
 
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#2
if I'm being honest, I saw no reason to nerf him when I tried some matches with him online.

however, I tend to suck against those mind-reading psychics I fight online, so while I seem to do better with other characters it's probably just me.
 

MG_3989

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#3
He shouldn’t have been nerfed, he’s a mediocre character. However his recovery was a bit silly. I really couldn’t care less either way because I play Ness who’s never had trouble with K Rool but objectively he shouldn’t have been nerfed

I didn’t play Smash 4 so I have nothing to say on that topic and honestly it’s a case by case basis
 
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Diem

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#4
He was hardly nerfed. The only changes were that his Neutral-B vacuum effect is shortened somewhat, the hitbox on his Up-B was reduced somewhat, and his down-throw bury has a shorter duration below 126%, yet it's higher above 126%. So one very situational function of one of his moves was nerfed slightly, the hitbox on his already great recovery move was nerfed a little as well, and his really dangerous down-throw bury was balanced to be less effective at lower damage, but basically a kill confirm at high damage.

Otherwise he was untouched, and I doubt his overall performance has been hindered very noticeably. No need to overreact.
 

MG_3989

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#5
He was hardly nerfed. The only changes were that his Neutral-B vacuum effect is shortened somewhat, the hitbox on his Up-B was reduced somewhat, and his down-throw bury has a shorter duration below 126%, yet it's higher above 126%. So one very situational function of one of his moves was nerfed slightly, the hitbox on his already great recovery move was nerfed a little as well, and his really dangerous down-throw bury was balanced to be less effective at lower damage, but basically a kill confirm at high damage.

Otherwise he was untouched, and I doubt his overall performance has been hindered very noticeably. No need to overreact.
Also this
 

Rocketjay8

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#6
Gannon, Bowser, and DK all got buffs in this patch. Gannon of all characters got buffed and he's the definition of a pub stomper. Bowser, an already a good character, gained new stuff. Dedede's Gordo nerf was so small that you will hardly notice the difference.
 

MG_3989

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#7
Gannon, Bowser, and DK all got buffs in this patch. Gannon of all characters got buffed and he's the definition of a pub stomper. Bowser, an already a good character, gained new stuff. Dedede's Gordo nerf was so small that you will hardly notice the difference.
It’s just Sakurai listening to the constant whining over bury and his projectiles. K Rool was already a worse character than Bowser, Ganon, DK, and probably D3 but he has one of those kits that new and low level players will continually lose to no matter how mediocre he is. It’s a shame for K Rool as a character. Thankfully they didn’t nerf his super armor and the nerfs were minor (the bury nerf trending with ZSS and Inkling and it’s not even a nerf) because that would’ve killed the character

Bet he’s still a scrub stomper and people still complain about him after these nerfs anyway
 
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Geotryx

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#8
You’re missing the main point which is. Nerfing characters based off of casual complaints vs using the objective facts will both be a bad precedent and not good for the life of the competitive game.

He was hardly nerfed. The only changes were that his Neutral-B vacuum effect is shortened somewhat, the hitbox on his Up-B was reduced somewhat, and his down-throw bury has a shorter duration below 126%, yet it's higher above 126%. So one very situational function of one of his moves was nerfed slightly, the hitbox on his already great recovery move was nerfed a little as well, and his really dangerous down-throw bury was balanced to be less effective at lower damage, but basically a kill confirm at high damage.

Otherwise he was untouched, and I doubt his overall performance has been hindered very noticeably. No need to overreact.

This is the kind of thinking that lets Nintendo do these changes. The point being casual players whining about newcomers or any mechanic they don’t like but is balanced is not a good reason for changes. This is a serious problem for the longevity of the game. This is by far the most attention smash has gotten in a long time and I think it needs to be addressed.
 

MG_3989

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#9
You’re missing the main point which is. Nerfing characters based off of casual complaints vs using the objective facts will both be a bad precedent and not good for the life of the competitive game.
I understand the point you’re trying to make. I didn’t play Smash 4 but it seems like gutting Greninja was the only one of those decisions that had any big competitive fallout (and they fixed him this game). I really really don’t think they’re gonna let complaining casual players ruin the competitive game and the patch last night reassured me of that. They didn’t nerf anyone into the ground. They gave some relevant buffs that were directly aimed at competitive play. It’s just not something I think we have to worry about
 

Uffe

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#10
It’s just Sakurai listening to the constant whining over bury and his projectiles. K Rool was already a worse character than Bowser, Ganon, DK, and probably D3 but he has one of those kits that new and low level players will continually lose to no matter how mediocre he is. It’s a shame for K Rool as a character. Thankfully they didn’t nerf his super armor and the nerfs were minor (the bury nerf trending with ZSS and Inkling and it’s not even a nerf) because that would’ve killed the character

Bet he’s still a scrub stomper and people still complain about him after these nerfs anyway
Here is my problem with the statement that King K. Rool is some newb or scrub stomper. What if a well-known player lost a set against King K. Rool? Is he suddenly a scrub or newb? How do we know you just haven't come across any good King K. Rools? I have no beef with the character regardless, I'm just getting annoyed by people saying you're a low level player, scrub, or newb if you lose against him. It's unproductive. If people have a hard time against him, why not share information on how to deal with him?
 

MG_3989

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#11
Here is my problem with the statement that King K. Rool is some newb or scrub stomper. What if a well-known player lost a set against King K. Rool? Is he suddenly a scrub or newb? How do we know you just haven't come across any good King K. Rools? I have no beef with the character regardless, I'm just getting annoyed by people saying you're a low level player, scrub, or newb if you lose against him. It's unproductive. If people have a hard time against him, why not share information on how to deal with him?
I think you missed what I was saying. I lose against him too and I know I’m not a low level player. I’ve come across good K Rools and lost to them there are even some pros who play K Rool in tourney. I’m just saying in general he’s an easy character to pick up and play and newer players have problems dealing with him base kit not even being used at an advanced level

I’m not saying you’re bad if you lose to K Rool or people who play K Rool can’t be good I’m just saying a majority of complaints came from those scenarios at those levels of play. That said these changes won’t effect K Rool in a super negative way at the highest level. If you’re good with him you’ll still be good with him and you probably won’t do any worse
 

Geotryx

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#12
Here is my problem with the statement that King K. Rool is some newb or scrub stomper. What if a well-known player lost a set against King K. Rool? Is he suddenly a scrub or newb? How do we know you just haven't come across any good King K. Rools? I have no beef with the character regardless, I'm just getting annoyed by people saying you're a low level player, scrub, or newb if you lose against him. It's unproductive. If people have a hard time against him, why not share information on how to deal with him?
I agree with you there but his comment aside the point I’m making is that this is an example of a character who isn’t by any standards even strong as far as numbers go. So it should be set in stone that whining isn’t going to determine the patch notes.
 

Uffe

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#13
I think you missed what I was saying. I lose against him too and I know I’m not a low level player. I’ve come across good K Rools and lost to them there are even some pros who play K Rool in tourney. I’m just saying in general he’s an easy character to pick up and play and newer players have problems dealing with him base kit not even being used at an advanced level

I’m not saying you’re bad if you lose to K Rool or people who play K Rool can’t be good I’m just saying a majority of complaints came from those scenarios at those levels of play. That said these changes won’t effect K Rool in a super negative way at the highest level. If you’re good with him you’ll still be good with him and you probably won’t do any worse
OK! That's a much better way of putting it.
 

Geotryx

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#14
I understand the point you’re trying to make. I didn’t play Smash 4 but it seems like gutting Greninja was the only one of those decisions that had any big competitive fallout (and they fixed him this game). I really really don’t think they’re gonna let complaining casual players ruin the competitive game and the patch last night reassured me of that. They didn’t nerf anyone into the ground. They gave some relevant buffs that were directly aimed at competitive play. It’s just not something I think we have to worry about
It’s obvious that you’re an adaptive player who learns from their experiences but I think the fact that King K Rool was even nerfed means that this is definitely still something that can happen. Snake, Peach and Daisy have objectively the best results and Snake was just straight buffed so I just think it’s important to make sure the community is heard and is hopefully all in favor that this shouldn’t happen.
 

THE SLOTH

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#15
It's unfortunate K. Rool got nerfed, but he didn't get hit as hard as say, Chrom. His nerfs were minimal and while his recovery is now a tad less safe, it's not going to kill the character's viability. It's not like K. Rool was a top tier to begin with, but if he drops any, it won't be much because of this. He also got a slight buff, as although now his down throw won't bury for as long at lower percents, it's much easier to get off his laggier, stronger moves at higher percents for easier kill confirms. Not sure if his dtilt was adjusted in the same way, but that doesn't matter too much.

That aside, I don't think there's anything to worry about. Nintendo isn't nerfing characters to the ground just because they're good against inexperienced players. An excerpt from Sakurai's recent Famitsu article on the subject (which you can find here):
As for 1-on-1 victory rates, no fighter is lower than 40% and no fighter exceeds 60%. In terms of Elite 1-on-1 matches, the character with the lowest percentage sits at 43.7%, while the character with the highest win rate is at 56.8%. There’s a noticeable difference there but considering that those percentages are for the highest and lowest of 74 fighters, overall you could say that the characters were fairly close to each other.

Elite Smash is for players who have achieved a high enough GSP through fighting online; that being said, it’s a record of particularly skilled players. So, in a way, the data will be limited by the players’ skill.

Even taking into account 1-on-1 matches outside of Elite Smash, every fighter has a win rate of somewhere between 40 and 54%, and those with a 45%-win rate comprise 90% of the total fighters.

...

Something that ended up being a little troubling to me were fighters like King K. Rool. According to a survey on Dwango’s Niconico, the consensus seemed to be that King K. Rool was a strong character – that ended up not being the case. Overall his victory rate was 51.9%, and in Elite Smash it was 48.9%.

The general consensus seems to be that King K. Rool is strong, but I imagine that there are also people that think “no fair!” when they lose to him. Looking at our records, though, I don’t really see any need to adjust him. Though, I think there’ll still be people that’ll continue to be stressed out about fighting him if I don’t mess with him any – so I think I’ll wait to hear what the adjustment team has to say.
And in the end, K. Rool was only messed with a little bit. Only the things that are a little stupid like how big his Blunderbuss suction hitbox can be or the hitbox on his recovery making it so safe were adjusted, and those options weren't at all crippled. And his down throw was buffed and nerfed in a way, as explained earlier. His super armor wasn't touched, the power of any of his attacks wasn't touched, and people who call foul and think K. Rool's a "dumb noob stomper" will still exist. And that's fine. It's unfortunate he didn't get any pure buffs, but K. Rool's doing fine, and Nintendo's not dishing out any hard nerfs against characters just because they're really good against less experienced players.
 

Geotryx

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#16
It's unfortunate K. Rool got nerfed, but he didn't get hit as hard as say, Chrom. His nerfs were minimal and while his recovery is now a tad less safe, it's not going to kill the character's viability. It's not like K. Rool was a top tier to begin with, but if he drops any, it won't be much because of this. He also got a slight buff, as although now his down throw won't bury for as long at lower percents, it's much easier to get off his laggier, stronger moves at higher percents for easier kill confirms. Not sure if his dtilt was adjusted in the same way, but that doesn't matter too much.

That aside, I don't think there's anything to worry about. Nintendo isn't nerfing characters to the ground just because they're good against inexperienced players. An excerpt from Sakurai's recent Famitsu article on the subject (which you can find here):


And in the end, K. Rool was only messed with a little bit. Only the things that are a little stupid like how big his Blunderbuss suction hitbox can be or the hitbox on his recovery making it so safe were adjusted, and those options weren't at all crippled. And his down throw was buffed and nerfed in a way, as explained earlier. His super armor wasn't touched, the power of any of his attacks wasn't touched, and people who call foul and think K. Rool's a "dumb noob stomper" will still exist. And that's fine. It's unfortunate he didn't get any pure buffs, but K. Rool's doing fine, and Nintendo's not dishing out any hard nerfs against characters just because they're really good against less experienced players.
The arguement that “it wasn’t that bad” is so absolutely baffling how you could think that a character who you yourself said “wasn’t top tier anyways” could be nerfed and your arguement for saying that it should not be reversed is that someone who has a mountain of more results was also nerfed? I have no words for this.
 

THE SLOTH

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#17
The arguement that “it wasn’t that bad” is so absolutely baffling how you could think that a character who you yourself said “wasn’t top tier anyways” could be nerfed and your arguement for saying that it should not be reversed is that someone who has a mountain of more results was also nerfed? I have no words for this.
The nerfs aren't "not that bad", they're inconsequential to the character. I think it's silly to demand these nerfs be reversed, they don't hurt the character to the point of doing something that extreme.
 

Geotryx

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#18
The nerfs aren't "not that bad", they're inconsequential to the character. I think it's silly to demand these nerfs be reversed, they don't hurt the character to the point of doing something that extreme.
You’re missing the entire point, this needs to be reversed because this was a character to have been confirmed to have a balanced win rate pre patch. This sets the precedent that we can change balance based off of whining. This is terrible for the life of the competitive scene in the long term.
 

UplifTone

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#19
I think it was strange that in terms of cutting his recovery they both snipped the hitbox and stole half of his gas. If they had only snipped the hitbox then he would be vulnerable to spikes, an effective nerf to lower how annoying the standard quickmatch K-Rool was. If they had only drained the tank then he would have less effective recovery range and be less frustrating in that same context. Either of these changes alone would have been aloe to the burns of all the players online who hated him, without really hurting the character viability.

The problem hits with both nerfs hitting together to make his previously incredible recovery now one of the worse recovery options in the game. They've made an already very well balanced character worse because the community didn't like him, and even though I wasn't a fan of the kingly oppression myself I still think it's a shame that this was the route taken.

I don't know the full extent of the vacuum changes yet, so oh well to that.

I do like the new grounded mechanics though. They're guaranteed to be kill moves at high percents and less punishing at low percents and that seems like an all around good change.
 

THE SLOTH

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#20
You’re missing the entire point, this needs to be reversed because this was a character to have been confirmed to have a balanced win rate pre patch. This sets the precedent that we can change balance based off of whining. This is terrible for the life of the competitive scene in the long term.
And he isn't really any worse from the changes. Just got rid of two over-generous hitboxes and changed the mechanics of one of his moves. If they were truly going to adjust balance due to the complaints, his super armor or the power of one of his moves would've been affected, but that's all untouched. This is only the third patch of the game so far and the game's just short of two months old, there's still plenty of time for K. Rool, other characters, and the meta to change.
I think it was strange that in terms of cutting his recovery they both snipped the hitbox and stole half of his gas...
... No they didn't? K. Rool's recovery distance didn't get nerfed any, not that I've noticed from playing him. Patch notes don't say anything about his recovery distance being changed either.
 

Geotryx

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#21
And he isn't really any worse from the changes. Just got rid of two over-generous hitboxes and changed the mechanics of one of his moves. If they were truly going to adjust balance due to the complaints, his super armor or the power of one of his moves would've been affected, but that's all untouched. This is only the third patch of the game so far and the game's just short of two months old, there's still plenty of time for K. Rool, other characters, and the meta to change.

... No they didn't? K. Rool's recovery distance didn't get nerfed any, not that I've noticed from playing him. Patch notes don't say anything about his recovery distance being changed either.
So in the original post you said that “it is unfortunate that King K Rool was nerfed” so you agree that he didn’t need a nerf

I also disagree that the hitbox was over generous I think that was the only reason an otherwise easily abused recovery worked at all.

But you defeated yourself when you admited the changes were unnecessary, I also disagree that they’re inconsequential since buffing other characters would inherently bring down the win rate of others that didn’t share the wealth. This only furthers the gap.

Nerfing a character that does not need nerfs because it pleases others is not okay.
 

THE SLOTH

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#22
So in the original post you said that “it is unfortunate that King K Rool was nerfed” so you agree that he didn’t need a nerf

I also disagree that the hitbox was over generous I think that was the only reason an otherwise easily abused recovery worked at all.

But you defeated yourself when you admited the changes were unnecessary, I also disagree that they’re inconsequential since buffing other characters would inherently bring down the win rate of others that didn’t share the wealth. This only furthers the gap.

Nerfing a character that does not need nerfs because it pleases others is not okay.
Let me try to rephrase this. Yes, I agree K. Rool didn't need a nerf. We both agree on that. K. Rool got nerfed... but those nerfs really don't hurt him that much. K. Rool still has a hitbox protecting him going up, it just means he needs to be smarter about playing offstage so it can't be easily played around. And he can still be hit from the side, nothing new there. Are the changes unnecessary? Yes, I agree with you there. But what's done is done, and K. Rool isn't any worse because of them. And again, he gets the trade off of kill confirms at higher percents with his down throw. Other characters got buffs (and nerfs) that I feel were really unnecessary, but we're talking about K. Rool here.

The changes aren't as devastating as you seem to think they are, and Nintendo's not going to significantly nerf characters because they're annoying to play against. Second only to K. Rool complaints are complaints about the Belmonts, and they weren't even touched this patch. I don't think you need to worry too much about characters getting nerfed over complaints. If we're six months in and there's a noticeable pattern of this or that character getting nerfed just because people are complaining about them, and they keep dropping from mid tier to low tier? Yes, then I think there's a cause for alarm to the effect that's having on the meta. But now's too early, the community doesn't even have a unified tier list yet. I think we need to wait and see how the buffs and nerfs are dealt out over a longer period of time before we get up in arms over this.
 
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Diem

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#23
This is the kind of thinking that lets Nintendo do these changes. The point being casual players whining about newcomers or any mechanic they don’t like but is balanced is not a good reason for changes. This is a serious problem for the longevity of the game. This is by far the most attention smash has gotten in a long time and I think it needs to be addressed.
No, this is the kind of thinking that analyzes the changes and evaluates their significance, rather than just complain without considering what was actually affected and how.

If you've read Sakurai's most recent Famitsu column, he stated that the adjustment team is operating in the opposite way of how you think they are. Sakurai and the team heard all the complaints about how K. Rool is "too good," but they have the actual online performance data, and they found that he wasn't winning significantly more or less than any other character. So they understand that the vocal consensus of how good or bad a character is doesn't always line up with the actual statistics.

Which is why the nerfs that K. Rool received aren't anything major. They're very small and circumstantial, instead of huge and general. It's not like he had any moves decreased in damage or knockback, or become slower or laggier. The hitbox on his already excellent recovery was reduced a little--not the end of the world. The vacuum for his Neutral B is slightly less effective--not the end of the world. His down-throw no longer buries opponents so severely if they're below 126%, but now it's even more severe if they're above 126%--I'd consider this to be more balanced, as it makes getting grabbed by him above that percent almost guaranteed death, but you can't just use it casually below that.

You're comparing these changes to Smash 4's 1.0.4 patch, but this is nothing like that. Most of the changes to characters were buffs improving their ability to grab the ledge after some aerial attacks. And most changes that weren't that were individual buffs to characters. Overall, the changes are all very few and minor, too, as opposed to sweeping changes to a character's effectiveness (outside of Mii Brawler, who got a bunch of buffs).

Only three of K. Rool's moves were touched, slightly. Everything else is the same. Unless those three changes have somehow crippled his viability, I don't see any reason to be so outraged.

Now, if the next patch includes more severe nerfs to K. Rool, then you'd have more justification to complain. But so far, Ultimate is seeming to be the most balanced Smash game in the series, and this patch hasn't done anything to damage that. I think the longevity of the game is going to be fine.
 
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Geotryx

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#24
W
No, this is the kind of thinking that analyzes the changes and evaluates their significance, rather than just complain without considering what was actually affected and how.

If you've read Sakurai's most recent Famitsu column, he stated that the adjustment team is operating in the opposite way of how you think they are. Sakurai and the team heard all the complaints about how K. Rool is "too good," but they have the actual online performance data, and they found that he wasn't winning significantly more or less than any other character. So they understand that the vocal consensus of how good or bad a character is doesn't always line up with the actual statistics.

Which is why the nerfs that K. Rool received aren't anything major. They're very small and circumstantial, instead of huge and general. It's not like he had any moves decreased in damage or knockback, or become slower or laggier. The hitbox on his already excellent recovery was reduced a little--not the end of the world. The vacuum for his Neutral B is slightly less effective--not the end of the world. His down-throw no longer buries opponents so severely if they're below 126%, but now it's even more severe if they're above 126%--I'd consider this to be more balanced, as it makes getting grabbed by him above that percent almost guaranteed death, but you can't just use it casually below that.

You're comparing these changes to Smash 4's 1.0.4 patch, but this is nothing like that. Most of the changes to characters were buffs improving their ability to grab the ledge after some aerial attacks. And most changes that weren't that were individual buffs to characters. Overall, the changes are all very few and minor, too, as opposed to sweeping changes to a character's effectiveness (outside of Mii Brawler, who got a bunch of buffs).

Only three of K. Rool's moves were touched, slightly. Everything else is the same. Unless those three changes have somehow crippled his viability, I don't see any reason to be so outraged.

Now, if the next patch includes more severe nerfs to K. Rool, then you'd have more justification to complain. But so far, Ultimate is seeming to be the most balanced Smash game in the series, and this patch hasn't done anything to damage that. I think the longevity of the game is going to be fine.
You’re using the arguement that because YOU think that this is inconsequential that it isn’t a problem. That isn’t the point. The point is that we have a cold hard example of a character that was perfectly balanced by the numbers being knocked down a peg for unfounded reasons. This can’t happen at all in the long term and I think it would benefit us as a community to squash it now.
 
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#25
I think it was strange that in terms of cutting his recovery they both snipped the hitbox and stole half of his gas. If they had only snipped the hitbox then he would be vulnerable to spikes, an effective nerf to lower how annoying the standard quickmatch K-Rool was. If they had only drained the tank then he would have less effective recovery range and be less frustrating in that same context. Either of these changes alone would have been aloe to the burns of all the players online who hated him, without really hurting the character viability.

The problem hits with both nerfs hitting together to make his previously incredible recovery now one of the worse recovery options in the game.
What the hell...

Where did you hear this "his recovery range got nerf" or, as you say, they stole half of his gas.

This is objectively false and you are either mistaken or someone told you incorrect information. Please stop spread this as it is wrong and paints a picture of a situation that does not exist.
 

Dsull

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#26
seriously im curious where that came from.
Even people locally are believing his recovery duration got nerfed. No such thing happened....

The only difference i notice at all post-patch is i've actually been spiked through the kopter from time to time instead of "LAWL U CANT HIT ME!!" my way to the ledge.
 

THE SLOTH

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#27
seriously im curious where that came from.
Even people locally are believing his recovery duration got nerfed. No such thing happened....

The only difference i notice at all post-patch is i've actually been spiked through the kopter from time to time instead of "LAWL U CANT HIT ME!!" my way to the ledge.
My best guess is that it's a case of Telephone, where one person relayed the patch changes to someone else who didn't actually look at the patch list, and information got misinterpreted along the way. Something or another like that.
 

S_B

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Location
NH, Discord: SB#6077
Switch FC
SW 5369-1969-6280
#28
KKR had already all but vanished from all of the tourney channels I watch long before these nerfs.

And his recovery was still insanely exploitable if you hit him from the side instead.

Hoping they buff him soon, maybe make the suction come out faster or make pressing and holding start suction without the cannonball and double tapping B and holding the second time fire it and then begin suction after.
 
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