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Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

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KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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KK maybe you can answer this.

Why is it surprising in any respect to see someone play their main when they absolutely want a win?

If Mango sandbagged like hell playing CF all tournament, then in the finals he wanted to play serious and went puff, how does that say anything about puff's tier ranking when there are tons of factors that went into the decision (he's comfortable with the character, he has the most experience with puff... ect)
If Mango sandbagged and got to grand finals going all Falcon, in a tournament with Mew2King, Hungrybox, Armada, Jman, Chu Dat, DaShizWiz, and Amsah, I'd be completely 100% satisfied that he is miles and miles better than anyone else on the planet, period, and be completely convinced that there is no existing competition for him in the world at all.

I don't know what goes on in Mango's head or whatever when he's playing people but it seems that his Puff is what he falls back on when he's afraid of losing, despite the immense skill he has with other characters.

I'm also unsure that experience is the leading factor at this point because he certainly uses Falco more than Puff, and has been using Falco more than her for a few years now.
 

`Jammin' Jobus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
489
puff is undoubtedly top tier.

consistent tourney dominance doesnt lie.



BUTTTTT UPSMASH!?!?!?!?!

sttfu....
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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If Mango sandbagged and got to grand finals going all Falcon, in a tournament with Mew2King, Hungrybox, Armada, Jman, Chu Dat, DaShizWiz, and Amsah, I'd be completely 100% satisfied that he is miles and miles better than anyone else on the planet, period, and be completely convinced that there is no existing competition for him in the world at all.

I don't know what goes on in Mango's head or whatever when he's playing people but it seems that his Puff is what he falls back on when he's afraid of losing, despite the immense skill he has with other characters.

I'm also unsure that experience is the leading factor at this point because he certainly uses Falco more than Puff, and has been using Falco more than her for a few years now.
i've noticed the same things, and i dont think we can actually come to any real conclusions based on this evidence.

Also, didn't mango pick up falco around the time of RoM1?
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
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Yes a little before then.

IIRC his first tech demo came out not too long after P3 though. Nobody thought the kid could be good with any other characters. He proved us wrong.

But hbox can't.

---

It also says something about the character. When a player (mango) can achieve so much with multiple characters, and truly show dominance and can continue to win... then relies on puff on certain situations. And then there's hbox, a less then exemplary puff player who can't achieve much with other characters...

That says a lot for the character. Puff is broken.
 

AprilShaw

aka Logan
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All it shows is Mango is more comfortable as Puff.

But there's a serious argument to be made on how easy she is to play. As a low/lower mid level player, I was getting ***** as characters I've been playing for years (Fox, Marth, Falco, Peach) and winning friendlies/MMs as Puff just by literally camping b-airs. I don't even go for rest lol, not good enough at it.

Obviously I'm just one bad player but I still think that argument holds merit. Also, people need to not ignore other very good puffs. Darc and Raistlin come to mind. Also some random midwest (I think?) Puff rolled through a lot of great players in pools at Pound 4.

That said though, Puff's just good and (relatively) easy to use. Broken is a huge stretch. But who knows, only the top players can say anything for the top level of play.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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IDK i consistantly see them at the top of every tournament, but i dont see other good puffs like king, sliq and darc getting high placings. Mango and Hbox just happen to play puff very well. I don't see this as any different than any other top player being exceptionally good in their time.

The only thing that puff really has going for her is the fact that she does better in tough situations than fox (mentally) because a lot of the times the tension causes you to make a risky move or lose tech skill, both are bad things with fox and aren't as dangerous with puff.
 

HT F8

Hostile Takeover
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Wobbles' wall of text a few pages back was amazing. It's absurd how Hbox is written off as HE JUST BAIRS LOL BROKEN. Mad disrespectful, Hbox is REALLY good.

Obviously these players are going to play their mains to win $$$ at a tournament. -_- "His main is better than his secondary!" isn't a valid argument... it's just obvious.

Tiers aside, Puff has gotten WAY better thanks to Mango and Hbox, and deserves to be recognized as a really ****ing good character. But broken...? Come on, stop johning. Mango and Hungry are the two best. Do you see a ton of Puffs placing well at every tourney? No. You see Mango, Hungry, and MAYBE a lesser Puff such as Darc/Raistlin/Sliq. Almost nobody plays Puff in tournament... which leads me to ask why all of you *****ing and whining about her broken-ness aren't playing her in tourney. If you're not using the almighty broken Puff in a tourney, then you're not playing to win. And if you're not playing to win, then honestly shut the **** up cause you don't belong in competitive Smash.

As for her being "top tier", hell yes she should be. ^_^ She *****. Definitely not #1 though, that's just silly... moving from like 6 to 1? -_-

Edit: Puff Main Bias FTW!<3
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
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darcs pretty good and stuff and he places reasonable wherever he's at.

plus he should've beat pp literally but a phantom rest happened.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Not many people are *****ing and whining about puff's brokenness though. This thread is about jiggs being part of the top tier. I think ManaLord is just doing what he thinks is necessary to draw some attention to this matter so that maybe the MBR will actually look into it.
 

HT F8

Hostile Takeover
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Not many people are *****ing and whining about puff's brokenness though. This thread is about jiggs being part of the top tier. I think ManaLord is just doing what he thinks is necessary to draw some attention to this matter so that maybe the MBR will actually look into it.
Yes, but it seems the thread has gone from "Jiggs should be top tier" to "Jiggs should be broken tier/#1 in the game". There's a bit of a difference.

If you want the MBR do do something, message a mod, or backroomer, or something like that.
 

KirbyKaze

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I think people are mistaking my posts for being "Jigglypuff is broken" posts, when I'm really just noting that Mango's dominance is not with every character, seeing how he has to switch to avoid losing sometimes.

I guess he can refute this if he wants and say he'll **** Hungrybox with Fox or Falco or Falcon, whatever, but he seems to wait until he's up a set in grand finals before he tries something like that. And he swapped off Falco at Genesis against Armada after he lost a set with him and got 3-stocked the first match of the second set. And when he was hungover at RoM2 he swapped off Falco and Falcon to go Puff against Kage and wound up taking a match from him (3-stocking him, actually).

Perhaps he really can dominate the tournament scene with his space animals and Puff and it truly does simply hinge on whoever he feels like playing. But I don't see the results (or matches) that really support that.
 

TheManaLord

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I think ManaLord is just doing what he thinks is necessary to draw some attention to this matter so that maybe the MBR will actually look into it.
Sadly nothing works. Ever.

MBR has been killing melee since 2007.

whatever. I've said it enough. I've said everything I could a million times over in a million topics. Now all i can do is repeat when somebody new has the same sentiments.

*shruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug*

EDIT: not entirely fault to particular members. I love you KK I am glad you are so involved and in the open, Magus too. There are many members who are genuinely great and fit the part, but as an authoritative body to help guide our community it fails hard and has been for quite some time.
 

hungrybox

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Listening to people during Pound 4 GF and reading this thread is super-encouraging.






I could go into heavy detail, but it's not going to solve anything.

Just a few quick points:

1. Fox is the best character.
2. Jigglypuff is a character in SSBM.
3. The current tier list might be wrong.
4. The current matchup chart is COMPLETELY WRONG. Especially in Jiggs's row. (assuming that the chart goes for the TOP level of play)
5. People hate me and my playstyle. Keep on going guys! I'm actually very self-conscious and I'm really sensitive to people's opinions, so the more **** I get, the more depressed I get, so I'll stop traveling eventually.
6. I don't like Mango's attitude when he plays me.
7. Anyone who says I play secondaries, they're wrong. I MESS around with those characters. I never take any match into context with them as much as I do with Jiggs.
8. I used to like this community.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I don't really see how Mango beating HBox with Fox means that much. Fox is Puff's worst matchup, and Mango is the best player in the world. Like KK said I'd like to see him do it with Falco or Falcon if Puff isn't as good as I think she is (Top 3-5 imo).

Edit: <3 HBox
 

TheManaLord

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I'm sorry hungrybox. I'm just trolling in some cases. I did say some derogatory things and I'm sure many other people have too... but some people don't realize it. I apologize and I think you're amazing and you should keep playing for sure, strive to be the best so people can strive to beat you!

For the non-troll record I don't think jiggs is the best. Falco then jiggs! :D :D :D :D :D xD XD XD raep
 

KirbyKaze

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5. People hate me and my playstyle. Keep on going guys! I'm actually very self-conscious and I'm really sensitive to people's opinions, so the more **** I get, the more depressed I get, so I'll stop traveling eventually.
tbh I wanted you or Armada to win the tournament.
 

john!

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I still agree that Puff is top tier, if not the best character, at the top level. At a lesser level of play (such as pre-2008), in my opinion she gets ***** by the other top tiers because there is very little room for error.

A CHALLENGE TO ALL PROS: pick up Jigglypuff because she's SO EASY and win more money! If you pick her up and lose then acknowledge that she is a difficult character, and if you don't pick her up then you have no johns when you lose to Mango or Hbox. If your placing improves after switching to Puff then you can rub it in my face...

Or you could secondary Ganon/Doc, because those are annoying difficult matchups for Jiggs.



EDIT: Ignore the haters Hbox, you ****.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Ganon is nowhere near a jiggs counter people!!! LOL

I see this way too much. DO NOT use Kage vs Mango as a reference. Puff is hard for Ganon.
 

Atlus8

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5. People hate me and my playstyle. Keep on going guys! I'm actually very self-conscious and I'm really sensitive to people's opinions, so the more **** I get, the more depressed I get, so I'll stop traveling eventually.
I've never hated you or disliked your play style!

2) People drastically underrate HBox and insult his playstyle without bothering to realize how good he is, or that he's basically playing Puff like M2K played Marth.

So we had a Jiggs ditto in the finals. Our two best players are Jigglypuff mains, WHAT DID YOU EXPECT.
This, this, this! People will always find a way to hate on great players: Ken, M2K, Mango and Hbox!
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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5. People hate me and my playstyle. Keep on going guys! I'm actually very self-conscious and I'm really sensitive to people's opinions, so the more **** I get, the more depressed I get, so I'll stop traveling eventually.

8. I used to like this community.
Something I hope everyone has learned don't go with the flow and hate on people it's mades them sad. Also anybody remember ww2 random hate to one thing blind to the real problem. He plays to win so if you chain throw, gimp at 20%, or camp your balls off you can't say crap about gayness to H?box(why there is a ? is because I wanted to mix it up and sometimes the little things make things better.)

No H?box is amazing I would love to play him some day maybe at the VG event in IN. like he said, but yeah his yeast is still rising so sshhhh.



But yeah use your mind not other people's minds I walk into walls because I choose to I have no idea why other people do. H?box power I nearly quit pichu after watching your combo video
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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fox may well be the best character in the game but i haven't seen anyone in the community with the endurance to play fox at the highest level possible throughout an entire tournament

jigglypuff does not require that intense physical endurance to be consistent for a 2 day tournament, at least not that i'm aware of

which is why i think she's the top contender for a #1 placement in tournament

don't forget PP won r1 vs hbox @ rom2, by like last stock last hit, and played perfectly the whole match. once you mess up you die vs jiggs.

all the top tiers have a chance @ winning tournies i just think it's really hard for fox and falco these days, particularly for fox.

hbox have a little confidence dude, nobody likes a brat

rubyiris has been trying to troll my **** for the past week lol you think i give a ****? who is that kid some nub scrub that literally everyone hates who has never placed in a tournament at all who probably has been playing the game for years and has nothing to show for it lol you prob made an easy G @ pound just count your cash buy yourself a cheeseburger and **** everybody else

take a page out of g-reg's book
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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fox may well be the best character in the game but i haven't seen anyone in the community with the endurance to play fox at the highest level possible throughout an entire tournament

jigglypuff does not require that intense physical endurance to be consistent for a 2 day tournament, at least not that i'm aware of

which is why i think she's the top contender for a #1 placement in tournament
That is a really good point... Playing Fox correctly against a top level jiggs takes a lot of effort.. both physically and mentally. Playing puff seems like a walk in the park compared to Fox, at least physically lol
 

Lovage

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fox may well be the best character in the game but i haven't seen anyone in the community with the endurance to play fox at the highest level possible throughout an entire tournament

jigglypuff does not require that intense physical endurance to be consistent for a 2 day tournament, at least not that i'm aware of

which is why i think she's the top contender for a #1 placement in tournament

don't forget PP won r1 vs hbox @ rom2, by like last stock last hit, and played perfectly the whole match. once you mess up you die vs jiggs.

all the top tiers have a chance @ winning tournies i just think it's really hard for fox and falco these days, particularly for fox.

hbox have a little confidence dude, nobody likes a brat

rubyiris has been trying to troll my **** for the past week lol you think i give a ****? who is that kid some nub scrub that literally everyone hates who has never placed in a tournament at all who probably has been playing the game for years and has nothing to show for it lol you prob made an easy G @ pound just count your cash buy yourself a cheeseburger and **** everybody else

take a page out of g-reg's book

this is a very good post about why fox is the hardest character to play at a high level

try it some time

thats why fox hasnt won since oc3
 

null55

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
3,500
right. on the Humans Playing Melee Tier list, i think Jiggs is... well. first. with Falco.
5. People hate me and my playstyle. Keep on going guys! I'm actually very self-conscious and I'm really sensitive to people's opinions, so the more **** I get, the more depressed I get, so I'll stop traveling eventually.
lol, *****, you gotta get over that ****.


@john. your sig is greater than the heavens.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
All it shows is Mango is more comfortable as Puff.

But there's a serious argument to be made on how easy she is to play. As a low/lower mid level player, I was getting ***** as characters I've been playing for years (Fox, Marth, Falco, Peach) and winning friendlies/MMs as Puff just by literally camping b-airs. I don't even go for rest lol, not good enough at it.

Obviously I'm just one bad player but I still think that argument holds merit. Also, people need to not ignore other very good puffs. Darc and Raistlin come to mind. Also some random midwest (I think?) Puff rolled through a lot of great players in pools at Pound 4.

That said though, Puff's just good and (relatively) easy to use. Broken is a huge stretch. But who knows, only the top players can say anything for the top level of play.
I broke Chu's shield in pools, and beat Forward.

And then got pooned in brackets.

I'm mediocre, but down b is top tier.
 

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,027
@hungrybox

Man up. That's the reality of a community. If you're at the top, you are going to be hated by a part of the community. Ask Ken, m2k, or mango. The truth of the matter is that you probably have a bunch of chill people that you've built some solid friendships with. It's inevitable that you won't be liked by everyone. Continue to smash and have a good time with the people you chill with.
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

Smash Ace
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691
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hates will hate, i get alot of heat with people i play with no matter how much better i am.
mslano said it best top tier should be the following in no particular order: shiek fox jigglypuff falco and marth

its really like this sheik beats marth, marth beats fox, and fox beats sheik. falco and jigglypuff do as they see fit
 
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