Jigglypuff-Wario MU export: Redone.

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#1
My brother plays with wario, and he owns me. Mainly cause hes just good at the game and has been since melee. Some moves ive found good against wario are:

short hop dair to get him off his bike.
Pound his chomp it keeps you safe from him and you still get in the hit. i usualy follow that with a Uair.
(for most matchups) otherwise with wario, he always chomps a rollout so aim for his back.
Bouncing tires is good for takin out roll-out.
Basicly rollout is risky in this MU, I wouldn't suggest it unless he's falling from his recovery maybe.

If your wario's campy, stay below him.
His uair is a good kill move.
Maybe a rising bair to WoP him, if you're off the side aerial fighting.
I'm no good at rest, not sure the most effective way to kill him with it.
If anyone knows the priority of our aerials vs his, tell me.
If not I'll go play with it against him.

Pound beating Bite is pretty important to know, as it's the only thing we have that beats it. Other than that, this is kind of a fun matchup, but kinda sad, because Wario doesn't really have anything that makes him **** us - he just outclasses us in pretty much everything. The most notable trait is vertical mobility - his ability to travel vertically is what lets him run around us.
Wario is easy to hit when he does his WAH WAH WYAHHH attak! Make use of dis!
Man, wario is so annoying to fight against. Mainly because you can't be aggro at all, and even worse it's hard to camp. It's basically a ditto match, except your opponent has better aerial mobility, he's harder to kill, and kills alot easier. I'm pretty sure The Waft kills at like, 40-60. Someone can double check that for me though. At the right moment, max knockback that moves obnoxious, and will wreck shield.

Wario's air dodge is the only useful air dodge in the game, because it's so long. Wario can out air-camp jigglypuff without a doubt. The only thing i really see as an option is using retreating aerials from the side. Nothing from the top or you'll get the clap. The bike pretty much can be avoided. Just short hop F/B/nair. Just don't be stupid and try to rollout. -.- The only time i see Rollout being useful is for punishing Wario when he grabs his bike and trys to throw it. That bike's damn heavy.

Pound is useful because it gives you a way to approach when wario is extending hurtboxes. Main kill moves that i can see are Fair, DACUS if you're lucky and catch Wario doing a stupid misplaced airdodge, Utilt if wario's stupid, and Dash attack. Obviously rest.... but lets leave that alone.

Bite is hard to get past, but i'm glad that pound beats it. Rollout should NEVER hit due to bite, or any other OOS options. Don't use smashes unless it's a dacus. Wario's Dair will mess you up. Wario's options beat all our options. We can't approach from the top, bottom, and his Fair outspaces ours.
Lol what kind of matchup is that.
Fighting Wario as Jiggs is like Mink said fighting an upgraded version of yourself.
Wario has kill moves (with super armor and/or disjointed range), top class damage racking ability, excellent recovery both vertically AND horizontally, best aerial acceleration in the game and some moves that say "**** you" to your spacing (namely Dair, Uair, Nair and neutral B). Also he can set up some items for nasty combos.

If I had to give some tips :
-fight him horizontally, where his range lacks the most,
-keep an eye on the timer, the fart can kill from 1min30 of charge,
-if he lets his bike somewhere on the stage DON'T EVER LET HIM GET IT BACK. Seriously the bike has no timer so it can stay on the stage forever, hence forever nerfing his recovery (at least until his next death).
-if he ever goes near his bike go grab him,
-know how to use tires against him, also know that if a tire hits a shield or clanks with a hitbox it'll disappear.

That's it, have fun for this horrible matchup where you can't even use your OOS goodness.
I'll be totally honest, this matchup is damn near hopeless for jiggs.

I main Wario and secondary Jiggs. Jiggs biggest strength is horizontal spacing in the air, unfortunately Wario can space in the air in all directions, Jiggs' biggest strength becomes almost useless against Wario. he kills waaay faster and gets killed waaay slower. Jiggs can gimp Wario much better than Wario can gimp jiggs though, so I guess thats one area in which Jiggs shines. If any smart jiggs can land a dsmash on Wario, that should end the stock for Wario. Follow him offstage and hit him right as soon as he pulls out the bike. Jiggs has the second best offstage presence in the game IMO (after MK obviously). just nair and fair your way to victory when Wario is offstage.

Good lord please dont go for rests in this matchup. you will eat a full waft or a charged fsmash.
At max power, a half waft will kill jiggs from the centre of FD at around 40% maybe 50% with DI.

Jiggs can't even exploit Wario's biggest disadvantage AT ALL. at most, you can grab release on the edge of the stage into fair, which isnt really worth it. you can grab release into rest, but you will certainly fall off the side and die if you do.

as someone mentioned earlier, if a bike-happy Wario leaves his bike on the stage, you should get SUPER aggressive. keep him from destroying it and dont destroy it yourself. Wario's recovery is horrible without the bike. makes him SO much easier to gimp.

The bite isnt invincible. While it will ALWAYS beat a rollout, you can stall until the active frames of the bite run out. there is enough lag at the end of a bite(when Wario closes his mouth) for Jiggs to travel about the distance of FD and hit him before he can get shield up. the rollout is really just about mindgames in this MU. just dont try to use rollout to punish his landings or h'll just land with a bite(or b-reversed bite).

I'd say this MU is 65:35 and thats being generous to Jiggs. it's probably Wario's 3rd easiest MU after Ganon and maybe Bowser and those two characters even have infinites on Wario.

you wanna play defensive in this MU bcos Wario can beat all of your offensive options. hit fairs, bairs and pounds on the top of Wario to try and poke through bite(although pound always beats it) and to avoid that insanely fast shieldgrab.


Redone: any new tricks? Post em, and I will actually include it here, unlike last time.
 
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#3
I don't know how Noobicidal feels about the matchup discussions, but as far as I know, there's no Wario export thread, so this can be it.

Pound beating Bite is pretty important to know, as it's the only thing we have that beats it. Other than that, this is kind of a fun matchup, but kinda sad, because Wario doesn't really have anything that makes him **** us - he just outclasses us in pretty much everything. The most notable trait is vertical mobility - his ability to travel vertically is what lets him run around us.
 

Noobicidal

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#4
I don't know how Noobicidal feels about the matchup discussions, but as far as I know, there's no Wario export thread, so this can be it.

Pound beating Bite is pretty important to know, as it's the only thing we have that beats it. Other than that, this is kind of a fun matchup, but kinda sad, because Wario doesn't really have anything that makes him **** us - he just outclasses us in pretty much everything. The most notable trait is vertical mobility - his ability to travel vertically is what lets him run around us.
I don't mind this being the export thread. I'll just have the one summary in the compendium instead of one there and one in the OP of the export.

Feel free to continue discussing Wario here.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#6
Man, wario is so annoying to fight against. Mainly because you can't be aggro at all, and even worse it's hard to camp. It's basically a ditto match, except your opponent has better aerial mobility, he's harder to kill, and kills alot easier. I'm pretty sure The Waft kills at like, 40-60. Someone can double check that for me though. At the right moment, max knockback that moves obnoxious, and will wreck shield.

Wario's air dodge is the only useful air dodge in the game, because it's so long. Wario can out air-camp jigglypuff without a doubt. The only thing i really see as an option is using retreating aerials from the side. Nothing from the top or you'll get the clap. The bike pretty much can be avoided. Just short hop F/B/nair. Just don't be stupid and try to rollout. -.- The only time i see Rollout being useful is for punishing Wario when he grabs his bike and trys to throw it. That bike's damn heavy.

Pound is useful because it gives you a way to approach when wario is extending hurtboxes. Main kill moves that i can see are Fair, DACUS if you're lucky and catch Wario doing a stupid misplaced airdodge, Utilt if wario's stupid, and Dash attack. Obviously rest.... but lets leave that alone.

Bite is hard to get past, but i'm glad that pound beats it. Rollout should NEVER hit due to bite, or any other OOS options. Don't use smashes unless it's a dacus. Wario's Dair will mess you up. Wario's options beat all our options. We can't approach from the top, bottom, and his Fair outspaces ours.
 

EraOfGames

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#8
Fight Wario in the x-axis of the air as we out-range and beat him there. Make use of better grab range on ground (lol ground), and shield away from his grab range. What makes this MU hard is that Wario has better killing power and survivablity =\ Try to keep Fair fresh and use Rollout/dacus/fsmash to punish when you can, as you need all the kill moves as you can get. I would take him to FD, though for some reason I always do horribly against Wario on Brinstar.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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#9
Fight Wario in the x-axis of the air as we out-range and beat him there. Make use of better grab range on ground (lol ground), and shield away from his grab range. What makes this MU hard is that Wario has better killing power and survivablity =\ Try to keep Fair fresh and use Rollout/dacus/fsmash to punish when you can, as you need all the kill moves as you can get. I would take him to FD, though for some reason I always do horribly against Wario on Brinstar.
Thats because we use brinstar for our ability to shark and use our air mobility to our advantage.

Wario can do the air mobility better. And if he's in the air we can't shark him IMO.
 
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#10
You do realize that...Rollout wouldn't hit them, right?

Also, Wario MU has already been discussed:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233873

haha yeah i mean like to predict their prediction....like if he rolls AROUND you you predict the roll and turn back around.roullout works good against wario sometimes and i cant dacus and Utilts are hard because, i use a sideways wiimote.
 
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#11
haha yeah i mean like to predict their prediction....like if he rolls around you you predict the roll and turn back around.roullout works good against wario sometimes and i cant dacus and utilts are hard because, i use a sideways wiimote.
omg ju mush be a genie or sum ****! How r ju so gud omgizzlez!! Master rollou right herrree u mush be a gawd!!!!!!!!!=0000000
 

-LzR-

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#14
Why shut this one down since the old discussion is outdated. Anyways, I think all MU discussion should go to Q&A thread since we don't have enough activity.
 

Noobicidal

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#15
Why shut this one down since the old discussion is outdated. Anyways, I think all MU discussion should go to Q&A thread since we don't have enough activity.
Moving the discussions to the Q&A thread will not boost activity by any means.
 

-LzR-

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#16
Did I say so? I mean there is so little activity that we don't need to separate discussions to different threads.
 

Noobicidal

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#18
Did I say so? I mean there is so little activity that we don't need to separate discussions to different threads.
Separate threads keep discussions concise and easy to navigate through, which gives the reader a break, and makes my job a lot easier. The Q&A thread already has a purpose. If you really wanted to make a radical suggestion like this, you should've at least mentioned the Compendium.

Regardless, the activity level doesn't warrant any massive change, and the amount of threads formed by this is hardly an issue.


Edit: Freakin' ninjas, man.
 
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#20
If you plan to play Brawl at even a slightly competitive level, then this isn't the controller for you.

GCC is obviously best.
Stopped reading there. The GCC is the most widely used controller yes, but it is down to personal preference as to which controller you plan to use. I personally use the CCPro because I find the GCC's A button to be too large and the B button to be too small.
 
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#21
If you plan to play Brawl at even a slightly competitive level, then this isn't the controller for you.

GCC is obviously best. I use WiiChuck at tourneys just to prove that it's a somewhat viable alternate to GCC, but an alone Wiimote sucks. Horribly.
Well i use GCC alot cause i like to DACUS and Utilt. i dont like nun chuck cause i dont like the feel of using 2 controllers...i dunno. and i like that the wii mote is wireless but i like that GCC can DACUS easy. Especially with snake!
 

Blissard

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#22
Stopped reading there.
I refer to anything that can/has cstick to GCC, since I don't actually know all of the controller types :c Our ignorance is bliss.

A lone Wiimote can't do...anything, lol. WiiChuck can pretty much do everything that doesn't require bsticking.

Also Jiggs is horrid against Wario.
 
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#23
screw you olimar. haha im kidding. a lone wiimote can do anyything that wii chuck can do? Killer jawz was right its personal prefrence. only upside to GCC is DACUS other than that they are all the same.
 

Blissard

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#25
WiiMote can't smash DI. You can't Bstick. You can't control your aerial momentum while doing an aerial. Meaning you can't do a retreating aerial, a falling uair/uspecial, dair without ff'ing, etc. You can't jump without using tap jump, which is really really bad, lol.

Don't get me started on AT's...

EDIT: LOL I got ninja'd by a 4 minute margin.
 

teluoborg

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#26
Lol what kind of matchup is that.
Fighting Wario as Jiggs is like Mink said fighting an upgraded version of yourself.
Wario has kill moves (with super armor and/or disjointed range), top class damage racking ability, excellent recovery both vertically AND horizontally, best aerial acceleration in the game and some moves that say "**** you" to your spacing (namely Dair, Uair, Nair and neutral B). Also he can set up some items for nasty combos.

If I had to give some tips :
-fight him horizontally, where his range lacks the most,
-keep an eye on the timer, the fart can kill from 1min30 of charge,
-if he lets his bike somewhere on the stage DON'T EVER LET HIM GET IT BACK. Seriously the bike has no timer so it can stay on the stage forever, hence forever nerfing his recovery (at least until his next death).
-if he ever goes near his bike go grab him,
-know how to use tires against him, also know that if a tire hits a shield or clanks with a hitbox it'll disappear.

That's it, have fun for this horrible matchup where you can't even use your OOS goodness.
 
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#27
Yeah i'll remember the thing about hiding his back. Personally i like to shuffle them so i still get some air in. then grab and throw him up and like just 1 uair. on the second one they ALWAYS spot dodge and dair you.
 

*JuriHan*

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#28
This matchup is horrible. You're essentially fighting a faster, stronger, heavier, BETTER version of yourself. 30:70 in Wario's favor at least.
 
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#29
Its not THAT bad...you can space most of Wario's **** with fair and the only REAL advantage that Wario has on you is his fart/the pressure on you to kill him before he gets it fully charged. Like most of puff's match-ups, if you don't lose the lead...you'll do fine.
 

*JuriHan*

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#30
Its not THAT bad...you can space most of Wario's **** with fair and the only REAL advantage that Wario has on you is his fart/the pressure on you to kill him before he gets it fully charged. Like most of puff's match-ups, if you don't lose the lead...you'll do fine.
not at high level play... isn't that what the MU ratio is suppose to be?
 

*JuriHan*

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#32
30:70 is really harsh. Horizontally you can compete fine. It's vertically that he outmanouvers you, but even then the matchup isn't hopeless.
K. I guess I would know what im talking about since I use to be fairly close and speak with top Warios like px, dmg, malcom ect. Well fine. Go ahead and use puff thinking its not that bad against a wario who is competent. When you get the ****, don't say i didnt tell you to use a different character. :awesome:
 

-LzR-

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#33
Whatever you do, Wario will wait and punish with his superior mobility. Our biggest strength means nothing in this MU. And the longer it takes for us to kill him = free fart.

D: I don't want to play this MU!
 
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#36
To be fair horizontally is pretty sucks for puff too. Basically all we got on him is pound and sffling. He always bite rollouts or smashs or dashes. i HATE the bite. more than i hate pit. and online pikachus
 
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#38
Its probably 60:40 warios favor. He out classes puff and can kill her without much of a problem. Even with his godly recovery hes still gimpable.

Really you just cant go aggro puff and you gotta pound a lot.
 
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